FanimeCon 2019 Forums

Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name  (Read 8258 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nyxyin

  • Inu-Posta
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2008, 02:27:07 AM »

First off, you act like mixed raced born children are not ever the victim of racism.
I'm sorry you misinterpreted what I wrote, but I don't believe that at all.  I'm just saying that, when people cannot tell or guess what percentages the majority of people might be, we lose the capability of being able to tell the difference between races, so we cannot be racist.  I never meant to imply that mixes don't get victimized by the racially determinate today, but that's because the majority hasn't quite shifted yet.  Also, people with racial backgrounds like Keanu Reeves, Tia Carrere, Dean Cain, Lou Diamond Phillips, Barack Obama, etc., seem very unlikely to be racist themselves.  What race or mix of races could they discriminate against?  Furthermore, as Hollywood puts more and more mixes on the screen, that also starts breaking down people's attempts to jump to conclusions about racial background.

Quote
Now someone that is white comes upon them... or black. Will the mixed race people not be racist towards them?
No, because nobody can tell if they're mixed or not.  Even if they look "purebred" to us today, it's just a frame of mind we were taught.  When the majority is some form of mixed, people will stop making assumptions about racial ancestry because we'll see more and more cases like this:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_and_white_twins.htm

Quote
For your theory to even be plausible it would take thousands upon thousands of years to happen
With the Internet and ease of global travel, I'd estimate closer to a hundred.  If everybody actually aimed for having mixed children, it only takes 30 years.  In 2000 for Santa Clara County, over 15% of the population already does not identify with any of white, black, Asian, Pacific Islander, American Indian, or Hispanic / Latino.

Quote
Racism appears due to intolerance to something that they are not.
Technically, that's closer to the lines of "discrimination", "elitism", or "bigotry".  I completely agree that discrimination, elitism, and bigotry will not go away as long as people care about their values.  Racism is more specific.

Quote
If someone is half white and black, why wouldn't they be racist towards someone half asian half hispanic.
Because they look no more alike or more different from each other than the half-white/half-asian and half-black/half-hispanic, not to mention all the quarters, eighths, and sixteenths that already exist out there.  There won't be enough people of similar racial background to form enough of a critical mass to overcome other differences.  Instead of white vs black vs Asian, etc., it'll become easier to determine jock vs nerd or what not.
Logged

ewu

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2553
  • Insert cool text here
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 08:29:42 AM »

The argument that racism will be eliminated by interbreeding has the same merit and even logic as the "color blind" society approach to racism. Both ignore pertinent and real factors in this world. Racism exists. Racism is not just a matter of how we look at it today and how we perceive each other now. It it integrally related to the history of racism as well as the ESTABLISHED societal norms that make this society not equal for people of color. It will not matter if we all look close to the same, there will still be bigotry based on the color of skin, no matter how slight the difference.

Any racism at all, cannot be accepted. The psychological effects are enormous. The problem is that this is not caused by a medical condition or family or some other isolated cause, but by individuals, often white but also People of Color, making choices that will cause people harm. Choices that reinforce this harmful thought process in society and make it OK for other people to make seemingly innocent choices that have profound effects.
Logged
Eric Wu
FanimeCon Chairman
FanimeCon Forums Moderator

ericATfanimeDOTcom

PyronIkari

  • Post in the Shell: SAC
  • Posts: 2001
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2008, 07:48:21 PM »

I'm sorry you misinterpreted what I wrote, but I don't believe that at all.  I'm just saying that, when people cannot tell or guess what percentages the majority of people might be, we lose the capability of being able to tell the difference between races, so we cannot be racist.  I never meant to imply that mixes don't get victimized by the racially determinate today, but that's because the majority hasn't quite shifted yet.  Also, people with racial backgrounds like Keanu Reeves, Tia Carrere, Dean Cain, Lou Diamond Phillips, Barack Obama, etc., seem very unlikely to be racist themselves.  What race or mix of races could they discriminate against?  Furthermore, as Hollywood puts more and more mixes on the screen, that also starts breaking down people's attempts to jump to conclusions about racial background.
I didn't misinterpret anything. You don't need to know exact percentages to be racist. Obama is black. Tiger Woods... Black. Doesn't matter that Obama is half white. Doesn't matter that Tiger Woods is more Thai than black. They're both black... and that's how the world sees them. Being mixed makes you less racist? Really? I know plenty of mixed Asians that hate other Asian races. I grew up in Little Saigon. I lived a good majority of my life in K-town in Down Town LA. I know plenty of mixed Asian races that hate other races. You seem to not understand how racism works.

