The INTER-GENDER Communication Handbook

[udonoodle]

Hello!
I was stalking the forums, and I realized that there is a whole lot of miscommunication out there in the nerdy-flirty-world. I (now) understand that guys hate being misconstrued as "flirting/creeping" by girls perhaps more than girls hate feeling creeped on. I have to admit after some reflection, and after 7 years of con attendance, I believe with full sincerity that most (key word being most) of the "creepers" I've encountered are just socially slow "older" men.

I believe that it would be of great benefit to the convention community to create a forum guidebook on "inter-gender" communication :)
However I am just one (younger) girl, with one viewpoint: SO LEND YOUR AID :))

You may look at my older posts, and you will see that I am one of those girls who complained about being creeped on a few years back, however I'd like to think I have gained more knowledge of the situation, and am now coming to a more inclusive conclusion.

ONWARDS (to the real topic, i'll start us off)

A) HOW NOT TO BE A CREEPER (But let's not make "not creeper" our baseline):
I ran across this post that spurred me to make this topic-

how do you guys generally define "creeper"? I was balling up my courage to take a photo of various cosplayers and I may have think I have weirded them out in some way.

I know this may not seem helpful at first, but I generally define a creeper as someone whose actions actually or potentially (as in "if they knew about it," not as in "if someone somewhere could possibly be creeped out by this," since that woul make everyone a creeper with everything they do!) creep out or make uncomfortable (or scared, etc.) another party, typically a female party, though this isn't exclusive to men creeping out women (or young girls), since there are female creepers, and males can get creeped on by both females and other males.

Now for ways to tell if you are being creepy, and hopefully how to avoid them. Some things are clearly creepy, like taking upskirt photos of girls without them knowing (I think this falls pretty squarely into the "potential" category above!). Some things aren't, since it's all subjective. The basic rule of not being creepy is this: if the person you are interacting with seems uncomfortable in any way with the interaction, you are very likely being a creeper. Again, it's all subjective, and things that might not be creepy at all in another circumstance might seem creepy because this Princess Peach is -really- trying to go meet their friend and you just won't shut up about how much you love Mario RPG, yet if she wasn't distracted by trying to get somewhere, she might find the exact conversation to be enjoyable. When she finally meets her friends, she might say "I would have been here earlier, but wow, there was this creepy guy who just wouldn't shut up about Mario RPG!" simply because you couldn't read the signs that she was not comfortable with the conversation (in this case, for a specific reason that has nothing to do with your actions).

Some basic tips: Watch your eyes and tone of voice. People, especially women, and even more especially attractive women who get hit on a lot, notice the use of the Gaze. Your eye movements might make the person you are interacting with feel uncomfortably objectified or otherwise violated in some way. You'll have to keep that in mind. Of course, most women who wear sexy cosplays know what they are getting into and don't mind people to see what they are revealing; otherwise, they wouldn't wear it. Most people wouldn't mind just looking. However, when it crosses the line into gawking or oogling, which can be subjective but the basic concept is "don't stare, especially at her body, look at her face while talking to her," it becomes a problem. Also, tone of voice can be an issue, since a normal conversation with a different inflection can be taken as innocent or creepy, depending.

Watch what you say. This can be everything from blatently hitting on someone to simply acting odd (such as being too prying, too argumentative, etc.). This year, I had someone who talked to me a bit, left, came back, and started grilling me on things like why I prefer certain video games or why I live where I do in comparison to my major in college (I have no problem telling people basic info like the general area of CA where I reside or what I study in school, but that's about as personal as I get), and the more I tried to evade the questions, the more insistent he became. Don't be that guy. If someone seems to be evading your questions, doesn't seem to want to talk about something, you think you might be getting too personal, etc., if you keep interacting with that person in the same way, you are probably being a creeper. Also, if you just walk up to someone and start commenting on their looks or make obviously sexual comments, you might be creepin', depending on how they feel about it. In fact, you will most likely be creepin'. If you want to comment on something to start a conversation, start with talking about whatever series or character they are from, or if you don't know what it is, compliment how you like their costume and ask them what it is from or how the made it. Most people like to talk about things they like, and if you make the conversation less about them, their looks, etc., and more about their costume or the series they are from, they are much less likely to find you creepy. You most likely already have something in common, since you are at the same con together!

Don't touch people. Just don't. Don't grab at anything, even an arm or shoulder, don't hug without permission (and if the person doesn't give permission, don't act all pouty or insist on a hug or anything like that, just walk away), etc.

Treat people like people and act like a person. Cosplayers are people in costume, not characters, and not pretty things for your amusement. A lot of people seem to forget this. Also, don't act like an idiot yourself. I know that I find it refreshing when someone talks to me when I'm in costume like they would anyone off the street, rather than treating me like I'm the character or treating me like I'm an object. Actually, I'd say that treating a person like a person is probably my #1 tip on how to not be a creeper. If you keep that in mind, you're likely to be fine, given that you have any semblance of social skills or ability to read body langauge at all.

