we're going to be holding a fighting game panel for newbies who'd be interested?

[Lawliet]

Hey guys. Last year was amazing for he fighting game scene. Street fighter, blazblue(s), soul calibur, tekken, etc, etc. And we figured it would be a good year to hold a fighting game basics panel. We've got everything worked out and now going to request panel time.... but we have no clue how interested the community is. I was going to request 100-150 room to be on the safe side but I don't want to be greedy and take up too much space. So some help on estimating how many peeps will show by fourm interest would be really helpful.

Thanks guys.

[JTchinoy]

What exactly are your credentials for each of these games if you don't mind me asking.  Are you good at the basics for each of the games that you're trying to teach?

[Lawliet]

I'm alright at them. But its not really panel that teaches specific games.

The panel is more like a introduction to fighting games. Gameplay mechanics, character play type, combo concepts, overview of popular fighting games and their community, etc, etc.

[PyronIkari]

I'm alright at them. But its not really panel that teaches specific games.

The panel is more like a introduction to fighting games. Gameplay mechanics, character play type, combo concepts, overview of popular fighting games and their community, etc, etc.

But these vary so greatly between games that you can't really say that it's an overview. The combo system in LIKE games are totally different let alone between totally different fighting games. SC4 combo system is nothing like Tekken, which is nothing like VF. SF4 is nothing like Blaz, which is nothing like Arcana etc. etc. etc.

So what would you actually talk about?

Like if you're talking KOF, there's really not many play styles in it at all. KOF revolves around rush down, even turtle characters like Kensou in 98, you only turtle to create an opening to rush down. SF in general is about zoning and footsies, and explaining that alone would take more than an hour to do. I'd be willing to help out(though I don't think I have time to be part of the panel), if you want to ask or expand on ideas for this, but at this point, I don't see what you're trying to convey.

[Mizuki]

I'm willing to help, but as PyronIkari stated, what are you focusing on? Every game is different, even basic "fundamentals" are not the same, such as footsies in ST, and footsies in Melty Blood. I'd also like to know credentials too, saying that you're "alright" sadly means nothing unless there's results that state that.

[JTchinoy]

If you get a reputable player from each game, this would be plausible.  I honestly don't think an amateur can effectively convey the concepts of basics for each game.  I think you should rethink your approach to this idea and present it again when you're ready.

[Lawliet]

Except it's not that different. Most fighting games have universal inputs. Fireballs, dragon punches, half circle backs. Most fighting games use same notations for combos as well. The combo concepts are also more or less the same as well. Most fighting games haves moves that can either be jump/dash/special canceled.

And every game has a different archetypes as well. Even though most SNK titles push rushdown you have grapplers, zoners and characters that can lead to huge combos via punish/counter.

This panel would be for newbies. The recent surge in the fighting game scenes have brought in a lot of new players who aren't that familiar with simple mechanics. This panel isn't for people who know what frame counting or can recite tier lists off the top of their head. This panel would be for novices.

Not trying to be rude or anything but seems like you guys are being really negative about it for no real reason

[LordKefka]

^ can't they just umm... read the instruction manual? :V

[Lawliet]

No they cannot. Because then this panel would be pointless.

That and instructions don't talk about notations, character types, arcade courtesy, advance combo concepts/move properties and video examples how a certain type of character should be played.

[PyronIkari]

No they cannot. Because then this panel would be pointless.

That and instructions don't talk about notations, character types, arcade courtesy, advance combo concepts/move properties and video examples how a certain type of character should be played.

These things are beyond the basics though. If a character doesn't understand moves and hit boxes, they won't understand what's going on in a video.

2 in 1s you can convey, but that can be conveyed in like... 10 seconds. I still don't get what you're going to talk about. Arcade courtesy? fffffff if you followed the fighting game scene, then you know that this has been a topic of discussion about how gamers today are all lovey dovey instead of competitive.

Character types... the thing with that is, that there are no set character types, more play style. I can take any character and play them differently than the "type" you would associate with them. Gief is a grappler, but that doesn't mean you don't/can't/shouldn't turtle with him. Ryu is a zoning character, but Valle rushes down like crazy with him, while Choi rarely does. A turtle Rufus is just as scary as a rush down Rufus as J.Wong proved last Evo. Floe plays Sagat like a rush down character instead of throwing tigers all day, he'd rather be throwing knees in your face and causing you to be scared to press a button.

Advance combo concepts are rarely used, seeing that they usually deviate from practicality and are more for flash/style. Unless you're talking about things like links, instead of two-in-ones, just frames for 3d games, and juggles, but these will be way too advance for a beginner to grasp.

Again, I don't want to discourage, but you're all over the place with what you're saying. You want this to be aimed towards beginners, but does that mean, people that know nothing about fighting games, people just starting to play them, or people that understand basics already?

