FanimeCon 2007 General Comments and Criticisms Thread.

[Karisma Black]

First off, all of the press that I personally talked to had nothing but positive things to say about the cafe. While yes, the line was long at the very beginning, I think its understandable considering that was the first year we've done things and really had to figure things out from scratch as far as how things were going to work.

Hindsight bias. You are part of the cafe. I was rather unknown person asking for honest opinions of random patrons that walked into the cafe. I was outside on the balcony smoking a lot so quite a few people walked by me during the cafe hours. My exact question was "Hey did you just come out of the fanimaid cafe thing? How was it? Like, what happened exactly?"

And I let them talk about it for however long they did, said thanks and let them leave. Most of your patrons were disappointed and unimpressed.

As far as the whole "more to it" part of the maid cafe, after we got the kinks worked out as far as the actual serving and cleaning up and seating people, we were able to free up more time/maids for socializing more and hanging out with them. I feel bad for people who were unfortunately not able to get the same service as happened towards the end of the con as the beginning, but again, first year and we were figuring things out as fast as we could.

But that's only a minor part of it. Even if it's busy, there are small nuances that make it a maid cafe. Bowing, word choice how you carry yourself. There was no mannerisms or form in what I had witnessed, and not a single person even commented on the mannerisms or actions of the maids at all.

Next year looks to be more promising in ALL aspects. We'll have a bigger room, more maids, as well as we can now start working out kinks of maids socializing and playing games, doing drawings with the patrons, ect. I plan on taking on a bigger part of helping with next year as I feel like I have a good finger on the pulse of how we should change and improve for the future.

Doing drawings? Huh? From what I witnessed and what I knew prior and after... you guys are trying to make it more "Japanese" over more "Authentic". The things like, not taking pictures with them and what not only works when you have long time patrons and an established center of business. It's supposed to be rewards for repeat customers over long periods of time, but that doesn't work when all you have is a weekend, and a few hours per day. There was too much focus on things that DIDN'T matter and no focus on VERY IMPORTANT aspects of what "Makes a Maid Cafe".

On another note, we do accept constructive feedback. However, everything you've said in general about the maid cafe has been nothing but negative. Perhaps if you had not been so argumentative and negative in the past, people wouldn't have been so willing to write you off. If you are genuinely interested in helping improve for next year, key term being HELPING, I'm sure you could take it privately to someone who is willing to take your advice given that it is constructive.

Oh please... welcome to the real world. Negative comments reflect what is being done wrong. There are always pieces and places that need improvement, and without focusing on these parts, things will never get better. You can have millions of people telling you it's wonderful and ignore the flaws you have, but then it won't grow.

Think about it, someone who knows about Maid Cafes, someone who can tell you the differences between the kinds, which are real cafes, which are tourists traps, etc... is telling you "Something is wrong here and you should improve these points" and you're saying he's not being constructive?

I regret taking the time to bother talking to you. Honestly, the entire time you've been on the boards and commenting on this project you have been critical of the entire idea. You've said nothing at all remotely positive, and even on other forums other than Fanime's own boards insulted the Maid Cafe. Yeah, it's great to know what we're doing wrong, but its good to hear what we're doing right as well.

And obviously, in your eyes and in your comments, we aren't doing anything right. In fact, you can't even take the time to be polite and discuss this project without ridiculing someone who took the time to type out a response to you. Phrases like "oh please... welcome to the real world" are not ones that are considered being polite towards the person you're speaking to. While I agree that there can not be a REAL maid cafe exactly like its done in Japan at an anime convention, as far as anime conventions go, for an entirely volunteeer based, no-profit project, I believe we did a good job.

Maids paid money to get their costumes and put a lot of hard work and effort into this project, and honestly, to be attacked for no real reason verbally simply because I was responding to your very negative post is pretty offensive. If you honestly want to help this project, then do so instead of insulting the people, the project, and people on the boards.