A small note that you may not realize (and I touched on earlier a bit) is that it may not be personal. The person you want to interact with could be distracted or in a hurry. If it is a female cosplayer, especially a particularly attractive one, she may be defensive because she's been hit on by every other heterosexual male in the convention and doesn't want to be hit on again. However, if someone seems uncomfortable with your interaction, politely excuse yourself from that interaction. Leave. Don't hang around and make them even more uncomfortable. That's what makes someone a creeper -- making others uncomfortable with your attentions towards them. You can be a creeper right off the bat, too, just don't make sexual advances right away, oogle people, take inappropriate photos, etc., and you should be fine there. You don't seem to be worried about being that kind of creeper, anyway.



When simply taking a photo and not interacting in another way, it's really easy to -not- be a creeper. Don't hang around awkwardly, either before or after. Don't ask for odd poses or take really low- or high-angle shots. Ask confidiently and smoothly, or, if the cosplayer is already posing for pics (especially if there is a crowd of photographers), simply hold up your camera and kind of point to it to let them know that you are joining the fray. If there is a big crowd of photogs, don't try talking to the cosplayer while they are posing and while there are still photogs around (as a cosplayer, I can tell you that they tend to come in waves, so you can easily wait for a small gap), and if you want to talk to them, stand off to the side and wait, don't just stand there and stare at them. Only take pics when the cosplayer is actually posing, don't just snap them off randomly. It's really basic, but it really helps. I can't speak for "most cosplayers," but I can say that I don't creeped out by a simple photo request unless the photog breaks one or more of these guidelines (typically more, unless it's something like hanging around for long periods before and after photos, not saying anything, or if someone were to attempt an upskirt shot or down cleavage shot or something).

When asking for photos -with- someone, please make it clear that you are asking for a photo -with- them and not -of- them. Also, ask before you touch the cosplayer. Always. Please. This is important. I don't tend to take pictures with fans except on rare occasion (say, they are a huge fan of whatever obscure JRPG I'm cosplaying, or they are 6 years old, or they are another cosplayer who might have something matching [I got matching large hammer shots with the Thor cosplayer, for example], etc.), but I started to this year because so many people were asking for a pic of me and then jumping into the shot themselves. This is even worse when they then proceed to put their arms around with without permission, since I really don't like to be touched (and some of my costumes are fragile). Again, if the cosplayer seems uncomfortable, say, they are trying to squirm away from your grip, watch for that and apologize.

Basically, if you aren't socially inept, aren't making unwanted sexual advances (a lot of "creepiness" tends to have sexual overtones), and are treating people like people, you should be fine. This post may seem a bit long, but really, it's not nearly as hard as it seems.

And really, if some random person thinks you are a creeper for a single, innocent interaction, then that's more their problem than yours. You can't help that. But if someone thinks you are being a creeper, take a look at what you are doing and try to see how it could be interpreted as such, and work on changing on that. A lot of people don't seem to realize when they are being a creeper, so if someone thinks you are, don't just dismiss it, see if you were doing something (say, you didn't realize you were staring at her breasts, or you said something that could come across as inappropriate, etc.) that would make the person think that.

I hope that helps!

B) MOST GIRLS WANT TO MEET PEOPLE TOO! (or at least they should): I'll try and keep this brief since I want this to be a collaboration, but I believe that people go to cons to meet people with similar interests and have a great time. Some of my greatest friends are people I've met at cons over the years. I wish more people came up and talked to me, and I'm sure many other girls feel the same way.

Some guy should post that guys wouldn't mind having a girl come up and talk to them *wink wink*

I realize this is totally terrible structure but I don't really post in forums so I'm not an expert at these things. If anyone has a better layout idea that would be awesome.

[macksan]

I just want to add my 2 cents on the creeper issue.I'm an "older"(36 yrs old) guy who isn't socially slow. My post is just a list of suggestions,advice,and things I've learned and experienced going to various cons throughout California including Fanime. Hopefully  "older" as well as new con attendees will find it useful.


* A lot of anime fans are socially awkward in general. So when you do talk to them proceed with caution. Some will be cool,some will be very eccentric,some will be obnoxious, and some will be straight up rude. I'm sure this sounds like interactions with most people you see on the street but it really isn't because a lot of youth that goes to these cons lack common courtesy.

*Many of the young female con goers (ages between 12 - 25) feel older men are creepy in general period. So if your an older guy(age 30-50) and if you see young ladies in cosplay that do not look 21 yrs old are older then do not bother engaging in conversation unless they want to talk to you. I'm not saying you can't talk to them.I recommend you keep your distance  just to keep your sanity and keep the "creeper" complaints to a minimum.

*Physically attractive Female cosplayers need to realize "real" men are going to be men. If they were not taking pictures of many of you that wear revealing cosplay many of you wanna be models would be put out of job or dressing up in skimpy well made cosplay in the first place. Guys are going to look and want to talk to you. I can understand if quite a few ( a lot of you) feel uneasy and uncomfortable dealing with unwanted male attention.That still doesn't excuse you for being rude . If you got somewhere to go or if your feet hurt from standing in boots all day then politely tell the person that instead of giving them a mean look and rudely just walking away. That way you can leave and the person your "avoiding" doesn't feel like a "creeper".