I know half white/mexican people that HATE other hispanics. Let me make your "theory" more open.

It makes sense... only if you don't think about it. The idea isn't that different than another idea. Your base is that... if we make everything equal, no one will be able to be racist towards anyone else, because they will have no grounds to do so... therefore the problem won't exist.

Hi... I'd like you to meet my friend communism. By forcing everyone to be practically the same... other problems will occur, that will just replace the problem it will solve.

In other words. By forcibly solving this one problem, you would create millions of other problem. Besides, do you realize for this idea to work, everyone would have to throw away their cultural pride?

Quote
No, because nobody can tell if they're mixed or not.  Even if they look "purebred" to us today, it's just a frame of mind we were taught.  When the majority is some form of mixed, people will stop making assumptions about racial ancestry because we'll see more and more cases like this:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_and_white_twins.htm
See this is funny. People will not stop making assumptions as I noted earlier. Obama is black... If someone can tell someone is mixed, they will be attacked for looking mixed. If you can't tell they're mixed, they will be attacked for being whatever race they do look. "I'm part black". Do you think by saying that people will instantly go "OH COOL, you're part black, never mind then, let's chill homie". Please.

Quote
With the Internet and ease of global travel, I'd estimate closer to a hundred.  If everybody actually aimed for having mixed children, it only takes 30 years.  In 2000 for Santa Clara County, over 15% of the population already does not identify with any of white, black, Asian, Pacific Islander, American Indian, or Hispanic / Latino.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA 30 Years? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA So in 1 to 2 generations, you expect everyone to be mixed blood enough to the point to where the traits they carry will not be distinguishable? Let's just do the math for this.

Okay everyone in this generation puts all of their emotions on the side and breeds PURELY to mix races(first off this is already preposterous). So that would make everyone in the world half races. Then these people will then breed with a different half breed, making their children 1/4. Now, what are the chances that all of these people will look as if they do not fit into any one single race? We then play luck of genes. Oh shit your kid turned out looking black, even though he's 1/4 black 1/4 asian 1/4 hispanic 1/4 samoan. Guess what, he will get crap because he looks black.

What this means is, that you'd just shift who would be the target. It wouldn't solve anything at all, and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do. We'd have to breed PURELY to breed. 

Quote
Technically, that's closer to the lines of "discrimination", "elitism", or "bigotry".  I completely agree that discrimination, elitism, and bigotry will not go away as long as people care about their values.  Racism is more specific.
... ...

Racism... by defenition... is "discrimination". Racism by defenition is "elitism". Racism by defenition is "bigotry".

Quote
Because they look no more alike or more different from each other than the half-white/half-asian and half-black/half-hispanic, not to mention all the quarters, eighths, and sixteenths that already exist out there.  There won't be enough people of similar racial background to form enough of a critical mass to overcome other differences.  Instead of white vs black vs Asian, etc., it'll become easier to determine jock vs nerd or what not.
A big part of racism isn't just the cultural back ground, but the physical features that also come along with them? As I said, it doesn't matter if you're half black and half white, if you look black, you are black to a lot of people. 

The only FEASIBLE way to do what you are stating... is if we were all cloned to look exactly the same. That way no races traits will be more apparent in someone else, than a different races traits will appear in someone else.

And once more, even if this theoretical idea came to pass(which is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE), it would only open up more outlets and problems.
Logged

Nyxyin

  • Inu-Posta
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2008, 04:50:27 AM »

Your base is that... if we make everything equal, no one will be able to be racist towards anyone else, because they will have no grounds to do so... therefore the problem won't exist.
Actually, it's quite the opposite.  If everybody were different, there won't be such a solid wall of aligned factors creating the problem.

Quote
for this idea to work, everyone would have to throw away their cultural pride?
That's a bad assumption.  Even one generation of easy access to air travel started breaking down the link between race and culture.  At my alma mater, there are plenty of other races in the Asian American club because people were just interested in the culture.  Plenty of minorities are proud to be American in culture.  Plenty of anime fans seem to be quite proud of whatever bits of Japanese culture they know.  The enthusiasm from people who choose to be interested in a culture (as opposed to being forced into it by birth) often reinvigorates several positive aspects of traditional cultural practices.

Quote
Quote
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_and_white_twins.htm
See this is funny. People will not stop making assumptions as I noted earlier.
When situations like these become more frequent and more commonly known, people will stop making assumptions.

