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Author Topic: What grinds your gears?  (Read 38856 times)

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Kaura117

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #280 on: June 18, 2008, 11:44:32 PM »

OMG DIDN'T YOU LIKE WATCH OURAN HOST CLUB? I WATCHED 8 EPISODES AND NOW I KNOW ALL ABOUT HOST CLUBZ! I WANT TO GO IM SURE THERES A BUNCH IN AKIBAHARA (WHICH IS LIKE IN TOKYO BTW, IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE TOTALLY KNOW) IT'S LIKE THAT TOTALLY I LOVE YAOI I LOVE HOST CLUB I BOUGHT OURAN CELL PHONE STRAP IN FANIMU LOL ^^.

j

...I am fully aware that you are satirizing fangirls. Nonetheless, I wish to inflict grievous bodily harm upon you for putting that within my range of sight- regardless of whether or not it was my own fault for reading it. Please be advised that the itching sensation around your neck is, in fact, your impending doom manifesting itself tangibly.

But, first, must wash my eyeballs.
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PyronIkari

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #281 on: June 18, 2008, 11:48:44 PM »

On the other hand, rationally, the women go into a host bar fully aware that it's an illusion- and should they cross the line (sexual harassment works both ways), I do believe most establishments would have a policy of reinforcing the facts of the illusion swiftly (shady doesn't equal illegit- you'd only want to toe the line so far, most cases).

Whether or not they choose to deliberately forget the reality of the deal is a personal matter, otherwise.

It's escapism. While there are some serious moral quandaries with the varying levels of exploitation in specific bars, I'm personally not at all in favor of moralistic legislation. Keeping things above-table is good enough in most cases.

They do, but they don't acknowledge it's an illusion. Cross the line? Uh... there's no such thing. Host clubs by defenition are shady. There's also the prostitution that comes from host clubs, but that's usually really expensive(more than US high-class escorts).

It's easy to say it's just "escapism" but it goes beyond that. Why do people get addicted to MMO's? They no longer see it as escapism, but instead seek it as a replacement for the real world.
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LastElixir

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #282 on: June 18, 2008, 11:49:36 PM »

OMG DIDN'T YOU LIKE WATCH OURAN HOST CLUB? I WATCHED 8 EPISODES AND NOW I KNOW ALL ABOUT HOST CLUBZ! I WANT TO GO IM SURE THERES A BUNCH IN AKIBAHARA (WHICH IS LIKE IN TOKYO BTW, IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE TOTALLY KNOW) IT'S LIKE THAT TOTALLY I LOVE YAOI I LOVE HOST CLUB I BOUGHT OURAN CELL PHONE STRAP IN FANIMU LOL ^^.

j

...I am fully aware that you are satirizing fangirls. Nonetheless, I wish to inflict grievous bodily harm upon you for putting that within my range of sight- regardless of whether or not it was my own fault for reading it. Please be advised that the itching sensation around your neck is, in fact, your impending doom manifesting itself tangibly.

But, first, must wash my eyeballs.

lol okay, sure.

j
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Kazuko

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #283 on: June 18, 2008, 11:54:22 PM »

OMG DIDN'T YOU LIKE WATCH OURAN HOST CLUB? I WATCHED 8 EPISODES AND NOW I KNOW ALL ABOUT HOST CLUBZ! I WANT TO GO IM SURE THERES A BUNCH IN AKIBAHARA (WHICH IS LIKE IN TOKYO BTW, IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE TOTALLY KNOW) IT'S LIKE THAT TOTALLY I LOVE YAOI I LOVE HOST CLUB I BOUGHT OURAN CELL PHONE STRAP IN FANIMU LOL ^^.

j
OMG I TOTALLY LYKE WANT TO GO TO ONE TOO, I BET WE CAN SCREAM MOE TOGETHER AMIRITE?

lol J you made my night
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Mister_E

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #284 on: June 18, 2008, 11:56:16 PM »

I hate it when I have to cook my snack a longer when it's still cold in the center.
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Kaura117

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #285 on: June 19, 2008, 12:05:19 AM »

On the other hand, rationally, the women go into a host bar fully aware that it's an illusion- and should they cross the line (sexual harassment works both ways), I do believe most establishments would have a policy of reinforcing the facts of the illusion swiftly (shady doesn't equal illegit- you'd only want to toe the line so far, most cases).