* This is more for the "older" and more mature con goers.Speak to con goers that are of legal age or around your age. I'm not saying don't talk to anyone.But if you want to avoid a lot of the drama of dealing with the more socially awkward,obnoxious, and rude part of anime fandom be more aware of who you choose to talk to.

* I'm sorry if it seems if I'm generalizing young anime fans.But through my experience many of them came off as rude and lack common courtesy.I'm not saying all of them but a lot of them are lacking when it comes to treating others with respect.

*Keep in mind that many anime con goers are of adult age, but many of them don't act like adults at these events.

*The best place to meet and talk with people is the Gaming Room at Fanime. This spot seems to be the hub where everyone lets their hair down and where most geeks and anime fans feel comfortable. This is where I have had the most fun meeting, talking, and engaging with other people at the con.

*Leave your male libido at home or back at the hotel. Most young anime fans are very socially awkward when it comes to hooking up and dating at cons. Any hint of  sexual interest towards most female con goers will put you in the "creeper" category. Unless of course you are a pretty boy or someone they are remotely physically attracted to.

* Older con goers or just guys looking to hook up should avoid engaging young women at cons that are with groups. If you see them with friends or constantly surrounding themselves with friends that's a sure sign that they want to be left alone or they are socially incapable of meaningful conversation with anyone other than their friends. Sorry if this comes off as generalizing and mean. Its based on just common sense and actually dealing with these experiences is why I offer this advice.

*If you do want to try to talk or hook up with young female cosplayers you need to be in cosplay yourself. That way you can actually have something to talk about.It increases your odds of actually getting to know their name ^_^(Yes,I'm being sarcastic).  They also feel more comfortable talking with other cosplayers.

*Most of the other essentials are in the Fanime code of conduct. So make sure you read those.


  I'm sure my post may come off as trolling and mean to the more sensitive-whiny-OMG!-I-hope-he-is-not-talking-about-me con goers and cosplayers. But I am an older guy and I'm not going to sugar coat anything. All that I posted is meant to make other male Fanime con attendees realize what they are getting into when they come to this and other similar events. More females attend anime cons than any other geek themed conventions. To guys who are Alpha males or those looking for a hook up your odds of meeting that special someone or getting some "action" is very low if your obvious about it. Unless of course your a young pretty boy in yaoi fan fiction cosplay and your skill with the ladies is god-like.


I, like everyone else just want to go to these events and have a good time. Even still we should all treat each other how we would want to be treated. That way there wouldn't be any issues of "creeping" and nice guys feeling like "creepers" because they want to meet and talk to women who they have things in common with. I'm sure quite a few women who do want to hook up at Fanime wouldn't want eligible guys to feel less confident in talking to them. So don't ruin they're con experience as well by overreacting to all forms of male attention.


Mack-San

[udonoodle]

I'm sure my post may come off as trolling and mean to the more sensitive-whiny-OMG!-I-hope-he-is-not-talking-about-me con goers and cosplayers. But I am an older guy and I'm not going to sugar coat anything. All that I posted is meant to make other male Fanime con attendees realize what they are getting into when they come to this and other similar events.

It's fun hearing from a completely different viewpoint! Thanks :) I thought your post was very informative, not at all troll-like, and gave me a laugh or two.

[djmonolith]

I am an older guy too and I totally enjoyed reading this post and the comment.  Fanime has always been a great experience for me because I go for the same reasons as everyone else!  I shop, hang out with friends, go to various events, cosplay, buy stuff, meet people... and take pictures.  I post ALL my photos on flickr and am very matter-of-fact and honest about it.  Good cosplay deserves attention.  The amount of time and creativity should be shared (I think).

And to be honest, even though I am an older guy I have never once felt disrespected by con-goers or cosplayers while taking photos.  I think there is a mutual respect that happens when both parties are being honest.  The cosplayer is there to show off their hard work and be seen... the photographer is there to capture the moment. 

I enjoy the entire event from a purely aesthetic viewpoint... it is like walking around in a gallery of moving artworks.  Of course I am going to want to capture some of it on film.

Having been on both sides of the camera I can say that it is a very different experience depending on where one is standing.  I think the bottom line is respect and honesty.  I have no other motives other than to enjoy the event. That said, I am totally at a major disadvantage in that I am in a very small category of people.  It makes it more difficult to meet others and that really is part of the fun. 

Anyway, thanks for the posts.  This year I will, once again, be enjoying the Con from both sides of the camera!  See you in 10 days!

[Firefury Amahira]

*Physically attractive Female cosplayers need to realize "real" men are going to be men. If they were not taking pictures of many of you that wear revealing cosplay many of you wanna be models would be put out of job or dressing up in skimpy well made cosplay in the first place.

This is one I have to object to, as you come off as completely generalizing and degrading to "physically attractive female cosplayers" and this skirts dangerously close to the "well she's asking for it in that skimpy outfit" excuse used to try and justify lewd behavior elsewhere. Real men are going to behave with a modicum of respect in their interactions with cosplayers regardless of their physical attractiveness. When you are being repeatedly harassed by obnoxious guys, you get snappy and defensive. Sadly, being a rude bitch is the only way to get some of these 'real men' to quit.

