Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Important Pleze Read!)Possible Tourney For Fanime 09

[PinkHairSasuke]

IMO, you should just run it with everything on. The game was built upon it having items, and if people can't handle that, then they should play another game, or just stop whining and learn it.

The main reason people complain about items is because to hardcore smash players they see using items as sort of n00bish.

[Mizuki]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

[JTchinoy]

I'm thinking about final smash, and there's a sanctioned list of items on the evo website.  I haven't read it yet but I pray to god shit like the black hammer aren't sanctioned.  If I put up items aside from final smash, it'll be the sanctioned list.

[PinkHairSasuke]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

Good point and personally i dont care if items are on or off

[Blue Impulse]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

@everyone:

Items add a random factor to the game that takes away from the skill of the individual player.

This is also why certain stages are banned.

Please stop making acusations that "hardcore" smash community thinks you are "noobish" for using items. And the tourny fag comments @ the con are really not necessary, it just makes you look ignorant and vulgar.

[JTchinoy]

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

They are, however, slowly coming into the competitive scene and as stated last month will be added at my discretion.

There's 8 months left to fanime, at the november staff meeting i'll start kicking things into gear once i talk to the rest of gaming staff.

[Mizuki]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

@everyone:

Items add a random factor to the game that takes away from the skill of the individual player.

This is also why certain stages are banned.

Please stop making acusations that "hardcore" smash community thinks you are "noobish" for using items. And the tourny fag comments @ the con are really not necessary, it just makes you look ignorant and vulgar.

Items are a random factor in Smash, so are dizzies in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, so are certain items Hisui throws in Melty Blood, so what, we should ban them? If they're random, deal with it instead of whining. In SF2 you can get dizzied at the start of the round and turned into a combo video, sure it's a pain in the butt, but you have to deal with it as a player. Utilizing something that is random does NOT take away skill, because you take the risk of using it, and then you can use it. This is basic fighting game mentality that can be applied to almost any fighting game. The reason why people banned certain stages is because they can't adapt on the spot to certain conditions, so instead of learning how a stage works, and what can happen they just ban it. If people are so good, they'll know how to counter an item, or stage. It's called LEARNING THE MATCHUP. All fighting games have to do. And there's a difference between being blunt, and vulgur.

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

[Blue Impulse]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

@everyone:

Items add a random factor to the game that takes away from the skill of the individual player.

This is also why certain stages are banned.

Please stop making acusations that "hardcore" smash community thinks you are "noobish" for using items. And the tourny fag comments @ the con are really not necessary, it just makes you look ignorant and vulgar.

Items are a random factor in Smash, so are dizzies in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, so are certain items Hisui throws in Melty Blood, so what, we should ban them? If they're random, deal with it instead of whining. In SF2 you can get dizzied at the start of the round and turned into a combo video, sure it's a pain in the butt, but you have to deal with it as a player. Utilizing something that is random does NOT take away skill, because you take the risk of using it, and then you can use it. This is basic fighting game mentality that can be applied to almost any fighting game. The reason why people banned certain stages is because they can't adapt on the spot to certain conditions, so instead of learning how a stage works, and what can happen they just ban it. If people are so good, they'll know how to counter an item, or stage. It's called LEARNING THE MATCHUP. All fighting games have to do. And there's a difference between being blunt, and vulgur.

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

It has nothing to do with a player being more skilled because the pokeball that lands behind them happens to contain a legendary or something.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players can adapt or not, it is literally unfair and unbalanced to have items on.
Random effects have no place in a competitive environment. Lets say you pick up a capsule, throw it at the ground to break it, it explodes and kills you. You lose the match because of this. Is that fair? Does the other player deserve the recognition of defeating you?
No, the game earned the kill, not the other player. This is not world of warcraft, its not player versus environment, this is player versus player. You can argue all you want that a player needs to be faster and a better thinker in order to play with items, you can think that all you want. I know I can't change your mind because you are thick headed and ignorant. This is fine, i'm not here to sway your opinion, just those who are unsure about their thoughts on this topic.

So, would you rather win with skill... or chance?



Edit: last note...


Quote from: JTchinoy on Yesterday at 10:55:38 PM
I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

A combo is still a players doing, not the games.

[Mizuki]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

@everyone:

Items add a random factor to the game that takes away from the skill of the individual player.

This is also why certain stages are banned.

Please stop making acusations that "hardcore" smash community thinks you are "noobish" for using items. And the tourny fag comments @ the con are really not necessary, it just makes you look ignorant and vulgar.