Whether or not they choose to deliberately forget the reality of the deal is a personal matter, otherwise.

It's escapism. While there are some serious moral quandaries with the varying levels of exploitation in specific bars, I'm personally not at all in favor of moralistic legislation. Keeping things above-table is good enough in most cases.

They do, but they don't acknowledge it's an illusion. Cross the line? Uh... there's no such thing. Host clubs by defenition are shady. There's also the prostitution that comes from host clubs, but that's usually really expensive(more than US high-class escorts).

It's easy to say it's just "escapism" but it goes beyond that. Why do people get addicted to MMO's? They no longer see it as escapism, but instead seek it as a replacement for the real world.

Oddly, the latest sociological findings around MMOs actually point to a trend in players becoming more socially adept over time, with notes on some preliminary findings regarding gameplay and increased basic intelligence (respectively, group participation and decision-making speed). The MMO addiction panic first popularized was also found to have been based at least partially on arbitrary statistics. While real-world deaths of addicts are all too real, the ratio of functional players and addicts is likely no worse than any other competitive social activity.

But that's an aside. Back on the subject of host clubs, I note that generalizations only serve to weaken one's position, not enforce it- saying "all host clubs are bad" leaves one's position open to assault via exceptions and specifications. As does labeling the entirety of its clientele base as deliberately misled. Rather, all you've effectively argued is that there should be more oversight of such organizations to keep them nominally respectable as to modern community standards. And even that is very much dependent on specific communities in question.
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PyronIkari

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #286 on: June 19, 2008, 12:44:44 AM »

What exactly are you basing these "exceptions" on? Frankly, I doubt anyone here has been to a host club or know about them. Least half as much as what I've read up on, experienced myself, and discussed with a few who have been etc.
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rude32

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #287 on: June 19, 2008, 07:57:02 AM »

I hate it when I have to cook my snack a longer when it's still cold in the center.
Whats even worse is when you bite into it to find out it's cold in the middle. At least if you feel it cold you won't be as disapointed.
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Kaura117

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #288 on: June 19, 2008, 08:01:07 AM »

What exactly are you basing these "exceptions" on? Frankly, I doubt anyone here has been to a host club or know about them. Least half as much as what I've read up on, experienced myself, and discussed with a few who have been etc.

Never, ever trust hearsay and personal anecdote. They're the least reliable form of datagathering available to you. They're a good place to start from- but further research is necessary if you're actually interested in the truth.

And the truth of the matter? Host clubs were a fringe industry. Now they're in the spotlight.

Note that the three articles identify the two main trends amongst Japanese hostclubs- an increase in respectability, and a decrease in the average age of the women clientele. As more attention is focused upon this fringe industry, more pressure is put upon it to conform to standard regional morality- which then, luckily for them, opens them up to a larger clientele base. Are there still seedy clubs? Is there still the stink of prostitution lingering over their reputation? Certainly- but the trend is going against it.
 
I'm not a huge fan of the libertarian lasseiz faire approach to market regulation (people are too fucked up for that to be a universal solution), but a hell of a lot can be said for casting a bit of sunlight in the right corners.
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PyronIkari

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #289 on: June 19, 2008, 08:19:40 AM »

News articles from foreign papers about Japanese sub-culture. Do you realize how skewed those articles are? They're just about as skewed as all the coverage on Akiba and maid cafes.
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Kaura117

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #290 on: June 19, 2008, 08:40:36 AM »

News articles from foreign papers about Japanese sub-culture. Do you realize how skewed those articles are? They're just about as skewed as all the coverage on Akiba and maid cafes.