Sure, in an ideal world the exchange ought to be along the lines of this:
"Hey, can I take your picture?"
"Sure!"
*click*
"Thanks!"

or in the negative, this:
"Hey, can I take your picture?"
"Sorry, I really need to get off my feet and take a break/I'm on a deadline and can't right now."
"Thanks, maybe some other time."

The reality is sadly more often along the lines of this:
"Lemme take your picture!"
"Not right now."
"Oh come oooooon! It'll only take a sec!"
"I'm busy and I have to get going."
"But you're in costume right here! Don't be so bitchy about it!"
"Go away and stop pestering me, you creepy jerk!"

So remembering to be polite is a road that runs both ways. Cosplayers need to remember not to take out their irritation at the obnoxious ones on everybody else; but at the same time, the folks with cameras need to remember that cosplayers are NOT under any obligation to drop whatever they're doing just because somebody wants a picture. We're not 'wanna be models' desperately seeking the attention of anybody with a camera, we're anime nerds who like to dress up because it's fun to wear a costume.

[Nina Star 9]

Holy really long quote from me, Batman! Where'd you dig that up from?




I have to agree with Firefury Amahira about macksan's post. Not just that one section, but the entire thing came off as really misogynistic. I wouldn't want to talk to someone who had the attitude of the poster, regardless of age, sex gender, looks, etc.

I am an older guy too and I totally enjoyed reading this post and the comment.  Fanime has always been a great experience for me because I go for the same reasons as everyone else!  I shop, hang out with friends, go to various events, cosplay, buy stuff, meet people... and take pictures.  I post ALL my photos on flickr and am very matter-of-fact and honest about it.  Good cosplay deserves attention.  The amount of time and creativity should be shared (I think).

And to be honest, even though I am an older guy I have never once felt disrespected by con-goers or cosplayers while taking photos.  I think there is a mutual respect that happens when both parties are being honest.  The cosplayer is there to show off their hard work and be seen... the photographer is there to capture the moment. 

I enjoy the entire event from a purely aesthetic viewpoint... it is like walking around in a gallery of moving artworks.  Of course I am going to want to capture some of it on film.

Having been on both sides of the camera I can say that it is a very different experience depending on where one is standing.  I think the bottom line is respect and honesty.  I have no other motives other than to enjoy the event. That said, I am totally at a major disadvantage in that I am in a very small category of people.  It makes it more difficult to meet others and that really is part of the fun. 

Anyway, thanks for the posts.  This year I will, once again, be enjoying the Con from both sides of the camera!  See you in 10 days!

I have no problems with people of any age wanting to take my photo. I like to cosplay to show support for whatever series and/or character, and because I like to make a lot of crazy costumes, so I'm flattered when people want to take photos of me. Taking photos is important in some ways, since I do like having nice pictures to document my costumes, but getting attention and affirmation from men doesn't factor into my cosplays at all. I'm just a nerd being nerdy. :)

A lot of photographers are "older" men (middle-aged and above), and I have no problem with that. I have actually very rarely had a problem with a photographer, and most of the issues I have had have been with random fans. I believe in cosplay photography being based on mutual respect, which seems to be your philosophy as well, so that's good. we actually seem to have a pretty similar philosophy on cosplay and photography more generally. ;)

I don't think that you are in a small category at all. As a female cosplayer, especially one that is not afraid of wearing revealing outfits, I tend to get some of the worst of the attention and comments, but the number of people who approach me with the assumption of mutual respect is much higher than the number of people who approach me in other ways. Yes, I get a lot of the people who only see my body as a sexual object, but I get many more people who see me as what I am -- a dedicated fan in a costume. I talk to these kinds of people all the time at cons, and we sometimes have a great time. I don't care if someone is a ~super hot bishie guy desu~ (no...really, I don't care how "hot" you are, I'm not interested), or if they could be my grandfather, or if they are a woman about my age, or if they are much younger than myself, I care if I can carry on a conversation about our shared fandom, along with whatever else comes up, with the person. You know, people who treat me like a person. You seem like someone that I would enjoy talking to at a con. :)

When you are being repeatedly harassed by obnoxious guys, you get snappy and defensive. Sadly, being a rude bitch is the only way to get some of these 'real men' to quit.

Totally ignoring macksan's implications of "real" men vs. not "real" men...
But really, pretty much all of this. If every single heterosexual male has made a pass at you, done nothing but stare at your body the entire time they tried to talk to you, thought they could put their hands all over you without permission, made explicitly sexual comments towards you, physically grabbed you into a crowd and practically told you that you made for good masturbation material, followed you down the street for a few blocks repeatedly asking for your number, started prying into your private life, etc., you'd start to get snappy and defensive, too. (All of these have actually happened to me)

Also, this goes for anyone, but mostly women have to deal with this type of harassment:
If anyone is making you uncomfortable in any way, get yourself out of the situation ASAP. Make an excuse. Just walk away. Pretend to get a text from your "boyfriend." Pretend to see someone you know and walk up to them. Do anything to get yourself away from there. People have a much bigger right to not be creeped on than people have a right to not to be made to feel like a creeper. It's a safety issue. If you have to be rude, be rude. It's more important that you are safe than that you are polite.