Items are a random factor in Smash, so are dizzies in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, so are certain items Hisui throws in Melty Blood, so what, we should ban them? If they're random, deal with it instead of whining. In SF2 you can get dizzied at the start of the round and turned into a combo video, sure it's a pain in the butt, but you have to deal with it as a player. Utilizing something that is random does NOT take away skill, because you take the risk of using it, and then you can use it. This is basic fighting game mentality that can be applied to almost any fighting game. The reason why people banned certain stages is because they can't adapt on the spot to certain conditions, so instead of learning how a stage works, and what can happen they just ban it. If people are so good, they'll know how to counter an item, or stage. It's called LEARNING THE MATCHUP. All fighting games have to do. And there's a difference between being blunt, and vulgur.

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

It has nothing to do with a player being more skilled because the pokeball that lands behind them happens to contain a legendary or something.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players can adapt or not, it is literally unfair and unbalanced to have items on.
Random effects have no place in a competitive environment. Lets say you pick up a capsule, throw it at the ground to break it, it explodes and kills you. You lose the match because of this. Is that fair? Does the other player deserve the recognition of defeating you?
No, the game earned the kill, not the other player. This is not world of warcraft, its not player versus environment, this is player versus player. You can argue all you want that a player needs to be faster and a better thinker in order to play with items, you can think that all you want. I know I can't change your mind because you are thick headed and ignorant. This is fine, i'm not here to sway your opinion, just those who are unsure about their thoughts on this topic.

So, would you rather win with skill... or chance?



Edit: last note...


Quote from: JTchinoy on Yesterday at 10:55:38 PM
I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

A combo is still a players doing, not the games.

Did I not just say that there are random effects in other fighting games that are 100% competitive?  If you don't want to get hit by the item, then try and grab it so the opponent doesn't get it. When you're playing fighting games there's almost no such thing as honor, this isn't war, this is a video game, you play to win. If they lose because they blow themselves up, thats fine. If you throw the capsule on the floor and it blows you up, then it's your fault, you shouldn't have grabbed it in the first place. You have to take chances, it's a part of fighting games. It's people like you that are ignorant upon the topic. Maybe if you tried playing other games to actually learn yomi, meta game, and other fighting game necesities, then you would understand where I'm coming at.

[Blue Impulse]

Items were built into the game, if utilizing something built into the game is being noobish, then I don't want to know what kind of logic they're using. Have you ever seen two really good brawl people with items on? It's hard, it's tedious, and it requires a ton of thinking. You have to be on your feet, you never know when one item comes, where it's being placed, and what happens if the opponent takes it, or what if I pick it up? (in Black Hammer case.) Also, in Final Smash case, it's so easy to escape a lot of them, it requires skill, which most games need. The only thing that items bring into Brawl is skill, and the people playing without items are the noobs.

@everyone:

Items add a random factor to the game that takes away from the skill of the individual player.

This is also why certain stages are banned.

Please stop making acusations that "hardcore" smash community thinks you are "noobish" for using items. And the tourny fag comments @ the con are really not necessary, it just makes you look ignorant and vulgar.

Items are a random factor in Smash, so are dizzies in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, so are certain items Hisui throws in Melty Blood, so what, we should ban them? If they're random, deal with it instead of whining. In SF2 you can get dizzied at the start of the round and turned into a combo video, sure it's a pain in the butt, but you have to deal with it as a player. Utilizing something that is random does NOT take away skill, because you take the risk of using it, and then you can use it. This is basic fighting game mentality that can be applied to almost any fighting game. The reason why people banned certain stages is because they can't adapt on the spot to certain conditions, so instead of learning how a stage works, and what can happen they just ban it. If people are so good, they'll know how to counter an item, or stage. It's called LEARNING THE MATCHUP. All fighting games have to do. And there's a difference between being blunt, and vulgur.

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

It has nothing to do with a player being more skilled because the pokeball that lands behind them happens to contain a legendary or something.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players can adapt or not, it is literally unfair and unbalanced to have items on.
Random effects have no place in a competitive environment. Lets say you pick up a capsule, throw it at the ground to break it, it explodes and kills you. You lose the match because of this. Is that fair? Does the other player deserve the recognition of defeating you?
No, the game earned the kill, not the other player. This is not world of warcraft, its not player versus environment, this is player versus player. You can argue all you want that a player needs to be faster and a better thinker in order to play with items, you can think that all you want. I know I can't change your mind because you are thick headed and ignorant. This is fine, i'm not here to sway your opinion, just those who are unsure about their thoughts on this topic.

