The Fruit of Kaboom Bomber AKA: Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab

[Rodney_Pheonix]

Why is it that we will blow up suspected terrorists in Afghanistan at ten thousand feet up using a predator drone.... but when we have a confirmed terrorist we give him the rights and liberties of an American citizen and allow him to lawyer up?


we should have had this clown in a CIA interrogation cell and if he didn't reveal info send him over to the Egyptians for a couple months....


We could have had valuable intel on the other fifty fruit of kaboom bombers out there, but nooo. He get's a gorram lawyer... I pity the sap that got stuck with that case...

[ewu]

UUUUHHHH.....there are these cool things called rights and on US soil you are entitled to these rights regardless of whoever they are. Only after the appropriate process due can these rights be taken away.

When congress "declares" war, then we can bomb.

Its all about laws and we as an American society agree to follow them. Feel free to not and either leave or face the law.

[Rodney_Pheonix]

Hmmm... interesting, so even though Faruk isn't a U.S. Citizen he should get the rights that U.S. citizens get simply because he was on U.S. soil? Seriously what kind of logic is that? Last I checked you don't just automatically get rights for stepping onto U.S. soil. If he were an American citizen I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it, but he isn't a citizen of the U.S. or did Congress put through a bill that automatically makes anyone who sets foot inside the U.S. border a citizen without anyone knowing about it?


And quite Frankly I believe he gave up any rights he had to begin with when he tried to detonate an explosive device and kill innocent people. Men women and children. Not soldiers on a battlefield, not fervent religious extremists, but people.

I'm all for rule of law where it applies, but seriously, when it comes to religious extremism, that has no place in the civilian courts, it is a military matter.

[ewu]

A lil document that you may have heard of called the Declaration of Independence says so eloquently: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and property."

Not US citizens but MEN. Anything our justice systems does must adhere to these words in addition to the constitution and the large body of laws that govern our country. Our society has decided that only after a fair trial may these rights be taken away.

Sure you may want this man to pay and be punished, but without a fair trial where is the integrity of the system that protects you? What if Abdulmutalib was innocent? and even if he clearly wasn't, without a system that treats everybody as equals, punishment would be arbitrary and unfair. What if you were the one on trial and were innocent? Without the integrity of the system you would likely be punished for something that you didn't do.

The system is here to protect you, do you want to abolish it?

[Rodney_Pheonix]

I never said I wanted to abolish it.

By classification Faruk is an Enemy combatant, as such he has no place in the civilian courts. Hell the Trial is a foregone conclusion, where the hell are they going to find a jury that'll remotely consider him innocent?

I also read somewhere he's only being charged with one count of attempted murder.. rather than 400 someodd counts.


I also have one more question where the hell was the air marshall during all of this? I mean the passengers had to hold him down.



Something I'd also prefer more people commenting on this other than just ewu, as I'd like to know other people's opinions on this.

[ewu]

It does not matter if he is an enemy combatant or not he is still entitled to representation. There are processes that must be followed and rights that he has. Just because of the atrociousness of his crime does not mean that he is not to be treated as a human. If he is not afforded these rights, then it is just the same as a lynch mob hanging a black man for being black.

The unfortunate fact is that far too many people don't understand our justice system and work on fear and hate. Racism and injustice are rampant and people are too caught up in rage to realize that it is degrading our society and the country that has such great potential.

[Rodney_Pheonix]

Actually you're wrong, it's not comparable to a lynching of a black man because he's black. The black man at least is a U.S. citizen. Granted a lynching is a screwed up affair to begin with, however we shouldn't be spending millions to put this man through a sham of a trial that has a foregone conclusion.

He should be in a CIA interrogation cell telling us where the other fifty some-odd guys that went through the same training he did are and how to stop them not going through a Soviet style show trial.

The current administration had a golden opportunity to get hard intel on where these people were and what the direct plans were and all that, and what did they do? Squander it by allowing him a lawyer, that by the way the U.S. taxpayers have to pay for, and giving him the rights of U.S. citizens. Hell Enemy combatants are getting better treatment than the regular citizens, maybe I should just convert to radical Islam too.

