Poll: Group Reg (please comment)

Started by ewu, November 09, 2008, 06:36:33 PM

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Shall Registration bring back Group Reg?

Yes (state why below)
No

ewu

The way we are thinking of group reg would only simplify pick up and do nothing to ease registration as we do need all that information for each person registering.
Eric Wu
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Rei-Rei

I'm not sure how this works, correct me if I'm wrong.  I think if you register as a group you should make the badges together and attach them to each other so when the designated person comes to get the badges, they could simply look for the designated persons name and have the entire group's badges, instead of having 20 people line up at the same time, therefore putting more pressure on the registration staff to look for all those 20 badges individually...
Though I'm not sure how effective that is, it probably would be if there were a lot of groups that registered.

Dumpling

IMHO, group registration would be wonderful. It just seems easier to have the group registrations back on rather than having all of us individually sign up for it. But I see what you guys are saying about how it might just take the same amount of time passing it out, however I do believe that it'd be easier if we only have one person standing in line. It just helps out with avoiding some ruckus while waiting in line. (does that make sense? x.+)

OGIGA

Okay, I really apologize if I offend anyone, but from reading this thread, I seriously think that whoever is organizing the registration process can't or won't get their act(s) together. Unfortunately, I haven't actually been to Fanime before so I guess my arguments can't carry much weight. However, I'll give reasons for my opinion.

No group registration: I say having the option is far better than not having the option. A group can choose to have everyone register separately, but there's still the option of registering as a group.

Only group leader may pick up badges: I don't see why this limitation needs to exist. I think the group leader may assign a member or any member(s) of their choice to pick up badges. They can pick up only their own, for them and their buddy, or for the whole group. I don't see what's so difficult. The assignment should be done before the convention, otherwise, members will just start going, "But my leader told me to come get it."

Payment: I'm assuming that people have to pay in advance. So what's so difficult about separate payments? Is form with account names or numbers too much to ask for when people submit their payment? I mean, people can pay all at once if it makes it easier for them, but how is it that difficult if partial payments come?

Finding 300 badges in a pile of 4000: Why in the world is it a pile?! Sort the badges! Okay, maybe it's already solved since it's so simple.

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Maybe the registration is done the old fashion way (paper and pencil). Now that makes life really difficult and I'll understand why everything is so difficult. But............ I think we're in the 2008/2009 and computers are everywhere. If you need the software to make the registration process run, I can probably write it for you guys. But out of 13,000+ people going, there's no way that I'm the only one capable of programming.

Please offer some constructive criticism (You can tell me that I'm stupid but you must say why). I'd also like someone to elaborate on what's so bad about group registration. What are the things beyond the staff's control?

Tony

Quote from: OGIGA on December 22, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
Only group leader may pick up badges: I don't see why this limitation needs to exist.
Single point of contact and distribution. There's no gain if a group registers as a unit, but picks up their badges individually.

QuotePayment: I'm assuming that people have to pay in advance. So what's so difficult about separate payments? Is form with account names or numbers too much to ask for when people submit their payment? I mean, people can pay all at once if it makes it easier for them, but how is it that difficult if partial payments come?
Basically, there are subtleties with our payment system that make handling partial payments non-trivial. If you've worked in a restaurant, the situation is similar with splitting a bill.

QuoteFinding 300 badges in a pile of 4000: Why in the world is it a pile?! Sort the badges! Okay, maybe it's already solved since it's so simple.
The badges are sorted. We're not THAT stupid!  ;D (But, during the fabrication, there IS a HUGE pile of badges to deal with.)

QuoteIf you need the software to make the registration process run, I can probably write it for you guys.
Very much appreciated! You should consider joining staff, if you're interested in solving large and complex problems. Email me, or [email protected]. It's a great experience, if you enjoy that kind of thing.

QuoteI'd also like someone to elaborate on what's so bad about group registration. What are the things beyond the staff's control?
The biggest problems are on the attendee side and keeping things straightforward and simple for them; even the simple one-person-one-registration system confuses people.

In short, there's two ways to handle groups: individuals loosely coupled, or as a single unit. Treated as individuals, the complexity skyrockets and the usefulness diminished; treated as a single unit, group registration raises difficult questions about ownership and distribution of the badges.

I can go into detail if you like - though I tend to disappear from the boards from long stretches...
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ewu

#25
I like "proprietary" here too....

although, "experience" is a good one too...
Eric Wu
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Steve.Young

#26
Quote from: OGIGA on December 22, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
Okay, I really apologize if I offend anyone, but from reading this thread, I seriously think that whoever is organizing the registration process can't or won't get their act(s) together. Unfortunately, I haven't actually been to Fanime before so I guess my arguments can't carry much weight. However, I'll give reasons for my opinion.