I've been playing fighting games for like... 20 years now. I grew up playing against my cousins, and since 10 have been playing at SHGL alongside Valle, Watson, and other top players. 100% honest, you learn more from playing for an hour than being told something for an hour. Without actually moving the stick/pad and pressing the buttons, the concepts don't make sense. I can explain a link, but without pressing it and feeling the difference in timing, it's almost impossible to understand. Asking questions about something they don't understand is much better than telling them that "this should be like this", especially when in fighting games, it doesn't have to be like that.

And while there are universal concepts, they still vary in such a degree per game, that they're almost completely different. Explaining reversals and meaties in KOF or SF4 compared to MvC2 compared to ST is seriously like comparing night and day. Yeah the concept is the same "doing a special move while in block stun or while getting up from the ground" but how reversals work, usage, and properties are so different. In a game like KOF, you RARELY ever do reversals, and wake up moves are rarely done because 90% of the time you'll get hit out of them. In ST, reversals are incredibly strict most people can't even reversal out of tick grabs when they see it coming.

I have talked about doing a fighting game panel for like 6 years now, and I really really really can't see how it'd work out well.

EDIT: talking to a bunch of players right now. Thanks to trag and zuggzugg and a bunch of others.

Talking about systems and actual game play is kinda impossible considering the time and amount of games. So they think they best way to approach this is about theory, and not about actual game play.

The first thing I tell people when they're getting into games is that "don't mash. You have to learn what to do in situations and do that, not randomly press buttons hoping it'll do something".

From there, cover the basic idea. In fighting games, you're trying to control flow. From the start there is a basic opener, and the game moves from there. You want to create situations where you can hit the opponent, and force them to open. The basic of the basic of this is displayed by... throwing a projectile, and getting the opponent to jump at you, then hitting them with an anti-air attack.

From there, talk about blocking. Yes... blocking. How to block and why you want to block. Blocking is an art, and being able to block well is not easy to do.

That alone should cover an hour with questions.

[Mizuki]

Except it's not that different. Most fighting games have universal inputs. Fireballs, dragon punches, half circle backs. Most fighting games use same notations for combos as well. The combo concepts are also more or less the same as well. Most fighting games haves moves that can either be jump/dash/special canceled.

And every game has a different archetypes as well. Even though most SNK titles push rushdown you have grapplers, zoners and characters that can lead to huge combos via punish/counter.

This panel would be for newbies. The recent surge in the fighting game scenes have brought in a lot of new players who aren't that familiar with simple mechanics. This panel isn't for people who know what frame counting or can recite tier lists off the top of their head. This panel would be for novices.

Not trying to be rude or anything but seems like you guys are being really negative about it for no real reason

But most general archetype of character don't act the same as they do across the different titles, and can be played differently even in the same game (what PyronIkari stated) It seems like what you want to present in this panel won't help much to those who are really new and want to learn. I can teach someone how to play ST way more easily if they could touch the game and actually play it, while I give them pointers, even watching match videos are even a lot more helpful than spoken word. I thought about doing this awhile back, and just after thinking about it, there would seriously be no way to do a general panel. Now if you were to aim at a specific game and only that game, maybe even a certain series (i.e. ST2/SF4, Pre tag-system kof, Tekken) then it might work, but even then there's just way too much to cover, and most things could be solved with playing with someone who knows what they're doing and watching match vids, occasionally asking questions on a forum or something.

[Elimeno]

Lawliet I can see where you're coming from on this.  I think the problem here is the people here in the forums are looking at it from a seasoned/tourney player point of view; which wants technical breakdowns etc.  From what i'm assuming what  you want to do is show people that these games exist, very much like a friend inviting you to their house Give them the basics for what they need to start playing, and hopefullly have fun. Because it finally is a fight game panel the seasoned players will drop by to see what this shindig is about and be able to give pointers for people that are interested in knowing more.  Thats just my two cents take it or leave it.

[PyronIkari]

Lawliet I can see where you're coming from on this.  I think the problem here is the people here in the forums are looking at it from a seasoned/tourney player point of view; which wants technical breakdowns etc.  From what i'm assuming what  you want to do is show people that these games exist, very much like a friend inviting you to their house Give them the basics for what they need to start playing, and hopefullly have fun. Because it finally is a fight game panel the seasoned players will drop by to see what this shindig is about and be able to give pointers for people that are interested in knowing more.  Thats just my two cents take it or leave it.

I get the point completely, and I do that all the time. I help out new people to fighting games, and invite them over/go over to their place, break games down to them and teach them from ground zero.

The problem is that, after a 5-6 hour session just one on one, they're walking away with a very very very basic knowledge of how the game works, and that's only that specific game. Basically by the end of that day, they understand not to mash and randomly press buttons. They've learned what each button does for one character, and how to block high/low, why you should/shouldn't jump and how you're trying to use a strategy to land hits. Combos aren't even really brought up yet.

