Panel and Workshop Suggestions 2008

[fullmetalneko]

Good Day Fanime Fans,

Its time to get that ball rolling early and start with some new panel suggestions!  Though we have a few things lined up already we would like your input!  So if all of you could throw out the following:

Who would you like to see return from last year?
What new things would you like to see added?
Any people you would like to see?

Get thinking!  We have about 10 months, lets get rocking!

[Chun]

I had fun hosting the A18 panel this year, but if you could possible get me a stable internet next time I'd really appreciate it ^^;;.

Melty Blood workshop that I saw on the website and mysteriously disappeared would be nice this next year.

~Chun

[darkknightcecil]

Good Day Fanime Fans,

Its time to get that ball rolling early and start with some new panel suggestions!  Though we have a few things lined up already we would like your input!  So if all of you could throw out the following:

Who would you like to see return from last year?
What new things would you like to see added?
Any people you would like to see?

Get thinking!  We have about 10 months, lets get rocking!

AN person who i want to see is
Peter Cuellen, the voice of Optimus Prime
XDDDDDDD and hes also the voice of that toonami announcer so yeah o_o
Um what should return hmm..

[BunofGovt]

The How to Wear a Kimono panel and the Shoes and Boots panel AGAIN, please.  Thank you.  Due to scheduling, I was not able to attend either.   :?

And more panels on cosplaying tips, demonstrations, etc.

Is it possible to get Katie Bair to do a panel on wigs, hair, or on her manga creation?  I missed her at SacAnime.

[fullmetalneko]

Keep the ideas coming everyone!

Chun:  
Melty Blood Workshop:  What kind of workshop are you asking?  And what format?  What standard are we talking, PC, PS2, Arcade?  Since the latter two are a little harder to pull off than the PC version.  As well as depending on the format it would be rather difficult to really pull off something, hands on.  Fighting game theories are a bit difficult when done just in words and pictures than hands on.  

Though if you have and ideas on this i'm sure myself and kava would love to know.  I know I'm a huge fan of this game and have an arcade setup in my living room.  I just am rather at a loss how to do such a panel.

[PyronIkari]

Alkaline and I were talking about this for the past 2 1/2 years actually. A fighting game panel. The issue with it is, there's too huge of a gap between "skilled" and "beginner". Terminology alone would be too difficult yo convey and you'd have to limit it to either "advanced" players, and "beginner players".

To be honest though... I watched people playing Melty Blood at fanime... and only two of them were "advanced" and they weren't very advanced. Most of them looked like x-copy players(players that watch videos and mimic what they see). And only one player actually seemed like a veteran player. Something that bothers me are people that throw panels when they aren't very "experienced" in what they're throwing panels at. There was a "learning Japanese" panel at Otakon that a few of my friends attended(4 Japanese girls from Japan, 2 of which fluent in English and a friend who is learning Japanese escorting them). The panel was ran by not a single Japanese fluent speaker, and they at best, were beginners. They had little understanding of the language. One of the girls with my friend corrected the panelists some odd 15 times in the 30 minutes they stayed at the panel, for not only grammar mistakes, but pronunciation and word usage as a whole.

I don't think the panel shouldn't happen, but in general, people need to be careful with what they're having a panel about, and really need to know the field that they're talking about. Can't act like an authority on something when you don't have much knowledge in it, especially since you can mislead people into thinking they understand something, when you're actually giving incorrect information.

[magz]

To be honest though... I watched people playing Melty Blood at fanime... and only two of them were "advanced" and they weren't very advanced. Most of them looked like x-copy players(players that watch videos and mimic what they see). And only one player actually seemed like a veteran player.

First off, there's nothing wrong with mimicking the play style of those you see in videos. Among U.S Melty Blood players, it's a generally accepted truth that even the lower tier Japanese players could beast our top tier U.S players.

Secondly, it was hard for most of us that played MB at the arcade to play on HAPP parts due to the fact that the majority of the people in the U.S that even play MB use either keyboard, pad, or arcade sticks with Japanese parts.

Back on topic, regardless of whether or not we'd be "advanced" enough by Pyron's standards to host such a panel, I'd be down for it just to give the game more publicity.

