The MOE thread!

[Chun]

This is really way too hard to explain.

I think this is the most sufficient explanation:


~Chun

[Sunara Ishi]

Eh...

Nakoruru isn't really an oneechara at all. If you played through the PC game, there's a scene where they talk about how Rimururu feels ignored by Nakoruru because she cares more about the forest than her.

I don't see how that eliminates her as an oneechan. Its common practice for the imouto to feel ignored from time to time by the oneechan... That makes the doting more significient.

And I wouldn't have picked her as a oneechan if I didn't already double-check with someone that knows this moe more than I... -.-;;

And sorry for only playing arcade... -.-;; I don't own the PC game (which one are you refering to? O.o? ) so my only knowledge can come from random research... >.>;

But nonetheless, I'm not going to change my avatar... I feel it would be disrespectful and a betrayal to Nako...

A lot of you seem to misunderstand what "moe" really is.

It's not "a character you like" or "a character type you like". It's very broad, but there is set limitations really. Like I laughed when people said "Revy" was moe, because she's not a moe-chara. Revy is a Kakkoii-chara.

Nee-chan chara is not moe either. Nee-chan chara is Nee-chan chara.

Moe-chara are like... Mii-tan, Minabi, Komugi, Minna.

I think you are forgetting that moe is up to intrepretation...

Cute isn't just a cute lil loli character.... Thats just a sub-category...
Anyone can find cute traits in anyone... There are times when Revy is moe... Most of the time she is not but its there...
Like what was said before... its the burning feeling you get inside... The feeling you get when you see a character.

[SohmaYuki]

I don't see how that eliminates her as an oneechan. Its common practice for the imouto to feel ignored from time to time by the oneechan... That makes the doting more significient.

And sorry for only playing arcade... -.-;; I don't own the PC game (which one are you refering to? O.o? ) so my only knowledge can come from random research... >.>;

But nonetheless, I'm not going to change my avatar... I feel it would be disrespectful and a betrayal to Nako...

Being an older sister doesn't make her an onee-chara type. Samurai Spirits, you don't even see the relationship between Rimururu and Nakoruru at all. PC game is the only one where they actually have a full story for Nakoruru and Rimururu(and about the origins of Mamahaha and Konril) as well as the others in the village etc. If anything, Nakoruru is more of an okaasan type than a onee-chara type. Since she watches over everyone like an adult and guardian over an older sister.

I think you are forgetting that moe is up to intrepretation...

Cute isn't just a cute lil loli character.... Thats just a sub-category...
Anyone can find cute traits in anyone... There are times when Revy is moe... Most of the time she is not but its there...
Like what was said before... its the burning feeling you get inside... The feeling you get when you see a character.

It's a specific feeling though. It's not just "liking a character" it's very specific in its type. Revy is not a moe-chara at all. There is absolutely no way, because moe is the exact opposite of what kind of character she is. She's a kakkoii-chara, which is the opposite. Moe is a punipuni feeling as Kakkoii-chara is a "Suge, cho-kakkoii" chara. It'd be like calling Vegeta moe. Or Kenshiro moe...

And I wouldn't have picked her as a oneechan if I didn't already double-check with someone that knows this moe more than I... -.-;;

Irony much?

[mDuo13]

This is really way too hard to explain.

Only because you're making it more complicated than it is. You seem to have taken a very specific definition of moe - a subjective word - and are now trying to hold everyone to those standards. The definition of moe that we have collectively agreed upon is much broader:

Moe is whatever makes you "burning" inside, whatever turns you on. Just because Revy has big boobs and short shorts and wields two guns doesn't mean that she's not also cute in her own way. You see, "kakoii" (cool) and "moe" are not mutually exclusive. A character can be both or neither, depending on your tastes.

I don't like your definition of moe because it seems to severely limit attractiveness to a type of character that is consistent with a norm wherein females are young, timid, and/or subordinate to males. I can't accept such an ideal, and that's why - on this board at least - moe is defined the way we have chosen it.

[Sunara Ishi]

And I wouldn't have picked her as a oneechan if I didn't already double-check with someone that knows this moe more than I... -.-;;

Irony much?

?
Whats that supposed to mean? If you're trying to insult my friends, don't. I don't appreciate it. He knows more about moe than you ever will. I think I'd rather trust his words over yours. kthxbye.

I think you are forgetting that moe is up to intrepretation...