...

Quote
No group registration: I say having the option is far better than not having the option. A group can choose to have everyone register separately, but there's still the option of registering as a group.

Truth. It is better to have it as an option, keeping one's options open is always a good thing, but the problem is the attendees. Like tony said, if you register as a group but pick up as individuals, there is minimal gain for a lot of extra work.

Quote
Only group leader may pick up badges: I don't see why this limitation needs to exist. I think the group leader may assign a member or any member(s) of their choice to pick up badges. They can pick up only their own, for them and their buddy, or for the whole group. I don't see what's so difficult. The assignment should be done before the convention, otherwise, members will just start going, "But my leader told me to come get it."

There's variety of reasons. If you have been to Fanime, you know the biggest reason Group Reg is nice is because of the lines. This doesn't help the line congestion.

Quote
Payment: I'm assuming that people have to pay in advance. So what's so difficult about separate payments? Is form with account names or numbers too much to ask for when people submit their payment? I mean, people can pay all at once if it makes it easier for them, but how is it that difficult if partial payments come?

Partial payments being broken up logistically becomes harder to track as you might get some paypal payments, some checks, some money orders. It all adds up to extra work, for little extra benefit because you still have to sort through it all making sure the accounts in question gets credited the right amount, the payment amounts are all correct at the end, etc.

Quote
Finding 300 badges in a pile of 4000: Why in the world is it a pile?! Sort the badges! Okay, maybe it's already solved since it's so simple.

The staff spends a lot of time organizing the badges after they are made to ensure they can be found on the days of con registration pick ups.

Quote
Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Maybe the registration is done the old fashion way (paper and pencil). Now that makes life really difficult and I'll understand why everything is so difficult. But............ I think we're in the 2008/2009 and computers are everywhere. If you need the software to make the registration process run, I can probably write it for you guys. But out of 13,000+ people going, there's no way that I'm the only one capable of programming.

You aren't and we encourage you to join staff, however much of our staff is volunteers. They have lives in addition to their normal Fanime responsibilities, which doesn't allow them too much time to dabble unless the system is broke. I put it to you in this way. If your already working 50 hours a week at a paid job and a organization you volunteer for asks you to commit 20-30 hours a week on a project, you'd go shoot yourself. We try to improve the system year by year which, according to feedback, seems to have been working pretty well as time progresses. We've cut registration wait times significantly and the lines are much more manageable than previous years. We try to improve year by year, but overhauling the entire system to make group reg a little better = not worth the ridiculous amounts of time it would take.

Quote
Please offer some constructive criticism (You can tell me that I'm stupid but you must say why). I'd also like someone to elaborate on what's so bad about group registration. What are the things beyond the staff's control?

To be blunt...people. There's always going to be something that goes wrong beyond our control, but usually it's always our fault.
It's like working at a store doing customer service, even though the product isn't made by you or anything, through no fault of your own it's your fault the product is broken.

Them: "Help, I picked up my group of 50 people's badges (I'm not the group leader and won't take responsibility) but I lost them, I need you guys to replace them now (Cause somehow this is our fault)."           Staff: ..... @**&#&@*&*!(!(@(*@

Problem here: Irresponsibility. Group reg always has problems like this. Easier to have a single GROUP LEADER (AUTHORIZED BY THE WHOLE GROUP) be RESPONSIBLE for picking up the badges. If you have them pick up badges individually, it wastes people's time because

A) You still have to wait in line
B) Everyone has to wait in line rather than just one person
C) Minimal gain on time/energy spent.

Them:    "What do you mean the group didn't pay in full, everyone sent in their payments individually!!! Everyone SHOULD HAVE PAID!..."       Staff: Well, we added up all the payments we got and credited your account accordingly. Someone in your group fails.   Them: "WELL I YOU TO FIX THIS, WE WANT OUR BADGES"    Staff: ...huh?

Problem here: People sending in their payments separately become a nightmare to sort, but it is even more difficult come Con time when people are trying to figure out who out of the group didn't pay so that the group can force them to pay. Trying to find all the sources of a group reg's = time consuming and not worth the effort. Everyone pool the money upfront, give it all to one person, and pay it all at once. How much HARDER is this? Honestly, I think that just makes it easier for everyone.

My 2cents.
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OGIGA

Thanks for the comments, guys. I'm starting to get the feel of this. I'll be back to post something. Yeah, gotta go to sleep because yes, I do work full time. Fortunately, it's 40 hours rather than 50 per week.

FanFicGuru

Quote from: ewu on December 09, 2008, 07:58:22 PM
even if group reg was set up, the minimum limit would be at least a group of 5 and you would need to create the new accounts anyways.

That would be fine with me.

