Certain fanart now banned in the artist alley?

[LiL Moon]

I just think for artists in the artist alley who are selling their items should have it be a choice whether they want to sell fan art or original art. FANIME SYSTEM IS GOOD AS IS Period.

That's the point I am trying to make. The Fanime system is better than most, but there are still some issues that need to be addressed. I was basically told that I could not sell fanart at all simply because of my choice of art medium. But it wasn't in so many words so I'm waiting to see what is ok and what isn't.

PS:And how do people rushing art jobs last minute do anything? (unless they are tracing or something)
Sure they can show up with stuff unacceptable but I thought that if somethings wrong just report it to fanime staff and they will take care of it.
No artist is that stupid. Unless they want to get banned. If someone showed up with stolen fanart then they should be reported and then taken care of.
Is this supposed to relate to the 50/50 rule at all or is this just another thing entirely I am confused??

And there are instances of people rushing to do things last minute. You need to think outside of the print artists. People who work with their hands can make things even up to the day before. I know I do. This was just a point I wanted to bring up. It's not related to the 50/50 rule. And yes, you can report stolen works at the con to the staff and yes they do take care of it. They do a good job, really. I was just thinking that it's sad that even though they take so many precautions ahead of time, sometimes things just pop up anyways.

[princeofrose]

@ Lil moon
Did you ask them what exactly they said that you could not sell and why? Was it really because they were plushies? :O
Is it because they look too much like the real thing?
And yeah-I would do things the day before too (while stressing out majorly at the same time haha) Yeah things always pop up it is always going to happen. But at least it can be reported and taken care of.


@Armored-Heart
Just to state this out-
We are always going to be on two different sides of the same coin. Me fanart-you original art. Fanart vs original art is basically what this comes down to.

For me I sell mostly fanart (or plan to) because I enjoy drawing it more than original art. It is more fun to draw art of characters that I love. It is hard for me to sell originals because all the originals I do are of my own characters which I get attached to which means I will not want to sell them. To sell my originals I'd have to create a picture that I am completely detached from which means that I will not put as much effort into it because It is not of fanart or my own OCs which I enjoy drawing. It means in the end I'll have a semi good picture that I dislike that I have wasted X amount of hours on and have to put it down on my table because of the new rule to match my fanart.

It is the "must sell X% of original art" that gets me. I can be required to set down some original art for people to look at but having to be required to sell is a whole nother story. I bought my table and I expect to sell whatever amount of original or fanart stuff on it. No percentages 80/20 rules whatsoever.

I know you are an inspiring original artist and feel overshadowed by the fanart that is there but no matter what it is always going to be that way. Just because you do not want to be overshadowed doesn't mean you should take other artists down with you. With the rules now everyone is free and content-rules are simple. You buy your table then sell what you want. Walaa~!

If you really are worried about your original art selling or being "overshadowed" then you can work your way around it. Perhaps with your comic book give the person who buys it an extra item-like a small sticker or even a fanart keychain or whatever just to get your name out there. With your book in their hands people will read it and then you will start developing fans which equals a fanbase! Sure-it means a bit of extra work but that is what it is.

[LiL Moon]

@ Lil moon
Did you ask them what exactly they said that you could not sell and why? Was it really because they were plushies? :O
Is it because they look too much like the real thing?
And yeah-I would do things the day before too (while stressing out majorly at the same time haha) Yeah things always pop up it is always going to happen. But at least it can be reported and taken care of.

Well, they basically told me that they saw my fanart (they listed a few, but used the word etc too) and said that I could not sell it, but that my originals were ok. ^^'' That was all so there was no explanation. That's way I sent them a follow-up email.

[Armored-Heart]

@princeofrose- Okay, stop. Just stop. I'm just stating a goddamn opinion, not "trying to take other artists down with me" or "trying to limit their creativity." Hell, I'm not "trying to" do anything aside from state my opinion on the matter. I feel that in situations like this, both sides of the discussion should be considered. Like I said, I like and draw fanart too. And I had already stated that such a rule would need to be worked out considerably, and not just thrown into place. This is not about me trying to sell my comic, I was using it as an example and you're jumping all over it. This is not about my ability to be a logical businesswoman or how skilled I am as an artist. You're being really rude towards me when I'm simply stating my opinion. I highly doubt anything I say will have any effect on what Fanime staff decides to do; even if they do decide to put a rule in place, it won't be because of me or my opinion. This is simply a DISCUSSION between fellow artists and I would appreciate it if you didn't attack my opinion so harshly and ridicule my examples.

