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[Dagger-6]

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Quote from: trooper715 on Today at 07:52:40 PM
Not sure which department is in charge of this, but...

While I am typically very big on freedom of speech, since we're a private even and we already regulate profanity on shirts in the name of good taste, I think we should consider banning Nazi symbols.  I realize what qualifies as "offensive" can be hard to pin down and there are plenty of arguments that a Soviet hammer/sickle or Imperial Japanese symbol are just as offensive to some.  However, the Nazi swatstika/eagle represents a very specifically anti-semitic message that I feel is arguably distinct from a national symbol and more in line with say, a KKK outfit.  I could go into more detailed discussion on the rationale if need be, but I'll keep it simple for now.

If people feel they need to express their desire to wear Nazi regalia, they can do so on public property, next to the religious speakers.

Just something to came to mind when my friend's initial reaction on his first visit to Fanime was "What's with all the Nazis?"
Ah... this topic caused quite a stir on the cosplay.com forums, and I will tell you in advance, you're stepping on some very thin ice with this topic. While censoring curse words and the such... censoring the swastika can be considered discrimination(yes I realize the irony) and it can become a legal issue if presented incorrectly.

First I want to state, this is *MY* opinion and not the opinion of staff. I want this in no way affiliated with staff, or in any way reflected by staff itself.

Although many people find the swastika offensive, the symbol itself is not offensive. The connotations within the symbol are self created, as the symbol originates far before nazis did. Although they changed the meaning and negative/offensive connotations were created through their actions, the symbol itself is not offensive, but personal opinions can find the symbol offensive.

Banning the swastika, is very much like banning... crucifixes, the Star of David, or numerous other "religious symbols". The JP Flag is EXTREMELY offensive to many Mainland Chinese. The Communist Viet Nam flag is extremely offensive to old southern Viet Namese(A man was actually beat to death in socal for wearing a shirt with the flag on it). While on the flipside the objects are a symbol of pride to many.

Continuing this from the "ideas and suggestions" forum.


Yeah, I think that's the big issue is finding where to draw the line. Poor taste alone is not enough to ban something.  Otherwise I would not be allowed to go running in some of the shorts I've worn (they're comfortable!).

I feel that the history of the swastika as a religious symbol is moot, since in context when coupled with SS uniforms or on the red and white armband, a reasonable person can discern that the intent is not religious in nature.

However, there is the argument that by itself, is the swatstika offensive more so than say...the hammer and sickle, imperial japanese flag, communist north vietnamese flag, etc.?  As shown by the example of the man being beaten over the communist vietnam flag, many objects can create as much controversy as a swastika, and simply creating controversy is not justification anyways, as "Brandenburg v. Ohio" showed.  If a person is merely wearing a swatstika, or more specifically Nazi attire, they are not inciting any sort of illegal activity by simply wearing it.  Many might seek to wear nazi uniform attire in the interest of historical reenactment or cosplay (very, very poor taste cosplay in my opinion, but my lone opinion can't write policy thank god)

And it is reasonable to believe that even if they yelled "death to all Jews" on the sidewalk, it is not a credible threat of immediate action anyways, so they'd just be a crackpot in a nazi uniform and perfectly within their legal rights, according to the US supreme court.

So Nazi attire by itself is not innately racist in nature, and those who wear it are not automatically promoting anti-semitic viewpoints.  Heck, this was specifically established regarding the swastika in "Nationalist Socialist Party of America V. Village of Skokie"...

=====

Next issue:

I think legally, as a private event we are allowed to limit to a degree what we allow in the actual Fanime event areas, but I'm not terribly qualified on this matter.  So since it is a legal issue, and can qualify as discrimination as you pointed out, it would certainly need a more thorough legal review if it's something that is considered. Here's my preliminary thoughts though, keeping in mind I hate law and have only had the most basic of experience with it:

Normally free speech restrictions must be "time, place, and manner" derived...basically not decided on content.  However, the situation is different for private events, even when they're held on public ground.  This was established in "Wikersham V. City of Columbia".  I can't find a good brief of this case, but the following law review covers it pretty well:

http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/lawarts/04APR06.pdf

According to the federal district court, “[a] private party has the right to prevent free speech on its property, for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason.”

