Fans are ignored?

[Jun-Watarase]

Therefore it would seem that being flexible is a harder task to achieve than simply restricting everyone's rights to express themselves (legally, of course), which is what is referred to as the moral high ground.

Craige...

As said on one of my previous posts, "Banning it altogether would make it a lot easier, but if people don't agree with that, at least there should be a compromise." It would be a lot more difficult, but there are types of signs that should be dealt with, regardless, such as ones that imply any sort of prostitution or exchange for money illegally. Also, those who abuse the use of a sign to harass other people, if observed, should have some sort of intervention. In any case, it's complicated-- banning signs would be an inconvenience to a lot of people and restrict their rights to freedom of speech, but when the problem develops into something troublesome, a ban is the easier solution.

[phoenixphire24]

Exactly Jun!

I don't really care about signs except when the people carrying them are causing problems because of their actions
(unless the sign is obviously offensive-like asking for sex or other inappropriate contact). Following people around and bothering them, blocking walk ways, or covering helpful signs (like maps, cosplay locations) are the problem for me, not the signs themselves. This is something that can and should be reported. I don't think a sign ban would prevent this. People who want attention will just find some other way to do it.

[PassingTheBuck]

As said on one of my previous posts, "Banning it altogether would make it a lot easier, but if people don't agree with that, at least there should be a compromise." It would be a lot more difficult, but there are types of signs that should be dealt with, regardless, such as ones that imply any sort of prostitution or exchange for money illegally. Also, those who abuse the use of a sign to harass other people, if observed, should have some sort of intervention. In any case, it's complicated-- banning signs would be an inconvenience to a lot of people and restrict their rights to freedom of speech, but when the problem develops into something troublesome, a ban is the easier solution.

Now we are down to the bare bones of the matter.  It's the illegal signage that should be removed.  Agreed.  However, there are only a limited number of people who can take them away, legally, and that would be Rover/Safety staff, senior management and ARG personnel.  If in my wanders around the floor, I observe such a sign, than I will be more than glad to remove any signage that promotes "prostitution or exchange for money illegally" and in fact I have done this, but there is a fine line between what is legal and illegal and unless it's over the grey line, I would feel comfortable doing it.

I'm sure that Rovers/Safety would be doing the same procedure too.  Does that help?

Craige...

[PyronIkari]

It's amusing how Craige is bringing up all this. I'd like to point out how many other cons have banned signs in almost the exact way I have stated, and they're doing fine. Sure, some people will get away with their signs, as con staff can't be everywhere and see everything, but a lot of cons put it in their rules, their websites, their newsletters, the programs book, and what not... and it DOES cut down and prevent the problem quite a bit.

It won't completely abolish the problem, but it will help, and isn't that the point?

Frankly, if Fanime doesn't want to do it, fine, I have no problem with that. It's not my convention, I'm not the chair, so it's not my decision. I'm merely presenting the idea, my views, and evidence to support it.

Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.

[Joecool1]

It's amusing how Craige is bringing up all this. I'd like to point out how many other cons have banned signs in almost the exact way I have stated, and they're doing fine. Sure, some people will get away with their signs, as con staff can't be everywhere and see everything, but a lot of cons put it in their rules, their websites, their newsletters, the programs book, and what not... and it DOES cut down and prevent the problem quite a bit.

It won't completely abolish the problem, but it will help, and isn't that the point?

Frankly, if Fanime doesn't want to do it, fine, I have no problem with that. It's not my convention, I'm not the chair, so it's not my decision. I'm merely presenting the idea, my views, and evidence to support it.

Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.

Sound all cocky everyday, eh.  Heh hyprocrites these days.

[Jun-Watarase]

It's amusing how Craige is bringing up all this. I'd like to point out how many other cons have banned signs in almost the exact way I have stated, and they're doing fine. Sure, some people will get away with their signs, as con staff can't be everywhere and see everything, but a lot of cons put it in their rules, their websites, their newsletters, the programs book, and what not... and it DOES cut down and prevent the problem quite a bit.

It won't completely abolish the problem, but it will help, and isn't that the point?

Frankly, if Fanime doesn't want to do it, fine, I have no problem with that. It's not my convention, I'm not the chair, so it's not my decision. I'm merely presenting the idea, my views, and evidence to support it.

Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.

Sound all cocky everyday, eh.  Heh hyprocrites these days.

Every single one of your posts have something negative to say about Pyron... but did you honestly need to make a new account to do so? Instead of hiding behind an anonymous account, how about you grow some balls and express your opinion with your actual identity. Otherwise, if you really have nothing to contribute other than stupid empty comments, don't post at all. kthxbai

[Joecool1]

I just came back from 4chan and I just had to be an ass!  I just had to point it out to people while he had to be so negative towards other people.  Heh! People who back him up!  Very funny!

My name is Joseph btw.  The most evil guy you're ever meet.  I'm gonna go talk shit to other people if you don't want me to target you!

[Moonblossom]

:/ Pyron is admittedly not my favourite person on the planet, and I am fond of Craige, but honestly Joe, you're just coming off as cowardly and immature here, not witty and badass. If you have a legitimate argument with something someone is saying, that's fine (as is Pyron's case), but you're just making stupid smart-ass remarks without and grounding here. It's childish, it's petty, and I doubt it's scaring anyone. I also doubt you're even remotely as bad as the most evil person I've ever met.

[PassingTheBuck]

Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.

Now who is personally attacking whom?  However, your opinion is noted.

The point still being that you have pointed out the issue and as you have noted on other threads, that's what you do best, you are not a physically, hands on guy, who wants to do the dirty work, that what's best left up to Fanime to do.  Okay.  Your point is noted.