[Chun]

I don't think the panel shouldn't happen, but in general, people need to be careful with what they're having a panel about, and really need to know the field that they're talking about. Can't act like an authority on something when you don't have much knowledge in it, especially since you can mislead people into thinking they understand something, when you're actually giving incorrect information.

From my experience with Melty it is a fairly easy game to get into, but hard to master. Most general blockstring/vulnerability/general bread and butter setups can be easily explained, but not always ideally executable.

I've always thought of a fighting game panel to simply go over tierlists, then break up into character discussion groups. There are no "absolute masters" of the game for every character present, so to go on a case by case/individual group conversation deal would be a way to go.

[PyronIkari]

First off, there's nothing wrong with mimicking the play style of those you see in videos.

-=/ There is, and even in bigger games(3S, GG, etc) you can tell who does and doesn't. X-Copy players never do well and it's mostly because they don't understand the game beyond x-copy. But I don't want to argue this, there's no point unless the person I'm talking to really understands it.

It returns back to "Beginners" or "experts". If you're going to have a panel, you have to gear towards one. Chances are most of the people that attend a melty blood panel are already people that know and play the game... it'll just be a gathering of people that play. Without someone that's an actual "expert" on the game, there's no real point to have the panel other than to meet others that play. Without fully understanding how/why/when you should be doing specifics and the specifics as to the affects, counters of it, nothing is accomplished. I can tell people to do xxx in a game, but unless they understand why it's pointless. It's depremental as a result instead of beneficial. People become dependent on a->b and an opponent acting a->b. It kills stragedy, and only half of the game is played like that.

Edit: 90% of a fighting game is learning how to land a hit, it doesn't matter what hit, just "a hit". Learning combos is after that. There's no point in learning combos and different combo setups if you can't land that initial hit. To learn that, you have to learn the game. Tierlists don't matter unless you understand WHY the tiers are set up that way. I can explain tier lists to a beginner but they won't understand. Much like the tier thread that was in gamers, people would argue why is xx above xy and what not. If you try to explain... say MvC2, where the tiers differences are huge, to a beginner, they won't understand. Why is sentinel sooooo much better than Chun-Li? Chun-Li has infinites almost anywhere off of almost any hit, builds meter almost faster than anyone, and has good supers... yet according to the tier lists, she's low-tier? Why is that?

She can't land that first hit.

You can't really explain that with words though. Why can't she land a first hit? "Because she sucks". That's what it comes down to... to go into detail it would be sooooooooo hard to understand and would take hours and actual physically showing them.

Even to players that decently know video games, it's advanced stuff that takes a lot of explaination. An introductory panel would have to suit people that know very little about fighting games, but then you would be talking about "this is a weak attack, this is a strong attack, this is a dash". It takes weeks to months to learn the basics of a fighting game. Hell, I've been playing fighting games for 20 years now. And not until SFA3 did I really start understanding fighting games. I was good enough to beat most people in arcades prior to that, but not until Alex Valle, Mark Acero, and Rob Ingram started inviting me over to their place to really learn the physics and points of them did I really start to learn. Things like frame advantage, zoning, footsies, counter pokes, hit confirms, and hit box properties. A two hour conversation about why you'd want to use c.short c.jab c.short instead of c.shortx3 and how c.Strong is a better poke than c.Forward. Things you can't learn by x-copying

[Chun]

I can explain tier lists to a beginner but they won't understand. Much like the tier thread that was in gamers, people would argue why is xx above xy and what not. If you try to explain... say MvC2, where the tiers differences are huge, to a beginner, they won't understand. Why is sentinel sooooo much better than Chun-Li? Chun-Li has infinites almost anywhere off of almost any hit, builds meter almost faster than anyone, and has good supers... yet according to the tier lists, she's low-tier? Why is that?

She can't land that first hit.

Why can't she land a first hit? "Because she sucks". That's what it comes down to... to go into detail it would be sooooooooo hard to understand and would take hours and actual physically showing them.