Cute isn't just a cute lil loli character.... Thats just a sub-category...
Anyone can find cute traits in anyone... There are times when Revy is moe... Most of the time she is not but its there...
Like what was said before... its the burning feeling you get inside... The feeling you get when you see a character.

It's a specific feeling though. It's not just "liking a character" it's very specific in its type. Revy is not a moe-chara at all. There is absolutely no way, because moe is the exact opposite of what kind of character she is. She's a kakkoii-chara, which is the opposite. Moe is a punipuni feeling as Kakkoii-chara is a "Suge, cho-kakkoii" chara. It'd be like calling Vegeta moe. Or Kenshiro moe...

And I was just saying that there are times when Revy is moe... Why are twisting my words?

And please give the name of the PC game... How can I get it and play it if you don't give us the name... But in any case, just because you intrepret it one way doesn't mean everyone intreprets it that way... But arguing about this won't change matters. I am not changing my avatar.

[SohmaYuki]

Only because you're making it more complicated than it is. You seem to have taken a very specific definition of moe - a subjective word - and are now trying to hold everyone to those standards. The definition of moe that we have collectively agreed upon is much broader:

This is the actuallity of what it is. Misinterpretations of it were made because people didn't attempt to really understand it and just accepted whatever they were told as truth. That's why we have people calling themselves "otaku" like it's a good thing, because they really have no real base understanding of what it means.

Moe is whatever makes you "burning" inside, whatever turns you on. Just because Revy has big boobs and short shorts and wields two guns doesn't mean that she's not also cute in her own way. You see, "kakoii" (cool) and "moe" are not mutually exclusive. A character can be both or neither, depending on your tastes.

No... it isn't. Your basing this on what you think it is based on probably... what you read on American sites like 4chan. Kakkoii(it has two k's かっã"ã,,ã,,）　and moe-chara types ARE mutually exclusive. You can call a Moe-chara "cool" but it doesn't make them a "kakkoii-chara" type. This is why I generally don't like non-native speakers using words from other languages, especially ones that do not translate well at all. People make up their own limitations of what is and isn't, and it destroys what the word is supposed to mean and represent.

I don't like your definition of moe because it seems to severely limit attractiveness to a type of character that is consistent with a norm wherein females are young, timid, and/or subordinate to males. I can't accept such an ideal, and that's why - on this board at least - moe is defined the way we have chosen it.

Not at all, again, you're putting your own limitationis and interpretations on words that I used instead of simply following the words I said. You don't make up your own definitions to words. By doing so, the integrity and meaning of the word is lost and it is just a cheap 2 dollar word to make you feel self-important.

Whats that supposed to mean? If you're trying to insult my friends, don't. I don't appreciate it. He knows more about moe than you ever will. I think I'd rather trust his words over yours. kthxbye.

Actually it was in reply to the irony that... I'm pretty sure I understand "moe" a lot more than you. But since you pulled your friends into it, I'm pretty sure I know what it means more than your friends do. Seeing that I've been using the word for the past 4 years now, and have doujinshi artists/writers as friends. Have been looking at 2ch and futaba for the past 3 years, and know the origins of all the things on yotsuba(4chan) that were taken from 2ch and completely butchered,(like how did kuma~ turn into Pedo-bear).

But if you want to insult me by assuming you and your friends know more than me becaues I said you were wrong, by all means please do.

And I was just saying that there are times when Revy is moe... Why are twisting my words?

When's that? when she's shooting her gun in front of little kids to see their expressions? Moe is the exact opposite of Revy.

And please give the name of the PC game... How can I get it and play it if you don't give us the name... But in any case, just because you intrepret it one way doesn't mean everyone intreprets it that way... But arguing about this won't change matters. I am not changing my avatar

ã,の人かã,‰ã®è´ˆã,Šç‰©

[Sunara Ishi]

Whats that supposed to mean? If you're trying to insult my friends, don't. I don't appreciate it. He knows more about moe than you ever will. I think I'd rather trust his words over yours. kthxbye.

Actually it was in reply to the irony that... I'm pretty sure I understand "moe" a lot more than you. But since you pulled your friends into it, I'm pretty sure I know what it means more than your friends do. Seeing that I've been using the word for the past 4 years now, and have doujinshi artists/writers as friends. Have been looking at 2ch and futaba for the past 3 years, and know the origins of all the things on yotsuba(4chan) that were taken from 2ch and completely butchered,(like how did kuma~ turn into Pedo-bear).