So legally, as a private entity and a private event, Fanime should have legal grounds to prevent certain types of expression for interfering with its intent of creating a family friendly atmosphere.  This should be the similar to the legal rationale for them banning shirts with obscenities.

======

Okay, so now I've proposed "Nazi attire is not inherently fighting words", and "Private entities, including Fanime, can restrict the first amendment at private events"

So now we return to Pyron's point that banning the swastika is akin to banning other religious symbols or other nationalist symbols that provoke anger (communist symbols, etc.)

So is there a difference between the swastika and other religious or nationalist symbols?

For religious symbols, I again point out that there is a difference between the swastika as a religious symbol and as a political symbol, and it should be reasonably easy to discern the difference.  I feel this argument is no ground against its banning as there is a clear distinction in the use of the swastika as Nazi symbolism.

I don't want to use any grounds that the acts of the Nazis were somehow worse than other atrocities committed by other nations and somehow more deserving of a ban.

Instead, I argue that Nazi symbology is less nationalistic and nature and more representative of the organization itself.  Again, this seperates it from say, communist flags.  Nazi symbology is specific to a political party with specific anti-semitic viewpoints.  In contrast, the flag of Japan has existed long before its connotations with imperialism and militant nationalism, and is less politically tied to a specific viewpoint.  It is that rationale that would say German regular military uniforms are allowable, whereas the political SS uniforms are not.

The Vietnamese flag is a closer example since it is tied specifically to the existence of a specific political party.  To that I would argue that the Nazi symbolism is unique from abuses by communist or authoritarian rulers in that it is racial in nature, again more akin the the KKK than to communism.  Another example is the Palestinian or Israeli flag, while they may both be accused of being racist, the violence they inflict is arguably more political and territorial in nature.

Well, I could expand more on this, but it's getting late and I think you get the general idea.  Nazism is uniquely racist in nature when compared to other movements that people might find offensive and symbolism like the swastika or the SS uniform has limited historical purpose aside from specifically evoking the Nazi party.

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My personal feelings I have no issue with the Nazi cosplayers.  If you want to be offensive, then that's your right.  It's probably more from a lack of consideration on their part than any intent to be offensive anyways.  I'm just as annoyed by people constantly dragging national flags on the ground.  However, I am proposing this since the request was brought up to me by several other Fanime attendees and I can definitely understand where they're coming from.  So...discuss!

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Also, I have learned by the end of writing this, I swastika is a word that I have hardwired in my brain to misspell.  Thank god for spell check.

[PyronIkari]

The issue is that, although they can legally ban them, the ramifications are not worth it. It becomes a lawsuit if someone decides to say "They're being racist" and even if in the end Fanime is in the right, do you think the con can handle such a lawsuit?

2ndly, I don't find Nazi cosplay offensive at all, rather, I find it hilariously ironic.

Okay, think of it this way. Imagine if you were Hitler, and you set up this huge war, and you became a symbol and your entire life was dedicated to wiping out the Jews as they are inferior to the White Christian world.

Now after all that, your army, your symbols...

Are now being worn by little Asian boys and girls dawning your beloved symbol and pride... to look cool and take pictures with friends. Imagine Hitler knowing that people of all kinds of races, ages, and shapes are dawning his uniforms to pose and take pictures with people dressed up as Naruto and Sailor Moon.

Hitler must be weeping knowing that everything he did has turned so light hearted that it's a costume piece that people wear for fun.

[ice queen]

I thought some of that cosplay was to either make fun of orm may even be apart of some of the hetalia cosplayers(I saw a bit of them follow one of the germany's about.)

anyways...

One thing to also consider is that how was the swastika worn to make it offensive. In religious circles or even those who like using the different symbols of peace and equality the swastika if I remember reading right is suppose to be standing up like a + sign. Where as Hitler's swastika was tilted which now is considered extremely offensive.