Quote
So in 1 to 2 generations, you expect everyone to be mixed blood enough to the point to where the traits they carry will not be distinguishable?
No, they'll merely be insufficiently correlated with current racial cues to allow races to group together.

Quote
So that would make everyone in the world half races.
False.  You forget to count the mixed people who already exist.

Quote
Guess what, he will get crap because he looks black.
From whom?  If we assumed that everybody mixed, then this generation has absolutely zero purebred blacks.  Some mixed blacks will still look black too, but their siblings may look like some other race, and their parents are very likely to look different from them.  If every last family has such mixes (or even if every last family is merely close to one such family even if they're not like this themselves), it would be extreme hypocrisy to be racist.  At that point, it would be easier to switch to other factors: hate fat people or thin people or short people or tall people, etc.  I suppose there could be an undercurrent of racism from some, but it wouldn't be a problem because there won't be this wall of correlated traits.

Quote
Racism... by defenition... is "discrimination". Racism by defenition is "elitism". Racism by defenition is "bigotry".
There are plenty of free dictionaries online that can help you with that.  (They can help with spelling too.)  Racism is a subset of discrimination, elitism, and bigotry.  That's my point.  People can discriminate against old people, but "old people" isn't a race.

Quote
The only FEASIBLE way to do what you are stating... is if we were all cloned to look exactly the same.
Not at all.  You see, I somehow managed to end up with something like racial aphasia.  When I walk into a sushi restaurant, I already often can't tell if the sushi chef is maybe a light black, tanned white, or even full-blooded Asian, Hispanic, or Native.  Usually, I consider a slightly higher probability that they're some form of Asian (because, well, it's a sushi restaurant), but I have heard some speaking rather Mexican-accented Spanish to the kitchen crew, so I'd say the probability of that person being Hispanic is higher.  Everybody still looks different to me, and I tell if their skin is lighter or darker, or if their hair is finer or thicker, but I just cannot guess what race they're from based on physical appearance alone.  I don't understand how people tell the difference, but I'm often unable to put people into racial groups with any amount of certainty.  I'm Asian, so let's pretend I want to like Asians and hate Hispanics.  However, the physical differences between Hispanic or Asian give me the most difficulty, so how can I discriminate against or for either group?  Speech and culture can be trained.  I suppose I can discriminate against everybody who speaks with an accent, but most people raised in the US will be likely to have US accents, no matter what their race might be.

The problem with racism isn't the differences between individuals: it's the huge wall of traits combined together in a way that is recognized as a distinct group by most people.  Racism against blacks is a lot easier if they have certain hair styles and speak Ebonics.  I wonder if Obama and Tiger Woods would still get called black if they chose a different hairstyle or if more Asians and Hispanics wore their hair that way.


Even if you don't believe in the genetics angle eventually making racism moot, the social angle is making great progress too: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080111/news_lz1e11twenge.html
Quote
In a state such as Iowa that's 96 percent white, a black guy can now win, because in our world segregation has never existed. When an Associated Press story announced that Obama's Iowa win was part of "a historic bid to become the nation's first black president," young voters thought, "Who cares? I just like the guy."

I believe the ability to even tell the difference between races is taught.  If Gen Me doesn't care, then they're not going to teach the ability to their kids.  In either case, racism is not "here to stay".  It's dying.
Logged

ewu

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2553
  • Insert cool text here
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2008, 08:35:43 AM »

The "Colorblind" society is the most chosen method for discriminatory laws. It kindly ignores the established white preference in society and the long tainted history of racism. The logic runs that if you are colorblind then you can't be racist. Although the execution is I can be as racist as I want, but I wont see it cuz I'm colorblind. Society will not see it because we have legislated laws not only to not make decisions by race but to not even collect data by race. There is no racism because there is no data to support that. big piles of bovine rectal excretion....

Plainly, we act with color consciosness but refuse to admint it, and in turn accuse an observer who points out our own color consciousness of "playing the race card" as if such a trump existed.

I would link you to the wiki page on colorblindness but you  wouldn't read it anyways...

btw, are you saying that discrimination is ok? WTF

Remeber, race is a social constuct. The moment we become undifferentiated the social construct will morph itself to identify the smallest differences and people will use this social construct to their benifit, thereby ressurecting racism before it as even died.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 09:47:03 AM by ewu »
Logged
Eric Wu
FanimeCon Chairman
FanimeCon Forums Moderator

ericATfanimeDOTcom

Nyxyin

  • Inu-Posta
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2008, 02:55:38 PM »

btw, are you saying that discrimination is ok? WTF
Yes.  Discrimination doesn't necessarily include bigotry.  That's only one of several possible definitions.  The basis of the definition of discrimination is discernment.  Affirmative action is discrimination.  Cultural pride is also discrimination (although not of a racial variety).  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination

I think bigotry is a biological construct, frankly.  I have said repeatedly that there will still be bigotry.  "The smallest differences" is no longer "racism" specifically.  To pull up an example I already mentioned, let's put "fat" for "the smallest differences".  If people hate fat people, do they count as "racist"?  Technically, no: that's a different type of bigotry.  That's all I'm saying.