Of course, don't do anything disproportional -- no flip-outs, random yelling, physical attacks (unless defending yourself, obviously), etc., but rather a stern (and possibly loud, so others know what is going on and can possibly step in) "NO" or "I'm not comfortable with that" or even just turning and walking away can do wonders. Be civilized, but don't worry too much about manners or offending the person.



(macksan does make a few interesting points, but the misogynistic, bitter tone of his post, and the assumptions he makes, are really irritating. I don't think he's trolling, I think that he honestly believes these things, which is quite unfortunate. :< I'm resisting the urge to break down his post, since that would likely start a fight, and I don't want that at all! I want to help people.)

[clickclackbang]

The reality is sadly more often along the lines of this:
"Lemme take your picture!"
"Not right now."
"Oh come oooooon! It'll only take a sec!"
"I'm busy and I have to get going."
"But you're in costume right here! Don't be so bitchy about it!"
"Go away and stop pestering me, you creepy jerk!"

Wow were some people really like that? I've been going for 6 years I have never seen someone be that rude.

[Otaku_Lord]

This sort of sounds like the whole "Cosplay Does Not Equal Consent" movement that's going on right now. It may be really popular.

[PinkHairSasuke]

This sort of sounds like the whole "Cosplay Does Not Equal Consent" movement that's going on right now. It may be really popular.

I was thinking the same thing.

[udonoodle]

Haha well let's not make this forum about that (I recommend the bring your debating shoes sub-forum XD)

Remember this is supposed to be helpful and informative! (Albeit I completely understand that people will wish discuss certain more controversial comments)

[Barnes]

Sure, in an ideal world the exchange ought to be along the lines of this:
"Hey, can I take your picture?"
"Sure!"
*click*
"Thanks!"

And that's how my exchanges go. Yay!

[Firefury Amahira]

I think ultimately, any and all communication, both with the same and the opposite gender boils down to the easy-to-remember, "Don't be a dick."

[macksan]

*Physically attractive Female cosplayers need to realize "real" men are going to be men. If they were not taking pictures of many of you that wear revealing cosplay many of you wanna be models would be put out of job or dressing up in skimpy well made cosplay in the first place.

This is one I have to object to, as you come off as completely generalizing and degrading to "physically attractive female cosplayers" and this skirts dangerously close to the "well she's asking for it in that skimpy outfit" excuse used to try and justify lewd behavior elsewhere. Real men are going to behave with a modicum of respect in their interactions with cosplayers regardless of their physical attractiveness. When you are being repeatedly harassed by obnoxious guys, you get snappy and defensive. Sadly, being a rude bitch is the only way to get some of these 'real men' to quit.

Sure, in an ideal world the exchange ought to be along the lines of this:
"Hey, can I take your picture?"
"Sure!"
*click*
"Thanks!"

or in the negative, this:
"Hey, can I take your picture?"
"Sorry, I really need to get off my feet and take a break/I'm on a deadline and can't right now."
"Thanks, maybe some other time."

The reality is sadly more often along the lines of this:
"Lemme take your picture!"
"Not right now."
"Oh come oooooon! It'll only take a sec!"
"I'm busy and I have to get going."
"But you're in costume right here! Don't be so bitchy about it!"
"Go away and stop pestering me, you creepy jerk!"

So remembering to be polite is a road that runs both ways. Cosplayers need to remember not to take out their irritation at the obnoxious ones on everybody else; but at the same time, the folks with cameras need to remember that cosplayers are NOT under any obligation to drop whatever they're doing just because somebody wants a picture. We're not 'wanna be models' desperately seeking the attention of anybody with a camera, we're anime nerds who like to dress up because it's fun to wear a costume.

I myself never said anything about "well she's asking for it in that skimpy outfit"  and that  it should justify lewd behavior. That not something I support or agree with. At the same time common sense should tell you that people judge you and treat you differently based on your appearance. Both sexes men and especially women take advantage of this common knowledge.  People are all different and they are going to treat you based on what they think or feel based upon how you present or conduct yourself.

    I feel you have taken my "real" men comment the wrong way. Many young women these days have the attitude like "They have to have they're cake and eat it too". Life doesn't always work in this way. There will always will be benefits and consequences for your actions. Just because you wear sexy cosplay it doesn't mean you should be treated as a sexual object or warrant harassment. At the same time if your attractive and your showing plenty of skin you are going to come off as a sexual fantasy to some and a slut to others. That's the truth. How you handle both the positive as well as the negative attention is more of a reflection on you than on how the person treats you. Especially if your a person known for your cosplay or a professional.

Many of you who do cosplay in general have different reasons why you do it. But you still do it for some form of attention. Some of you are not very social and that social awkwardness comes off as rude to those who are social. My "real men" comment was my way of letting the more socially awkward young female cosplayers know that "real men" the guys who are social, not whiny sissy boys, and not shy when it comes to meeting and wanting to talk to women are going to talk to you. Quite a few of you are very stand offish and get very defensive when a guy wants to make conversation. And it comes off as you being bitchy. A "real man" will back off and leave you lone if you act like an immature bitch. An immature man or those who get treated poorly by women will react negatively if you come off as brushing them off.