I already said I didn't really approve of the current "no fanart at all" situation because I know that's how many of you make your money and that's what you like to draw. 50/50 is still harsh, but I'm chill with the idea if it's deciding between that or none at all, but a much smaller percentage of original work as a minimum is more reasonable. The intentions are good and I'm sure staff has their hearts in the right place, but there are loopholes and other things to be worked out.

Furthermore, if you like drawing your OCs (and when I say OC I'm assuming original character and not fan character) why not turn them into original prints? I don't see why you'd have to be so "detached" from them by making prints of them or what have you. It's not like you're selling them off to a company never to see them again, you're selling a print of them and potentially sparking inspiration for someone else. If someone had a really well drawn print of a well-designed OC in the midst of battle/interacting with their environment/etc or made a cool comic with them and it caught my interest I would certainly buy it. I don't see why you have to not like an OC to sell it; that seems counter-productive really, since if you don't love your work, it's doubtful that anyone else will, either.

[princeofrose]

I want the fanime staff to be able to see both sides before they make a call if they do. And I am hoping if they do it will be for next year so artists don't have to worry about anything until next year.

Because I am feeling like I am selling my own character-I'm afraid the person will take it and think that since they bought it they can do whatever they want with it. Which means they can take the same character and call it their own or something like that.
Yeah-if the character wasn't the focus of the picture and it had a lot of other things that was the main focal point that I would want to sell it more
however that would take a long long time to do-time that I might not have.

@Lil-Moon
Do you think that your fanart looks too much like the original character-as in-I saw you made plushies. Have you researched and seen if the company itself have made plushies for that anime/tv show/video game etc. If they did and it looks too closely like yours then maybe that is why they said you can not sell it?
Yeah I am sure they will reply soon.

[Armored-Heart]

@princeofrose- I think the anti-rule side is very well represented, which is why I've been speaking up about my opinions. You've been consistently putting down me and my opinion that partially supports the proposal of some sort of regulation, so I fail to see how you also "want to see both sides." I do however agree that it's a bit too close to Fanime to suddenly bring in such a rule, though. Artists need time to prepare their work, which is why I'm not participating this year; I want to perfect my products.

And that's definitely not the case; people don't buy fanart and think they own the intellectual property copyrights, now do they? You don't pick up a copy of Zelda and think that because you own a copy of the game, you suddenly own that series and can do whatever you want with Link. It's the exact same thing.

[Charis]

Because I am feeling like I am selling my own character-I'm afraid the person will take it and think that since they bought it they can do whatever they want with it. Which means they can take the same character and call it their own or something like that.

... may I suggest looking at this statement from the perspective of those original copyright-holders whose characters you're drawing fanart for?  It's by no means an exact comparison, but it's still got similarities ...

[princeofrose]

I think the fanime staff are debating about they rule then they should have artists vote on it.
They should have a brief description of each and then the pros and cons of each-then send out emails to all the artists and then have them vote. Sure they'd have to make an e-mail to send to every artist but then whatever wins people would know.
Also post the poll on facebook/main fanime website so other people can vote as well.
Maybe artists that didn't get into the artist alley or something?
Just so it gets a fair chance and isn't done in by only people in the forums or something like that. It will be everybody. And if it is done that way then I won't mind and there won't be as much as an uproar afterwards if one thing gets chosen over the other.

Well that is the thing-Zelda is popular. The art of your original character isn't-the internet is huge. What are the chances that you will find the person that is using X character to do whatever? But its alright, if I draw for fanime I will create something entirely different. I don't like using my own OCs unless its for myself. The only OCS I have are going to my portfolio lol. If I sell original prints it'll be like mermaids or something.

@Charis And by fanart for do you mean commissions or something?

[Charis]

@Charis And by fanart for do you mean commissions or something?

No, I mean that you say you're drawing fanart -- some character that was created by someone else, whether a manga-ka or a television producer or whatever -- without their knowledge or consent, just as you say someone might take your own character and use them in turn.  Have you considered that perhaps they feel the same way about the idea of people drawing their creations as you do about your own?  It's a one-sided view to come out so strongly on the pro-fanart side and then say something like you did, since it shows a lack of consideration of how that element feels.

(I feel like I need to disclaim: I am neither pro-fanart nor anti-fanart. I tend to look more for original pieces than fanart in artist's alley, though one could say it's because the characters/seria I like aren't likely to be represented.  I don't think anyone here is necessarily right or wrong, but I think there are also some important elements -- like legalities -- that are being largely disregarded in this discussion too.  But mostly, your statement just struck me as ironic given your stance on the subject as presented herein.)