From my point of view, the point that is being repeatedly ignored since I first started posting is the difference between "racism" specifically and "discrimination", "bigotry", "prejudice", etc.  I suppose it makes sense that, if people believe all discrimination to be bad, then they become incapable of mere discernment even between different words.

I don't understand how people can be racist if they can't discern the difference between races.  Furthermore, I don't understand how racism can be much of a problem if there are 6 billion different races.  There may still be nepotism, but that's still not racism, especially if families are mixed, and families themselves are breaking down too.

Furthermore, I think we're already at the point that the white preference in society has already been broken down enough.  Since Hollywood has been putting more and more different races in a reasonable variety of roles, people are accustomed to seeing all sorts of minorities just naturally fit into all different contexts.  Boy nurses are still a bit weird, but black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. nurses are as normal as white ones.

It's usually useful to stop or scale back fighting of a battle that has already been won.  If an army keeps battling in an area where they've already defeated the enemy, the only people left to battle would be those who previously didn't care one way or another.  Attacking innocent bystanders is likely to create a backlash: they didn't care about the armies before, but they're going to hate the winning army and its cause if it starts picking on them.  It's a delicate balance to know when to fight and when not to, and constant non-stop fighting is going to create more problems than it solves.  It's usually a more efficient way to win the war if battles were chosen carefully.

Back to the article, I was suggesting reasons why the people in that particular high school may have good reasons for not choosing to not fight that particular battle at that particular time.  It seems like a bad strategy to engage in a battle in which you're pretty much guaranteed to hurt yourself whether you win or lose.

Quote
you wouldn't read it anyways...
Even if that weren't pure psychological displacement, it's at least quite ad hominem.  Just because I disagree doesn't mean I didn't read.  The only time you complained about anybody not reading was when you called Steve.Young ugly.  You weren't the only person posting to the thread, and he didn't quote your response, so he could've easily been just making a comment related to the topic but wasn't entirely stemming from purely your comment.  I thought his comment was a good one in general for the topic.  I don't understand why you would overlook Pyron's repeated offensive comments and start instigating your own, especially against Steve.  It seemed very inconsistent for you to tell cortana to not insult others and then tell Steve that he's ugly.

Now, if you did that because you confused me and Steve, then that also goes to support colorblindness removing the effects of racism.  If you just can't tell the difference between other people and me sometimes, and if you also fail to recognize me as me sometimes, then no matter how Nyxyin-ist you want to be, the effect is that you'd be just plain rude at random times to random people.  If everybody on the board was Nyxyin-ist, but everybody kept randomly confusing other people for me and me for other people, then the effect is that many Nyxyin-ist comments will fall on lots of people who aren't me, and I'll escape such comments quite a lot of the time too, which means that I personally don't suffer much of a disadvantage compared to everybody else.
Logged

ewu

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2553
  • Insert cool text here
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2008, 04:15:57 PM »

If discrimination is OK, then one needs to take the next step. Discrimination will then be used in a selfish or unselfish manner. As we learned from Communism, humans are by nature selfish and such a utopia will collapse when applied to humans. It many not be any of us, but as long as it is socially acceptable and integrated, discrimination will be used for nefarious means. As long as we do not take active measures to 1) legislate equality (in an educated and non-colorblind fashion) and 2) decide that we will recognize race and personally address it in ways that offer equal opportunity there will always be injustice. Regardless of how we look to each other injustice will happen and we must continue to fight it and educate people about it.

I like this notion that "white preference" has been broken down "enough". Look at the statistics. Why is there such imbalance? Is it because Blacks are genetically lazy? Asians are genetically smart? whites are genetically superior? yay! the Nazis had something going, lets kill everybody that isn't white, then we'll have equality!

Reiterating from what I have said earlier:
Will the ALCU ever say that we have full freedom of speech? Will the NRA say that we have enough rights to bear arms?

The people being attacked are by no means innocent. They may think so, but we all still are prejudicial and unjust in our decisions. These people are even more culpable to think they are innocent and make decisions that are not as such.