Steve pointed out the issue with group registration, but his 2 cents at the end is exactly what I think should happen with the group registration, and has been my experience in the past: The group leader pays for his group up-front, of course. Whether they all pay him beforehand or whatever, that's for the group leader to take care of. If you made it so that you couldn't file the registration completely until you had enough money for everyone on the group ticket, that would make it easier as well. For example, with a group of 5, they wouldn't be entered into the database until the $250 for their registrations was paid.

I can understand registration's hesitation about bringing back group registration, but with a few modifications you could bring it back for this year just to give it a shot couldn't you? I mean yeah, I'm biased because of course i want to register myself and my sisters as a group so that I can just come on Thursday myself and grab their badges...same goes for club leaders and pretty much anyone else posting in this thread.

So here is my final plea, almighty registration Lords: Please bring back group registration.
Fanime attendee since 2004
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OGIGA

I'm back. It looks like the main problem is that we're dealing with irresponsible people (aka. kids). They lose/break things, complain, and need people to bail them out all the time. We can deal with this several different ways:

1. Treat everybody like kids. Put limits and safeguards on everything.
- Pros: Things don't go wrong. Punishes the responsible people in general.
- Cons: Longer lines. Responsible adults have to suffer along. Rewards the irresponsible people in general.

2. Treat everybody like adults. Everybody needs to be responsible. Lost badge? Pay to get it replaced.
- Pros: Things move along a lot smoother and faster. More time to enjoy the convention. Rewards the responsible people in general.
- Cons: Lots of kids crying, unhappy customers. Seriously need a customer service desk for the people who did something stupid so they don't hold up the normal line. Punishes the irresponsible people in general.

3. Treat kids like kids and adults like adults. Adults can do group registration, have other adults pick up badges for them, etc. Kids have to be in the slow kids' line where the whole group has to get in line.
- Pros: Adults get in faster. Rewards the adults and punishes the kids.
- Cons: Kids get in slower. Coordination among staff needs to be really good. Adults aren't necessarily responsible and kids aren't necessarily irresponsible.


Personally, I would opt for #2 or #3 because I consider myself a responsible adult. However, I think that most attendees are going to be irresponsible kids so #1 actually makes more sense. :(

QuotePartial payments being broken up logistically becomes harder to track as you might get some paypal payments, some checks, some money orders. It all adds up to extra work, for little extra benefit because you still have to sort through it all making sure the accounts in question gets credited the right amount, the payment amounts are all correct at the end, etc.
Honestly, I don't know how the organizers tracks the payments. It all just boils down to data-entry. (I can already imagine what the database tables would look like.) Yes, there would be more items to enter and more checks to deposit. But beyond that, I really don't see what the other difficulties are. Yes, I'm assuming that the software to track this is (or will be) all in order.

What I wrote in the above paragraph would be the cost. The benefit is that it'll be more convenient for some people. Does benefit > cost? The organizers can decide. Either way, I think a bill/email should be sent out anyway in case something went wrong or someone didn't pay. Stop accepting payments a month (or whatever) before the convention and only take payments at the convention from then on. You know, things get lost in the mail, checks bounce, etc.

QuoteThere's variety of reasons. If you have been to Fanime, you know the biggest reason Group Reg is nice is because of the lines. This doesn't help the line congestion.
I will offer my suggestion. Feel free to critique it. Have two lines. One line for groups and the other line for individuals. (You guys probably do it already.) The leader may authorize group members to pick up the group's badges. The assignment/authorization must be done beforehand so people/kids don't spontaneously go, "My leader told me to come pick them up." It's the leader's responsibility to allow only responsible group members to pick up badges. If desired, only offer this option to leaders aged whatever (18? 21? 25?) and up. Have a "customer service" desk for the unlucky groups who chose someone irresponsible to pick up badges so they can wait. Don't know who picked them up? That's why customer service desks are useful. That might actually help some people "grow up".

Benefits: Group pick-up will be faster than if only leaders are allowed to pick up badges.
Costs: A tiny bit more programming.

By the way, I really suggest charging a fee to replace lost badges.

Quote...we encourage you to join staff, however much of our staff is volunteers. They have lives in addition to their normal Fanime responsibilities...
I'm honored to receive such an offer. Because of the reasons you stated, I won't be able to volunteer. :( Not to mention, I'm about 3 hours away from San Jose. Seriously though, I started doing programming when I was in high school and this convention is in San Jose, where most of California's geeks are. A lot of programmers are now unemployed too so I'm sure you can find a good deal nearby. I'm willing to help, but I can't help as much as I want to... unless I get laid off.  :P That would be bad news.

ewu

Working off option #1:

Quote from: OGIGA on December 23, 2008, 07:42:36 PM
Honestly, I don't know how the organizers tracks the payments. It all just boils down to data-entry.

