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OniCourseMusha

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2008, 03:29:05 PM »

sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off
I don't mind.  This is how I felt (sorry about for the long post)

The glomp/sign issue is like people trying to banned drinking in general.  Drinking makes the person drunk and do crazy/reckless things.  So that means there will be a list of bad thing about drinking.  There are many people will agree and disagree strongly and in the between.  What happens?  Debates happens.  Did that solve anything.  I felt like it resolved nothing and the government did not do sh*t. and you can't do anything about it.  All we have is drink responsibly.

Wait wait... what?! I'm GENUINELY confused. How does that even compare?!
eh...
You don't have to agree wit me.  Cuz I thats how i felt don't want to explain anymore.
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PyronIkari

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2008, 03:30:03 PM »


I feel like glomping/sign issue are the same: Glomping hurts people if they're not careful, signs may the sign of attention.  We now have a list of bad things about those things.  There are many people agree and disagree strongly and in the between.  What happen here?  Debates happens here and causing some stupid drama and misunderstanding.  Will that solve anything?  I don't know cuz it depends on the fanime officials tells us.  So if nothing has changed.  Then i think glomp/sign responsibly.

U wanna know wat else it reminds me when I see issues like this? Jack Thompsom trying to ban violent video games.  I believe he made himself like a total idiot kept on fighting over that!  I felt like one of us might be fighting over pointless stuff like him.

I don't get how/why people keep making horrible comparisons that don't apply.

The difference between this is, that A -> B -> C. and A -> C here. Alcohol can lower inhibitions but it's still the responsibility of the person. Banning alcohol is trying to blame something else, not the person. Jack Thompson's ban on video games, same thing. It's putting the blame on B.

No one has said they should ban glomping, not even I. I've been saying people should be responsible with their actions. Why do I think people should ban signs? Because it's direct promotions. It's not an inhabition, or a hint. It's a statement.

Jack Thompson implies that, if you play violent games, you will act violently. This doesn't state. VIOLENT GAMES TELL YOU TO DO IT, AND TELL YOU THAT IT'S OKAY!". This is what signs do. It's a promotion and command that you should act a certain away.

Promoting people and telling them to act stupid, and saying that such action is okay, is what's going on.
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OniCourseMusha

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2008, 03:33:17 PM »

What i think:

I don't get how/why people keep making horrible comparisons that don't apply.

The difference between this is, that A -> B -> C. and A -> C here. Alcohol can lower inhibitions but it's still the responsibility of the person. Banning alcohol is trying to blame something else, not the person. Jack Thompson's ban on video games, same thing. It's putting the blame on B.

No one has said they should ban glomping, not even I. I've been saying people should be responsible with their actions. Why do I think people should ban signs? Because it's direct promotions. It's not an inhabition, or a hint. It's a statement.

Jack Thompson implies that, if you play violent games, you will act violently. This doesn't state. VIOLENT GAMES TELL YOU TO DO IT, AND TELL YOU THAT IT'S OKAY!". This is what signs do. It's a promotion and command that you should act a certain away.

Promoting people and telling them to act stupid, and saying that such action is okay, is what's going on.
Wow u did your studying really good.  But I really don't care.  Eh.... whatever.
It such a troublesome just to reply back.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 03:55:04 PM by OniCourseMusha »
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PyronIkari

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2008, 05:50:53 PM »

]Wow u did your studying really good.  But I really don't care.  Eh.... whatever.
It such a troublesome just to reply back.
THEN DON'T REPLY...

Why bother replying if you have absolutely nothing worth while to say only to make yourself look stupid? It's not that hard kids... if you don't have jack worth saying, then don't say it. If it's not going to contribute, explain something, show something, or accomplish anything, WHY BOTHER WASTING THE TIME OF NOT ONLY YOU, BUT THOSE READING IT.

Because then you ARE just being an idiot.
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OniCourseMusha

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2008, 06:12:59 PM »

]Wow u did your studying really good.  But I really don't care.  Eh.... whatever.
It such a troublesome just to reply back.
blah blah blah
Because then you ARE just being an idiot.
Because you ARE just being an smart ass!  This is why you are troublesome.  Even if I reply back to you start bringing more crap against me over my opinion!  Coming from the guy who got claimed that sign banned was true.  You make me laugh everytime u post!