That's an insufficient argument. At the very least, the Times article was written by a native correspondent.  And they're less skewed than personal anecdote- which, again, is about as concrete as aerogel. Not to mention that while the first assertion that I made- that the host clubs are inching towards respectability- might be considered highly subjective, the second point- that the average age of its clienteles are dropping- isn't. The fact of the second even supports the first- you don't get increased and younger clientele without first building a more positive reputation.

There were a couple Japanese paper articles I wanted to link, but they were both apparently lost after a merger between two papers. Irritating, but that's just how things go sometimes.
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PyronIkari

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #291 on: June 19, 2008, 12:53:47 PM »


That's an insufficient argument. At the very least, the Times article was written by a native correspondent.  And they're less skewed than personal anecdote- which, again, is about as concrete as aerogel. Not to mention that while the first assertion that I made- that the host clubs are inching towards respectability- might be considered highly subjective, the second point- that the average age of its clienteles are dropping- isn't. The fact of the second even supports the first- you don't get increased and younger clientele without first building a more positive reputation.

There were a couple Japanese paper articles I wanted to link, but they were both apparently lost after a merger between two papers. Irritating, but that's just how things go sometimes.

Mine wasn't personal anecdote, as I said I've read up quite a bit about it. Anecodte was just in additioin to that. And honestly, native coorespondent doesn't mean anything. Take Kotaku for example. Brian Ashcraft is the native coorespondent for Japan and he knows about as ms much as your average stupid American. Despite living there, and being married to a Japanese girl for years. Inching towards respectable is contradictory to the very reason the establishment exists.

It'd be like stating "Strip bars are inching towards more respectable". They may be cleaning up their act and being less lude, but it doesn't change the point an establishment exists. As for the age decrease. It's half true. But it isn't a significant number decrease. We're not seeing 21 year olds frequenting the places . It's not uncommon to see a woman in her 20's attending one, to sample what it's like, but these are rarely the base clientel. Prices for your average host cafe are far too expensive for your average 20 year old to pay for, seeing that they're barely in college. Spending even 50,000 yen for a night of drinking is extreme.

So as I said, it's very biasly written and skewed. It's written for a foreign audience, not the Japanese audience. Things have to be made more appealing sounding, without totally trashing on JP culture.
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soakrates`

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #292 on: June 19, 2008, 03:27:29 PM »

Host clubs may be a little ethically unsound, but the same could be said of casinos, strip clubs, or any other establishment that openly exploits the naivete and/or delusions of its clientele. Personally, I get what Pyron is saying about the dubiousness and general sleaziness of it all, but at the same time Kaura is also right that these types of businesses do trend toward at least some semblance of legitimacy.

Las Vegas for instance was largely influenced by organized crime in the 1940s and 50s, but as the city's reputation grew, it began attracting more people, and developers with huge sums of money more or less transformed the city into the (somewhat) more family-oriented attraction it is today.

At the end of the day, I feel that if people are willing to pay for the illusion, we should just let them. Sure, the house wins big every night at the casino despite promising the contrary on so many roadside billboards; and those bombshells stuffing your hard-earned money down their thongs will playfully reject every advance you make even as they feign interest in you, but if that's how people choose to be frivolous with their money, let them reap the consequences.

For what it's worth, I would rather see these kinds of businesses legitimized so that their workers can gain the benefits that those in other more "respectable" industries have. We may not necessarily agree with what they do, but if enough people are willing to pay them for their services, and assuming they provide said services at a level of quality consistent with what they are paid, they deserve the kinds of rights and benefits that other workers are entitled to.
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PyronIkari

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #293 on: June 19, 2008, 03:45:36 PM »

Strip clubs are there to see naked women. YThat's where the gratification comes from. Gambling has a pay off.

Vegas is HARDLY family friendly. Anyone that has gone there under the age of 21 knows how boring and horrible vegas is if you're not of age. The only good thing to do is Circus Circus and New York's rides, which get boring fast.