[ewu]

A lynch mob charges, tries and sentences a person without allowing him to defend himself with competent representation and due process. Without a trial, Abdulmutalib is being lynched with a modern twist. Even the most violent and horrible serial murders get a trial notwithstanding the mountains of evidence against him, why does Abdulmutalib not get a trial? These are human rights and not rights only granted to citizens. ALL HUMANS are entitled these rights.

By assuming a foregone conclusion, you have already charged and tried this man, all that's left is for you to string him up....

Also, affording him a lawyer does not deprive the government from intelligence, it merely upholds the justice that this nation was founded on. I am also reasonably certain that CIA interrogators have already had a crack at him...

With a nation of narrow minded, reactionary people such as above, I am surprised that we even have any foreign dealings. I am curious how much these attitudes drive the global animosity that spawns such attacks. How much taxpayer money can we save by changing how we act globally and attack the issue at its root?

[Rodney_Pheonix]

The fact is this matter doe not belong in the civilian courts. A Military Tribunal still goes though representation however, it doesn't cost millions to take care of it.


He was caught trying to blow up the damn plane, how does that not spell out guilty to anyone with half a mind?

30 hours of interrogations is hardly enough time to get accurate information. the Fact that they said that he was "singing like a canary" means that they should not have stopped him and worked to get all the information they could get from him. Hell according to some of the reports I've read in the first 30 hours of someone talking the information they give is either falsified or half truths, simply what the captive thinks his captives want to know.


The President himself finally admitted that we are at war with terrorism thus he should be tried as an enemy combatant! Not as a god damn civilian. this could have been avoided if the Democrats had not demanded that the "suspected terrorists" held in Guantanamo be released. If that hadn't happened there's a 90% likelihood that Faruk and 50 others would not have been trained to evade airport security and be able to board flights bound for the U.S. with the express intention of detonating their ordinance and killing civilians.


And to be quite honest I'm not being reactionary, if I were being reactionary I would be saying he should have been executed the moment he was in custody and on the ground. Hell that's almost exactly what an average American captured by terrorists would get.



I also think of how much taxpayer money we could save by letting the economy work itself out... something to the tune of 2.3 trillion (The last number I saw) at least in the past year that was needlessly spent.




Do you really think that the Jihadists care that Faruk is getting a trial in a civilian court? Do you really think that showing them compassion is going to stop them from trying to kill innocent civillians who have no direct link to anything that might have pissed them off?


Fun fact the middle East has always been a room full of gunpowder and lit candles since the beginning of recorded history. It's always been a matter of time till things spilled over into the "western world" Granted we as the U.S. didn't help things by funding radical groups during the cold war to wreak havok within the Soviet Union, but the fact of the matter is, being calm and collected isn't going to cut it. Fighting fire with fire is basically the last resort.

[ewu]

I don't know about the Jihadists caring about a fair trial, but it is sad that our great country has allowed anger and rashness to cloud our judgment and have people that will toss hundreds of years of precedent out the window and enact vigilante justice. We should care about him getting a fair trial. If we don't and blindly cry for revenge, then the tenants of our very country are worthless.

For a good view on the purported fairness of the military courts, I recommended looking into Hamdan v. Rumsfeld or even reading this book.

What does not connect is why giving him a fair trial will endanger public safety......

[Liquid]

Something I'd also prefer more people commenting on this other than just ewu, as I'd like to know other people's opinions on this.

Okay, just remember that you brought this upon yourself.

*sigh* Do you know you have been arguing with an aspiring lawyer? Do you know that *you* and people like you are the reason Americans are hated and loathed around the world? Do you know that it is people like you that bring people like Umar to want to blow us up in the first place?

I mean holy crap, where I do I start here? I almost didn't even want to reply because I already know the type of person I am going to be arguing with here. (Usually your type votes Republican and watches a lot of Fox News. But, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Anyone remember Saddam? He got a trial. Even though we had declared war (under false pretenses), he got a trial. Know why? Cause that was the right thing to do.

Anyone remember Timothy McVeigh? He succeded in blowing up a Federal building with people in it (Waco, Texas.) Killed nearly a couple hundred people. At the time this was the deadliest act of terrorism, ever, within the United States. He got a trial.

Hell Enemy combatants are getting better treatment than the regular citizens, maybe I should just convert to radical Islam too.