The reality is sadly more often along the lines of this:
"Lemme take your picture!"
"Not right now."
"Oh come oooooon! It'll only take a sec!"
"I'm busy and I have to get going."
"But you're in costume right here! Don't be so bitchy about it!"
"Go away and stop pestering me, you creepy jerk!"

I have never seen an instance of this happening in my over 3 yrs of going to various cons around California.



   I'm sure you just added this to prove a point. And if this did happen to you then that sucks. A "real man" would've picked up on your body language and left you alone. But some guys won't get the message. I'm sure you didn't like the way he came at you and asked to take your picture. "Lemme take your picture!" is not a good way to ask for a photo. I've seen instances where female cosplayers deny photo opportunities to guys just because a guy didn't ask politely,look, or acted a certain way. I'm sure many do this based on experience dealing with the more obnoxious guys who asks for pictures. But I have also seen female cosplayers deny photo opportunities just because they felt the guy was a "creeper" or didn't like the way the guy looked. Even if the guy asked politely to take the picture he still got turned down. I've seen the girl then turn around and let some other person take their picture. Now that is just rude,discriminatory, and insulting to the guy you turned down. And guys who are beta males, socially awkward, or borderline psycho tend to take obvious female rejection pretty hard. Some will hold a grudge against not only you but other female cosplayers who doesn't deserve that guys wrath. A few guys will actually retaliate and pose a threat physically to you and others.


" the folks with cameras need to remember that cosplayers are NOT under any obligation to drop whatever they're doing just because somebody wants a picture. We're not 'wanna be models' desperately seeking the attention of anybody with a camera, we're anime nerds who like to dress up because it's fun to wear a costume."


    I can agree with this,but only to a certain extent. If your in costume in public you are putting yourself on display period. If you don't want people giving you some form of attention(asking to take your picture, taking pictures without your consent,giving you unwanted attention) then common sense would tell you to  change out of that costume before you go out. I know many cosplayers don't feel like going all the way back to the hotel to change out their costume. Your only alternative is to be even more polite when your out in public and you no longer want to be the center of attention.

  I've seen a situation where  a very beautiful and sexy( A very impressive boob job) young woman dressed up as Boa from One Piece eating at a subway. People were gawking at her and even taking her picture with their cell phones. But when guys or people stepped up to ask for a picture she politely told them" Sure,but could you please wait until after I'm done eating". Sure enough after she finished eating she spent an extra 15 minutes taking pictures with people in Subway. She wasn't a pro cosplayer or even a model.She was just as you said an "anime nerd" who like the character and felt she could emulate the character well in costume oh and her boyfriend made the costume. How do I know this?I asked her. She knew what she was getting into when she got in that costume.She knew she was going to get a lot of attention whether she wanted it or not. Some people have the social skills and know to handle themselves in certain situations. Others do not.

  She was nice,polite, and mature about the situation. I know every cosplayer is different and some are not as nice,polite, or mature as this young Lady was.

   All I'm saying is just handle each and every situation with maturity and consider the other persons feelings.Like I said how you react and handle a situation is a reflection on you.


Mack-san

[macksan]

(macksan does make a few interesting points, but the misogynistic, bitter tone of his post, and the assumptions he makes, are really irritating. I don't think he's trolling, I think that he honestly believes these things, which is quite unfortunate. :< I'm resisting the urge to break down his post, since that would likely start a fight, and I don't want that at all! I want to help people.)

Moi! A misogynist O.o?! Why I never...!?LOL

But seriously though you don't know me and I don't know you personally. Your experiences  and what you have been through are completely different from mine. I can relate to and empathize on your bad experiences. At the same time  I feel those bad experiences shouldn't excuse you or other female cosplayers from behaving a certain way or not have common courtesy.

  I admit to being offended on being on the receiving end of rude behavior and being rudely brushed off from just wanting to talk to women in cosplay. But I am no way bitter. And just because I don't accept all forms of female BS does not make me a misogynist. I'm a beta male with alpha male tendencies towards the ladies. I love women. I grew up and was raised in a black southern home so I've always been surrounded by strong-I will not put up with your-bull$**!-women. I was raised to have common courtesy and be respectful towards women. At the same time I'm not going to allow women to "cut off my ballz". What I  mean when I say "cut off my ballz" is that I m not going to suppress my thoughts or opinions as a man just because women may find it offensive. I wouldn't stop women from saying how they think or feel and I want that same respect.

Over the past 5 yrs women have the edge and the advantage when it comes to the battle of the sexes. Especially when it comes to the geek community and culture. Half of the reason is that we got a lot of guys who have had their "ballz cut off" at an early age or they were whiny sissy boys to begin with. And these guys let a lot of women get away with BS.

