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Author Topic: Don't Pop The Pill If He Won't Share The Bill  (Read 20625 times)

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PyronIkari

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Re: Don't Pop The Pill If He Won't Share The Bill
« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2008, 10:32:44 PM »

Yes, it's true that there's a study for everything and its opposite, but saying that still doesn't address statistics showing only correlation and not causation.  A lot of the causation media reports of studies fabricate are highly questionable.  Comment A was meant to apply to the http://www.massteenpregnancy.org/data/international.html link.  I did read the part you're referring to, and they're doing the exact the same thing I do.  They said, "There are a variety of complex explanations for these striking differences. In particular, it seems", etc.  In other words, in that part, they're also making conjectured theories about what the numbers seem to mean.  They know the numbers show a correlation between US and teen pregnancy, teen STDs, and teen abortions, but the education part is just a conjecture and not supported by the numbers displayed.
Actually it is. If you delve deeper in to it, and you read the testimonials of kids you will learn, that the amount of sex in other countries isn't that much different than the US. The number that *IS* different is pregnancy/STDs that occur. Your theory suggests people aren't having intercourse, which actually conflicts with the correlation. You seemed to not have taken statistics classes in school. Statistics do prove things, you just need to know what you're looking for exactly.

Also, the thing is, that... you didn't read. If you did, you'd see that they've investigated reasonings and major differences in causation as well. The groups that did these surveys did more than just take the surveys. They also interviewed, and did testing on it. Their results are the conclusion they came to from said evidence. Once more, yours is just conjecture based on *their* numbers, in which they came a to a different conclusion to.

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In any case, Tony asked for international teen pregnancy stats, so I provided them.  I already said that I didn't know how he was going to use them in the context he proposed, but the US does have a higher teen pregnancy rate than most developed countries.  If Tony wants to conclude that it means the US has an abnormally high impulse for intercourse, then from the numbers on the page, it's an equally valid conclusion as the education one.  There aren't enough numbers on that page for them to conclude that it's due to education differences.
Nope, because the pregnancy rate is only half of the equation.

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Also, I already agreed with you repeatedly that the "taboo" thing is a problem, but I'm saying that the "cool" thing is also a problem too.  The media sells sex all over the place.  There's this huge glorification of sex all over the US media.  Neither the cool nor taboo attitudes educate.
The taboo syndrome only works if there's a positive reinforcement along with the negative reinforcement. It's one or the other. Your theory conflicts directly with the EU idea. In Europe sex is promoted and it's recognized as something amazing and great. Because of that, kids are more willing to be educated about it so that, they can experience it safely.

Theoretically your suggestion gives kids no desire to want to learn about it. Because it is just an act. It's not promoted as something good, so no child will want to actively know about it. They will just eventually run into sex as the opportunity occurs and they don't see a good reason not to(mostly because they won't be fully educated about it).

So basically, you're stating that your idea, that pretty much is impossible, and no country in the world will/has done, is better than an already existing idea that shows extremely good results and practice.

What's with you and impossible ideas anyways? For sex to not be promoted as a positive thing, people would basically not talk about it at all or the opposite, it would have to be talked about so much that it loses absolutely all meaning verbally. However this is impossible, because the act itself is not "normal and passable".

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Yes, there.  That suggests that "kids" are having sex not just because it "feels good" but because there are social / peer / media pressures to do it.  Proper education presents the facts and doesn't impose conclusions such as "taboo" or "cool" or what not.  There is nothing wrong with people who don't like sex.  There is nothing wrong with people who prefer masturbation, non-penetrative sex, or non-conceiving sex.  It's a normal variation in humans.  Evolution works better with genetic diversity.  Media keeps pushing this picture of it being "human" to like sex and go to great lengths to get better sex, but it's not.  US teens seem to be subconsciously internalizing bad media.
Wrong again. For something to be done as taboo, it has to have a positive respect. Kids KNOW that sex is great and feels amazing. Yet they are told not to do it. That's what makes it more appealing. They are told not to do something that they know is supposed to be one of the greatest feelings in the world.