I am assuming you have proof to back this up? Or are you just fond of talking out your ***?

30 hours of interrogations is hardly enough time to get accurate information.

Ever been interrogated by professionals for 30 hours? Didn't think so. Shut the hell up about things you know nothing about. I'm sure you'd sing like a canary in the first 0-2 hours.

Hell according to some of the reports I've read in the first 30 hours of someone talking the information they give is either falsified or half truths, simply what the captive thinks his captives want to know.

Interrogators know how to tell people are lying. They also have helpful machines that assist them (and drugs too!) Most likely anyone with the mindset to kill themselves and a bunch of other people with them, does not know how to professionally lie in the manner that they can mask their mannerisms, tells, body language, eye movements, breathing, heartbeat, sweat glands, tone of voice, drug resistance, pain toleration, etc. If the interrogators stopped after 30 hours, they were probably sure they got what they wanted. They would not want to fudge things up on this one. Especially since this case is all over the media.

The President himself finally admitted that we are at war with terrorism thus he should be tried as an enemy combatant!

Who isn't at war with terrorism? It happens everywhere. We aren't special, no matter how much we want to think we are.

This could have been avoided if the Democrats had not demanded that the "suspected terrorists" held in Guantanamo be released.

Do you even know anything about the people being held in Guantanamo? Some of those people our government just put there because we thought they could or might be a terrorist. No proof. No trials. We just put them there without due process and they have been there for 2-9 years without explaination. Being interrogated, tortured, and treated like less than human beings almost the entire time (up until the public found out the Government was ignoring the Geneva Convention articles when interrogating prisoners.)

At what point would you mentally break down and admit to being a terrorist, even though you were not? (Rhetorical question, because you have no right to answer this question without going through the same shit some of these people have.)

The Road to Guantanamo (2006) (A movie based on a true story.)
"In 2001, four Pakistani Britons, Ruhal Ahmed, Asif Iqbal and Shafiq Rasul and another friend, Monir, travel to Pakistan for a wedding and in a urge of idealism, decide to see the situation of war torn Afganistan which is being bombed by the American forces in retaliation for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Once there, with the loss of Monir in the wartime chaos, they are captured by Northern Alliance fighters. They are then handed over to the American forces, who transport them to the prison camps at the Guantanamo Bay base in Cuba. What follows is three years of relentless imprisonment, interrogations and torture to make them submit to blatantly wrong confessions to being terrorists. In the midst of this abuse, the three struggle to keep their spirits up in that face of this grave injustice."

Do you really think that showing them compassion is going to stop them from trying to kill innocent civillians who have no direct link to anything that might have pissed them off?

How would we know? We haven't tried that one yet. We just like to solve things with guns and violence and threats. OMG, why don't they love us? I mean, it's not like we used them to fight the Russians in the Cold War and then left them high and dry to their war torn country, stuck in poverty or anything. ::)

OMG, why do they keep attacking our civilian masses! Wait, hmmm.....what were the targets of all the planes on September 11th? Oh yeah! Government buildings! Not malls, bridges, landmarks, or stadiums? Holy Jesus and Moses!

[Rodney_Pheonix]

Do you know you have been arguing with an aspiring lawyer?

News to me.

Do you know that *you* and people like you are the reason Americans are hated and loathed around the world? Do you know that it is people like you that bring people like Umar to want to blow us up in the first place?

I was actually under the impression that The U.S. was being targeted more because in theory everyone is free (within the bounds of laws and reason) to do as they please, work as they please, live as they please and aren't forced into rather archaic forms of servitude. I believe it's something called the freedom to pursue happiness (originally it was property but time has eroded it to happiness) Granted the theory hardly every matches up in practice, just look at communism looks good on paper but the human element always royally screws it up.

(Usually your type votes Republican and watches a lot of Fox News. But, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I vote conservative rather than "party line and I try to pay attention to all the news sources, granted because of classes and such it's a pain to try to keep track of it all.

Anyone remember Saddam? He got a trial. Even though we had declared war (under false pretenses), he got a trial. Know why? Cause that was the right thing to do.

Anyone remember Timothy McVeigh? He succeded in blowing up a Federal building with people in it (Waco, Texas.) Killed nearly a couple hundred people. At the time this was the deadliest act of terrorism, ever, within the United States. He got a trial.