I treat women as equals. I do it so much so it lowers my chances of getting laid. Most of my friends are women,I like strong opinionated women, and just like being around them. But because I know women in general  so well I accept the good and the bad. And just because I accept the bad doesn't mean I should tolerate it all the time. Both sexes have their share of bull$**!. Its just now that we are in the age of "female empowerment", women are a lot less tolerant of male BS. As soon as guys be guys or call women out on their BS we get hit with the sexist tag or labeled a misogynist. Granted things are still not equal between men and women. And because of that many women take advantage of the many double standards that support them.

My intent wasn't to sound bitter,be misogynistic, or make assumptions. If you felt irritated then that's you. You and I have two different experiences. I can meet you half way if you do the same. If you wish to break down my post then do so. I like spirited intellectual debates as long as they don't get personal. But I agree with Udonnoodle that we should keep this forum helpful and informative. So if you wish to discuss things further lets not do it here. Better yet we can meet at Fanime. I got a table at artist alley this year. My table will be easy to find. I'll probably be one of the few black guys with a table. And my artwork will have lots of T and A fanservice ^_^. So I can relate to rude behavior towards sexy cosplayers. Because I draw sexy female anime and comic book characters. Nothing gets female con goers all riled up then seeing anything sexually suggestive that isn't yaoi art or fan fiction. A guy can't  be a nice guy and a perv these days.Yet its perfectly fine for girls to perv out about pretty boys making out with each other. So if you want just stop by my table when you get the chance  to ^_^.


Mack-san

[Sivartius]

Some guy should post that guys wouldn't mind having a girl come up and talk to them *wink wink*

Well, I'm a guy, and I certainly wouldn't mind having a girl come up and talk to me. I know I tend to talk a lot, and sometimes I've been known to monopolize people. I'm working on it. But if you don't feel like talking right now, all you have to do is let me know.

A little thing I'd like to say. I'm sure most guys won't react like that, but for me, a girl wearing very provacative clothing or showing a lot of skin makes me very uncomfortable. I was raised to be respectful, and not to "look on a woman to lust after her". And I don't always find that easy to do when girls dress to draw that type of attention. I'm not going to tell you what to wear, but I'm unlikely to stay in your vicinity. Or, since at Fanime I don't know that I will be able to avoid it, try to look in a different direction. I also don't want to be taken for a creaper, so I try not to stare. If I hover, it's because I want to talk to you but I'm trying to be polite and not interrupt.

[Bm-Atticus]

[ Because I draw sexy female anime and comic book characters. Nothing gets female con goers all riled up then seeing anything sexually suggestive that isn't yaoi art or fan fiction.

See, I was mostly with you riiiiiiight until this part. As has been reiterated, your experiences differ from my own and I cannot speak for any women that have told you that they take issue with your artwork. But speaking as a recovered 'yaoi addict' (Can't even type that word without shuttering) I remember having a sort of animosity toward female protagonists because I felt they were 'getting in the way of hot sexy teims!'. Thankfully that all changed when a friend of encouraged me to become active in the LBGTQ community and I cut that shit out so fast I nearly gave myself whiplash.

Not all female con goers get offended by sexy and provocative artwork just because they're yaoi fans. Some of then probably feel like women are being objectified and feel they have to speak up.

If they were rude about it, then it really doesn't matter what points they have. Once civility is thrown away any possible chance of bringing up something of substance goes along with it.

My personal opinion on the subject is... 'eh, whatever floats your boat.' While I do find myself wondering what sort of protection a chain mail bikini would offer in battle, I'm not about to raise a stink over it anymore then I'm going to raise a stink over being smothered in Black Butler bodypillows when I walk down a crowded corridor. I may not like it, but that doesn't mean I need to demand everyone else stop liking it. I've been doing the convention scene for almost ten years. If I got my hand-stitched panties in a bunch over stuff like that I would stopped going to these things a long time ago.

And one last thing if you think all girls get all up in arms over this. Go check out the line for Hentai Nights sometime. I think you'll be surprised.

That being said I would love to visit your booth and maybe we could swap convention tales. From the sound of it you probably have quite a few.

[macksan]

[ Because I draw sexy female anime and comic book characters. Nothing gets female con goers all riled up then seeing anything sexually suggestive that isn't yaoi art or fan fiction.

See, I was mostly with you riiiiiiight until this part. As has been reiterated, your experiences differ from my own and I cannot speak for any women that have told you that they take issue with your artwork. But speaking as a recovered 'yaoi addict' (Can't even type that word without shuttering) I remember having a sort of animosity toward female protagonists because I felt they were 'getting in the way of hot sexy teims!'. Thankfully that all changed when a friend of encouraged me to become active in the LBGTQ community and I cut that shit out so fast I nearly gave myself whiplash.

Not all female con goers get offended by sexy and provocative artwork just because they're yaoi fans. Some of then probably feel like women are being objectified and feel they have to speak up.

If they were rude about it, then it really doesn't matter what points they have. Once civility is thrown away any possible chance of bringing up something of substance goes along with it.