What does it matter that people will or will not understand, or if an opinion of "Hay she sucks kkkk" matters? The panel is there to throw the ideas up towards the novices and the advanced players alike. Is it really that impossible to tell a person "Hey, she's got great combos, but she's got no way to hit them in." They don't need a 5 hour lecture. All they need are some ideas; it's an hour panel, not a week seminar. People will have their opnions on characters, there's no way to please them all; when I say tiers, I state mostly accepted dissertations by the communities behind it.

You can't really explain that with words though.

In the hour given you really can only really give some introductions (Basics, Bara Cancel, Shielding advantages), since all characters cannot be covered. After basics review/introductory alike, people discuss the game into sects for greater understanding/talk. If we had the room large enough such as your room from the Damn You Internets, space would not be a problem either.

Even to players that decently know video games, it's advanced stuff that takes a lot of explanation. An introductory panel would have to suit people that know very little about fighting games, but then you would be talking about "this is a weak attack, this is a strong attack, this is a dash". It takes weeks to months to learn the basics of a fighting game.

Right. But this is a workshop assuming that people have prior experience/need ideas. I don't believe we'd need a full day to explain how a combo works, or how "A B and C" exist.

You're making it sound like we're running a melty camp. It's simply an hour's worth of basic review, then breaking up into favorite tactic groups, not a beginner to badass fullcourse.

~Chun

[PyronIkari]

I can explain tier lists to a beginner but they won't understand. Much like the tier thread that was in gamers, people would argue why is xx above xy and what not. If you try to explain... say MvC2, where the tiers differences are huge, to a beginner, they won't understand. Why is sentinel sooooo much better than Chun-Li? Chun-Li has infinites almost anywhere off of almost any hit, builds meter almost faster than anyone, and has good supers... yet according to the tier lists, she's low-tier? Why is that?

She can't land that first hit.

Why can't she land a first hit? "Because she sucks". That's what it comes down to... to go into detail it would be sooooooooo hard to understand and would take hours and actual physically showing them.

What does it matter that people will or will not understand, or if an opinion of "Hay she sucks kkkk" matters? The panel is there to throw the ideas up towards the novices and the advanced players alike. Is it really that impossible to tell a person "Hey, she's got great combos, but she's got no way to hit them in." They don't need a 5 hour lecture. All they need are some ideas; it's an hour panel, not a week seminar. People will have their opnions on characters, there's no way to please them all; when I say tiers, I state mostly accepted dissertations by the communities behind it.

You can't really explain that with words though.

In the hour given you really can only really give some introductions (Basics, Bara Cancel, Shielding advantages), since all characters cannot be covered. After basics review/introductory alike, people discuss the game into sects for greater understanding/talk. If we had the room large enough such as your room from the Damn You Internets, space would not be a problem either.

Even to players that decently know video games, it's advanced stuff that takes a lot of explanation. An introductory panel would have to suit people that know very little about fighting games, but then you would be talking about "this is a weak attack, this is a strong attack, this is a dash". It takes weeks to months to learn the basics of a fighting game.

Right. But this is a workshop assuming that people have prior experience/need ideas. I don't believe we'd need a full day to explain how a combo works, or how "A B and C" exist.

You're making it sound like we're running a melty camp. It's simply an hour's worth of basic review, then breaking up into favorite tactic groups, not a beginner to badass fullcourse.

~Chun

And... that's my point. An hour of time isn't enough to explain crap. My roommate has been playing fighting games for a good amount of his life, but he didn't understand them until we played for hours a day, and he started researching a lot of stuff on his own. This defeats one point though... trying to gain more popularity for the game.

As someone else put it...

What does it matter that people will or will not understand, or if an opinion of "Hay she sucks kkkk" matters?

Then what's the point of having the panel? It's basically you all getting together to circle jerk about the game. You can do that without a panel.

[Chun]

What does it matter that people will or will not understand, or if an opinion of "Hay she sucks kkkk" matters?

Then what's the point of having the panel? It's basically you all getting together to circle jerk about the game. You can do that without a panel.

You're taking the statement so far out of context it's "curry and ass".

