Seventh Grader Sues School Over Right to Wear Pro-Life T-Shirt

[ewu]

I could swear Pyron was a stalker if not for Kat's facebook link on the profile...

There should be opinions and free speech in schools, but I don't think there is a carte blanche right to say or convey anything you want, especially in an educational environment. I think this walks the line on what should or should not be permitted in the school. In the end, it is up to the discretion of administrators until a court rules on it. Granted the court is a little conservative right now, but they agree that if it disrupts the school's mission of education then there is discretion to limit free speech rights. http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/

[Kuromi_Kat]

I could swear Pyron was a stalker if not for Kat's facebook link on the profile...

what did you mean by this ewu? O.o

[ewu]

what did you mean by this ewu? O.o

That he would go so far as to look up your facebook to support his argument, but it being on your forum profile makes him less stalkerish.


But in the end Pyron is right that free thinking should be fostered in school and encouraged. However, Kat conveys that the shirt may have crossed the line; Pyron has said this in an earlier post too. The first amendment clearly has limits, where that line is will and should be interpreted by the courts.

[Kuromi_Kat]

If everyone is entitled to my opinion, then why did you just shoot mine down. I do not believe school is a good place for an opinion. Especially one so controversial as abortion. And please do not swear at me.

Oh god... did you just try to use this logic?

The idea of everyone can have an opinion means that you are allowed to speak it and have it. It does in no way protect you from allowing others to comment on your opinions.

School is the biggest outlet children have. It's where they form ideas and opinions of the outside world. You realize, the point of school is to nurture things like growing up in society, cliques, politics and opinions. Although school teaches "education" the major key point is that it prepares you for adult life... You're saying that they should remove this aspect from schools? That they should remain blind and innocent until we throw them out to college where they will have these opinions shoved down their throats?

But let's play the parallel game.

Yay, I looked at your facebook. You have piercings, dress a very specific style, and there's common themes within your interests. Are you saying, you displayed none of this in school? Your long hair itself is a statement and an opinion that was displayed in school. It was an outlet, and people judged you based on it. Or did you tie it up and put on a wig? Did you conform your dress completely and dress nothing like you wanted to... as to not put out an opinion or voice when you were at school?

Things like having opinions on pro-life is not very different than that. It's not very different than the nerdy kids walking around with D&D books, or the kids that had Jesus fish on their cars. They're all opinions and they're all statements. Or are you stating that Catholic children are not allowed to be driven to school, or drive to school with a Jesus fish on their car? That kids that draw the anarchy symbol on their folders, and wear pins on their backpacks with all kind of punk slogans, should be banned from school. The "Go Green" people should clearly be suspended since having opinions at school is something that shouldn't be. That kids proud of their relatives in the armed forces displaying it with their support of the military should be forced to remove all support, because that opinion shouldn't be at school according to you.

The problem isn't opinions... people should have opinions.

Pyron you are missing the point ENTIRELY! -.-Freedom of religion is a different thing. Its not even the focus on the subject other than some religious people are "pro-life". You ARE ALLOWED to have opinions. I NEVER SAID YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO! I am quite the opinionated person myself.
Two- HOW you viewed ANYTHING on my FaceBook is beyond me, I have that thing set to private. How I dress is NONE of your concern. I dress like many other kids my age. Graphic (usually anime, or video game) tee, maybe a band tee, pants and converse. I dont dress to impress OR make a statement. I toss on whatever is clean at the moment. And so what I have piercings, I also am planning on tattoos, again NOT to make a statement, or anything. It is because I like body art. I think it is a beautiful form of art. If you wish to go on thinking otherwise thats fine.

Back on track, what does this have to do with the "Pro-Life" law suit? My whole argument focus is THAT SHIRT. Not how I dress, not how you or anyone else dresses; just that shirt. So you can go and play your "Parallel Game" but make a point that is relevant to the subject. O.o

[PyronIkari]

Pyron you are missing the point ENTIRELY! -.-Freedom of religion is a different thing. Its not even the focus on the subject other than some religious people are "pro-life". You ARE ALLOWED to have opinions. I NEVER SAID YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO! I am quite the opinionated person myself.
Two- HOW you viewed ANYTHING on my FaceBook is beyond me, I have that thing set to private. How I dress is NONE of your concern. I dress like many other kids my age. Graphic (usually anime, or video game) tee, maybe a band tee, pants and converse. I dont dress to impress OR make a statement. I toss on whatever is clean at the moment. And so what I have piercings, I also am planning on tattoos, again NOT to make a statement, or anything. It is because I like body art. I think it is a beautiful form of art. If you wish to go on thinking otherwise thats fine.

