Artist Alley Facebook Updated and Question on Display Spacing

Started by Phyn, September 26, 2011, 07:49:34 PM

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Phyn

Greetings again!

Hope your summer was fun.  The Artist Alley group in Facebook has been renamed for 2012: https://www.facebook.com/groups/198025690228018/

I'm posing a question I posted over there:  Should artists be permitted to display their works facing behind and outside their table space? I'm real curious to read what you think because this issue seems to have split the artist community down the middle.

- Marc Dell'Erba
FanimeCon Artist Alley 2012

idontknow

I think it's alright as long as the display doesn't interfere with the other artists :P

mcmissa

It's really rude. I understand the sentiment if it doesn't interfere with the artist behind you, however I really think it is dishonorable to

display artist work directly behind them where it will get confused with the artist who sits behind them. An artist should never have to direct and explain that artwork isn't theirs. I've heard many an artist who has had this happen to them get really frustrated that their con experience was half explaining and redirecting people away from their booth.

An artist really can't work with the space they are given? Those who fight for artwork being displayed directly behind them care about only one thing: Their visibility at the expense of the artist who sits directly behind them. It isn't cool and I think it's really crazy that people will defend this.

For artist that sit at corner tables, this is a way different scenario. Having displays on the side of their booths clearly doesn't interfere with the artist behind them. And as long as both parties are happy there isn't an issue.

Arcane

I feel that as long as an artist asks and receives permission from their affected neighbor, artists are should be able to post where ever they want within their allotted space.  (so long as it does not pose a threat to safety)

I can understand completely how having to explain constantly that the artwork posted behind you is not yours could be frustrating, but I feel that it is rather draconian to force everyone in the alley to only post forward and inward regardless of their situation.  At AA 2011, the neighbors to my left were doing crochet work and had no artwork on sale.  They said they enjoyed having my artwork posted facing their side and even helped try to convince the alley staff to allow me to keep my work posted on their side.  At AA 2010, the neighbors to my left enjoyed having my artwork up because they did not have any of their own and reported that they actually got some traffic due to my pictures.

I would like to believe that people elsewhere are civil enough to respect each other and are mature enough to find middle grounds that they can all be satisfied with.  I sincerely hope that, if logistically feasible, this can be left to AA tablers to handle on our own without staff intervention.

Zully

The only problem I see with the whole "just ask your neighbors for permission" scenario is that I think a lot of people would feel pressured to agree to it. I mean, it's your table neighbor. You're going to be stuck next to them all weekend.  You might have to ask them to watch your booth, ask to borrow a print sleeve if you run out, all those sorts of things. Starting the weekend out on a sour note might not be something a lot of artists are willing to do.

I personally think it's easier if a clear rule is made against back displays in artists alleys. The front is plenty of space, and if it's not you can always purchase an additional table as many artists have before.

Arcane

I don't believe that politely declining their request would sour the entire weekend.  The decision to not allow your neighbor to post facing your side does not come from malice nor spite, so there shouldn't be any hard feelings on either side.  I am still very hopeful that people can be mature enough to deal with this sort of situation without necessitating hard fast rules to unburden themselves from discussion with their neighbors.

Zully

I would like to believe that's true, too. I would also like to believe that no con attendees steal things off of Artist Alley tables and that everyone attending conventions are honest, straightforward and trustworthy-- but unfortunately this isn't the case. I can very easily envision a scenario in which someone asks for permission to display their material, someone declines, and the requesting artist is offended by the rejection. Either because they believe it's silly to reject the proposal, that the other person is being selfish, etc. It really doesn't matter.

The fact of the matter is the burden of that decision should be on the convention rules, not up to the individual artists.

Arcane

I don't believe that referencing theft is relevant to this situation.  There is no doubt that theft is wrong in practically all situations.

Realistically, I agree that many people might be offended by having their request declined.  This feeling may have to do with the expectation that they should be able to post as they please.  If it is stated somewhere, or better yet, if the general population takes upon the norm, to be prepared to not post behind or to the sides, perhaps people may be more aware of proper etiquette and less likely to feel that they are being denied a right and can avoid having hurt feelings.