But if you want to insult me by assuming you and your friends know more than me becaues I said you were wrong, by all means please do.

Who's insulting who here? Although you insulted me first, I ask you to please let this die. Please don't keep insisting that I'm wrong. You said so once... that is enough. You should know people are going to misunderstand if you reply with just a single word. I thought you were trying to insult me and my friend... I misunderstood you. I'm not going to say I'm sorry as it is as much your fault as mine... However, these insults are already in the past and now non-existant as far as I am concerned... the ripple in the river is already gone.. May we move on past this.

Why do you assume that we haven't looked at 2chan or that we don't have  such friends as well?
I never picked the word from 4chan and I refuse to touch that place...
I have always learned moe from friends, blogs and japanese sites.

And I was just saying that there are times when Revy is moe... Why are twisting my words?

When's that? when she's shooting her gun in front of little kids to see their expressions? Moe is the exact opposite of Revy.

Lol. When she's waking up from being sleepy. She always looks so cute then. >.<

And please give the name of the PC game... How can I get it and play it if you don't give us the name... But in any case, just because you intrepret it one way doesn't mean everyone intreprets it that way... But arguing about this won't change matters. I am not changing my avatar

ã,の人かã,‰ã®è´ˆã,Šç‰©

Thank you. That is greatly appreciated.

Concerning the main issue at hand: You have stated your opinions and thank you for your concern. But please stop insisting that we're wrong.
We will intrepret things as we will. And I'm sorry if our intrepreting things differently insults you in some way...
We will intrepret how we will and we will have fun with it.
We will not change our opinions for your sake... such a change would destroy any enjoyment (at least for me...) as lying/being untrue to oneself is an insult to one's very core.
Even if its not what it is in japan... that doesn't mean that we have to do things that way... Words change meaning. End of story. Even its current meaning in japan isn't what it used to be...
And like we like to joke... we do things our way... IN AMERICA!
XP (lol. sorry... I just had to... >.>; )
Again I thank you for your concern but to us, we're not wrong.
If you wish to carry on, please take it to your personnal blog.

[SohmaYuki]

Concerning the main issue at hand: You have stated your opinions and thank you for your concern. But please stop insisting that we're wrong.
We will intrepret things as we will. And I'm sorry if our intrepreting things differently insults you in some way...
We will intrepret how we will and we will have fun with it.
We will not change our opinions for your sake... such a change would destroy any enjoyment (at least for me...) as lying/being untrue to oneself is an insult to one's very core.
Even if its not what it is in japan... that doesn't mean that we have to do things that way... Words change meaning. End of story. Even its current meaning in japan isn't what it used to be...
And like we like to joke... we do things our way... IN AMERICA!
XP (lol. sorry... I just had to... >.>; )
Again I thank you for your concern but to us, we're not wrong.
If you wish to carry on, please take it to your personnal blog.

The current meaning in Japan is still the same actually. "MOE" is used in a slang usage that grew popular about 5 years ago. "Moe" still has it's original meanings.

But realistically, by forcefully changing the word and refusing to accept the origin of the word is rather, disrespectful to the words integrity. My roommates don't watch anime, or read manga... and even they understand the concept of "moe". Which is funny because they complain everyday when they get from class about idiot anime/manga fans in their classes trying to impress each other by misusing words(he's in a lot of Japanese courses because he needs to fulfill a requirement for international studies, despite being completely fluent in Japanese). My other friend works at a Japanese restaurant and he complains about the same stuff. It's quite funny.

Think of it like this, when you are not a fluent speaker, and a fluent speaker tells you something is incorrect, it's very arrogant and stupid of the person to reply back with "this is how I want to use it, I don't care if it's wrong".

Just imagine if a Japanese friend of yours were to say, "I really gay that girl" or something as ubsurd, because he thinks gay is a slang term for "really like" or something. Imagine if you tried to correct him and told him how it's wrong and he went, "No it's not, it's right, I know what it means"

[Tsubasa]

From my experience and research, the term "moe" is a word that's very open to interpretation.  There are some general tendencies that are fairly universally accepted as moetic, but from there, people are divided on how broad you can stretch the word.  We've chosen to take an extremely broad approach to the term.  Yes, I admit, this broadening is common in the English-speaking fan community, but it does have input from those people who are completely fluent in Japanese and are participating in the Japanese community.  Although I can very well see how many can see that we, on the Fanime Forums here, have out stepped the boundaries of the term.