So, would you rather win with skill... or chance?



Edit: last note...


Quote from: JTchinoy on Yesterday at 10:55:38 PM
I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

A combo is still a players doing, not the games.

Did I not just say that there are random effects in other fighting games that are 100% competitive?  If you don't want to get hit by the item, then try and grab it so the opponent doesn't get it. When you're playing fighting games there's almost no such thing as honor, this isn't war, this is a video game, you play to win. If they lose because they blow themselves up, thats fine. If you throw the capsule on the floor and it blows you up, then it's your fault, you shouldn't have grabbed it in the first place. You have to take chances, it's a part of fighting games. It's people like you that are ignorant upon the topic. Maybe if you tried playing other games to actually learn yomi, meta game, and other fighting game necesities, then you would understand where I'm coming at.

Well the thing about the whole random factor in other competitive games is this...

YOU CANNOT TURN IT OFF.

Guess what, in this game you can.

Weird.

[Mizuki]

Just because you have the option of turning it off does it mean you should use it? The game was built upon the fact that the engine has certain things. You don't bend a game to your own will to play it, that just means you don't want to take the time to learn how a game was made because it's too complicated or whatever excuse you have.

[DivineChaos]

Win.

[PyronIkari]

Well the thing about the whole random factor in other competitive games is this...

YOU CANNOT TURN IT OFF.

Guess what, in this game you can.

Weird.

But this doesn't make sense. Some characters work off random chance. Zappa and Faust for example in GG, random luck has a lot to do with the characters. If you could turn off random, and you could choose what spirit/item you got, then it could easily make things broken/useless.

I think in top level play, items can cause upsets, and this does change how the game is played, but Smash isn't meant to be played the way most competitive players play it. Smash became competitive due to GLITCHES. It was never meant to be played like that, but people turned it into something else by utilizing glitches and creating high level play.

CvS2:EO removed roll canceling. How come tournaments don't use EO? Roll cancels imbalance the game towards A-groove(and C for that matter).

The issue of items on or off...

Here's the thing. Fanime tournaments aren't major competitive tournaments. Fanime tournaments are not a step to Qualifiers for SBO. They are not note worthy achievements like ranking at EVO. The tournaments at fanime are for attendees to compete and have fun with other players. There is no huge cash bounty, there is no major bragging rights... It's why I honestly don't give a crap about the tourneys at Fanime. If I have time to kill I'll enter them.

For the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you 100%. Items imbalance the game, and in top competitive smash, items should not be allowed. For the sake of argument lets say this is a 100% truth in the world, and every competitive smash player in the world, every major organizer in the world agrees with this.

I still think items should be on at fanime. Why? Because it's a god damned anime convention set up for people to have fun.

[Blue Impulse]

Oh well, you people are too headstrong to see anyone elses opinion without hammering it down. I'm sure once the tourny actually gets here and the real players show up, other than the 5 people on this board things might change.

[Mizuki]

Oh well, you people are too headstrong to see anyone elses opinion without hammering it down. I'm sure once the tourny actually gets here and the real players show up, other than the 5 people on this board things might change.

Uhhh, have you seen your own posts? 

Real players? You mean like Ken who is on Survivor, CPU who will probably be in school, and the other finalists at Evo who probably have better things to do? Real players are the people who are playing All-Brawl rules, who go to real fighting game majors and understand fighting games, and why items shouldn't be taken away. It's people like you is the reason why people HATE the smash community a lot. If you don't want items on, and only final destination go and play with your friends on Melee.

[PyronIkari]

Oh well, you people are too headstrong to see anyone elses opinion without hammering it down. I'm sure once the tourny actually gets here and the real players show up, other than the 5 people on this board things might change.

Are you really that stupid? Do you really think that most people at fanime are hardcore competitive smash players? Do you really think the majority of smash players at fanime play no items at home and ban stages that might be unfair?

You are really really really stupid if you honestly believe that. The con needs to think of the majority. And if you want to get your panties in a bunch because you(the minority) want the tourney to be ran a specific way, throw your own tourney in your room and invite people to go. Frankly, I see what your opinion is, but YOU'RE not seeing the opinion of anyone else. All you care about is "LOLOL I PLAY SMASH COMPETITIVELY, SO EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY BY MY RULES!"