Back on track, what does this have to do with the "Pro-Life" law suit? My whole argument focus is THAT SHIRT. Not how I dress, not how you or anyone else dresses; just that shirt. So you can go and play your "Parallel Game" but make a point that is relevant to the subject. O.o

I'm not missing the point entirely... you are. And this was made incredibly obvious by your PM's. I didn't judge you at all. Yet you keep saying that I did, and I am. And that I'm insulting you. Please point out where exactly I insult you.

And then you backpedal in this post of yours.

Freedom of religion is not something different at all. Frankly it's exactly the same. It's self expression and opinion. You stated that "opinions do not belong in school". I pointed out examples of how they are regularly in school, and belong in school. How you dress is indeed none of my concern, and frankly I don't give a crap at all how you dress, but it was relevant to this conversation. Expression is part of opinion. There is a huge debate about this, and frankly your mentality isn't that much different from them at all.

Where am I getting at? School uniforms. Many people believer that every school should have a uniform code.

You had no focus. Because we already pretty much confirmed that the school took action because of the graphic image on the shirt, and not because of the stance the shirt was taking. YOU then stated that opinions don't belong in school, which had jack nothing to do with the shirt in itself. If she wants to support pro-life by wearing a shirt, then more power to her. She crossed the line when the shirt contained graphic images that others were forced to see.

Opinion is about your self, not others. You can't force people to swallow your opinion. There's a difference between walking around in a "Homosexual marriage shirt" and Stopping people and yelling at them and telling them to support homosexual marriage out of the blue.

Not *IF* I can predict correctly, you are now thinking "well isn't that what you're doing now, forcing us to listen to your opinion...

In which case I say, no. I'm presenting it, and proving how my opinion is supported by reasoning over your opinion which is... just an opinion. But more importantly... you gave up the right of not having people argue points and reasoning the moment you posted in this section of the forums... that's the point of this forum. Serious discussions, debates, and points of reasoning. If you don't like being told your opinion is wrong, or you hate being shown that what you think is stupid, then don't post in here.

[Kuromi_Kat]

I'm not missing the point entirely... you are.

Not even. You keep going on tangents about freedom of religion, and other forms of freedom of speech. Stuff like drawing an anarchy symbol on a folder, army symbols, Catholicism symbols and going green are a LITTLE bit different than Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice. Those two are controversial subjects.

As I keep TRYING to state, there is a time and a place for opinions this controversial. School is not that time or place to state that kind of opinion.

As ewu said

The first amendment clearly has limits, where that line is will and should be interpreted by the courts.

I agree 100%

[PyronIkari]

Not even. You keep going on tangents about freedom of religion, and other forms of freedom of speech. Stuff like drawing an anarchy symbol on a folder, army symbols, Catholicism symbols and going green are a LITTLE bit different than Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice. Those two are controversial subjects.

As I keep TRYING to state, there is a time and a place for opinions this controversial. School is not that time or place to state that kind of opinion.

Really. You honestly think that Pro-life/Pro-choice is controversial, but religion and what not in schools isn't? The religion issue has been going on for decades, and more people get the crap beat out of them, there's more law-suits, and more problems that stem from religion in school than will ever come up with Pro-life/Pro-choice.

But freedoms are freedoms. You're saying that they're not the same, but they are. Because they're freedoms of expressions, it doesn't matter the "magnitude". If you disallow people to have freedoms to express their opinion in one way, then where do you draw the line for it? So you're saying, because "Pro-life/Pro-choice" is "serious" then it shouldn't be allowed? Religion is definitely serious to others. Dress is serious to some people, and many things you may deem as "not close to the same level", hundreds of others will say are BIGGER deals.

So even if you worded it completely horribly and didn't mean

there is a time and place for an opinion. School is not one.

You're still putting standards on what kids can and cannot express while they're in school.

If you can't follow the line of logic, and think what I talked about are "tangents" you seriously need to not be posting in this section of the forum.

Catholic symbols, going green, the military, are ALL controversial subjects.

[Mizuki]

Kuromi_Kat I recommend actually doing research on what you're talking about, and knowing what you're talking about first before you post in this section of the boards, or you're targeted by PyronIkari. I've just skimmed the posts (just because I've been REALLY busy the past couple of days) but I recommend stopping, you're going nowhere.

[Liquid]

This thread is still alive? I could have swore it was aborted back in July....but now here we are in the third trimester and I think somebody is about to have a cow. :D

So, what have we learned here today kids? Let's review:

1.) Speech is free.
2.) Graphic imagery is not.
3.) It's dumb to argue about arguing.
4.) It's dumb to argue about what is controversal and what is not.
5.) Don't ressurect dead threads.
6.) Don't disrespect Mikey about agreeing with him.
7.) Don't try to argue with Mikey and expect to not get offended by the differing opinions.