[PyronIkari]

PyronIkari, you say that just about everybody you talked to in retrospect had nothing but negative comments about their experience--but as a maid, while serving our patrons and interacting with them directly, most feedback I recieved was positive or at the very least ambivalent. Most patrons seemed quite pleased with the service they recieved, and we had several individuals and parties who came back on the second day to be served again.

I don't deny that some people probably loved it and thought it was the greatest thing sliced bread. But you need to remember your audience. Think about it in this form. Remember why i was banned in the first place? Merit or weight of words didn't matter, it was only for the fact that I was being negative in a community where negativity is frowned upon. That was even anonymously on the internet... in person the magnitude is amplified atleast a hundred. People are afraid of saying something bad, because they believe if they something bad, everyone will gang up on them(like happened to me). Again... it's worse in person. I wouldn't go far as to say "pleased" but "content" I will accept. most of the people I talk to didn't say they hated it or anything, but found it rather pointless. If memory served me correctly, I asked about 9 people that just left the cafe on saturday, 6 people on sunday, and there were two people who I asked during my panel(but I don't count these due to hindsight). That's a small amount of people considering, but when none of them were "happy" or "impressed" then we're talking about getting average ratings instead of "good". This means there was a very major point lacking for something that was supposed to be a "new experience" for these people.

From what I've seen and heard so far, the majority of negative (or at least non-positive) reactions have been regarding the length of the line or the price of the foodstuffs, and very little regarding their actual experience at the cafe or interaction with any of the maids, butlers, or other staff involved. I know we had at least one patron who had several questions regarding authentic maid cafes and how our project at Fanime was attempting to resemble such places, but Karisma took special time out of her duties as a shift manager to sit personally with that patron and answer all of her questions to the best of her knowledge, and in the end said patron seemed completely satisfied with the information she recieved.

Mmm... sorry for this but I don't trust anyone on the staff outside of Jun to give an accurate depcition of what an authentic cafe is, and for her, it's shaky at best. She even knows that, although she has a decent understanding, she only knows so much from her experiences.

The majority of responses I got were that they didn't see how or what the point was outside of the costumes. There was no difference in demeanor or action. What I mean by this was that "They didn't act like maids".

Now, I will acknowledge that some patrons may have been reluctant to say anything negative directly to me because I was an actual serving maid involved in the project, but I find it hard to believe that you are the only person in the world capable of speaking their mind to somebody's face if they have a problem or are confused about something; if there had been so many patrons confused or disappointed with their service, I would have expected at least one or two to say something directly.

You'd be suprised.

Edited for Karisma's post:

So what, you want me to say how great of a job you guys did, and how wonderful it was? Sorry, but it wasn't. You felt insulted by my post? Well, too bad for you then, nothing I said was directly insulting at all, if me telling you guys how you guys made mistakes, what was wrong, and what not... is insulting to you? Then honestly... *TOO BAD*.  This was a volunteer thing... and? I run panels. I ran one of the biggest(if not the biggest panel) this year. A lot of time and effort was put into running it. It went off and was a huge success. I've heard a lot of things that people said sucked about the panel, and did I get pissy about it? Did I say they shouldn't bitch at me, or that they should be constructive? NOPE... WHY? Because they are my audience, and they are the ones that I'm listening to. Fortunately for me... the subject matter of my panel is something I understand. I understand the audience, I understand the subject, I understand what they want... and I plan that accordingly.

You are missing the biggest point of my complaint here. NONE OF YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT A MAID CAFE IS. You give me this bullshit like "Well we did the best we could to be authentic but it's due to *CON* limitations, and *UNION REGULATIONS* that prevented you to be fully authentic? Then let's hear it Karisma... what would you have done if there were 0 limitations? How would maids act? What would they say? How would you regulate things, in what can and cannot be done?