In this case, it's a matter of opinion, and purely opinion what you prefer to play. The majority will win. Realistically, what you SHOULD be suggesting is that when the tourney happens, those that sign up VOTE for whether it be items or not, and the majority will win. However, that would be having to take it up with whoever is running the tourney, and hoping they'll agree.

[IndaMix]

Oh well, you people are too headstrong to see anyone elses opinion without hammering it down. I'm sure once the tourny actually gets here and the real players show up, other than the 5 people on this board things might change.

Are you really that stupid? Do you really think that most people at fanime are hardcore competitive smash players? Do you really think the majority of smash players at fanime play no items at home and ban stages that might be unfair?

You are really really really stupid if you honestly believe that. The con needs to think of the majority. And if you want to get your panties in a bunch because you(the minority) want the tourney to be ran a specific way, throw your own tourney in your room and invite people to go. Frankly, I see what your opinion is, but YOU'RE not seeing the opinion of anyone else. All you care about is "LOLOL I PLAY SMASH COMPETITIVELY, SO EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY BY MY RULES!"

In this case, it's a matter of opinion, and purely opinion what you prefer to play. The majority will win. Realistically, what you SHOULD be suggesting is that when the tourney happens, those that sign up VOTE for whether it be items or not, and the majority will win. However, that would be having to take it up with whoever is running the tourney, and hoping they'll agree.

ok alot of people might not use items off when they are playing at home but i'm sure that they understand that at a tournament the rules are different.

so what you should do is keep the tournament with items off and then the casual play have them on for any one who wants them on. 

[PyronIkari]

ok alot of people might not use items off when they are playing at home but i'm sure that they understand that at a tournament the rules are different.

so what you should do is keep the tournament with items off and then the casual play have them on for any one who wants them on. 

At a major tournament you might have an argument. Once more, this isn't a regionals. This isn't EVO. This isn't a major competitive tournament. This is Fanime. I'm sure competitive players understand that this isn't a major tournament and it's meant more for the attendees to have fun and compete against other people. If you want to go to a smash tournament... go to a damned major smash tournament and argue there about how it shouldn't have items. In which case according to which you go to, they may or may not agree with you.

As I said. If you want to have a super competitive smash tourney, throw a tournament in your room, and have it no items, ban whatever the hell you want and do it under the name of "balance".

The fanime tournaments for the most part, are more about the attendees over the super competitive players.

[JTchinoy]

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

I'm sorry but that's an apples to oranges comparison.  Wall carry is controlled by the player, the player can manipulate positioning on the map so that their launchers will get wall combos.  A wall combo doesn't magically appear in the game like an item, it's ALWAYS there.  I don't see how comparing chance of the draw (item appearance) is comparable to me carrying you to the wall.  So you can drop that mizuki wins pic because he failed.

Pyron is right, however, in this isn't a major tournament.  I just figured last year that I'd make e-gaming as organized as the rest of the con and make it stand out in its own right.  Unlike most fighting games, Smash is indeed sitting on the wall between fighting and party games.  I might consider doing a brawl tourney (1v1v1v1) and a 1v1 item tourney instead of the professional this year.  In defense of no item rules, however, our turnout last year for "pro" format was overwhelming to say the least.  We had an Evo level turnout, most of which contained competitive players to my understanding.  If we were to turn brawl into a fun tournament, you have to keep in mind we'll have signups that will dwarf last year's. 

I'm still on the fence.

[IndaMix]

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

I'm sorry but that's an apples to oranges comparison.  Wall carry is controlled by the player, the player can manipulate positioning on the map so that their launchers will get wall combos.  A wall combo doesn't magically appear in the game like an item, it's ALWAYS there.  I don't see how comparing chance of the draw (item appearance) is comparable to me carrying you to the wall.  So you can drop that mizuki wins pic because he failed.

Pyron is right, however, in this isn't a major tournament.  I just figured last year that I'd make e-gaming as organized as the rest of the con and make it stand out in its own right.  Unlike most fighting games, Smash is indeed sitting on the wall between fighting and party games.  I might consider doing a brawl tourney (1v1v1v1) and a 1v1 item tourney instead of the professional this year.  In defense of no item rules, however, our turnout last year for "pro" format was overwhelming to say the least.  We had an Evo level turnout, most of which contained competitive players to my understanding.  If we were to turn brawl into a fun tournament, you have to keep in mind we'll have signups that will dwarf last year's. 

I'm still on the fence.

i agree, i was there last year and i do know alot of the people who signed up and they signed up to play in a "pro" tournament rule setting, and no one there complained that there should be items on.