My personal opinion on the subject is... 'eh, whatever floats your boat.' While I do find myself wondering what sort of protection a chain mail bikini would offer in battle, I'm not about to raise a stink over it anymore then I'm going to raise a stink over being smothered in Black Butler bodypillows when I walk down a crowded corridor. I may not like it, but that doesn't mean I need to demand everyone else stop liking it. I've been doing the convention scene for almost ten years. If I got my hand-stitched panties in a bunch over stuff like that I would stopped going to these things a long time ago.

And one last thing if you think all girls get all up in arms over this. Go check out the line for Hentai Nights sometime. I think you'll be surprised.

That being said I would love to visit your booth and maybe we could swap convention tales. From the sound of it you probably have quite a few.

Sorry about that lol. My attempt at sarcasm and humor can come off as me just being obnoxious at times. I had a few experiences where a one girl and (surprisingly) a few guys felt my art was objectifying women. I basically tell them I'm drawing characters that I didn't create and they are already objectified and I like boobs. After I tell them that they pretty much leave me alone. Negative feedback or questioning my preference for drawing large bustlines is fine.I have no problem with it. The only people that irks me is the ones who past by my table and act immature about it or say rude things but don't acknowledge my presence.


I have been to Hentai Nights only once and that was 3 yrs ago. There are just as many women as there are guys in that viewing room. And I will say more women buy my artwork at cons than men do. So I know for certain that not all women are offended by the work I do. I was just making a poor attempt at humor with digs at Yaoi fan community. But that's because I have gotten the most rude and obnoxious reactions from fans of that community.

I have noticed that women at cons are not as shy as the men are when it comes to buying more adult oriented content at conventions. I find it disturbing that more guys seem to be more offended by my work than the girls. But usually these guys are surrounded by a group of girls. So they  have to put on the "I'm not that(perverted) type of guy" act in front of them. But in most cases these guys are sexually confused or like loli's anyway.

[Sivartius]

Dear Sir;

The fact that a man does not approve of sexual visual material does not make him sexually confused, a loli-con, or a poser attempting to look good. Now if he cannot do so in an at least moderately respectful manner is a different problem. But objecting to pornagraphic material does not make him any less of a man.

Sincerely Yours;
Sivartius

[Nina Star 9]

Macksan>
I am very sorry I do not have a better reply, but I stopped reading your posts when you started to police both gender and heterosexual female desire by differentiating between "real men" and "whiny sissy boys." I do not know what other wisdom they contain. My apologies for not having anything more useful to contribute.




Everyone else>
Can we get this back on topic, please?

For those who maybe aren't aware or confused by when it is appropriate to compliment someone (of any sex or gender) and what types of compliments are or are not appropriate, here is a great article. I might write up a con-specific version of this at some future date, as this one is more about the workplace, but many of the same concepts apply.

I also found this cute comic that amounts to much the same thing. :) Might be easier to digest.

Or, since at Fanime I don't know that I will be able to avoid it, try to look in a different direction. I also don't want to be taken for a creaper, so I try not to stare. If I hover, it's because I want to talk to you but I'm trying to be polite and not interrupt.

I think that casually not looking is fine and respectful, as long as you don't make a big show of not looking, which it doesn't seem like you do. :) Hovering in and of itself isn't bad if there seems to be a reason for it. If the person you are trying to talk to is busy (say, getting photos taken, etc.), then politely waiting off to the side is fine. It only gets to be an issue when someone stands off to the side and stares for no apparent reason, stands off to the side at inappropriate times or for inappropriate amounts of time (say, watching someone eat or adjust costume elements, or standing off to the side and not doing anything for long periods, even when there is a chance to walk up and talk to the person), or doing it excessively (following the cosplayer, seeming to be standing off to the side everywhere they go, etc.). As long as it is clearly just to wait until an opportune moment to politely approach the cosplayer, there shouldn't be much of any problem at all. (At least, I wouldn't have a problem -- I've had people stand off to the side and wait until a wave of photographers was over so they could talk to me, and I've never cared)

[macksan]

Dear Sir;

The fact that a man does not approve of sexual visual material does not make him sexually confused, a loli-con, or a poser attempting to look good. Now if he cannot do so in an at least moderately respectful manner is a different problem. But objecting to pornagraphic material does not make him any less of a man.

Sincerely Yours;
Sivartius

Dear Sir

The fact that a young boys who think they are "men" who whine and complain about anything remotely sexually suggestive visually does make them come off as being immature and whiny. And in my eyes that makes them less than a man. Call me old fashioned. I know quite a few guys who are not into sexual visual material. Some of them I consider friends. And a few of them were sexually confused when I met them. And a couple actually like loli's. So I'm not just talking out of my ass when I type these things up.

I'm not on the whole P.C.(Politically Correct)bandwagon that a lot of people have jumped on as of the last few years. I went through my PC days back in my early 20's while I was in school. So if my comments come off as insensitive that was not my intent.But I'm not gonna apologize for anything I've posted.Sorry if you felt offended.

Objecting to pornographic material is fine and porn isn't for everybody. But whining and getting offended over seeing fictional  female characters with over C cup bust size or that are scantily clad comes off as immature.Especially considering that the content in Anime and Manga is a lot more open about nudity and sex then western comic books.

Thanks for Commenting
Mack-san

PS:: See now you got me trolling lol.