Saddamn was tried in an International Court as a war criminal. I'm a bit iffy on Iraq anyway, we shouldn't have been in there in the first place but we're in that mess so it's a moot point.

When McVeigh did that terrorism on the homefront was a somewhat new concept here in the U.S.

I am assuming you have proof to back this up? Or are you just fond of talking out your ***?

K, I don't have proof. Prisoners still apparently get better treatment here in California than the average citizen. Free healthcare, free room and board, etc etc.

Ever been interrogated by professionals for 30 hours? Didn't think so. Shut the hell up about things you know nothing about. I'm sure you'd sing like a canary in the first 0-2 hours.

A cousin of mine dunked me in a bucket for three hours straight allowing me only a couple seconds to get a breath of air before doing it again because I'd nicked a dime from him so I can imagine what it's like, at least on the waterboarding aspect anyway.

Interrogators know how to tell people are lying. They also have helpful machines that assist them (and drugs too!) Most likely anyone with the mindset to kill themselves and a bunch of other people with them, does not know how to professionally lie in the manner that they can mask their mannerisms, tells, body language, eye movements, breathing, heartbeat, sweat glands, tone of voice, drug resistance, pain toleration, etc. If the interrogators stopped after 30 hours, they were probably sure they got what they wanted. They would not want to fudge things up on this one. Especially since this case is all over the media.

I still feel it was too short in my opinion. It's only an opinion in this case.

Who isn't at war with terrorism? It happens everywhere. We aren't special, no matter how much we want to think we are.

I only stated that because the President had seemed to be refusing to refer to them as terrorists, or even mention the war or terror, and only referring to is as, I probably don't have the right wording, overseas contingency operations.

Do you even know anything about the people being held in Guantanamo? Some of those people our government just put there because we thought they could or might be a terrorist. No proof. No trials. We just put them there without due process and they have been there for 2-9 years without explaination. Being interrogated, tortured, and treated like less than human beings almost the entire time (up until the public found out the Government was ignoring the Geneva Convention articles when interrogating prisoners.)

I'm not exactly up on everything about Git'mo but from what I have read, loud music through loudspeakers and bright lighting doesn't exactly constitute as less than human treatment. Yes I do feel the dumb ****s that were being dumb ****s to the detainees should be prosecuted. However couldn't the detainees released kinda not have been the ones who went out and trained fifty people to bring explosives onto planes and blow them up?

The Road to Guantanamo (2006) (A movie based on a true story.)
"Synopsis"

Yes there have been fuckups, I'm not going to deny that. I'm willing to stake my life on it that about 90% of the people that have been detained in Guantanamo would, having not been detained, gone on their merry way to kill U.S. forces or civilians.

How would we know? We haven't tried that one yet. We just like to solve things with guns and violence and threats. OMG, why don't they love us? I mean, it's not like we used them to fight the Russians in the Cold War and then left them high and dry to their war torn country, stuck in poverty or anything. ::)

They were going to fight the Soviets anyway, also it was (Unless I missed some information somewhere) CIA ops that were under the radar that siphoned money and arms to the various groups in the area to better equip them against the CCCP.

OMG, why do they keep attacking our civilian masses! Wait, hmmm.....what were the targets of all the planes on September 11th? Oh yeah! Government buildings! Not malls, bridges, landmarks, or stadiums? Holy Jesus and Moses!

The World Trade Center was a Government building? Last I recall that's part of a separate entity.

The only Government buildings targeted were the Pentagon, hmm... A strategic point in the U.S., and presumably the White House, also a Strategic point in the U.S. Do you realize the kind of fear and pandemonium it would have created if the terrorists had succeeded in taking out the white house and doing more damage to the pentagon?  hell the North and South towers of the WTC were bad enough as that caused global repercussions.

[Liquid]

I was actually under the impression that The U.S. was being targeted more because in theory everyone is free (within the bounds of laws and reason) to do as they please, work as they please, live as they please and aren't forced into rather archaic forms of servitude.