Let's simplify; a projected panel plan:

1. Semi-Basic Movements/Tactics (Inc: Bara Cancel, Reverse Beat; NOT Blood heat, what is EX)
2. Community Collaborated Tierlist Statement (Zero elaboration on individuals, but a explaination of the character scope ["These are considered high tiers because.... "  "These characters are low because they either...")
3. Break into character specific group talks. (Sion safeties, attempts, situational breads...)
4. End with Tsukihime plugs/Type-MOON misc.

~Chun
3.

[fullmetalneko]

Alrighty Folks, notes have been taken and Ill keep following the discussion but since this has gotten a bit more personal id suggest starting a new thread to finish this discussion. Id Appreciate it!  =}

[mDuo13]

What does it matter that people will or will not understand, or if an opinion of "Hay she sucks kkkk" matters?

Then what's the point of having the panel? It's basically you all getting together to circle jerk about the game. You can do that without a panel.

You're taking the statement so far out of context it's "curry and ass".

Let's simplify; a projected panel plan:

1. Semi-Basic Movements/Tactics (Inc: Bara Cancel, Reverse Beat; NOT Blood heat, what is EX)
2. Community Collaborated Tierlist Statement (Zero elaboration on individuals, but a explaination of the character scope ["These are considered high tiers because.... "  "These characters are low because they either...")
3. Break into character specific group talks. (Sion safeties, attempts, situational breads...)
4. End with Tsukihime plugs/Type-MOON misc.

~Chun
3.

This sounds pretty similar to the setup for your Albatross 18 panel this past year. For me, that panel was almost useless because I was such a clueless beginner, having played less than a dozen rounds in game at the time. However, Loktera has mentioned a couple times that your panel helped him out a lot. So it really has to do with the level of experience you're targeting amongst players.

Really, if the goal is to get more people into the game, a "Getting Into Melty Bood" panel would be more useful than "Intermediate Melty Blood Tactics". Such a panel would be easier to give - introduce the game, give some background (who made it, what versions exist, where to find it, where it's going) and explain basic play, then go into general tactics and strategies, plus maybe mentioning tier lists. In general, tier lists are very questionable IMO - if someone is serious about wanting to get into a game, that person will play all the characters* and be able to make their own decisions about which characters they like or are better, and if you give a newbie a tier list, you're just going to discourage him or her from playing the less-represented characters while not actually helping to explain why.

*Note my behavior regarding MB:AC and judge accordingly.

[fullmetalneko]

My personal view of this is that a Melty Blood “Panel” would be great.  Though Tsukihime had a brief surge of popularity Melty Blood remained relatively unknown stateside.  This was due in large part for being a doujin pc game rather than something on Consoles.  There are a few people out there that have jumped on it due to the crazy gameplay videos that are out on the net.  Id love to see something that more just explained what it is.  The characters, the story, Establish the world.  Then maybe explain the basics, button layout, HUD layout Etc.  Then maybe show some of the videos of what you CAN do with it by showing some of those crazy tourney vids.  

As far as a “Workshop” it is difficult if not impossible to have a constructive workshop on fighting games.  People’s personal setup’s are as varied as there are players.  Some, as shown above, hate the American HAPP style controls, though there are some that hate the SANWA Japanese standard.  (Ball-Top Clicky Sticks, Rounded buttons.)  I personally like a hybrid.  I use the American Laser Optic Joysticks with the tear handle but like the rounded buttons.  Not only would it be near impossible to line up game stations numerous enough to facilitate hands on demonstations for all those who attend, the level of people that complain about the joystick layout/design wouldn’t just be 2 or 3 but would probably be most of the room except for whoever brought the sticks.  

It’s a cool Idea and I’m sure that everyone will try to make SOME kind of fighting game panel happen, since it seems there is an interest for it.  Its just that for something really spectacular it really needs to be hands on, and that would prove to be rather tricky.