--The next section is intended to clarify my personal intentions and feelings, not to antagonize or belittle anyone--


I suppose I am not too concerned with this specific situation.  Rather I am VERY concerned that people may not be confident in their own abilities and/or lack the desire to improve.  I cannot say for certain if this is how people actually feel, but it has sounded this way to me for a long time now.  When someone loses business to a picture that is posted behind them, I feel that that person should think:  "This artist behind me seems to have something that draws people's attention.  There is something that people prefer at that booth over what I have.  What is it?"  If this x-factor happens to be style, then there is little one can do other than switching to a more preferred style for the future, or altering the customer base's preferences somehow.  If it happens to be quality, then the problem lies in the artist, not the posting habits of their neighbor.  If it so happens that the neighbor has a bigger stand, then the artist should entertain making a comparable stand.  Regardless of what it actually is, I do not think that the answer to the competition it poses should be countered with imposed restrictions.

Hachimitsu

erh what about facing the image the other way..?

I mean you can post the image behind you, but would'nt that show a white blank canvas?
(without disturbing others!)
i mean I think people does that all the time!...

and what about backdrop images...?
would'nt that interfere with the artists chair?

I noticed last year that there was a backdrop that was showcasing some sort of valley.. not sure who the artist is but i thought it was  neat idea.. until it brought upon the chair incident!

KikaiSaigono

My personal stand point on it is that I think it is downright rude rude rude. What else would you put picture on the back of your display for than to direct customers to you from the other side? What does that do to your neighbors behind you? I've had it happen to me before, and when I asked the AA directore to ask her to take them down and he did ask her, she got in a huff and was sour to me ALL weekend. So yeah, if you do decline, they may get very upset with you for hte rest of the con. And I'm one of those people that has a hard time saying no when confronted by people in that manner...

Cole

Quote from: mcmissa on November 16, 2011, 08:56:01 AM
It's really rude. I understand the sentiment if it doesn't interfere with the artist behind you, however I really think it is dishonorable to

display artist work directly behind them where it will get confused with the artist who sits behind them. An artist should never have to direct and explain that artwork isn't theirs. I've heard many an artist who has had this happen to them get really frustrated that their con experience was half explaining and redirecting people away from their booth.

An artist really can't work with the space they are given? Those who fight for artwork being displayed directly behind them care about only one thing: Their visibility at the expense of the artist who sits directly behind them. It isn't cool and I think it's really crazy that people will defend this.

For artist that sit at corner tables, this is a way different scenario. Having displays on the side of their booths clearly doesn't interfere with the artist behind them. And as long as both parties are happy there isn't an issue.

As someone who has been apart of the Artist Alley since 2006 I can say that I have always seen this done and I've not heard of any problems with artists having double-sided displays.  I have seen an issue with artists posting pics to the side facing the table next to them which has caused issues.  Usually though people are smart enough to realize style differences, those that don't are probably newbies that haven't ever been to the artist alley before.  The thing to remember is that often times artists have too many different prints and they cannot fit all of them on the front side and on the table, therefore the backside becomes useful in displaying.

If it is becoming a problem then another option would be to create a print catalog (I've seen a select few seasoned artists start to do this).

To be honest though... I get the feeling that those complaining also have their displays on both sides, but their skill level may not be that high and they are probably just jealous and want to hurt the sales of the others who are at a higher skill level than they are.

Artist Alley is a family for me.  Those who I have met and gotten to know, those who I have yet to meet; even though everyone's a rival they always seem to get along well... I'm not sure what is causing the sudden issues popping up but I hope that everyone will maintain that feeling of family within the Artist Alley. 

Everyone is there for the same reason.  To promote their talent and provide art to the fans of the event. To meet others and trade information on styles and just hang out and have fun. Let's keep Artist Alley that way =)

Laggy

I don't think this is a matter of skill level at all, I think it's an issue of basic common courtesy. You're not supposed to interfere with your neighbor's display. Having your logo, banner, or artwork showing on their side counts as interfering with their display. You wouldn't put a sign or your artwork behind your neighbor's booth, so why should the person behind you be any different? This is the first year I'll be having a booth at any convention, and even I know I would never put up a double sided banner. It seems like a pretty rude thing to do, and I know a lot of people would have issues saying they weren't okay with it if asked.

And frankly, saying 'you're just jealous because they're better than you' is pretty rude as well.

KikaiSaigono

Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 02:04:04 PM


To be honest though... I get the feeling that those complaining also have their displays on both sides, but their skill level may not be that high and they are probably just jealous and want to hurt the sales of the others who are at a higher skill level than they are.



Are... are you kidding? The age old "They don't like it because they are jealous" comment? I agree with Laggy, that is pretty rude in and of itself. I can assure you it is not about skill, but I can also say that the person who was hanging posters double-sided was also not higher in skill level. In fact this artist has been banned in a lot of alleys for bad practice (if 14 tables at Otakon rings a bell, you know who I am talking about).

