English Dubs: Always a no-no, or sometimes acceptable?

[Nyxyin]

I prefer subs because I'm trying to learn Japanese, and I think it helps.  Some dubs aren't so bad, but it's hard to justify the time I spend watching them because then it's just sheer entertainment and I can't fool myself into counting anime as possibly "educational".  ;)

[kimu]

One of my big complaints about this debate or "argument" is the group of "fans" who bash dubs endlessly, but when English dub VAs show up at conventions, they swoon all over them like stars....
(Not saying all those who don't like dubs do this, but....)

I agree that some series are well done, some are very well done.
For me, Fruits Basket was another English dub that sounded really good, with a few painful to the ear exceptions, but then they did still fit the character.

I like to watch both versions. There are only a couple times I couldn't get through more than 10 minutes of dubs, often those are older series.

I'll agree English VAs probably should learn more about the character they are doing the voice for. I think some of them do study up, I wish they all would.
But to say it's their fault if they don't come across like the character did in the original Japanese isn't always fair to blame on the VA. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't....

Start with who chose that VA for that part?
The VAs have to try out for the roles, and someone says "yes, this person for this role."
What if the VA was miscast?
What if some of us are so used to the episodes in Japanese that no matter who they put into that role, the English will always sound weird now?
(I've noticed sometimes, the more I do listen to the English track if I was far along a series in the Japanese version, if it's truly not bad voice acting work--I come to appreciate them more with time. And then finally get to a point where I'm okay with two different voices for the same character.)

Follow up with did anyone explain the character well enough or work with them to get the correct pronunciations for Japanese names or terms being used in the English dub?
Did someone give the VA an inaccurate description of the character in the beginning?
Was the VA given access to listen to the Japanese versions of the character? Or were they supposed to go off and come up with their own version? Would a VA deliberately want to sound more like the Japanese VA or as an actor of voices, put their own mark on the voice for the English version?

Go with the directors or whoever is in that studio with that VA when they are recording.
Someone said "okay" at some point on what they heard the VA record. Then that was edited to make the final version.

Consider how hard the VAs are trying to match the mouth movements.
That has got to be the hardest part of dubbing.
And if you don't like the translation itself, the VA probably wasn't the one who wrote the script. Let alone, think about how hard it is to translate things into another language to carry over jokes and nuances--and then fit it to the timing for mouth movements that weren't designed for English to begin with?

I've met a few VAs, fortunately very nice ones. And a lot of them are trying very hard to entertain us and do their best. And producing an English dub version is a work of a whole team, the VAs just have to stand out in front and take all the hits.

[PyronIkari]

A bunch of stuffs

Not everything you say is true. There's a lot of factors that people assume in concern with VA. I've done work with VA's recordings for games and the such.

Things like lip synching don't exist. Time restraings do, but not lip synching.

In general this is how it works. VA in a sound booth, with the lines on a screen. A time restraint is put up, and narration is given. "Speak the role like this, this is the context, this is the kind of character the person is, now read this line".

Now the major, the overall time restraint. Let's say there are 250 lines spanning anywhere between 3 seconds, to 2 minutes of monologue. This has to be done in 1 day by 5pm, with a lunch break inbetween and a few voice breaks where the VA needs to take 10-15 min, or the sound recorder, director has to take a few mins to handle something. Glitches, or technical difficulties.

On average you're only going to get 3-4 takes AT BEST per line.

Now, the VA can be the right VA for the job, but that doesn't mean they will be able to perform exactly how the director wanted them to in that time span.

So it's not always because the VA can't do the job, nor is it solely the VA's fault, but in general, the VA isn't prepared or culturally aware of the characters they are voicing. Sometimes they do great jobs, sometimes they don't. Would someone else do better? Maybe, maybe not. Let's take the last VA'ing job I did. We had to get 8 major characters, each having upwards to 400 lines each, 20 minor characters, lines ranging from 5-20 or so lines. All this in 10 work days not including sound editing and choosing which takes, etc. etc. etc. You can't go over these days, so if a line gets missed, a line gets recorded badly, you're kinda screwed over all completely, or you're shelling out another few hundreds to thousands of dollars to rebook a recording studio, and bring in the VA. You have the man hours to pay for, the director to come in, the sound engineers, etc. etc. etc.