[Armored-Heart]

Popularity has nothing to do with it; besides, even popular webcomics started out somewhere, and their work had to rise in popularity over time. It's a matter of intellectual property rights.

Charis is basically saying (And Charis, please correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize if I misinterpret your opinion.) that it's a bit hypocritical to say you don't want to sell work involving your own characters because you think the buyer would think they could do whatever they want with it, when you insist on selling fanart and are essentially doing the same thing with someone else's characters. You're piggybacking off of the success of another, but you don't want to share your original stuff because you worry that someone could do the same to you.

[princeofrose]

Well I am not exactly pro fanart. The main thing is Freedom of Choice
The ability to choose what I want to put on my table-whether it be all fanart or all original art or half and half. That's it.

Well with my original stuff its different. I'll create something else-me drawing a character in general in a picture would still be my character because I created it. I am still selling it. It doesn't have to be of my original characters because no matter what I draw it will still be something I created in the first place. I will create characters to sell-but the thing I won't want to sell is the characters I created specifically for my novel etc.
After I write it and illustrate it and it gets out to public if people want to make fanart then I won't care. They can do whatever they want.

Yes, I understand what you are saying-and I still will sell original art prints. Just not of the things I created in the past. If I make prints to sell it'd be something new out of my head entirely. That is what I meant-not of my old characters that are sitting in the dust. If I create something new entirely then I will sell it. Or if it is of my own character in another outfit with a pretty bg with patterns everywhere etc. I was actually (if I had time) create some original prints to sell. I make them a bit different (clothes wise) like put my own spin on it.

[Armored-Heart]

You're not really addressing the point we made regarding the hypocrisy of your statement. You're just trying to backtrack and change your statement. =/

And I can understand wanting freedom of choice, but I think the idea to consider here is that because of that freedom, most people only sell fanart because that's what is expected to sell and what people are encouraged to buy. The intent of the proposed rule is to allow original art to gain more ground in AA, because essentially, selling fanart is a whole boatload of copyright infringement, and while it's doubtful that the copyright owners would press charges, the current situation basically encourages artists to profit off of someone else's ideas instead of their own.

[LadyUni]

Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

[Armored-Heart]

Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

QFT

[princeofrose]

Yeah I was in a rush-
I don't understand why I am getting bashed for not wanting to sell art of my original characters. I'll sell original prints if I want to but not of my own characters. I would make new things instead. Thats that.

And yes-with fanart you are technically drawing other people's creations and selling them etc. etc.
But if the companies/creators really had a huge problem with it then I am sure they would of done something to ban it from happening. Plus-what fan artists are drawing aren't an exact copy of the fanart itself. Its just that character with ideas coming out of their own mind that they think its cute that they put down on paper. They just have the character as a centerpiece.
The people who created video games/anime/ whatever know that once they get their idea out there people are going to draw fanart of it an create new things with it. That is the chance they have to take.
When I create something and send it out to the world I know that the same thing could happen to me. I can either- 1) let the people draw fanart of it or 2) try and get them from not doing so. I'll let people draw fanart etc. because I love seeing what people can come up with. I am sure a lot of other animators think that well too.

And people can still make money off their original ideas. People do still look at original art. One way to draw people in as well is posting some fanart-and then having your original art at the side. People will be at your booth and they will see your original stuff and maybe they will like it a lot and purchase it.
The rule itself just would be a hassle-specially when it comes to breaking things up.
Lets say you have the 80/20 rule or the 70/30 rule
You make 2 HUGE posters that are like-I don't know...like banners. That big. The art itself took you lets say a really friggin long time to create. Does that mean you have to create original art to match that exact thing now? Because that'd be possible but it'd take a lot of time and what if it was the last month?
What about the people that create tiny little trinkets? Like keychains pins or whatever-would the rule apply for that as well?
Everything like that has to be taken into consideration.
And what about commissions? You are still doing original art for other people would that be considered under the rules as well since you are selling art to other people of whatever they want.

But even with the 80/20 rule whatever it'd still be the same. Sure there would be a tad more of original art out there but fanart will still overshadow it and people are still not going to buy as much as they would for fanart.
It would seriously hurt people's wallets if that happened and make it a lot more work to do. That would mean I'd have to create all the things I had planned in 90 days-fanart, portfolio, business cards etc. and then original art on top of that.

I still think it'd be best if every artist voted on it.

And I thought fanime was for everything-selling fanart and original art. Original art can still be recognized and treasured even with the "freedom of choice" thing we have right now so why change it? Sure you have a rule that makes you put original art out-but fan art will still be there and then you'd be competing with a bunch of other original artists to sell/get your name out there. It would be like the exact same thing just with a little more original prints or whatever to sell.