Comparing very different things.
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soakrates`

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #294 on: June 19, 2008, 06:05:19 PM »

Strip clubs are there to see naked women. YThat's where the gratification comes from. Gambling has a pay off.

Vegas is HARDLY family friendly. Anyone that has gone there under the age of 21 knows how boring and horrible vegas is if you're not of age. The only good thing to do is Circus Circus and New York's rides, which get boring fast.

Comparing very different things.
Point taken, and I'm not trying to say they're all on equal ground, but they do all deal in some kind of illusion. With casinos it's the "big win" that is far less common than they'd have you believe; with strip clubs (in addition to all the nakedness and lapdances) it's having a chance at nabbing one of the strippers; and with host clubs it's more or less the same thing. There may be no obvious gratification from being fawned over by a good-looking guy, but for whatever reason the women are starved for it and willing to pay large sums to get it.

It's more than a little screwed-up, and I agree that Host clubs are definitely ethically questionable and exploitive enterprises. But as long as they abide by the laws, they have every right to exist as long as enough people buy what they're selling.

As for Vegas, it's still primarily a 21-and-over city (hence the "somewhat" in my last post), but family-friendly attractions like amusement parks, kid-oriented activities, etc. have become more common since the 1980s or thereabouts. Plus organized crime doesn't have anywhere near the level of influence it once had.
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Kaura117

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #295 on: June 19, 2008, 06:08:11 PM »


That's an insufficient argument. At the very least, the Times article was written by a native correspondent.  And they're less skewed than personal anecdote- which, again, is about as concrete as aerogel. Not to mention that while the first assertion that I made- that the host clubs are inching towards respectability- might be considered highly subjective, the second point- that the average age of its clienteles are dropping- isn't. The fact of the second even supports the first- you don't get increased and younger clientele without first building a more positive reputation.

There were a couple Japanese paper articles I wanted to link, but they were both apparently lost after a merger between two papers. Irritating, but that's just how things go sometimes.

Mine wasn't personal anecdote, as I said I've read up quite a bit about it. Anecodte was just in additioin to that. And honestly, native coorespondent doesn't mean anything. Take Kotaku for example. Brian Ashcraft is the native coorespondent for Japan and he knows about as ms much as your average stupid American. Despite living there, and being married to a Japanese girl for years. Inching towards respectable is contradictory to the very reason the establishment exists.

It'd be like stating "Strip bars are inching towards more respectable". They may be cleaning up their act and being less lude, but it doesn't change the point an establishment exists. As for the age decrease. It's half true. But it isn't a significant number decrease. We're not seeing 21 year olds frequenting the places . It's not uncommon to see a woman in her 20's attending one, to sample what it's like, but these are rarely the base clientel. Prices for your average host cafe are far too expensive for your average 20 year old to pay for, seeing that they're barely in college. Spending even 50,000 yen for a night of drinking is extreme.

So as I said, it's very biasly written and skewed. It's written for a foreign audience, not the Japanese audience. Things have to be made more appealing sounding, without totally trashing on JP culture.

The late and irrepressible Nobel physicist Richard Feynman successfully argued that strip clubs were, in fact, respectable establishments. It was an interesting- and somewhat impacting- court case in Ithaca a few decades back, and much of it did, in fact, hinge on the definition of community standards. If you wish to draw an analogy between the two, then I will wholeheartedly go along with it- especially given my personal bias against asserting a moralistic stance against forms of escapism, and the fact that there's plenty of precedent to argue this in my favor.

Let's also not forget that Times and the Guardian have no motivation to treat host clubs with anything other than a fair semblance of balance and objectivity- they are not funded by such establishments, and a muckraking expose of the seedier aspects of such clubs would actually serve to increase revenue better. What bias may exist would be fundamentally Eurocentric in nature- but would logically have no significant impact on the writer's favoritism or lack thereof of host clubs in general (not to mention that your seeming unwillingness to assert your own sources leaves neither of us with much to actually argue with in terms of source authority and relevance).

