Started by zevBlue, January 23, 2010, 08:25:31 PM
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Quote from: zevBlue on January 23, 2010, 08:25:31 PMI have read the various objections to having a "butler" type cafe as counterpart and I have to say that I think the reason why people are still bringing it up is because the objections aren't all that compelling. I see people getting hung up on what a butler cafe is or isn't, but I don't see anyone demanding that such a venue stick to some rigid definition of what is done elsewhere. There is an obvious interest in having a place where nicely dressed bishounen-type male servers treat their clients in a fun/teasing manner. It seems like a missed opportunity. Statements that such a venue would lack appeal to anyone but the female attendees make some major assumptions as well. First, there are many, many events at con that are geared towards the hetero-male attendees and no one ever worries about them appealing to females. Second, you are completely dismissing non-hetero male attendees or males who aren't all hung up on proving their masculinity and would go anyways to hang out with their friends who are checking it out. Third, lots of males would go just to see all the female attendees there, kinda like signing up for a class where you know most of the students will be women. So, if you just aren't interested, think it's too much work etc. I get it. But the fact that it seems like the whole idea of anyone doing a butler-type cafe is being dismissed is I think why you are finding the issue repeating.
Quote from: zevBlue on February 01, 2010, 02:30:29 AMThere's a lot to respond to here so I'll try to condense it. Authenticity - This one is a manner of preference. There are those who think con activities should directly reflect what happens in Japan. However, I don't see why the interaction can't have more fluidity as opposed to straight up imitation. They influence us and we influence them. I mean certainly you don't see a lot of Trekkie types in Japanese cons but I don't see anyone refusing them entry here. I understand that you feel it is important to recreate the experience of Japanese culture. To put it more bluntly, why is it not ok unless we are directly ripping off Japanese culture? This is probably a question better applied to con activities in general. I fail to see why you can't have something that that is Japanese-influenced. Why is that automatically "mocking" or a "bastardization"? Why can't that be a homage? A rigid imitation strikes me as uncomfortably close to fetishizing and actually creates distance with another culture as opposed to bridging it.
QuoteAppeal - This one strikes a cord because it seems to be a VERY gendered argument. Girls can enjoy cute girls but boys can't/won't enjoy cute boys. That's how it is and we don't care to (try to) change it, or that's how it is supposed to be for accuracy. Also as far as the actual number of women who like anime being small, well just a cursory glance around the con seems to contradict this. I suspect that like gaming, there is a certain stigma that makes them less likely to admit it in casual interaction but that is a another issue.
QuoteFrankly, I am not that invested in this specific issue. Given the specific framework you propose of staying in a theme some of the arguments make sense, but that's only if one accepts that framework. My comment was more a response to dismissive tone used and the unwillingness to think outside the box. Apparently this is de rigueur. I just think it is unfortunate that there isn't more flexibility as opposed to copying. That being said, I'm willing to let the issue rest because we are obviously coming from it from completely different viewpoints. Also, I brought it up in that thread only because the other one was locked.
QuoteSo then I invite you to run a butler cafe yourself at fanime. E-mail the chair and tell him your ideas and that you will be head of the department, and do it.
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 01, 2010, 03:17:19 AMWe have a maid cafe, and it's of our own, while fitting the definition of what makes a maid cafe. The only way where a butler cafe would work without taking anything away from the cafe we already have would be to change it outside of its already strict and rigid definition.
QuoteAnd I NEVER said that there are more males than girls at conventions.
QuoteNo matter what is said, the demographic is still significantly smaller... AND it's also less entertaining, especially if it only caters to the ones who enjoy it. Even if there are exceptions, in the general pov, you're excluding people with a butler cafe, whereas a maid cafe is for everyone. Don't assume that this is a casualty of "narrow-mindedness". What you're saying only addresses the tip of an iceberg.
QuoteI've mentioned already though, to better satisfy our attendees, we will think of some possibilities for future plans. Afterall, we and our maids do this out of pure fun and desire to make our cafe enjoyable. If I receive enough demand, I will bring it up during a meeting and see if anyone is supportive of this idea enough to invest the money into making it happen, otherwise, as we've all mentioned many many times before...
Quote from: slimchance on February 11, 2010, 11:41:40 AM Talking like this on forum between couple people won't do much help.
Quote from: Jerry on February 11, 2010, 11:56:58 AMIronically this how the Maid Cafe actually started. but to each is own. That and of course going thru proper channels to get this "ideal" off the ground. :)
Quote from: Tony on February 11, 2010, 01:11:39 PMYeah - my bad on that one.I actually tried to get the Maid Cafe idea killed. ^^;The discussion on the forums at the time was how it would be awesome to get cute girls to dress up in maid outfits and serve customers. Lots of talk about costumes and what dessert to serve, but no real clue about how to actually *run* the event. I got pretty annoyed. Thinking it would bring a reality check to the forums, I asked Craige/head of finance to check the thread and use his curmudgeon ways to bring the kids to their senses.And then the guy goes and funds the project, getting it off to a start. ^^;... but that's beside the point. There are two key pieces to the story:1. It took someone with initiative, and it took someone from upper staff, to make it happen. It takes a leader to get these started, and then someone from Fanime to buy into the idea. Discussion can work - but only if it has direction.2. The Maid Cafe as it was conceived is not how it is run today. It was fun but relatively purposeless, and it took Jun to form the philosophical backbone - the ideals - that it has today. I think it works well in the sense that Maid Cafe is run by people who know what it is, and what it isn't.
Quote from: Touya no Miko on February 11, 2010, 09:19:32 PMJust to inform you, a Maid cafe isn't just targeted towards males. Females and kids go to maid cafes just for the fun of it.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 11, 2010, 06:24:16 PMBut for those that refuse to accept this... I'll be at the cafe, I'll be dressed nicely (not in a butler uniform) and you can say hi to me if I walk by. I may respond to you if I'm not busy, as I will be busy 99% of the time. That good enough?
Quote from: Mizuki on February 11, 2010, 10:48:45 PMQuote from: Touya no Miko on February 11, 2010, 09:19:32 PMJust to inform you, a Maid cafe isn't just targeted towards males. Females and kids go to maid cafes just for the fun of it.Uhhhhhh, and who said that it was just targeted for males? I'm sure you can read a ton of the recent maid cafe threads and see that the staff even acknowledges that! Heck, where did we even explicitly say that? Nowhere. The Maid Cafe higher ups know this, they've been to maid cafes in Japan, so I have no idea why you feel the need to point it out.
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