Sun Tzu was a great strategist, don't insult his name and his culture by misappropriating his teaching in such a shameful way.

In the end, if you do not identify, understand, and address racism and, more broadly, discrimination, you convey that it is OK. You convey that it is permissible to be unjust. You serve to legitimize the bigotry.

BTW, Steve is the only one that addressed my question in my Prop. 8 thread. Feel free to interpret my question to Steve, but his understanding the only one that matters.
Just in case you want to mull it over more: http://forums.fanime.com/index.php/topic,11156.msg293871.html#msg293871

Logged
Eric Wu
FanimeCon Chairman
FanimeCon Forums Moderator

ericATfanimeDOTcom

PyronIkari

  • Post in the Shell: SAC
  • Posts: 2001
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 04:17:37 PM »

I'm just not going to bother with how you only reply to the parts that you think you can argue and don't even mention the other parts that totally disprove what you're saying...

Actually, it's quite the opposite.  If everybody were different, there won't be such a solid wall of aligned factors creating the problem.
"Everyone is the same because everyone is different". No sorry, it's still the same thing. You also seem to not understand how genetics work... Just because people are mixed race doesn't mean traits of a race will exist. Also...

You act as if race is purely blood and genetic related. I mentioned it before, but I will expand on it. Culture is part of race. If my kid practices a part of culture, they can very well be a target of racism.

Quote
That's a bad assumption.  Even one generation of easy access to air travel started breaking down the link between race and culture.  At my alma mater, there are plenty of other races in the Asian American club because people were just interested in the culture.  Plenty of minorities are proud to be American in culture.  Plenty of anime fans seem to be quite proud of whatever bits of Japanese culture they know.  The enthusiasm from people who choose to be interested in a culture (as opposed to being forced into it by birth) often reinvigorates several positive aspects of traditional cultural practices.
Huh? I don't even see how any of this applies to a damned thing you said.

I AM VIETNAMESE... I WANT TO HAVE VIETNAMESE KIDS SO THEY CAN CARRY ON MY HERRITEGE AND CULTURE.

That goes against your idea. I have to destroy this idea and feeling for your idea to work. Once more, impossible. You basically want people ONLY TO BREED to mix races and no other purpose, the entire world will not agree... not to mention... all the non-civilized areas. Countrysides of Asia have gone years without even SEEING another race. Tribes in Africe...

Oh not to mention, good look accepting things like... Israelites and Palestineans willing to mix breed and then all of a sudden accepting each other.

Quote
When situations like these become more frequent and more commonly known, people will stop making assumptions.
Anecdotal. Most people won't give a damn regardless.

Quote
No, they'll merely be insufficiently correlated with current racial cues to allow races to group together.
Once more, you don't have a damn clue how genetics work.

Quote
False.  You forget to count the mixed people who already exist.
You are an idiot... it was theorhetical. Even if there are already mixed people... the amount of non mixed races will not reach that point until they start. So some will be 1/16ths but the base races will not... so your stupid statement has no bearing in this at all.

Quote
From whom?  If we assumed that everybody mixed, then this generation has absolutely zero purebred blacks.  Some mixed blacks will still look black too, but their siblings may look like some other race, and their parents are very likely to look different from them.  If every last family has such mixes (or even if every last family is merely close to one such family even if they're not like this themselves), it would be extreme hypocrisy to be racist.  At that point, it would be easier to switch to other factors: hate fat people or thin people or short people or tall people, etc.  I suppose there could be an undercurrent of racism from some, but it wouldn't be a problem because there won't be this wall of correlated traits.
Back to theory. You THEORIZE that no one will beat him up because he looks black, therefore he might be back. It doesn't matter that IN REALITY he is mixed... because what people see is what they believe. He can tell me he is mixed, he can literally be mixed... but in my eyes, he won't be(I use me not literally). So once more, everything you just said is out the window.

Quote
There are plenty of free dictionaries online that can help you with that.  (They can help with spelling too.)  Racism is a subset of discrimination, elitism, and bigotry.  That's my point.  People can discriminate against old people, but "old people" isn't a race.
Sigh... READ WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT IT... I stated that something is racist... you said it wasn't.