But, finally, I hold that my original point has already been sufficiently proven true anyhow- namely, that, no, not all host clubs are disreputable and gateways to male prostitution. Given the lack of a universal evil in this field- frankly, you'd be a fool to assert an absolutist position on anything, much less this- and given the trend towards younger clientele (younger is younger- and there's a built-in threshold anyhow, given that the market is geared towards full-time professionals), a reactionary "ban all host clubs" attitude is counterproductive at best. We don't ban strip bars- we regulate them (and occasionally have the police break down the front door and slam the establishment shut when they cross the line- happened in SJ a couple months back, I believe). We shouldn't ban host clubs- we should keep their enterprises above-level and in the light.

The ethical questions of host clubs be damned, frankly. Keeping them honest is all that needs to be done- anything else is oppressive busybodying. If a bunch of adult, professional women want to roleplay having a boyfriend with a couple of working-class men over a few glasses of chilled sake, that's their discretion and their problem. Imposing your own moral standards upon them is the height of hypocrisy. If, on the other hand, you can prove to me the socioeconomic harm of such establishments, I might give your position a bit more serious consideration.   

(Also, I had a lot of perfectly legitimate fun in Vegas, actually, last summer. I was, I note, 19 at the time, with a full two years left to go before all of Vegas's various amusements were open to me. My entertainment was due to a good, solid mix of intimate company and a hostess with the foresight to plan ahead. There are actually plenty of family-friendly events in Las Vegas, if you actually bother to look around and book ahead.

That said, I did end up sharing an arguably illicit beer with an Irish-American veteran of Iraq, relatively fresh out of duty. Domestic Guinness isn't the worst swill I've ever had, but it's hardly amongst my favorite intoxicants. ...hefeweizen, on the other hand...)
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soakrates`

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #296 on: June 19, 2008, 06:29:40 PM »

But, finally, I hold that my original point has already been sufficiently proven true anyhow- namely, that, no, not all host clubs are disreputable and gateways to male prostitution.

For that matter, what is inherently wrong with prostitution?

Quote
Imposing your own moral standards upon them is the height of hypocrisy. If, on the other hand, you can prove to me the socioeconomic harm of such establishments, I might give your position a bit more serious consideration.

Far be it for me to put words in his mouth, but I don't think Pyron was saying that host clubs should actually be shut down as a result of them being morally reprehensible. Rather, I think he was just pointing out his own personal objections to what goes on in them. I can't say I disagree with him there.

Also, dude, your posts are quite often much ado about not a whole lot. And I thought I was wordy.
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Kaura117

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #297 on: June 19, 2008, 07:43:24 PM »

But, finally, I hold that my original point has already been sufficiently proven true anyhow- namely, that, no, not all host clubs are disreputable and gateways to male prostitution.

For that matter, what is inherently wrong with prostitution?

Quote
Imposing your own moral standards upon them is the height of hypocrisy. If, on the other hand, you can prove to me the socioeconomic harm of such establishments, I might give your position a bit more serious consideration.

Far be it for me to put words in his mouth, but I don't think Pyron was saying that host clubs should actually be shut down as a result of them being morally reprehensible. Rather, I think he was just pointing out his own personal objections to what goes on in them. I can't say I disagree with him there.

Also, dude, your posts are quite often much ado about not a whole lot. And I thought I was wordy.

A: Nothing. It used to be a respectable religious institution at one point.

B: I prefer the term... eloquent. >_>
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Mister_E

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #298 on: June 19, 2008, 09:41:28 PM »

What also grinds my gears is the E.F.S.F.
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JohnnyAR

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Re: What grinds your gears?
« Reply #299 on: June 20, 2008, 11:10:33 AM »

I hate it when I have to cook my snack a longer when it's still cold in the center.
Whats even worse is when you bite into it to find out it's cold in the middle. At least if you feel it cold you won't be as disapointed.

God I hate it when that happens! Especially when I cook corn dogs when in the microwave  >:(
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