EDIT:
Ignore this post. No rules are to be made so I am not going to debate anymore.

[M]

This post is to not say that anything has been out of line, but it's getting kinda close to it. I appreciate the conversations and input that everyone is putting into it, but please remember that nothing has been finalized for next year's AA rule. Some of the posts here are being made (or seems like it) with the assumption that FanimeCon is going to move to a 50/50 rule.

Please remember that all rules that we create, modify, and enforce is for the benefit of the convention and members. Making any little (or big) rule change will always make someone unhappy.

Keep up the good conversations but remember that we're all apart of FanimeCon. :)

[LiL Moon]

@Lil-Moon
Do you think that your fanart looks too much like the original character-as in-I saw you made plushies. Have you researched and seen if the company itself have made plushies for that anime/tv show/video game etc. If they did and it looks too closely like yours then maybe that is why they said you can not sell it?
Yeah I am sure they will reply soon.

....well, I really don't like repeating myself. I have answered your questions already in other posts. I do research everything I make before I make it because I really don't want to get in trouble. I do make the effort to make my plushies different from the companys. I really don't get any satisfaction out of copying something that's already been made. And I do like to make plushies of characters that have also not been officially made. So I am doing as much as I can not to copy. But I do like to try to make it look like the character so it doesn't look cheaply made. So my plushies could be questioned maybe because they look too good?  ;D

[LiL Moon]

Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

I totally agree. I mean, yes, one of the factors is for profit, but another reason is, I simply enjoy making fanart. I want to make fanart to make other fans happy and to promote a series that I really enjoy. I love how the fans come over and we can chat about the series. I especially like it when cosplayers show up and by a fanart of who ever they are cosplaying as. I also like to use it to show off my skills. I want to make good quality plushies that look better than the Chinese knock-offs or even the original company's. I use it to improve my 3D design skills by trying to see how I can make a 2D character into a 3D form. These aren't something I just slap together for mere profits, I put heart and care into each fanart I make. If I didn't care about the series, I wouldn't be trying so hard. It makes me angry when I hear that artists only make the fanart for profit and they have no interest in the series what so ever.  >:(

[chibimonster]

Kinda off topic here...
I have to admit, I don't like hetalia very much. However, I will be selling some hetalia fanart at fanime. Yes, it will make a fair amount of money. However, it will also make a lot of hetalia fans happy. For example, I have several friends who regularly attend fanime and love hetalia. For some reason beyond my comprehension, they are also big fans of my art (I'm not THAT good, really...) and they frequently beg me to draw stuff for them. I know it would make them happy if I had some hetalia stuff to sell. The profits are really just an added bonus.

Anyway, I think any motivation for drawing a piece is valid. If you love a series and want to draw fanart of it, that's cool. If the fanart is more for someone else's enjoyment than yours, that's cool, too. If you want to draw fanart of a series that you don't know/like because you're a businessperson looking to make a profit, that's still cool. Regardless of your reason, some customer will walk away with a piece of art to enjoy.

The most important thing is originality. If I draw fanart of anyone, I'm going to make it creative. I don't like Rin and Len very much, but, again, there are tons of people who like them, so I'll consider selling a print of them. Having them pose against a white background is the most unoriginal, boring thing ever. Therefore, I'll draw them window shopping at night in a crowded city. Still, just drawing them walking around with generic happy expressions on their faces would be boring; I'd rather try to tell a little story. How about this: Rin sees something she really wants in a nearby window and is pulling Len towards it. Len would probably be very reluctant to shop for anything, so I'll draw him looking annoyed and trying to resist being dragged away by Rin.

Even though I'm not really a fan of Rin and Len, I've just thought of a fairly original idea involving the two of them (At least, as far as I know - I made it up as I wrote this). Probably, someone out there will like it and want to by it. Does it make me any less creative that I drew a picture of a couple of characters that I don't especially like? In my opinion, no.

[LiL Moon]

@ chibimonster: No, I'm not saying it makes you any less creative. Good artists can still make good fanart regardless if they like the series or not. It's hard for me to say what I mean, but I do feel a little awkward when I try to talk to an artist about their piece or the series and they just stare back at me with a blank face. Then I'm thinking, "Well, why did you make this it you don't know anything about it?" That's not to say that you don't. That's just my opnion. I don't have much respect for an artist who doesn't know anything about the piece that he or she is making and is merely doing so because it is "popular." Some artists you can tell right off that they did so if all their pieces look the same with different characters in the same pose with little alteration. XD