And you are giving a lot of con goers credit here for being able to see differences in style... I sat next to a buddy of mine at Youmacon last year who was selling buttons and I was selling things vastly different from what she was. All weekend people were trying to hand me money for her things and vice versa. And at the end of the weekend when I had a clearance on prints, people were trying to buy HER prints at my price, which is frustrating to say the least. Some people just don't know the difference. Is it there fault? Maybe not, a lot of artists share space and that can confuse them. But when you are spending much of the convention telling people that the print they want is actually not yours and that you should go see the person on the other side for whatever it is they want, it gets more than just a little tiresome after a while.

By the way, I don't hang my posters double sided, since you assumed I do?

Wiccat

I will agree that backwards facing displays are downright rude.  I've been selling at the Fanime artist alley since 2001 and last year was the first year I've had a problem with this.  Perhaps it's been going on for a while, I don't know, it hasn't happened to me before.  And no, it's not a matter of competition because my table sells buttons and handcrafts instead of art prints.  Because of that, there's no style to distinguish between my product and those of that backwards facing display.  And I will also agree that saying the artists who are upset with this are "just jealous" is pretty rude in and of itself as well.

Last year, I've had people constantly asking to buy the artwork that wasn't mine.  But it wasn't just that, I don't have a problem telling them it's not mine and directing them to the appropriate table.  No, they don't just come up to my table and ask for the print, I've also had people standing in front of my table staring at those prints for several minutes and blocking potential customers for my product from accessing my table.  Not only that, but quite a few times, people had actually leaned over my table to get a better view of those art prints and that was just not acceptable at all! 

So no, it's not a matter of petty jealousy over skill level.  And yes, these backwards facing displays are encroaching on my table space and my ability to sell my own products.

And finally, when the artists behind us were asked to take down or cover up their backwards facing artwork, they tried to ask for my permission to keep their display up.  Naturally, I declined and told them I would like it if they didn't.  And they proceeded to b*tch about it to each other and their friends who visited their table pretty loudly for the rest of the con, which made the mood more than a bit uncomfortable for me and the other artists in my row.  You would think people will be civil about it, but I've experienced different.

daniellesylvan

I am so shocked and confused by this issue. Since when is having a double-sided display rude? I'm so baffled I don't even know how to respond to this.
I've never sold at Fanime but I have sold at many different Artist Alleys over the years. My first couple of cons I only had a one-sided display, but I noticed over artists using double-sided displays and I thought it was a fantastic idea! So I started doing it and have been ever since.
Just to clarify, by double sided display I'm referring to having a PVC display on top of my table and hanging prints on both sides. I would never put art or a banner directly behind my neighbor in a way that would intrude on their personal space and disrupt them.

And in the many years and many cons I have sold at, I have never, ever had someone confuse the work of the artist behind me for my own, or vice versa. I mean, the other artist's table is at least 3-6 feet behind me! At a table facing the opposite way! Who would even be able to get that confused? I have, however, had many people want to buy the work of the artist next to me, or vice versa, but I have never been offended by it. Why would I? I just politely tell them it's not mine and refer them to the correct artist.

I've also had many people tell me "I saw your ___ print from behind on the other side of the room and I had to come over!" meaning that my double-sided display is certainly doing good things for business. However, I don't see how that would mean I'm taking business away from other artists. If they were browsing another artist's table, saw my work from across the room, and came over, that's not my fault. It just means I have better work that they were more interested in. (Not to sound cocky, I'm not saying I have the best work. I'm just saying that if someone sees it and is more interested in it, that's their choice!).

Overall, I have never heard any artists complain about double-sided displays until I saw this thread. I know tons of artists who do it and I have never had anyone say anything bad about it. In fact, all the artists I know agree that it is great for business. I don't find it rude in any way, shape, or form.
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www.daniellesylvan.com

KikaiSaigono

#15
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:03:12 PM

Overall, I have never heard any artists complain about double-sided displays until I saw this thread. I know tons of artists who do it and I have never had anyone say anything bad about it. In fact, all the artists I know agree that it is great for business. I don't find it rude in any way, shape, or form.