Where you and I part on this debate is it best to throw the baby out with the bath water.  You say yes and I say no.  You have told me everyone else is doing banning signs, therefore it is what is best for everyone, I say that doesn't make it right.  You have noted that you are offended (and have said the alot of other people are too) and I say that of 10,000 plus people who attend, we are going to get a few bad eggs and yes, we need to be proactive (I happen to agree that to the Policy of Conduct needs to be created and message spread around), however, with less than 90 days to start of the convention, it would require a great deal of man power, resources and energy that are need, at this time to be pushing a variety of different areas in Fanime, such as programming.

Again, I've asked you to help, to get in there with both hands and help out, you've told me flat 'no', that's not your fortay.  That leaves it us to do the dirty work and I doubt that this year we will have the manpower to do anything about it.

Craige...

[fold]

Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.

Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.

Thanks! But it wouldn't be arbitrary. To address your OP, we are indeed listening, but we are grounded in law; depending on your view, we are either enabled or restricted by that fact. Ultimately we have to make a decision, and of course those who are opposed to it will feel that they have been ignored. That's almost never the case; there are almost always other, bigger circumstances at play. This is one of them.

I believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.

Yes and no.

(Excuse me as I talk in metaphor here. I hate doing that, but it's a shortcut.)

There's the black and white part of the issue, and then there is the gray area.

The black-and-white portion is fully a legal issue. If you touch someone without their permission, you open yourself up to legal action by that person; if you go around with a "will have sex for money" sign, you open yourself up to legal action. That's it, end of story.

What you're talking about is the gray area, which is fully up to Fanime to enforce (or not) through the use of our member policies. After all, as a private event, we can mandate all sorts of crazy things to be a part of our convention.

[Personal opinion]
So, let's agree that the only issue in the gray are the signs. (Unwanted glomping is simply in the black, and consensual glomping is no one's business, simply in the white, and so is also a non-issue.) Again, the signs fall into black, white, and gray areas. Solicitation laws prevent the clearly black signs, so the only thing left are the white and the gray. I would put signs that are part of a cosplay (ex: Genma as panda) or are signage ("Bleach gathering here") in the white. The rest I would consider gray.

For signs that fall in the gray area, it's easier to disallow these on a subjective/case-by-case basis than to write out a precise policy and enforce it. It ends up being contradictory on some level anyway, and is overall just a waste of time.

What I'm saying is, we're pretty much covered already. If you want a policy, I would put it like this:
- Don't do anything illegal. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out. And arrested and/or sued.
- Don't do anything stupid. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out.
- We can kick you out for anything. Don't be surprised if you get kicked out.  ;D

But don't be discouraged. We like our members. We don't kick people out lightly.
[/personal opinion]

Just my opinion.

yay tony! moderator extraordinaire! thank goodness for level headed mods.

[Joecool1]

:/ Pyron is admittedly not my favourite person on the planet, and I am fond of Craige, but honestly Joe, you're just coming off as cowardly and immature here, not witty and badass. If you have a legitimate argument with something someone is saying, that's fine (as is Pyron's case), but you're just making stupid smart-ass remarks without and grounding here. It's childish, it's petty, and I doubt it's scaring anyone. I also doubt you're even remotely as bad as the most evil person I've ever met.

Yes I am a coward I tend to run away like ninjas "OH SHIT SOMEONE FOUND ME!!"!! He makes smart-ass and I'm called smart-ass, hahahaha!  Who the fuck is the REAL smart-ass?  Now people is feeling sorry for him!  *runs*
My real argument here is STFU!!  Except for Craige since he has a word of wisdom.  I agree wit Craige fully, and forgive me for being this evil!

[Xeluu]

...I happen to agree that to the Policy of Conduct needs to be created and message spread around), however, with less than 90 days to start of the convention, it would require a great deal of man power, resources and energy that are need, at this time to be pushing a variety of different areas in Fanime, such as programming...

Craige...

An idea then, if I may. Create a code of conduct and post it on the main site, and link to it when you send out the receipt to pick up pre-reg badges. Then, post the code of conduct by each line, so when people pick up their badges they'll have a chance to read over them.

Also, I go back to the TV screens idea. I know this all makes a bit more work for Fanime, and heck, at this point may not be possible for this year, but I'd like to think that's low work and could be accomplished in less than a day's time.

Perhaps that's just me being optimistic though.

[PyronIkari]

I'm not even the only person on this forum that is saying these things though(there's a pretty large handful that don't care otherway, and there are more in support of being harsher on glompers and the such than those that aren't.

I don't even understand what you want me to do now, not post my opinion on the issue any more? You're basically saying you don't agree, and you don't want me to post my opinion anymore.

[PassingTheBuck]

...I happen to agree that to the Policy of Conduct needs to be created and message spread around), however, with less than 90 days to start of the convention, it would require a great deal of man power, resources and energy that are need, at this time to be pushing a variety of different areas in Fanime, such as programming...

Craige...

An idea then, if I may. Create a code of conduct and post it on the main site, and link to it when you send out the receipt to pick up pre-reg badges. Then, post the code of conduct by each line, so when people pick up their badges they'll have a chance to read over them.

Also, I go back to the TV screens idea. I know this all makes a bit more work for Fanime, and heck, at this point may not be possible for this year, but I'd like to think that's low work and could be accomplished in less than a day's time.

Perhaps that's just me being optimistic though.

Fanime has a Code of Conduct Policy and it has been printed in all the Program Books, but in the past there have not references to Glomping or Signage.

I see nothing wrong in what you are seeking, but that's never really been the real issue, it's the enforcement of the Code.

Craige...

[M]

So there seems to be two topics in this forum about the same thing (they started out different, but ended up being about the same thing). Please use the other post.

http://forums.fanime.com/index.php/topic,8890.0.html