[PyronIkari]

I thought some of that cosplay was to either make fun of orm may even be apart of some of the hetalia cosplayers(I saw a bit of them follow one of the germany's about.)

anyways...

One thing to also consider is that how was the swastika worn to make it offensive. In religious circles or even those who like using the different symbols of peace and equality the swastika if I remember reading right is suppose to be standing up like a + sign. Where as Hitler's swastika was tilted which now is considered extremely offensive.

It matters on various reasons and which example.  But not all of them were straight up.

Anyways, everything can be considered extremely offensive, and this is one of those things you have to be careful about because of domino affect. Let's say, ok, we ban swastikas. Now who's to say someone can't complain and say "I find the Japanese flag offensive, as I am Chinese, and the Japanese raped and pillaged my country as well as surrounding countries all through out history. I am extremely offended by this". Do we then ban that as well?

Then we make it more fun... "I'm offended by people dressing up in my countries heritage and uniforms I do not with others to bastardize my culture" "... sorry but that isn't a legitimate complaint and we're not going to ban people from doing that" "Wait, you'll ban me from wearing a swastika, which is a proud symbol of my ancestors, but you won't ban other people from bastardizing my history? So you're SINGLING OUT my history, but you won't do anything about anyone else's right to bastardize my own history? What kind of racist convention is this?"

You cannot single out a specific thing like this when it's not illegal. It causes huge ramifications. By banning something just because "You or a few others find in offensive" when it's not something based on moral decency or something over encompassing like an actual law, you're dealing with something very very dangerous.

Here's something you can try out. Instead of being offended that someone has a swastika... try being more open minded and accepting. I mean, isn't that the best thing you can do, and the opposite of what that swastika represents to you? Intolerance? Hatred? By being absolute and unaccepting of something just because of its past history, you're really(I understand it's on a much much much much smaller scale) being exactly what that symbol represents. Be better than that.

[RowanRavensong]

This is an odd subject. As I am predominantly Polish, Nazi's offend me, but I had a great grand father who was a Nazi (from the small minute german part in me- but thats a different story.) Simply, if I didnt like someones cosplay, I would not comment, and simply walk away. This includes Nazi costumes. However we do have freedom of speech and I guess if someone was asked to change, it COULD be construed as some form of discrimination, yes, but is there a loop hole somewhere? To where this could be considered politically incorrect to even wear it?

However, do we have the full story? I mean were they making fun of Nazi's? Or simply stating a political opinion?

[lonemeditater]

Are Bleach-related swastikas banned too?

[RowanRavensong]

Are Bleach-related swastikas banned too?

Well the Bleach Swastika is not tilted like the Nazi's, and if you are cosplayed Bleach I think people will understand... I think you should be good as long as you are not saying "Heil Hitler!" hahahaha.

I dont think that they are BANNED. I just think Swastikas are frowned upon. And if someone does not get Bleach you might get some odd stares. However I just checked the Costume/ Weapons Policy for you, I see NOTHING about swastikas http://www.fanime.com/costume-and-weapon-policy/.

I mean I tried to look for an email, because now you got me curious, the only email address associated with Fanime I have is this one registration@fanime.com. They MIGHT be able to help OR direct you to a person who can better answer the question. They get back quickly so you should get a difinitive answer before the Con.

[FullMetalDonut]

*Wears his flame retard suit*

The nature of this debate is just another example of how weak-willed and over-sensitive many people are. The very fact that anyone deems anything offensive is part of the problem to begin with. Set aside the ethics of whether or not a swastika is "too offensive" for just a moment and consider this: What is the psychology of a person who allows themselves to be offended in the first place by a symbol?

A swastika makes (most of) us aware of the bigotry and genocide of the Nazi party. However, that "red band with the funny-looking cross" is not literally the bigotry and genocide itself. It creates an association in our minds and to be reminded of these associations bring in many the feeling of "offense". But to act on those offenses by saying something MUST be banned shows much about the lack of will and emotional fortitude on the part of the offended and gives away their own lack of character and true respect for free speech.