Don't assume you know why terrorists attack us just because you heard some jerk on TV whose full of himself tell you why he thinks they hate us. To educate you a bit; one of the main reasons they hate us is for our support of Israel and the Jews. And to answer what you may be thinking; no, they do not hate the Jews just because they are Jews and are not Muslim.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-Arabs.html

You see, the U.S. meddles. We are meddlers. We like to get into other people's affairs and we are notorious for choosing sides. Sometimes we do this covertly and other times we go public. We typically and historically help the side that most benefits us (Like in Panama.)

Also for example if a country is at civil war and half of the country goes communist and the other half democracy, we typically side with the latter. (Vietnam, Korea, etc.) Typically this doesn't get us any friends.

I vote conservative rather than "party line and I try to pay attention to all the news sources, granted because of classes and such it's a pain to try to keep track of it all.

So, long story short....I was right. Good deal.

I'm a bit iffy on Iraq anyway, we shouldn't have been in there in the first place but we're in that mess so it's a moot point.

Okay good. We can agree on something.

Prisoners still apparently get better treatment here in California than the average citizen. Free healthcare, free room and board, etc etc.

They can't eat what they want. They can't leave. They can't raise a family. They can't poop in private. They can't go to the local bar and get some tail. They can't refuse to have buttsex with Bubba. We have no way to make them pay for the room. They don't want to be there. We have to provide healthcare or that would be inhumane. If it was so much better, then people would be scrambling to commit crimes just to get in.

A cousin of mine dunked me in a bucket for three hours straight allowing me only a couple seconds to get a breath of air before doing it again because I'd nicked a dime from him so I can imagine what it's like, at least on the waterboarding aspect anyway.

1.) Sounds like a great cousin. (Hopefully in jail now?)
2.) Over a dime? Seriously?
3.) How do you know three hours passed? It's not like you would have a chance to check your watch or even really think about checking time at that point.
4.) 3 hours??? That has to be a far exaggeration. I don't know of any one person that would even have the strength, willpower or drive to over power someone for over 3 hours, constantly throwing the other person's weight down, non-stop, against their will, into a bucket of water.
5.) After 10-30+ minutes I think a person would pass out or die from lack of oxygen and/or from water inhalation.
6.) A bucket? A normal sized bucket? Typically when you put something into a bucket, water flows out the top. Forcing something into the bucket makes MORE water flow out the top. Constantly forcing a large thrashing object into a bucket for even a few minutes can severly empty a bucket. Not to mention if that large object is inhaling water along the way too. Also we can take into account the fact that when your head would be pulled out it would be covered in water. This water would fall out of the bucket as it dripped off of you and most of it would probably flow down your neck and be soaked up by your clothes. Regardless, in my opinion, the bucket would not retain water for 3 hours.
7.) I call shenanigans.

I still feel it was too short in my opinion. It's only an opinion in this case.

(The second paragraph is the most interesting one, so make sure to remember that one.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
"Dating back to the Spanish Inquisition, the suffocation of bound prisoners with water has been favored because, unlike most other torture techniques, it produces no marks on the body.[29] CIA officers who have subjected themselves to the technique have lasted an average of 14 seconds before capitulating.[13]

According to at least one former CIA official, information retrieved from the waterboarding may not be reliable because a person under such duress may admit to anything, as harsh interrogation techniques lead to false confessions. "The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law", says John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.[13] It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough", said former CIA officer Bob Baer.[13]"

The World Trade Center was a Government building? Last I recall that's part of a separate entity.

The only Government buildings targeted were the Pentagon, hmm... A strategic point in the U.S., and presumably the White House, also a Strategic point in the U.S. Do you realize the kind of fear and pandemonium it would have created if the terrorists had succeeded in taking out the white house and doing more damage to the pentagon?  hell the North and South towers of the WTC were bad enough as that caused global repercussions.

Eh, okay. WTC wasn't like the White House or the Pentagon, but it was a big part of our country and a big part of the stability of our global economy, stock market, etc, which all tie into Government. (more than most other things, anyways.)

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/tenants1.html

The known targets were the WTCs, the Pentagon, and the United States Capitol building from what I read. The White House wasn't a named target that I heard. However, even if it was.... The White House is simply a large historic house. It can be rebuilt. It has been rebuilt before. But, why waste a large missile full of people on a house that has maybe only one important guy in it? (who a lot of the time isn't always home in the first place.) A guy who goes away forever in merely 4-8 years. Why not attack something that would have a bigger lasting impact on the function of our country?