On the subject of Nakoruru, I will admit right now that I have not played Ano Hito kara no Okurimono.  On the other hand, I have played almost all of the SS fighting games (minus the 3D games), read up on info about the SS RPG, and have dissected official SS drama tracks that focus on Nakoruru and Rimururu.  I will say that I believe that Nakoruru can be considered an oneesan type.  Although, I see how her tendencies can make one believe she's more an okaasan type.

[SohmaYuki]

On the subject of Nakoruru, I will admit right now that I have not played Ano Hito kara no Okurimono.  On the other hand, I have played almost all of the SS fighting games (minus the 3D games), read up on info about the SS RPG, and have dissected official SS drama tracks that focus on Nakoruru and Rimururu.  I will say that I believe that Nakoruru can be considered an oneesan type.  Although, I see how her tendencies can make one believe she's more an okaasan type.

I don't deny that it's easilly possible for her to sorta fit in to an onee-chan type, but her character is far more okaasan type than anything else. All of the Samurai Spirits games barely had any interaction between Rimu and Nako... or even story for that matter. The drama cd's are okay, but she changes personality types a lot inbetween the different DJ Stations and what not. I'm like... the only person who hated the Ano Hito outfits for some reason.

Oh I forgot to add

Sunara: This one is just a personal pet peeve of mine, please don't confuse 2ch and 2chan. 2ch is the message board(pronounced Ni Chan or Ni Channel) and 2chan is the imgboard(Futaba or Futaba Channel)

[Sunara Ishi]

Nakoruru isn't really an oneechara at all.

I don't deny that it's easilly possible for her to sorta fit in to an onee-chan type, but her character is far more okaasan type than anything else.

That had sounded like denying it to me... >.>;

~~~
Thx tsu. >.< Sorry for not defending her better... u(v.v)u
~~~

Sunara: This one is just a personal pet peeve of mine, please don't confuse 2ch and 2chan. 2ch is the message board(pronounced Ni Chan or Ni Channel) and 2chan is the imgboard(Futaba or Futaba Channel)