I reply more later... I'm at work and my break is over.
Logged

ewu

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2553
  • Insert cool text here
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 06:50:04 PM »

Here is a touch of immigrant humor from the 18 Mighty Mountain Warriors.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiphLMJKHCI

Times have changed, whites now dominate. I hope that when the Asians gain economic and otherwise powers they will wield it wisely.
Logged
Eric Wu
FanimeCon Chairman
FanimeCon Forums Moderator

ericATfanimeDOTcom

PyronIkari

  • Post in the Shell: SAC
  • Posts: 2001
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 09:05:36 PM »

Round 2
Not at all.  You see, I somehow managed to end up with something like racial aphasia.  When I walk into a sushi restaurant, I already often can't tell if the sushi chef is maybe a light black, tanned white, or even full-blooded Asian, Hispanic, or Native.  Usually, I consider a slightly higher probability that they're some form of Asian (because, well, it's a sushi restaurant), but I have heard some speaking rather Mexican-accented Spanish to the kitchen crew, so I'd say the probability of that person being Hispanic is higher.  Everybody still looks different to me, and I tell if their skin is lighter or darker, or if their hair is finer or thicker, but I just cannot guess what race they're from based on physical appearance alone.  I don't understand how people tell the difference, but I'm often unable to put people into racial groups with any amount of certainty.  I'm Asian, so let's pretend I want to like Asians and hate Hispanics.  However, the physical differences between Hispanic or Asian give me the most difficulty, so how can I discriminate against or for either group?  Speech and culture can be trained.  I suppose I can discriminate against everybody who speaks with an accent, but most people raised in the US will be likely to have US accents, no matter what their race might be.

Maybe you just suck at differentiating races? In general, I'm quite good at it. Does that matter? Wait... so speaking Spanish means someone is more likely to be of hispanic origins? Or on a greater form... someone that speaks a different language is more likely to be of that country of origin? So... those black people that spoke Japanese in Japan... weren't really black at all... they were Japanese, that might have just looked black, and chances are they were of mixed race? Wow... you're so smrt.

Okay enough with the obvious sarcasm. What does anything you just wrote have anything to do with what the discussion is about? You basically said "how can you be racist if *you* cannot tell the difference between races". Easy... I can. Even if I couldn't just by a glance, I don't need to, because I can prejudge without knowing the exact bloodline of a person. I can stereotype someone to a race even if they aren't 100% that race. Shall I call Kazuko in here, and have her tell you how many people are racist to her because they think she's Mexican(Secret, she isn't Mexican). How many people have been racist towards me, because I'm a stupid chink, a Jap, etc... despite me being Viet? My friend is half JP half white, and he gets called racist remarks on both sides. So how does your line of thinking work at all? Racism is more than just attacking someone because of their physical features based purely on what their actual bloodline is... and what part of that don't you understand? It's not that hard of a concept at all.

Quote
The problem with racism isn't the differences between individuals: it's the huge wall of traits combined together in a way that is recognized as a distinct group by most people.  Racism against blacks is a lot easier if they have certain hair styles and speak Ebonics.  I wonder if Obama and Tiger Woods would still get called black if they chose a different hairstyle or if more Asians and Hispanics wore their hair that way.

Uhm... ... ... I am now REALLY questioning not only your logic, but your sight... and your basic comprehension.

The haircut they have is called a Cesar Fade. All races do it. Mexicans, Whites, Asians... Lots of them. I see that haircut at least twice a day on my commute to and from work on all kinds of races. 3 of my co-workers have similar fades(not exactly a cesar fade) and 1 is Asian, 1 is Hispanic, and one is black.

Racism is EASIER when you take a stereotype... but that's not "racism" as a whole.

The whole wall? Yes, but that wall has so many parts to it, that just 1 of them is all that's needed to be the target of racism. You listen to rap music... that's enough to be a target of racism. To be called a nigger, even if you are a Filipino. Though, you do finally admit to something you were wrong about indirectly... It's more than just "the bloodline" Even if I'm a mixed race... if I have dreadlocks, and am slightly dark... guess what, I'll be called a nigger by some.

Doesn't that completely just disprove your entire argument alone? BUT WE'LL CONTINUE ANYWAYS!

Quote
Even if you don't believe in the genetics angle eventually making racism moot, the social angle is making great progress too: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080111/news_lz1e11twenge.html
This is hilarious actually. I was born in Iowa. A have relatives that live in Iowa. I guess I should tell them they're wrong about being victims of racism in Iowa, because according to a newspaper in San Diego, Iowa's youth isn't racist.

Racism will always exist, because discrimination will always exist. The only way to possibly remove racism, is for there to be no race, in other words... for there to be no people. Even if everyone in the world is mixed blooded, there will still be races within them(besides the impossibility of making everyone in the world mixed blooded for millenia).