[Rodney_Pheonix]

((Please excuse my grammar and out of sync thought processes for a bit, as I just returned from a trip to Death Valley (Beautiful place BTW)  and somewhat exhausted. I'll probably edit this tomorrow morning.. or afternoon after I go to classes and get the tires for my truck taken care of))

Don't assume you know why terrorists attack us just because you heard some jerk on TV whose full of himself tell you why he thinks they hate us. To educate you a bit; one of the main reasons they hate us is for our support of Israel and the Jews. And to answer what you may be thinking; no, they do not hate the Jews just because they are Jews and are not Muslim.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-Arabs.html

I understand that there's a plethora of reasons for the hate against the U.S., Israel being one of them, but that's not to say that I'm inaccurate in stating that they also have issues with Democracy and the freedoms we as U.S. Citizens enjoy. To be quite honest I'm happy to have the ability to help shape politics instead of just accepting everything that comes down from the top.

You see, the U.S. meddles. We are meddlers. We like to get into other people's affairs and we are notorious for choosing sides. Sometimes we do this covertly and other times we go public. We typically and historically help the side that most benefits us (Like in Panama.)

True, true. that's part of what makes the U.S. the U.S., imagine what would have happened had the U.S. decided to continue isolationism during the world Wars (Inaccurate term, it was more of one single war with an intermission in the middle)

Also for example if a country is at civil war and half of the country goes communist and the other half democracy, we typically side with the latter. (Vietnam, Korea, etc.) Typically this doesn't get us any friends.

And how well has communism served any country that it has been established in? It's in general a death spiral of overgrown bureaucratic growth. It looks good on paper, I'll give it that, but as a political, and economic machine it collapses in on itself due to the simple nature of humankind.

Democracy with a representative government (rather than the Greek Mobocracy) works rather well when it's done right, unfortunately the U.S. isn't exactly a shining example of Democracy (with a capitalistic economy) due to inner corruption and bloated bureaucracies.

So, long story short....I was right. Good deal.

Elaborate please.

They can't eat what they want. They can't leave. They can't raise a family. They can't poop in private. They can't go to the local bar and get some tail. They can't refuse to have buttsex with Bubba. We have no way to make them pay for the room. They don't want to be there. We have to provide healthcare or that would be inhumane. If it was so much better, then people would be scrambling to commit crimes just to get in.

I meant in general like living habitation and the stuff like that, guaranteed food, bed, shelter etc. Not everyone can be sure of that outside of prisons. Of course they can't do all those other things because they are prisoners. IE they committed crimes against citizens.

1.) Sounds like a great cousin. (Hopefully in jail now?)
2.) Over a dime? Seriously?
3.) How do you know three hours passed? It's not like you would have a chance to check your watch or even really think about checking time at that point.
4.) 3 hours??? That has to be a far exaggeration. I don't know of any one person that would even have the strength, willpower or drive to over power someone for over 3 hours, constantly throwing the other person's weight down, non-stop, against their will, into a bucket of water.
5.) After 10-30+ minutes I think a person would pass out or die from lack of oxygen and/or from water inhalation.
6.) A bucket? A normal sized bucket? Typically when you put something into a bucket, water flows out the top. Forcing something into the bucket makes MORE water flow out the top. Constantly forcing a large thrashing object into a bucket for even a few minutes can severly empty a bucket. Not to mention if that large object is inhaling water along the way too. Also we can take into account the fact that when your head would be pulled out it would be covered in water. This water would fall out of the bucket as it dripped off of you and most of it would probably flow down your neck and be soaked up by your clothes. Regardless, in my opinion, the bucket would not retain water for 3 hours.
7.) I call shenanigans.

1:Last I heard he'd moved to Australia, or fled the country to. I dunno which, I don't care which as long as he doesn't bother me.

2: Yes. He's an ass.

3: Seemed like that much time had passed by. I am not completely sure how long it actually was.

4: He's very meticulous when it comes to odd stuff. No patience for complicated stuff, but when it comes to terrorizing people he'd pull Saw-esque stuff.