I never said that I was saying 2ch was 2chan... >.>;

~~~
This is the last of the matter I will discuss.
Now kids, please be civil... XP

[mDuo13]

That's why we have people calling themselves "otaku" like it's a good thing, because they really have no real base understanding of what it means.

When foreign words are adopted into another language, they don't always mean what they meant in the native language. This is precisely why おたく is not generally a complimentary term, but "otaku" (as used in America) is. In fact, words can take on different meanings even within the same language, depending on who's using them: certain very prejudicial words, when used by some people, can be terms of endearment or assertions of power; a lesbian who proudly calls herself a "dyke" is taking on a different meaning for the word than when most people use it.

The same logic is at work with "moe". ã,,え (or 萌え, if that's the proper kanji) is not the same as "moe". At this point, telling us "you're doing it wrong!" is useless: there was a need for a word in English, it has been approximated from a Japanese word that is similar but not the same, and it's not going to revert to meaning the exact same as the Japanese slang any time soon.

The biggest problem here is that we're dealing with the definition of a slang word, and the point of slang words is that they're not among the canon of officially-defined words. You can't look up "moe" in Webster's precisely because it exists for the specific needs of few people. Among different people, it means different things. Even slang words that appear in the dictionary can only be approximated, because slang words always have a plethora of uses, some of which fall outside the "standard" definition.

Your condescending attitude toward our use of a slang word (and our knowledge of specific characters) is not appreciated.

P.S. how about when Revy lights her cigarette off of Rock's? I thought that was a pretty sweet gesture.

[Sunara Ishi]

I think what is also being ignored in all this foreign language -> english business is that the same thing happens in reverse. Japanese are always picking up english words and misusing them. We don't go correcting them because that is part of the culture... much like our using foreign words in such a way is part of our culture.

Sure we'd correct someone with normal speech but this isn't normal speech. This is slang... Slang doesn't follow the rules of normal speech.

[Chun]

Your condescending attitude toward our use of a slang word (and our knowledge of specific characters) is not appreciated.

This person doesn't sound condescending. It just seems that he's making a valid point in terms of cultural difference.

Moe is pretty straightforward however; as moe as in burning, emotion derived from experience. Though the original derivation of the term was an excessive cuteness of some sort, since then otaku culture has grown into broading the term to a general "Turn on" or "Movement of the Heart".

Otaku IS one of the misconcieved words of this era, and it doesn't make it any more valid even when brought to another border, since the genre and source of the word is completely limited to the single derivation; this word was not created by the English language, but from the Japanese syllabic system. Even if you do call yourself an otaku, in reality, even if you believe it to be a good thing, in the most basic aspect you're referring to yourself in a degrading connotation.

It's equivalent to saying "I'm so good at ******* I'm such a loser". Sure, you don't mean it to be negative. But in the purest sense, loser means lost, incorrect, failed. Why is it excepted? The laws of the English language support the positive meaning by sentence syntax and connotation.

We cannot say the same for "otaku", since otaku does not follow the syntactical rules of English. However, since the country is in an attempt to greater publicize and integrate words of foreign nature in terms of marketing capability, it is accepted.

But call yourself an otaku in Japan, you're usually never a good thing (Well, what with Densha Otoko's latest craze, Besides amongst other fans).

So the reasoning for the meaning is not because of its roots, but because of the feigned ignorance towards the term.

The same can be said for moe; if it is not defined in Japan as a singular feeling, but a general premise, that premise can't be contested, or shoved into single meaning.

~Chun

[SuperKawaiiNeko]

Eh...

Nakoruru isn't really an oneechara at all. If you played through the PC game, there's a scene where they talk about how Rimururu feels ignored by Nakoruru because she cares more about the forest than her.

A lot of you seem to misunderstand what "moe" really is.

It's not "a character you like" or "a character type you like". It's very broad, but there is set limitations really. Like I laughed when people said "Revy" was moe, because she's not a moe-chara. Revy is a Kakkoii-chara.

Nee-chan chara is not moe either. Nee-chan chara is Nee-chan chara.

Moe-chara are like... Mii-tan, Minabi, Komugi, Minna.

The He is My Master characters aren't really... moe... but they do things that are moe moe~.

Eh, like... a completely innocent cute that can be taken as dirty... is moe. Like, moe is not only female.

It's really... too hard to explain with English, too many ideas and words that don't translate. Moe itself literally means "budding" or "burning" and it's applied to both.

Moe-chara and things that are "Moe" because you can have non-moe chara be moe. Like, Saber from Fate is not a moe-chara, but there is moe-saber things, like saber riding stuffed lion.

This is really way too hard to explain.

*sighs* Yeah, I figured. I wasnt sure just from the member pics thread in Things In The Universe, but now I am.

Youre CrackPr0n arent you? ~_~

Ive actually been wondering when you'd get around to creating a new account and start stirring up trouble =P

*edit* Ive read the rest of the thread, and Im even more sure now =P

To the topic at hand!

Ahh, implied lingual connotations. My specialty.

I'll try to make this short.

I have two words for you: Decolation cake. There are more examples, but that was the first one that came to mind. Its not the best example but it suits my needs well enough. The point is that words are about 60% etymology, 35% cultural requirement, and 5% circumstance. "Decolation cake" isnt native japanese...it isnt even fully grammatically correct in english. But it has been assimilated into japanese culture, and now has a viable meaning outside of its original definition.