Quote
I believe the ability to even tell the difference between races is taught.  If Gen Me doesn't care, then they're not going to teach the ability to their kids.  In either case, racism is not "here to stay".  It's dying.

HAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA Just like sexism right? Sure it's not as bad as it used to be, but it won't be dying ANYTIME soon(or at all).

Yes.  Discrimination doesn't necessarily include bigotry.  That's only one of several possible definitions.  The basis of the definition of discrimination is discernment.  Affirmative action is discrimination.  Cultural pride is also discrimination (although not of a racial variety).  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination
What's this, a schematics argument?!?!??!?!?!? Is that really all you can do?

It was obvious what he meant. The dictionary doesn't mean crap, and frankly, even if you did, if you defined it based solely on definition 3... Then the bigotry is still there.

Quote
I think bigotry is a biological construct, frankly.  I have said repeatedly that there will still be bigotry.  "The smallest differences" is no longer "racism" specifically.  To pull up an example I already mentioned, let's put "fat" for "the smallest differences".  If people hate fat people, do they count as "racist"?  Technically, no: that's a different type of bigotry.  That's all I'm saying.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa... now you're just comparing two totally different things. I can easily turn your statement into a racist one. Someone that hates mexican woman because they tend to get fat is the basis. Now I can be racist to any fat woman by stating "Look at that fat bitch, she must have mexican blood in her somewhere".

Or is that not racist?

Quote
From my point of view, the point that is being repeatedly ignored since I first started posting is the difference between "racism" specifically and "discrimination", "bigotry", "prejudice", etc.  I suppose it makes sense that, if people believe all discrimination to be bad, then they become incapable of mere discernment even between different words.
No, we recognize it... you are arguing a MOOT POINT because it doesn't even apply at all. Racism is a specific form of discrimination... a specific form of bigotry, and a specific form of prejudice. Okay... what's your point? That racism is still there and doesn't magically disappear if it's slightly shifted. If the discrimination isn't PURELY based on genetics, it doesn't mean that it's not racist. You even stated that in your own post about hair and speech. You were actually racist by stating that "someone is more likely to be hispanic because of their speech" concerning the sushi chef. Congrats... you god damned racist. Or are you stating that, you weren't being racist, just prejudice?(Pssst don't argue this... because you'll lose... best to just ignore it like you usually do and don't address it at all).

Quote
I don't understand how people can be racist if they can't discern the difference between races.  Furthermore, I don't understand how racism can be much of a problem if there are 6 billion different races.  There may still be nepotism, but that's still not racism, especially if families are mixed, and families themselves are breaking down too.
I've already answered this. Just because YOU CAN'T doesn't mean others can. Just because you can't tell specifically what race someone is, doesn't mean you can't be racist. You don't understand... doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with you. And you stating a lot of the things you have in this thread, would be extremely offending to a lot of people(frankly I don't give find it offending, because to me it's just a lot of stupid theory and idea).

Your theory and idea isn't about tolerance. It's not about preventing racism... it's about abolishing race completely. (insert hitler reference here).

Your idea existed in the past. The results were families being broken apart, children being snatched from their homes, and people being killed for the sake of "removing race". The only way to follow that idea is to force people to follow it. If anyone doesn't want to follow it, they must be removed, because they are preventing its progress. As long as one person in the world doesn't have a mixed child... your idea is flawed(and that's just one of the flaws). Even if everyone was mixed, there is absolutely no way to guarantee that everyone will stop being racist based on a theory that "if we can't tell what we are, we can't hate each other for what we are". Want an easier way to accomplish this... we all stab each other in the eyes, and make everyone in the world become blind. That way, race isn't an issue. You can't tell what race anyone is... but I guarantee you that racism will still exist. The moment someone says "rearry" they are a Jap. The moment someone says "mon" they are black. The moment someone says pronounces the "h" in herb, they are british.

As I said, your idea only makes sense... if you don't think about it. If you look back in all your replies, you not once actually defend your idea in how it works or doesn't work... you're only stating that "Racism is disappearing! It's working!" You don't actually prove how in any way shape or form the idea works. We've given millions of examples of how it doesn't work, and you merely try to disprove a few of them, missing the big picture.

Quote
Furthermore, I think we're already at the point that the white preference in society has already been broken down enough.  Since Hollywood has been putting more and more different races in a reasonable variety of roles, people are accustomed to seeing all sorts of minorities just naturally fit into all different contexts.  Boy nurses are still a bit weird, but black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. nurses are as normal as white ones.
... This is just stupid. Have you been to a hospital. Everyone knows all nurses are Filipino(/racism). This is done to appease people. Races get pissed off when their race isn't represented.