This is my last post on this topic, and even if Mikey tries hundred fuckin ways of calling me stupid or insult me i'm just gonna ignore it cuz thats Mikey for you after reading all his post and its gonna waste my time.  He'll just make himself look more dumb.  Bye!
But I am gonna be aware of the sign/glomp issue.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 07:50:12 PM by OniCourseMusha »
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PassingTheBuck

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2008, 07:31:12 PM »

***SNIP***
Promoting people and telling them to act stupid, and saying that such action is okay, is what's going on.

Interesting.

Your solution is what for the Signage-People again?

You have stated that anyone Glomping you will get physically injured.  Period, end of statement.  Okay, but that's you.

What are you proposing again for Signage-People again?  Banning them?  Right.

Craige...
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PyronIkari

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2008, 10:13:51 PM »

Because you ARE just being an smart ass!  This is why you are troublesome.  Even if I reply back to you start bringing more crap against me over my opinion!  Coming from the guy who got claimed that sign banned was true.  You make me laugh everytime u post!

This is my last post on this topic, and even if Mikey tries hundred fuckin ways of calling me stupid or insult me i'm just gonna ignore it cuz thats Mikey for you after reading all his post and its gonna waste my time.  He'll just make himself look more dumb.  Bye!
But I am gonna be aware of the sign/glomp issue.

But what I say about your opinion applies and shows flaws in the logic of your opinion. So you get mad at people who point out how your opinion is stupid and doesn't make sense? Sorry kid, you're not perfect, your opinion isn't always perfect, so don't be suprised if people point that out.

Quote
Interesting.

Your solution is what for the Signage-People again?

You have stated that anyone Glomping you will get physically injured.  Period, end of statement.  Okay, but that's you.

What are you proposing again for Signage-People again?  Banning them?  Right.

Craige...
And what was the point of this?

If someone attacks me, they shouldn't be suprised if I react by back handing them in the face as soon as I feel them touching me.

Banning signs makes logical sense. For the most part, those signs have no reasonable basis for even existing anyways. I mean, there's millions of ways to whore yourself out and get attention. Signs just make it more apparent. And it's that apparency that causes idiots to flock and act like idiots.
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Joecool1

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2008, 10:33:37 PM »

Hey guys! Wats up wit this stupid essays?  Especially Ikari's essay? My head hurts reading these things.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 10:41:48 PM by Joecool1 »
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Jun-Watarase

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2008, 10:50:57 PM »

Hey guys! Wats up wit this stupid essays?  Especially Ikari's essay? My head hurts reading these things.

Then don't read. Or respond. Thanks.
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PassingTheBuck

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2008, 12:44:10 AM »

Quote
And what was the point of this?

If someone attacks me, they shouldn't be suprised if I react by back handing them in the face as soon as I feel them touching me.

Banning signs makes logical sense. For the most part, those signs have no reasonable basis for even existing anyways. I mean, there's millions of ways to whore yourself out and get attention. Signs just make it more apparent. And it's that apparency that causes idiots to flock and act like idiots.

The point of any communications PyronIkari in its finest form is debate, which is achieved by exchanging points of views, until the point has become dull.

You PyronIkari don't like Glompers.  You have stated it clearly and if Glomped you will physically attack your Glomper.  You've made that clear.  I expect that you and I will be seeing each other when you are Glomped, you physically attack them back and somewhere along the line the Police Officers, who are working for the event get involved. 

Therefore I sure that we can at that point can continue this delightful discussion in person, but frankly I highly doubt it’s going to happen.

As for the Signage-People, your opinion is noted, you dislike anyone who has a sign or even uses one at the Fanime and you want them off the event space floor.  Understood!  The exact process for doing this is, what PyronIkari, how would you enforce this decree?

Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?

Craige…
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 12:51:45 AM by PassingTheBuck »
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Joecool1

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2008, 12:48:47 AM »

Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?

Craige…
No
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luckyends

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2008, 05:04:35 AM »

Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?

Craige…
No
nope
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Stormfalcon

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2008, 07:35:16 AM »

Unwanted glompers: I won't resort to violence, but I won't hesitate to report them to the police either if Fanime won't do anything about them.  If they want to glomp each other with permission, that's fine.  They should leave everyone else alone unless they obtain express permission beforehand.

Sign-holders: I honestly wish Fanime would do something about them as well like other cons do.  I understand that it's far down the list of priorities due to stretched resources, but this honestly was the seed of the whole matter.  If Fanime did something about this a few years ago when it first started becoming evident, I doubt we'd have these kind of problems today.
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Jun-Watarase

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2008, 08:48:09 AM »

Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?