Our system does support multiple payments but there are software and logistical considerations, but also let's just say partial-payments are not too compatible with homosapiens. Quite frankly multiple payments get lost or forgotten, be it our fault, the USPS's fault, or the members fault. A single payment allows us to make it a simple digital process...yes or no. No need to deal with angry e-mails and pissed off people at pickup. As much as they are able to make the difference up at-con, I don't think many would be willing to pay for something that they think they have paid fully for. Not to mention, no need to refund the partial payments.....BUCoW.....Big Ugly Can of Worms....
QuoteHave two lines.
That is conceivable, but it will be difficult. We will consider it. Unfortunately, we already have two LONG lines. I was there for the fire marshal inspection. They initially only allowed ONE line. Concessions were made for two, but three would make for more logistical issues. We shall see with this one.

QuoteI won't be able to volunteer. :(
You know, we could always use help. My second is in Davis and one of the chairs are in Citrus Heights. Not a slight distance, but most work is done on the intarweb and only occasional meetings are needed until the weeks before con.

I encourage it.
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OGIGA

I see your point about the single payment thing. Keeping people from doing anything other than simple will keep things from getting confusing and/or complicated. Again, it ends up rewarding the irresponsible (in general), but most attendees are probably in that category anyway.

Quote from: ewu on December 23, 2008, 08:12:31 PM
QuoteHave two lines.
That is conceivable, but it will be difficult. We will consider it. Unfortunately, we already have two LONG lines. I was there for the fire marshal inspection. They initially only allowed ONE line. Concessions were made for two, but three would make for more logistical issues. We shall see with this one.
Wow, odd. I can't figure out why 2 lines would be more hazardous than 1. Can you elaborate more on this?

QuoteYou know, we could always use help. My second is in Davis and one of the chairs are in Citrus Heights. Not a slight distance, but most work is done on the intarweb and only occasional meetings are needed until the weeks before con.

I encourage it.
Hmm, I'll think about it some more. What can I possibly do to help though? Keep in mind that I still have never been to Fanime or any other anime convention.

ewu

Quote from: OGIGA on December 23, 2008, 11:04:10 PM
Wow, odd. I can't figure out why 2 lines would be more hazardous than 1. Can you elaborate more on this?

You said you have not been to con, so its a bit hard, but here's the gist. On one side there is plenty of space, but on the other there were office doors that needed to be clear, emergency exits clear, no obstacles like stanchions, and an ATM that needed access. The entire lower concourse needed to be clear for an evacuation, so lines could not be on the window side. We were later allowed to enter 3' into the concourse for the line if we absolutely needed it, but we didn't. The stanchions needed to use caution tape so that in the case of an evacuation, it could be ripped and would not be a tripping hazard as rope would be. The lines needed to be metered such that the passageways and emergency exits were not blocked by people in a line at anytime. Essentially it looks nice, clear and open, but the fire marshal looks at what would happen in the case of emergency and people were not thinking but on instinct mode.

Oh the joys of planing a con:) This is just for 2 lines. We had a third for musicfest and meet the guests tickets. We may consider adding another line, but you understand our hesitations.....
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Steve.Young

And as someone who has to do line control for all of these things, I will say that Lines = the Root of all evil/hate/ill-will towards humanity @ con.
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Sen

OGIGA: I would suggest that you attend our Con and give us more feedback afterwards. It seems like you'd have some good things to say and it would be better if you have seen how we work. You're always welcome to join staff. We're actually more short on man power at con than programming power.  ;D

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Quote from: Sen on December 24, 2008, 12:22:52 AM
OGIGA: I would suggest that you attend our Con and give us more feedback afterwards. It seems like you'd have some good things to say and it would be better if you have seen how we work. You're always welcome to join staff. We're actually more short on man power at con than programming power.  ;D

FanFicGuru: The Reg Lords are churning.  ;D

*prepares a tribute to appease the registration Gods*
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Erin

Quote from: Steve.Young on December 24, 2008, 12:04:19 AM
And as someone who has to do line control for all of these things, I will say that Lines = the Root of all evil/hate/ill-will towards humanity @ con.

I have to do lines too!  It's ok we suffer together :D
Erin
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gackt_2003

unless i missed a part reading all this, if group registration happens, will there be a discount? or is it still the same price for everyone? this is only my 2nd fanime [if i even go] so i don't know much about past group registrations.
ex: PMX had a group reg of 5+ ppl and 20% discount off total price. ALA had a group reg of 15+ ppl and the price goes down to $25 per person.


ewu

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gackt_2003

Quote from: ewu on January 05, 2009, 11:23:34 AM
no, it will be the same rate.
oh ok. has it always been the same? if yes, why not give a group discount? if not, did it not work out?