Otaku is the same way, but in reverse. As was mentioned earlier, "american anime culture" had need for a term, and it was filled by assimilating a *similer* japanese word into english slang. I had a bunch more to say, but I seem to have forgotten it all, so I'll leave it with this:

The day nihonjin purge all misused forgein words from nihongo (there are only about 10,000 of them) then you can assault the purity of our usage of japanese slang. Im not saying its a case of "They do it to us so we're going to do it back!" Quite the opposite, actually. Im saying that this is how language works. It's a natural progression.

[SohmaYuki]

There's a huge difference with what you guys are saying.

We as outsiders understand the Japanese misusing a word, they don't. Like I gave with the example of a Japanese friend saying something totally incorrect, and trying to correct him(My other roommate has a decent grasp on English, but he misuses words and his grammar isn't so great. I correct him a lot... he tries to learn from it and use them correctly). Why do sites like engrish.com and the such exist. Because we recognize that they don't understand it and laugh at them for it. They try to use it correctly(as for the most part almost everything they say sorta makes sense, but the grammar and word choice are usually terrible) but they fail at doing so due to lack of understanding. Most of these JP people don't go "I will use this word, even though I KNOW it's wrong, but because I like it like that anyways".

That's the difference. See, otaku didn't change meanings in the states. It was misinterpretted, and instead of learning from their ignorance, people choose to turn a blind eye to it and defend their misuse of a word. Why? To sound "cooler" and "more Japanese". Despite how negative a word like "otaku is... there's a lot of problems with people that use it. My favorite is the one that takes it in the totally opposite light. I have otaku friends. Like real otaku friends. People with doujinshi collections upwards to the 5000 mark, and over 100 figuires. People that have 100+ body pillows and 1000 eroge.

By calling yourself an otaku, you give real otaku a bad name. No matter how you argue it, people will defend the otherside... because people do not want to admit weakness in themselves. If I were to say "You shouldn't call yourself otaku" people will argue that the meaning of otaku has changed, and they are anime nerds. Severity is the point, because even by that reasoning I can say confidentally that "I'm more of an otaku than most of you are". Because I am almost positive that I know the culture, the nuances etc. far better than people here. It helpsp having actual otaku friends and what not.

But if you go to the otherside of the coin, and say "You guys are just fake otaku, you don't understand how to be an otaku and are just posers. I'm a real otaku, I spend x amount of time watching anime and reading manga, and surfing these sites, and my colletion is x-big", people will get defensive and state their limitations. "Well I actually have a life, and I don't have that much money", and things like that. So isn't that hypocritical to do so?

People feel comfortable, and someone telling them they're wrong(a complete stranger) at that, is the main issue. If it was a close friend that told you "hey, you're misusing this word, it actually means this" you would not bitch back at him/her and state the things you have here.

Yay for bias. That's all this comes down to. You guys misusing a word, I tell you it is incorrect, and you fighting tooth and nail to justify the misuse... because you cannot accept a stranger telling you that you are wrong. You cannot admit to a stranger that they know more about the subject than you.

[Spiritsnare]

Re: Otaku:

See, otaku didn't change meanings in the states. It was misinterpretted, and instead of learning from their ignorance, people choose to turn a blind eye to it and defend their misuse of a word. Why? To sound "cooler" and "more Japanese". Despite how negative a word like "otaku is... there's a lot of problems with people that use it. My favorite is the one that takes it in the totally opposite light. I have otaku friends. Like real otaku friends. People with doujinshi collections upwards to the 5000 mark, and over 100 figures. People that have 100+ body pillows and 1000 eroge.

Apparently, the definition of otaku has been accepted in Japan, and thus it goes both ways. Dunno if you're one of those guys who consider Wikipedia to be an uncredible source, but I'll cite from its article anyhow. Bolded is your position; italicized is what I speak of.

The term is a loanword from the Japanese language, but in the English/international sense it is used to refer specifically to a fan of anime and manga, though it can sometimes refer to any "nerd," in general. The term serves as a label not unlike the term Trekkie or fanboy. However, use of the label can be a source of contention among older or more moderate anime fans, particularly those who are aware of the negative connotations the term has within some subcultures. As in Japan, unpleasant stereotypes about otaku prevail in worldwide fan communities, and some anime fans express concern about the reputations these more extreme fans can earn their hobby (not unlike sentiments in the comic book and science fiction fandoms).

To indicate that one is talking about the Japanese definition rather than the English loanword, the spelling wotaku (ヲã,¿ã,¯) is sometimes used. On Japanese forums such as 2channel, however, otaku (ã,ªã,¿ã,¯) and wotaku (ヲã,¿ã,¯) are used interchangeably, depending on the mood and personal style of the poster.

[link]

Re: Moe

A lot of you seem to misunderstand what "moe" really is.

It's not "a character you like" or "a character type you like". It's very broad, but there is set limitations really.

I will accept that moe can't be defined like that. However, the character types and characters used in the thread are our representations of what traits make us (and others) feel moe as - if I remember correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong - feelings of moe depend on the audience and their tastes and preferences. For example, an oneesan chara can make the beholder feel moe.