Six million gassed Jews offend me. Government oppression offends me. Rampant bigotry offends me. A cosplayer acting like an idiot by shouting zeig heil! does not offend me. I'm not that week.

By the way, yes, I'm aware I said "The very fact that anyone deems anything offensive is part of the problem to begin with" and later listed what I found offensive. I think we all find each other offensive to some degree, but that's why we also learn to tolerate each other. Something the real Nazis never quite figured out. Those poor sad bastards.

...Thus Spake Zarathustra 2.0

[Ikki Yoneda]

Well the Bleach Swastika is not tilted like the Nazi's, and if you are cosplayed Bleach I think people will understand...

Manji, the protaganist from Hiroaki Samura's "Blade of the Immortal" (無限の住人) does have a tilted 'manji' on the back of his garment. When I type the Roman letters, 'manji' in the NJ Star Communicator CJK IME program, I am offered three choices, one of which is a swastika with the cross arms bent to the left.

[Dagger-6]

*Wears his flame retard suit*

The nature of this debate is just another example of how weak-willed and over-sensitive many people are. The very fact that anyone deems anything offensive is part of the problem to begin with. Set aside the ethics of whether or not a swastika is "too offensive" for just a moment and consider this: What is the psychology of a person who allows themselves to be offended in the first place by a symbol?

A swastika makes (most of) us aware of the bigotry and genocide of the Nazi party. However, that "red band with the funny-looking cross" is not literally the bigotry and genocide itself. It creates an association in our minds and to be reminded of these associations bring in many the feeling of "offense". But to act on those offenses by saying something MUST be banned shows much about the lack of will and emotional fortitude on the part of the offended and gives away their own lack of character and true respect for free speech.

Six million gassed Jews offend me. Government oppression offends me. Rampant bigotry offends me. A cosplayer acting like an idiot by shouting zeig heil! does not offend me. I'm not that week.

By the way, yes, I'm aware I said "The very fact that anyone deems anything offensive is part of the problem to begin with" and later listed what I found offensive. I think we all find each other offensive to some degree, but that's why we also learn to tolerate each other. Something the real Nazis never quite figured out. Those poor sad bastards.

...Thus Spake Zarathustra 2.0

And a year later I'm inclined to agree wit this and what Pyron said.  Anyways, between Hetalia cosplayers dragging the American flag on the ground like a beach towel and people butchering Marine Corps dress blues for costumes, Fanime is not the place to be if you get easily offended.  I'll never be the one to sport any of this behavior, but if someone else does...well, just shake my head and go about my day.  Too many other things in the world to waste time on someone's costume.



I do have a special love of =my friend's idea of dressing up as a french resistance fighter and photobombing photographs of nazi costumes.

[xkuramaxhieix]

Sorry if this is too late. I really haven't taken the time to read all of the replies, so if I say something someone else said twice, my bad.

I don't honestly see what's so offensive about the swastika's. It's my understanding that there are anime's/shows/mangas that incorporate the swastika's and nazi's. Besides, I think if we're going to make a big deal out of it, we'd have to ban Hetalia cosplaying because of the fact that they're based on countries and as someone mentioned, the flags are dragged on the ground/sat on/ disrespected.

We'd also have to tell cosplayer Jesus that he can no longer cosplay as Jesus. Which to be quite honest, would suck. I've met and talked to the guy. When he's 'in-character' as 'Jesus' he's a laugh. So it would be a shame to have to tell him he could no longer dress as the iconic persona he's known for. Every Fanime I've been to (4 as of right now) Jesus has always been there. He's a riot, and if we take issue with swastika's and banning, we'd have to consider Hetalia as well which would mean Jesus would be banned.

Plus, what about all the nuns/priests cosplayers? Like Brigitte, Wolfwood(trigun). I'm pretty sure they would have to be banned to.