Great for your business. Great for business for those who do it and encroach on others' territory. Bad business for those who get their art confused with yours. Don't you think that you have never had a problem with it... because you do it? You don't find it rude, but you can tell by the responses in this thread that while you are doing at a con, others' will most definitely find it rude and generally not like you for it. I know I don't find very much respect when I see people doing it at cons. I just can't see how this is oh so shocking, that advertising behind someone else's table is rude.

I wish cons would just ban it already. There are already some that do.


Edit: I should add that when someone has displays facing backwords behind me, I tell the director about it. Usually they will ask the person to take it down. If this happens to you at *any* con and it is not outright banned, don't hesitate to ask an administrator. It's not right for them to get free advertising from the booth you paid good money for. I am usually way too shy to ask the artist outright to remove it, so  I got straight for those in charge who are generally understanding.

Wiccat

Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Just to clarify, by double sided display I'm referring to having a PVC display on top of my table and hanging prints on both sides. I would never put art or a banner directly behind my neighbor in a way that would intrude on their personal space and disrupt them.

As I said in my post, it's not just being mistaken for the artist, it's the fact that people will see the art and will stop to inspect the art.  While in front of my table.  And block other people who might be interested in my product.  If your rear neighbor is fine with it, by all means, go ahead.  But I think it might just be common courtesy to ask first.

daniellesylvan

Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:03:12 PM

Overall, I have never heard any artists complain about double-sided displays until I saw this thread. I know tons of artists who do it and I have never had anyone say anything bad about it. In fact, all the artists I know agree that it is great for business. I don't find it rude in any way, shape, or form.

Great for your business. Great for business for those who do it and encroach on others' territory. Bad business for those who get their art confused with yours. Don't you think that you have never had a problem with it... because you do it? You don't find it rude, but you can tell by the responses in this thread that while you are doing at a con, others' will most definitely find it rude and generally not like you for it. I know I don't find very much respect when I see people doing it at cons. I just can't see how this is oh so shocking, that advertising behind someone else's table is rude.

I wish cons would just ban it already. There are already some that do.


Edit: I should add that when someone has displays facing backwords behind me, I tell the director about it. Usually they will ask the person to take it down. If this happens to you at *any* con and it is not outright banned, don't hesitate to ask an administrator. It's not right for them to get free advertising from the booth you paid good money for. I am usually way too shy to ask the artist outright to remove it, so  I got straight for those in charge who are generally understanding.

But how is it "Free advertising from the booth you paid good money for" when the art is on their own booth? As long as the art or banner is within the space that the artist themselves paid for, they can do what they want with it unless otherwise stated in the rules.
And no, it's not just because I do it. I've had plenty of artists sitting behind me do it too. I've never had someone confuse their work for mine or have it bother me in any way.
Also, roughly 90% of the artists I see with PVC displays have double-sided displays. So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that everyone agrees with you. It's shocking to me because I've never heard of it being "rude" before until just now in this thread.
In fact, I've actually had a couple of artists tell me it's very smart of me to double my display and they mention that they will use the idea in the future. They are genuine and not spiteful about it, jftr. If anyone commented about my display intruding on their space (which it does not) that would be much different.

Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.
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Wiccat

Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.

And artists should have the common courtesy not to put up advertising in a place that would prompt shoppers to stop and acknowledge that advertisement.  Because people will stop and look, it's human nature.  Something attracts our attention, such as good artwork we might desire to own, and we will stop to look at it.  Those who glance at it and continue walking are likely not going to buy the print.  So what is the point of rear facing displays if you think it's common courtesy for people to not look at it and act like they don't want your art?  Just don't put it up, then.

daniellesylvan

Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.

And artists should have the common courtesy not to put up advertising in a place that would prompt shoppers to stop and acknowledge that advertisement.  Because people will stop and look, it's human nature.  Something attracts our attention, such as good artwork we might desire to own, and we will stop to look at it.  Those who glance at it and continue walking are likely not going to buy the print.  So what is the point of rear facing displays if you think it's common courtesy for people to act like they don't want your art?  Just don't put it up, then.

No..? If someone sees the print from the opposite side and likes it, they would walk over to my table to get a closer look and/or purchase it. What I'm saying is, standing in front of the opposite artist's table to look at the display behind theirs is 1) rude and 2) doesn't make sense. They might as well go around to the actual table to get a look.
I don't have a double-sided display in order to have people stand there and stare at the opposite side. I have it so when they're on the other side they might see it and be like "hey that print looks cool! Let me go check out that table"
It's more to catch their attention than anything else. So no, I don't put up double-sided prints for them to "see it and walk away" that doesn't make any sense.
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