Your average US VA, knows jack nothing about the characters they are casted for, and know less about the overall culture that reflects within the culture, the surroundings, etc. It's hard to direct someone all of this within the time alotted.

VA'ing is a hard job, extremely hard job that takes not only talent in voice manipulation, but knowledge in people, culture, human interaction etc.

I can tell someone that "you just got into a fight with your fellow student in a martial arts dojo, in the meiji era of Japan. Your character has a short temper, but is in general a very nice person. You just blow up easilly, so you're extremely upset, but you know they're sort of right. Now say this line"...

and do you think they'd be able to land the line in 4-5 takes taking no longer than 8 minutes to move on to the next line?

Do you think... you could do it, even if you had good control over your voice, and the capability to manipulate it how you'd want to? I could tell you right now, your first attempt would probably suck horribly... and it'd make me cringe. Your next would to. Even though a lot of you watch anime, and think you have good understandings of the culture, characters etc. you wouldn't be able to capture the character how the director would want to even if you had more time. I don't blame the VA's for their voice acting skills, because I've heard them do other voices, US voices, for US games, movies, cartoons... and they were done amazingly well. But if you give them a culture, and a situation they do not have a full grasp of understanding, even if the voice fits perfectly... it's not easy to do.

Voice Acting is a hard job, and I WISH that those that do dubs, would research the parts, the culture, etc. more to do a better job. But that's thei perogative. I'm not a full time director, nor are these my projects. I work with what I have, and I try to get the best quality I can when I'm doing this job. I can throw out suggestions, but it's up to them to do it.

[Nyxyin]

One of my big complaints about this debate or "argument" is the group of "fans" who bash dubs endlessly, but when English dub VAs show up at conventions, they swoon all over them like stars....

Personally, I think that's better than them continuing to bash the dub actors when they show up at conventions.  I think it's horribly rude when I can overhear people complaining loudly at the convention about any of the guests.  No matter what, guests are guests, and they should be treated with respect.  People who have a problem with the guests should be talking to Fanime directly, not complaining in public where the guests might hear.

[kimu]

A bunch of stuffs

more stuffs

Actually, I won't claim to be someone with total insider knowledge, I went with what some friends have told me that are friends with some VAs and told me, and things seen on behind the scenes for animated movies...but you made additional points I agree with.
It's hard work.
And as Nyxyin said, I agree we should treat them with respect, even if we don't love someone's work. For me there's no point to be rude to someone if they haven't done anything to me personally to deserve that.

At least we have a choice thanks to the companies releasing the dvds with both Japanese and English tracks.
;D

[AnimeEmperor]

Never ever nearly as good as the original...

[PyronIkari]

Never ever nearly as good as the original...

Golden Boy
Ed in Cowboy Bebop
Porco Rosso in French

some examples of it being better than the original.

[bunnycorpse]

Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

[Altomare]

Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

They stopped using "Believe It!" after episode forty. In the Japanese version, Naruto says "Dattebayo" after almost every single sentance. Clearly, Dattebayo is far more annoying that a few Believe It's.
=|

[bunnycorpse]

Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

They stopped using "Believe It!" after episode forty. In the Japanese version, Naruto says "Dattebayo" after almost every single sentance. Clearly, Dattebayo is far more annoying that a few Believe It's.
=|

oh, i'm still fairly early the series, still stuck in the "believe it" section apparently.

[Jun-Watarase]

Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

They stopped using "Believe It!" after episode forty. In the Japanese version, Naruto says "Dattebayo" after almost every single sentance. Clearly, Dattebayo is far more annoying that a few Believe It's.
=|

I've friends admitting that, though they would notice "dattebayo", they wouldn't find it annoying because it'd blend in with Japanese speech. As for people who understand the language enough to process their sentences, it's a lot more noticeable, and seemingly impossible not to find it annoying.

BELIEVE IT!