[Xeluu]

Negatives:
-Lack of things to do after 8PM or so. I mean, sure, there's Yaoi-Con's nightly event, and usually one other big thing, but for some of my younger friends (15-16) there's nothing for them to do but go to the dance, as they aren't allowed off-site. Even small panels would have been appreciated.

Did you check out the Asian Film Room area? We usually have themed programming from 6PM - 12AM every night, and in addition, we had some really huge screenings during the prime hours of the evening, including Memories of Matsuko (from the director of Kamikaze Girls), Honey and Clover live-action, the Death Note movies, Jackie Chan's latest film Rob-B-Hood, Dragon Tiger Gate (based on a Chinese manga of the same name), The Host (internationally-acclaimed monster movie from Korea), and a ton more.

We keep our programming fresh and are open all hours of the night, so this might be a place you look to check out next Fanime. It's just too bad that you didn't make time for us this year.

Ah, yes, I was aware of you all, and while I didn't visit this year, I have in the past. I wasn't aware of Rob-B-Hood, and unfortunately I think that programs would have rectified that. x_X Oh well. What I meant by late night programming, was more along the lines of panels and more interactive things. I'd almost say that a Stage Zero at night would be a good remedy. Mind you, Stage Zero is just an example of the types of things I'd be interested in at night.

[Jelly Donut]

Fanimecon 2007 was my first experience at an anime convention. I was pretty much blown away by my surroundings. Everyone that I came across seemed to have a costume. I and a couple of friends that came along were probably the only ones that didn't wear anything. Even so, it didn't stop me from running to the nearest stand, and quickly purchasing an Itachi headband. We were just walking around, and enjoying the experience. I got a picture of myself and a Night Elf from World of Warcraft, so that was pretty cool. It's funny that even though I did feel out of place, I felt right at... home.

I'll probably be at the next Fanimecon in 2008. I probably won't be in the Bay any longer, but if I have to fly in, I'll do it. Even if I'm living in some place as far as Mongolia.

The only criticism I have is that we didn't stay very long; we kept going to the bar to get drinks.

[Karisma Black]

So what, you want me to say how great of a job you guys did, and how wonderful it was? Sorry, but it wasn't. You felt insulted by my post? Well, too bad for you then, nothing I said was directly insulting at all, if me telling you guys how you guys made mistakes, what was wrong, and what not... is insulting to you? Then honestly... *TOO BAD*.  This was a volunteer thing... and? I run panels. I ran one of the biggest(if not the biggest panel) this year. A lot of time and effort was put into running it. It went off and was a huge success. I've heard a lot of things that people said sucked about the panel, and did I get pissy about it? Did I say they shouldn't bitch at me, or that they should be constructive? NOPE... WHY? Because they are my audience, and they are the ones that I'm listening to. Fortunately for me... the subject matter of my panel is something I understand. I understand the audience, I understand the subject, I understand what they want... and I plan that accordingly.

You are missing the biggest point of my complaint here. NONE OF YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT A MAID CAFE IS. You give me this bullshit like "Well we did the best we could to be authentic but it's due to *CON* limitations, and *UNION REGULATIONS* that prevented you to be fully authentic? Then let's hear it Karisma... what would you have done if there were 0 limitations? How would maids act? What would they say? How would you regulate things, in what can and cannot be done?

Okay. Take a chill pill here. First of all, I believe the first post in this thread mentions that flames, non-constructive criticism, and personal attacks are not allowed in this thread. My point is that you didn't say anything constructive as far as how to improve the cafe. You suggested that you talked to a majority of the people who were at the cafe (which you later admitted to being less than 20) and they were displeased. It's great you took the time out of your convention to ask people what they thought, but then again.. where's the room for improvement when you're talking about responses? That's the whole point in constructive criticism. It's criticism that allows someone to construct something better than they did before.