[Emerge]

so based on what i've read, Pyron, are you proposing a MB panel, one for another particular game, or one for fighting games in general?

as someone has posted, time constraints are probably one of the issues that needs to be addressed, especially if you intend on going into intermediate/advanced tactics and whatnot, so i assume there would be a focal point of it all

[PyronIkari]

I'm not proposing anything. You seemed to have gotten lost in the conversation somewhere. Someone else proposed a melty-blood panel, and I replied in saying that Alkaline and I have both discussed having a fighting game panel before with each other. Within those conversationings we gave up because in an hour, you can't really explain much at all, and it would be very limited to whom you could talk to. A quick overview of the basics/systems/advanced parts of the games would go over the heads of any beginners of the game, because they won't understand 80% of the panel outside of the basic parts. Advanced players would get nothing out of that, since they already know everything you just explained anyways. The only people that would get anything from that panel at all, are people that play fighting games, but have not played Melty Blood itself. The issue with that is, these players would get more out of playing the game for an hour, over listening to someone talk about the game for an hour. So having a basic overlay like that is almost completely pointless.

Explaining Chara types is pointless because you can't sum up characters in like 3 sentences. It will go over almost everyone's head, since most of the characters play rather similarly in terms of basics, it's just usage of specifics that differentiate. It'd be like me trying to explain the differences between Sean/Gouki/Ken/Ryu in 3S. I can't give just a few sentences and you'd understand how they are all different. So you'd either only be covering half of the cast at best, and that alone would take up half an hour easilly.

Now, again I stress this. Let's say there even was more time. Really, how well do you guys know this game to give correct proper explainations, and would be able to answer questions from the audience. I'm pretty certain, I could sit in that audience and throw out questions to you guys, and you'd either have no clue what I was talking about, or I'm fairly certain you wouldn't know the answers to them, and I hate Melty Blood. But the same goes with every panel. Really, you shouldn't be throwing a panel on something unless you could be considered an expert on it in some way. Again, from what I witnessed in the past 6 years at the arcade in Fanime, no one could consistently beat me in any game I took the time to play, and I'm not *THAT* good.

[Nina Star 9]

Trying to steer this a bit back on topic...



Since I definately want to see the Masquerade Ball return, how about having more than one dancing lesson, for those of us that were running around like mad to all the of various things at that time and missed the dancing lesson? Since I could not attend, I do not know, but how were those geared? Maybe have a super basic beginner one (I mean, super basic beginner, starting from where you put your hands on your partner, how to not step on feet/costumes, and etiquette, all three of which I was totally lost on at the actual ball, as I had never really danced before), and then an intermediate level one, maybe even just a demonstartion, for people that know how to do basic dancing, but would maybe like to learn a new technique or two?


Also, how about a Masquerade skit panel/workshop? Has there been anything like this before, and would people use it? I know that I could certainly use some know-how in this area, and I am sure that there are others that could improve on skits and skit ideas and people that are discouraged from performing because of not know what to do onstage. Obviously, it probably wouldn't help for that year's Masquerade, but it can be used for future cons (others that summer, the next Fanimecon), or would that be too difficult, in that various cons have various audiences and that even the Fanime audience changes so much year to year that there is no way to have a one-size-fits-all general tips session?

[fullmetalneko]

Trying to steer this a bit back on topic...



Since I definately want to see the Masquerade Ball return, how about having more than one dancing lesson, for those of us that were running around like mad to all the of various things at that time and missed the dancing lesson? Since I could not attend, I do not know, but how were those geared? Maybe have a super basic beginner one (I mean, super basic beginner, starting from where you put your hands on your partner, how to not step on feet/costumes, and etiquette, all three of which I was totally lost on at the actual ball, as I had never really danced before), and then an intermediate level one, maybe even just a demonstartion, for people that know how to do basic dancing, but would maybe like to learn a new technique or two?


Also, how about a Masquerade skit panel/workshop? Has there been anything like this before, and would people use it? I know that I could certainly use some know-how in this area, and I am sure that there are others that could improve on skits and skit ideas and people that are discouraged from performing because of not know what to do onstage. Obviously, it probably wouldn't help for that year's Masquerade, but it can be used for future cons (others that summer, the next Fanimecon), or would that be too difficult, in that various cons have various audiences and that even the Fanime audience changes so much year to year that there is no way to have a one-size-fits-all general tips session?

I’m so for this.  @_@  I love dancing!  (Ballroom / Choreographed)

[Gwydion]

I'd like to see a panel about cosplay skits. It's so hard to come up with something good for Masquerade, and that stage is huge. Any tips would be wonderful.