5: See 3.

6:  10 gallon bucket that gets used when they washed the family "fleet" of vehicles. My Uncle has the strangest stuff at his place.

7: Call whatever you want. It happened.

(The second paragraph is the most interesting one, so make sure to remember that one.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
Wikified text

I'll get this one when I'm a bit more clear minded.

Eh, okay. WTC wasn't like the White House or the Pentagon, but it was a big part of our country and a big part of the stability of our global economy, stock market, etc, which all tie into Government. (more than most other things, anyways.)

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/tenants1.html

True it does tie in with government to a certain extent, but it's more of an attack against the economic system than the government.

The known targets were the WTCs, the Pentagon, and the United States Capitol building from what I read. The White House wasn't a named target that I heard. However, even if it was.... The White House is simply a large historic house. It can be rebuilt. It has been rebuilt before. But, why waste a large missile full of people on a house that has maybe only one important guy in it? (who a lot of the time isn't always home in the first place.) A guy who goes away forever in merely 4-8 years. Why not attack something that would have a bigger lasting impact on the function of our country?

I believe it fall into the category of the psychological factor of the thought in the mind of U.S. citizens that "they can take out the most protected man on the world" or that they hit us where they want and when they want rather than an actual military victory. Just look at Vietnam with the Tet Offensive, it was a direct military victory for the U.S. forces, however because of the media light it was spun with it ended up costing the U.S. military the war.

[ewu]

In honor of this day, I quote the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.:

It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important.

Regardless of his actions alleged or proven, Abdulmutalib should have justice. He should have every single right and liberty that our constitution and laws MANDATE he have. This includes a full trial and representation. What is the reasoning for not offering representation and trial?

So many have fought for equal justice, and part of that is treating this man and every person as an equal. By blindly damning this man, you jeopardize the integrity of our justice system and condemn each and every person innocently accused of a crime. Allow justice to do its job and save your anger for something that will not pervert society.

And isn't this getting a bit off topic with point by point replies?

[PyronIkari]

So if a person is caught doing something, the country deems illegal during times of "war" they don't need a trial?

And to be quite honest I'm not being reactionary, if I were being reactionary I would be saying he should have been executed the moment he was in custody and on the ground. Hell that's almost exactly what an average American captured by terrorists would get.

Then what are you saying? Aren't you saying that he should not have been given a trial with representation and instead just executed? Aren't you saying we should treat him, how "terrorists" would treat a US soldier?

Excuse the US for being better than that, and being fair to this man, and treating him like a human being regardless of his crimes. Excuse the US for being civil and allowing the man a chance to prove his innocence amongst his peers, instead of treating him like a dog like a some other countries would do. Instead of murdering this man like you seem to want to do.

As far as I see it, you are no better than the god damned terrorists you seem to hate.

[Rodney_Pheonix]

I never said to execute him without a trial. Hell executions are rare as it is in the U.S., I meant a military Tribunal, not some god damned show trial in the civilian courts where a matter like this has no place!


Fuck this. I'm wrong you're right. There are you happy. Just forget this damn topic. I'm sorry I even brought it up in the first place.

[Glitch]

Damn.I get here late for the party. Anyway this particular part is very wrong;

Fun fact the middle East has always been a room full of gunpowder and lit candles since the beginning of recorded history. It's always been a matter of time till things spilled over into the "western world" Granted we as the U.S. didn't help things by funding radical groups during the cold war to wreak havok within the Soviet Union, but the fact of the matter is, being calm and collected isn't going to cut it. Fighting fire with fire is basically the last resort.

Let me start off by saying the middle east pretty much was the begginning of recorded history.(The land once known as Mesopotamia as it were) The first recorded peace treaty was written by the Egyptians and Hittites(a major middle eastern power at the time).
And of course during the middles ages, most of the middle east  embraced science and tolerated christian and jewish communities while europe was ass backwards with technology and trying to eradicate non christians.
It was never "that place has always been f**ked up. Why the hell did we let them come over?"

[Mizuki]

Boy, I leave the internet alone for a couple of days to come back to a lot of action.

Also, Rodney_Pheonix, do research before you say stuff, and maybe take a basic history class before you spew dumb crap around like that. This thread makes me sick. Locked.