I never claimed to be an expert on a maid cafe. I've never been to Japan, nor been to a maid cafe, and I can't claim that I know a hell of a lot about it. I've read up on some things and I know more about it than an average American congoer, but I can't say that I'd be the person to ask how to set things up. I respect that you spent time working on a panel and whatnot, but don't insult the work all of us put in. We went to a training day, meetings, and a good chunk of us worked the entire shifts of the cafe each day, all of which was a good deal of work. Given that you didn't actually attend the cafe, I don't think you have any room to judge it or say what the audience wants, as you are not a representative of them. You may or may not know more about a Japanese Maid Cafe, but, like I said, things can't be exactly the same within a convention setting.

As far as what I would have people do? Don't bother asking me that question. I'm not an expert and there's no way we can make an ACTUAL cafe with fully trained maids at a convention. What we can do is make an adaptation. And we did. There are things you've mentioned before, such as having privledges for repeat customers that we can't actually do at the convention. There are other things, such as actual handling of the food that we can't do for legal reasons. We can't pour you a soda or do certain things because in foodservice we aren't trained or allowed to mess with any of that.

So what I'm trying to get at here is that yes, we aren't like the Maid Cafes in Japan. We've taken the idea, done an adaptation of it for an American convention and put a lot of hard work into it. We'd like feedback as for as what we can do in the future to try and make it a more positive experience for those who actually experienced the cafe. If you don't have anything to say in regards to that, then I suggest you drop the subject.

[LordKefka]

For people who spent their oh so precious time to bitch about what is wrong, needs to give advice on what they should be doing right, what they should change, and so forth. Simply saying what's wrong isn't enough. That isn't constructive criticism. That's just plain criticism.

Now can we drop the personal attacks before Ryu gets back from work and discovers World War III in this topic.

[Pimpstress Rei]

Oh we finished the program guide a month in advance. The printers were scheduled to deliver the program guides on Wednesday and they just didn't come. The printers had always been on time, if not early so we had no reason to believe they would do otherwise. This just happened to be a very bad year by having their printers break down as well as ours.

Oops!
Well, maybe schedule for them to arrive a few days earlier next time? =.x Hopefully this thing won't happen often.

Since the program guides didn't come until the end of con, now we know that these things need to be worked out! So after discussing it with the convention center, we'll have the program guides on site a week before con just in case. It's really too bad that you guys had to go without one year to learn about this.

And really, this shouldn't happen ever again. I hope you all didn't suffer too much for the printing company's lack of delivery. I know my department scrambled to get you guys maps and such so you would know what's going on at con. We do our best and hope that you guys are ok with what we can provide.

Does this mean you guys have printed programs that arrived after the con was over? ...can we buy them? ^^ they'll be great for memory sake.

Woah I never thought someone would actually suggest buying them! Right now we're discussing our options so there is a possibility of mailing the program guides to people, but the decision might take a while. We would never entertain the thought of selling the program guides! We're not that mean @_@ But thank you for that thought. Makes me feel like someone actually wants to look at my department's work and appreciate it like I do.

[PyronIkari]

This is my point. How can you do an appropriate adaptation of something... when you don't know the original? I made this comparison before, I work in translation. If someone doesn't understand the original, he/she cannot make an adequate translation or output of what the localized version should/can/will be.

I was against things like paying for pictures, because that idea is based on long term patrons. I understood fully well what could and could not be done in food service, but the things that should have been brought over form the original was neither of these things. I didn't offer any suggestions? What about everything I said about mannerisms? Everything I said about how they should place there hands, how they should carry themselves? These ARE things that were very much capable of bringing over from "real maid cafes" that seemed to not be even considered. You are half right in that, I didn't physically become a patron. You are incorrect that I don't know what happened. A lot of friends(again hindisght so I didn't include them in anything I said on these forums) went and they gave me depictions of what happened. I watched multiple people get served while smoking, as well as while I was standing next to the ATM to meet up with people.  I flamed? I made non-constructive criticisms and personal attacks? Just because you do not agree to what I've said thus far does not make what I said any of these things.