Quote
It's usually useful to stop or scale back fighting of a battle that has already been won.  If an army keeps battling in an area where they've already defeated the enemy, the only people left to battle would be those who previously didn't care one way or another.  Attacking innocent bystanders is likely to create a backlash: they didn't care about the armies before, but they're going to hate the winning army and its cause if it starts picking on them.  It's a delicate balance to know when to fight and when not to, and constant non-stop fighting is going to create more problems than it solves.  It's usually a more efficient way to win the war if battles were chosen carefully.
Huh? What in gods hell does this mean and how does it apply to anything?

Quote
Back to the article, I was suggesting reasons why the people in that particular high school may have good reasons for not choosing to not fight that particular battle at that particular time.  It seems like a bad strategy to engage in a battle in which you're pretty much guaranteed to hurt yourself whether you win or lose.

... again... this has nothing to do with anything.

The rest of what you typed was just so incredibly stupid there was no point in replying to it because it's random tangents that don't mean anything.
Logged

Mizuki

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1106
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2008, 11:53:12 PM »

I seriously urge people to actually read the rules. I'm tired of having to delete posts that hold no bearing to the topic at hand.
Logged
2009-2010 maid cafe 2nd
2011 maid cafe staff
2013 maid cafe cohead
2014 - 2015 maid cafe staff

Steve.Young

  • Senior Moderator
  • ***
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1523
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2008, 11:59:50 PM »

To "clarify".

Eric was calling me ugly before 2005, which was a reference to my signature. In no way was it disrespect to me, just a jibe. Me and him are BFF's IRL. <3



I would agree with Pyron about culture being a large part of racism. Take Chinese people. Chinese people have a long and dated culture stemming upwards of 5000 years. Throughout those ages, we never necessarily agreed on philosophies and/or beliefs (Whether religious or political). We have a large diverse subculture within the overall Chinese culture. My parents have a dislike towards other Chinese people (You would think all Chinese people were alike, they aren't) from certain cultural backgrounds because of the behaviors and stereotypes associated with certain subcultures (This doesn't necessarily mean hate, but Racism doesn't need to be full blown hate.) Even when your Race is the same, even when you look just like the other person you are hating on, it is still possible to have some sort of racist feelings.
Logged
Director of Marketing
Staff Moderator - Fanime Forums.

Please PM me with any questions, comments, or concerns.

Steve[AT]Fanime[DOT]Com

ewu

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2553
  • Insert cool text here
    • View Profile
Re: Florida High School Keeps KKK Founder's Name
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2008, 06:41:09 AM »

Pyron - I recommend this for your Hitler ref:
yay! the Nazis had something going, lets kill everybody that isn't white, then we'll have equality!

Re: Steve, We BFF to the MAX, even more than Paris and her pack of hyenas

On to more serious matters....
Steve you remind me of something else. The Chinese are an ideal micro-chasm of what Nyxyin is talking about. A place where everybody looks the same. But the 56 Chinese minorities are oppressed, not by individual actions by social constructs that are ingrained in society. Only through extensive and legislated government actions can we keep these minorities from extinction and we can continue to enjoy the contribution of their culture to society. This is the result of institutionalized injustice and an appropriate way a government can and should address such inequalities.

If you look at the tensions between East Asians and maybe even Southeast Asians, these people look like each other, yet there is clear disdain and conflict between these people. They may be of the same race but the actions and results are just as ugly as racism.

In addition to the ACLU and NRA, I am certain that the League of Women Voters would not hesitate to say that sexism is still going strong. We have made great strides like woman's suffrage as well as anti-discrimination laws, but there is still a disparity in salaries, upper management positions, and still a general negative stigma about women in relation to men. The greatest form of sexism, rape, is still a very familiar aspect in life and almost always a male perpetrator against a woman.

The one form of hate that may, after so many years, be noted as almost gone is religious persecution by the Catholic church. (gay rights activists & pro-choicers please call me out here) They no longer venture into a country and "convert" people. But only that aspect or religious persecution, we gotta remember Sunni, Shia, Palestinian, Israeli, Muslim and the the entire western religious establishment... Hate is here to stay.

In the end, its not about racism per se, but ensuring that injustice is routed out from our society. The fight will never end.....

p.s. No on prop h8
Logged
Eric Wu
FanimeCon Chairman
FanimeCon Forums Moderator

ericATfanimeDOTcom
Pages: 1 [2]
 

Page created in 0.125 seconds with 25 queries.