There is nothing wrong with those kind of people. You're right. But guess what, it *IS* human to like sex. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that it's norm is wrong. If you think it's "US" teens that seem to subconsciously internalizing bad media, then what about every other country?

I've noticed it before, but I never bothered to say it. Your theory, has absolutely nothing to do with pregnancy. It has to do with teenagers having sex. You are pushing for teens not to have sex, more than to do things that are safe. And you are advocating the the "not having sex is just as good, and anyone that says otherwise is wrong.

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Now you're saying that teens are having sex to get pregnant...?  If teens knew that, would they still have as much sex as they do?  If people are saying that it's a biological drive to get pregnant, then why consider teen pregnancy to be a problem at all?  If we accept biology as a valid explanation, then it should be normal to get pregnant, and then we should fix attitudes against teen pregnancy and create an social structure in which it's fine for teens to get pregnant.  Yes, full intercourse and pregnancy are biologically coupled.  Yes, having full intercourse is biologically asking for a baby.  How many teens having sex want to get pregnant...?
OH MY GOD DAMNED GOD. HOW GOD DAMNED STUPID ARE YOU?!?!??!?!?!?!? Teens are having sex because they want to. YOU BROUGHT UP BIOLOGICAL REASONING AND STRUCTURE. And I stated, in biological reasoning and structure, it's natural for them to want to have sex.

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That is not at all relevant to anything.  Background has nothing to do with the ideas.  It doesn't matter whether a post-doc researcher or a high school student presents an idea.  Thinking background matters is an ad hominem fallacy.  I'm not facilitating the fallacy.
It's not relevant in the aspect you're trying to associate with. It's relevant in a different way.

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If you insist on believing such a thing, no, I'm not a virgin, and I double-check interesting science-related articles in everyday magazines (such as Times and Psychology Today) against the actual research data, but that's a huge long rant by itself.

Back to sex, I've experienced both genders as well as excursions with the "sexually twisted".  I did a lot of experimenting about how much of sex is physical, psychological, and emotional for me.  I've talked to people in the process of their own explorations.  Results are highly variable from person to person.
I do, because it's important. You're not a virgin, so basically my theory is right. Thanks for that.


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There's a mix of risk / reward / responsibility, rebelliousness / coolness / taboo, domination / submission / equality, closeness / separateness, physical / emotional, etc., and all that (plus the same factors in the other parties involved) feed back into the enjoyment and the decision to do it at all.  Social / media / peer pressures always factor in in some way, no matter how minor, although it does vary how much and how conscious people are of the influence.  I think it's very selfish and irresponsible for even teens to say that it just feels good and believe that consideration trumps everything else.  Proper education should include understanding of responsibility and risk too.  In an ideal world, people who are uneducated enough to think that birth control failure statistics do not apply to them should not be having sex.  Every time, people should be looking at the decision and saying, "This could be the time we become a statistic and become pregnant, but it will be worth it."  How many US teens can say that every time they have full intercourse?  (US teens also have a higher number of partners than teens in other developed countries, by the way.)  Note that this doesn't say that teens shouldn't have sex; it just says that they should understand what's involved in having sex before choosing to do so.

And I can sum this up to "it's called preference" Very little of it has to do with social/media/peer factors. Yes they influence, but it is minimal. All of the things you mention have been there since the beginning of time. All of the things you mention exist in all cultures of all different times and areas.

People like sex a specific way.

Things I'd like to note.

Not once have you ever promoted sex as a good thing.
Not once have you ever said that educating kids and allowing them to have educated sex is a good thing.

This entire discussion, all you have done is state how sex gets people pregnant, and they should have alternatives to sex instead, because it's just as good and there is no risk at all. Despite there being risks in STD transference, and realistically, it's just easier to spread a lot of STD's through oral and manual sex than it is through protected intercourse.

So I think I'm going to stop even posting, because you're not even trying to spread an idea or really accomplish anything, it looks like you're just bashing people that enjoy sex. Anyone that enjoys intercourse, no matter how safe they are seem stupid in your eyes... so I'll leave it at that.
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