This is going to be 1 hour, spanning all fighting games, to a huge audience. In that time, you won't be able to explain really anything to them except 1 basic concept. Maybe blocking and "don't press buttons randomly".

Like I said, I really want to do a panel like this, but it's too hard and pointless. I think pointing them to srk/tekkenzaibatsu/8wayrun etc. is better for them to read about basics and if they want to learn more, to ask someone.

[Elimeno]

Lawliet I can see where you're coming from on this.  I think the problem here is the people here in the forums are looking at it from a seasoned/tourney player point of view; which wants technical breakdowns etc.  From what i'm assuming what  you want to do is show people that these games exist, very much like a friend inviting you to their house Give them the basics for what they need to start playing, and hopefullly have fun. Because it finally is a fight game panel the seasoned players will drop by to see what this shindig is about and be able to give pointers for people that are interested in knowing more.  Thats just my two cents take it or leave it.

I get the point completely, and I do that all the time. I help out new people to fighting games, and invite them over/go over to their place, break games down to them and teach them from ground zero.

The problem is that, after a 5-6 hour session just one on one, they're walking away with a very very very basic knowledge of how the game works, and that's only that specific game. Basically by the end of that day, they understand not to mash and randomly press buttons. They've learned what each button does for one character, and how to block high/low, why you should/shouldn't jump and how you're trying to use a strategy to land hits. Combos aren't even really brought up yet.

This is going to be 1 hour, spanning all fighting games, to a huge audience. In that time, you won't be able to explain really anything to them except 1 basic concept. Maybe blocking and "don't press buttons randomly".

Like I said, I really want to do a panel like this, but it's too hard and pointless. I think pointing them to srk/tekkenzaibatsu/8wayrun etc. is better for them to read about basics and if they want to learn more, to ask someone.

even from the extended amount of time it takes to not randomly mash buttons, why not just let him have at it?  Like you said yourself you do want a panel like this, you're not running it and you're not losing anything from it if he runs it, so why shoot him down?  I'd rather have a spark than no flame at all if you ask me; at least people will see a mash up of something they could be interested in and slight direction, and lets face it the arcade scene is nowhere near where it was/should be so why shoo people away from the community?  Just because he's not deemed "qualified" doesn't mean he can't show what he knows.  And it's not like people take what other people teach them and do it exactly the same way every time, through play they'll find out what works for them especially with something as diverse as a fight game.

[PyronIkari]

Because it could be counter productive.

Some people it may ignite flames, others it may douse. People go in expecting to learn something, and walk out learning close to nothing, which would be a huge turn off to many people. Really, think about it. You are like "Oh a fighting game panel, that sounds awesome let's go". And then they talk about blocking, and not hitting buttons randomly... they talk about jumping and touch on cancels, but for like 5 minutes so you don't get it... then, the end.

Would that really make you feel like playing and learning more?

[Elimeno]

Because it could be counter productive.

Some people it may ignite flames, others it may douse. People go in expecting to learn something, and walk out learning close to nothing, which would be a huge turn off to many people. Really, think about it. You are like "Oh a fighting game panel, that sounds awesome let's go". And then they talk about blocking, and not hitting buttons randomly... they talk about jumping and touch on cancels, but for like 5 minutes so you don't get it... then, the end.

Would that really make you feel like playing and learning more?

Touche my good sir, it does kind of feel like a high risk situation when you put it in that light; and 5 mins on cancels...yeah... I guess as you said in a previous post possibly if they focused on one game it would work ok, or try to hit up the newer games across a few panels instead of one mash up.  Just to add, the panel learning doesnt have to end with the panel Fanime does host a lovely 24 hour arcade, which a lot of the games mentioned are hosted;  I guess I'm just saying it could work if dedication was there

[gwhsanimeclub]

Oh yes I am definitely interested in one. the majority of my group knows how and i feel ridiculous being the only who's never played a proper fighting video game. when's it going to be?

[Mizuki]

Let us hope never.

[michiko nakano]

yeah, it's good this guy's trying to think of panels to do since panels are a great way to contribute to the con, but i think that the subject isn't pithy enough.  most of the gamers i talked to said that when they were newbs, they just went to a lan party, picked up the controller and played for a couple hours and enjoyed the process or trial/error/strategic savepointing and then they were hooked and played til they beat the game. 

it's a rough comparison, but it's like having a panel on books... you can teach people about how there are chapters and an intro and certain writing styles, but i think that people would much rather go get a book and read it themselves.  there's no substitute for hands on learning.

if you want to make your panel more "pithy" per se, you could somehow just... have a lan party.  really.  they work wonders.