Moe is not only female.

We understand that; however, for the purposes of our little theme thing going on here, we've decided to split male moe traits into a separate section, focusing first and foremost on the female spectrum of moe.

[SohmaYuki]

Re: Otaku:

Apparently, the definition of otaku has been accepted in Japan, and thus it goes both ways. Dunno if you're one of those guys who consider Wikipedia to be an uncredible source, but I'll cite from its article anyhow. Bolded is your position; italicized is what I speak of.

It's a half true. Even actual otaku's get offended when people call them otaku, if it comes from a source outside of another otaku(or otaku circle). It's the same way a lot of black people get offended if you use the "N" word and you yourself are not black.

I mistrust wikipedia for words and terms that come from outside their origin. JP wiki's on otaku and moe are pretty good. I understand the basis of what a lot of other countries(not just the US) state as their "defenition of otaku" but that defenition is based on ignorance. I can't change what people will say, or how they completely think about it, but I can inform them that they are wrong or incorrect in their usage of the word.

I will accept that moe can't be defined like that. However, the character types and characters used in the thread are our representations of what traits make us (and others) feel moe as - if I remember correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong - feelings of moe depend on the audience and their tastes and preferences. For example, an oneesan chara can make the beholder feel moe.

This is half true. Moe is a rather specific feeling, and I don't doubt that some people will get that feeling from non-moe types(in the same ways that people get sexual arrousion by things like bruises, or bloody noses), but in general it isn't. This won't be the best example to use and I know this fully well before stating it, but please bare with me and try to understand the point of why I'm saying it over the literal usage of the two words, and contrary evidence to this specific example.

Sexy vs. Cute. They are two very different aspects and appeals. A girl like Yuko Ogura is very cute, as opposed to being a "sexy" girl. But on the otherside of it, a girl like Angelina Jolie doesn't have a "cute" appeal but a very sexy/seductive appeal. They are very different appeals. Cute girls can be sexy in terms of sexuallity, but the appeal is still very different. Blanket statementing it, some people perfer cute over sexy, and other guys perfer sexy over cute.

Again, I know that example is not perfect, so please don't pick at the minor details like how a girl can be both sexy and cute, but based on how they are very different appeals.

We understand that; however, for the purposes of our little theme thing going on here, we've decided to split male moe traits into a separate section, focusing first and foremost on the female spectrum of moe.

I know, and I'm trying to inform you what moe really is, as it is not so broad as some would like to believe. It'd help if I could use Japanese examples, like TsuyoKiss(the game, not the cartoon), to explain the different parts and understandings of moe.

But on the other hand it is very expansive. Ohno from Genshiken, is a moe chara, but Saki is not.

G'aaaaah.. it's really frustrating because it's seriously sooooooo hard to explain this. I really hope that what I've said helped, because it's a very common misconception by people of what moe is. It's easy to here a few details and to think that it's a broad idea(the same way that happened with otaku and other words).

I am very interested in JP culture, and I like knowing what things are. If I misuse words, I want my friends to correct me. So I don't really get(I understand why... but...) when people feel so offended when they get corrected about something that they only think they know about by someone who does know about it.

I'm not saying all of you are doing that, because a lot of people are actually presenting reasonable thoughts and replies as to question the reality of the subject, which I find commendable(even if they are skeptical about what I have to say).

I mean, shouldn't you be trying to understand the culture you love more, instead of forcibly saying that you don't care about it and continue to misuse things that come from that culture?

[mDuo13]

Anyway, back on our weekly topic:

I was thinking that Mai from My-HiME was also sort of a great moe oneesan. She takes great care of her younger brother despite his weak constitution and their deceased parents, and Mikoto looks up to her as sort of an older sister figure as well. She cooks, she's responsible, and she's quite cute. I love how expressive her face is. (Okay, there was a period when I first started watching My-HiME during which I was borderline-obsessed with Mai and also quite enamored of MPC's screenshot feature.)

You guys got any other great onee-sans?

[Lisu]

Hmm, unfortunately (or not?) I missed the live discussion on this...
I won't pick on the points made because I'd rather not, and I think Yuki's last post ended in a rather nice note that'd I'd leave it as it is. I will simply point out what interested me.

I think you should give more credit to your sexy vs. cute argument. Clear distinctions of the two standards could further explain for people with different environment-defined terms (what you know based on what you have been taught).

As non-aggressive as I would like to put it: "what would you call this then?" of course, that sounds like taking an offensive position. I am merely curios on your input of what we could call something like this thread other than the blunt stating of 'weekly appreciation of things we like in some girls'.  Just honest curiosity.

For the most part, the expansion of perspective in moe is always appreciated, not so much the otaku one, as I can't really remember when the discussion....or use of the word for that matter...came up with this specific group. I think those points are for copying (not saying saving because that'd be aimed at you, copying is for the other board member to have) and using on the people who really need them.