Craige…

On glompers, neither I or PyronIkari would actually resort to violence unless necessary, as in... not letting go and what have you. It is an issue attendees deal with, and people on the boards HAVE APPARENTLY already expressed similar opinions. Some have even said they've been injured, had their property damaged, and even violated. In some cases, I've seen glomping used as a distraction for stealing. No one so far has expressed interest on banning glomping, for reasons that have been repeated at least 20 times. The only efficient way to a solution is to make it known, whether by word of mouth or signs and announcements at the con. So far, despite it seeming like a neverending "battle", there have been people who have learned and become aware of the issues of glomping from threads on the boards, people who have improved and kept in mind that it's better to ask strangers, and glomp amongst friends.

As for banning signs, if a ban isn't possible... some regulation at least would be good. Many of those that carry signs don't actually wait for people to pass by them, rather, they follow people around and show them their signs and their instructions, instead. There had been at least 2 people last year that did the whole glomp-count thing that I encountered. They'd patrol the con, asking people to hug them and then sign a tally-- one of which asked politely, which seemed okay. Another, however, pestered other people with a group of friends around him, shouting "OMG HUG HIM SO WE CAN GET HUNDREDS OF COUNTS!!!" ... unless it was just the same person. Anyway, Fanime could at least confiscate inappropriate signs that imply exchanging anything to do with their bodies, and signs from people who abuse its attention. Banning it altogether would make it a lot easier, but if people don't agree with that, at least there should be a compromise.
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Long

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2008, 09:05:51 AM »

Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.

It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:
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Jun-Watarase

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2008, 09:09:38 AM »

Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.

It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:

Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
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Long

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2008, 09:16:58 AM »

Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.

It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:

Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
That is the point of signs my dear. You wouldn't hold a sign if you wanted to be inconspicuous.
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Jun-Watarase

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2008, 09:28:46 AM »

Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.

It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:

Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
That is the point of signs my dear. You wouldn't hold a sign if you wanted to be inconspicuous.

Key word is abuse. The purpose for signs are for attention, but for people to notice on their own and hug them when they pass by-- not for people to carry around a sign for an excuse to hug people who pass by them, follow them around, or shout at them, "HUG ME~!!". Anyway, the point of my post was to say it's legal for FanimeCon to put a ban on signs.
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Long

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2008, 09:36:52 AM »

Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.

It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:

Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
That is the point of signs my dear. You wouldn't hold a sign if you wanted to be inconspicuous.
Anyway, the point of my post was to say it's legal for FanimeCon to put a ban on signs.
Yes, I realize that now. However, putting a ban on signs and therefore people's implied right at free speech which actually doesn't apply in this case, is just asking for trouble. People aren't going to be happy about it, and it might start a ruckus.
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PassingTheBuck

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Re: Fans are ignored?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2008, 09:38:43 AM »

Okay, let me see if I've got this straight, Long and Jun-Watarase are on the opposite view of Signs issue, let's drop the Glompee vs. Glomper problem for the moment.

While Fanime is owned by ARG, we are renting a city owned facility, which means we're tenants at best, not the owners of the property.  If they, the City dictates a standard of conduct, we would have to apply it to everyone, which in fact we do, the City says you can't smoke inside the building, because of health concerns, so you can't.  The City says that you can't spray paint the walls inside the convention and we expect our attendees not to spray paint the walls.  However, the City allows the freedom of expression of your thoughts, whether written or oral, thus, Fanime can't ban signage, per say, if those sign are not of an illegal nature. 

--Side Track for a moment-- Now I find it funny that Fanime should post signs banning signage of any type and posting on the walls and pillars that we are instructing the sign people that they can't use.  --Okay, back to hard stuff-- 

In any forum, such as Fanime, you will get people who use signs as a communications vehicle and follow all the suggestions made by those of their peer group and of course, you will get a few bad apples who insist upon pushing the envelope.  However, in a free society, where there are two opposing views that are going to be clashes over an issue, our society has always found that fewer restriction will always work better than placing more restriction on our peer group.

As for doing a blanket wide ban vs. a selective ban, it is much tougher enforcing a selective ban, because the judgment is left up to the individual to decide and by taking the judgment out of the individual to enforce that policy and making a blanket, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Therefore it would seem that being flexible is a harder task to achieve than simply restricting everyone's rights to express themselves (legally, of course), which is what is referred to as the moral high ground.

Craige...
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