First of all, this started out when I made comments about the Maid cafe, and instead of accepting these factual things that happened(yes people said these things so there's no denying that it's factual), you challenged it as if your customers don't know what they were talking about, and thusly had no right to say anything they did. Your patrons said these things... maybe you, should listen to them.

[asscrack]

To each his own, I guess.

Maid Cafe/Criticisms:
How often do you go to a restaurant and tell your waiter/waitress that the food and service is shitty? In the REAL WORLD of things, there are very few people who will voice out their opinions because everyone knows this unspoken rule: Don't piss off the people who handle your food!! There many times when I hold back my tongue at restaurants when the waiters would stop by and ask "how is everything?". While most positive reviews are fine and dandy, how many more people actually held their tongue?

Glompers:
It's obvious that some people don't understand the seriousness of sexual harassment and assault. It is a violation of a person's privacy and should not be taken lightly. If it was up to me, I’d kick the glompers in the balls, then I’d politely ask them to please “knock it off”. And from what I heard this past weekend, they will not stop if you “ask” them to. They will move on to their next target.

Hallway Bums:
If you can't afford a damn hotel room, go sleep at a friends house or in your car. SJCC is considered PUBLIC PROPERTY. FanimeCon PAYS for this event space. This event space does not belong to you, the homeless bums.

Medical Emergencies:
When someone yells at you to get away from a group of paramedics and EMTs, there's a reason why. They need space to work on the patient!! People need to stop taking cosplay pictures at the wrong time. And what is up with the cameras? How would you like it if you passed out unconciously and some random person started taking pictures of you while the medics were trying to stabilize you?

[miss shelby]

I forgot who was selling it (I think it was for some anime convention in Burbank), but they had little stick-on ribbons that that had something along the lines of "Yes, glomp me!"

What I'd like to see is that Fanime issue their own "Yes, glomp me!" ribbon that you can stick on the bottom of your badge. When you go and register (either online or at the con), you can request one. That way, you can look at their badges to see if you they have already consented to be glomped. If they don't have the offical ribbon given out by Fanime, you can't glomp them.

I really don't see how this is going to help.  It's a cute idea, but do you really think the people that are ambushing people are really going to stop to look at their badges?  And most cosplayers don't wear their badges out in the open anyway.

I would really like to see the whole "glomping" thing taken out completely.  Like what was said earlier, you wouldn't do that to someone outside of a convention, so why should it be any different IN a convention?

I understand that kids get excited to see their favorite characters and all that but what if this were, say, Disneyland.  What do you think would happen if someone forgot their manners and ran up on Mickey?   They would get ejected from the park if not banned.

I'm not asking for "ZOMG TEH NAZIS," but it would be nice for these "glompers" to understand that other people would just like to be shown a little common curtesy.

As for the whole badge number thing, it's a little difficult to pick out a number when all you can see is a blur coming straight at you or sneaking up from behind.  :]

[Raydere]

I would really like to see the whole "glomping" thing taken out completely.

I'm not asking for "ZOMG TEH NAZIS,"

...

Glomping and maid cafes are officially serious business. -.-;;;

How about this: if you glomp someone with a "glomp me" sign or other signs of approving it, it's okay. If you glomp someone who DO NOT WANT, you get executed on the spot.

[Tony]

... and getting royally honked at the "no sleeping at the con" rules and the hawks enforcing it.

A rule is a rule... I don't really understand your complaint.

I'm not going to pay $120/night for a hotel room that I'm literally going to have to be taken to in handcuffs by con security (if not the SJPD) to use.  Because that basically costs me 12-18 hours of the con right there.  Multiply it by two nights (much less the three!), and there goes any real need for the four-day pass.

I don't understand this at all. Why would it cost you 12-18 hours of the convention if you had a room? It takes 10 minutes to get back to a hotel room, and the amount of sleep you'll get is the same (since you're already napping in the rooms anyway).

YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE SLEEPING AT THE CON, SHUT THE CON DOWN AT 2 AM OR SOMESUCH.

... how does that make sense? Are you saying you don't want to miss parts of the convention, so we should shut everything down? Staying up that long is near impossible, and attempting it is bad for your health.

Any case, programming is actually arranged for some sleep time. Notice how the schedule gets thin from about midnight to noon.

[Tony]

Ok, the whole maid cafe thing - everyone is really tired of it. Please, distill your criticisms to a bullet-point-list or something, submit the post, and let it be. I don't want all the back and forth. It's an opportunity for a clean slate on both sides, so let's leave it clean.

Or else I'm banning everyone and shutting down the convention. :P

[macmouse]

More schedules, more announcements! Since there was no paper guides/schedules available, you could have used the PA system to announce what things were coming up next.  I could not find *any* info at all about the AMV station, and only came across some video's by pure chance.

I found myself (virtually) running back and forth, from one end of the hall to the other, trying to figure out what was going on.

IMHO, you should design this con to be the most friendly as possible for first time visitors. [Of course, this was my first so I am biased ^_^]. The "Pro's" are going to ignore the instructions and do their own thing anyway, so there is no need to worry about "offending" them.  More signs, with descriptions as necessary.  For the hard to reach places that are off in the corner, make arrow/crossroad signs!!!

Add a "hang out" room. Okay, I know the whole con is in a way but maybe a designated room with more chairs that is sectioned off from everything.  There were a lot of people standing in the middle of the hallway talking, and it looked awkward for them and difficult for those trying to pass by them.  Although i suppose that is inevitable to occur at some level, as that is the nature of the event.

To be honest, I think the people that are complaining about getting hugs are girls. No offense, but it seemed to me that some  of the people holding "free hugs" were semi-creepy and very lonely looking guys (who's only purpose was to hug/glomp a girl).  I mean, I feel sympathy for them and all, but I think those were the one's that were violating people's personal space (without permission).

As a possible solution, perhaps you could make a "hug" or "glomp" room (with large signs) that makes it clear that anyone who enters agrees it is OK to be hugged.  That way, people don't have to deal with signs and guessing people's intention.  For a while, there was effectively a "glomp row" with a bunch of those people right next to each other, and making a designated place would eliminate quite a bit of confusion.   I don't know what would be the ideal way to implement this..

-------

All that said, I do feel that overall fanime was indeed a good event.  Part of Fanime's appeal is because it is zany, spontaneous and informal and we have to be careful to not go too far the other way and suck out the life of the con either.

[RyuHayabusa]

Ok, the whole maid cafe thing - everyone is really tired of it. Please, distill your criticisms to a bullet-point-list or something, submit the post, and let it be. I don't want all the back and forth. It's an opportunity for a clean slate on both sides, so let's leave it clean.

Or else I'm banning everyone and shutting down the convention. :P

Thanks man, i couldn't have said it better myself.


Now, continue on and this time, without the flames, ok?

[Raydere]

Indeed. Internet drama puts me in a I-want-to-kill-everybody-in-sight mood.

[RyuHayabusa]

ahem, no swearing in here as well. can you please edit your post dude. <<

[LordKefka]

Ok, the whole maid cafe thing - everyone is really tired of it. Please, distill your criticisms to a bullet-point-list or something, submit the post, and let it be. I don't want all the back and forth. It's an opportunity for a clean slate on both sides, so let's leave it clean.

Or else I'm banning everyone and shutting down the convention. :P

BLASPHEMY!! Not even God can shut the con down!  8)

[astroboy]

"Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me..."
"Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me..."
"Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me..."

When I found people sleeping, I made an effort to wake them up in a reasonable manner, such as a tap on the shoulder, and remind them they are not allowed to sleep on the convention center grounds.  
....

Thank you rovers dept. for a job well done.

[heeroyuy135]

What's up with all this hating over the Cafe? It was a first year experiment, and it went very well...