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Every time I get into a discussion about anime, it's almost guaranteed that someone will chime in with "ENGLISH DUBS SUCK LOL". Now, my question to you is, do you think that japanese dubs with english subs are always superior, or do you think that in some cases english dubs are fine (or, like in the case of Berserk, even better than the Japanese dubs)?

I have yet to see a dubbed anime series where the voice acting isn't painfully amateurish and forced in comparison to the Japanese versions. A few movies (most notably the Disney-done ones with big name actors) are acceptable.

Same goes for videogames. If the voice acting is in Japanese, I'll usually listen to it. (Occasionally there are characters who are annoying in Japanese, too.) If it's in English, I'd rather skip it as often as possible except when I want to laugh at it.

The Naruto dub makes me cringe and writhe in agony.

Quote from: mDuo13 on November 02, 2007, 06:03:43 PM
The Naruto dub makes me cringe and writhe in agony.

lol

How appropriate that we just had this conversation over dinner a few nights ago. It was fun, because it was Japanese opinions being shared around this time, instead of the usual American idiocy that I hear from most people.

Dubs (as well as the originals) are as good as the directors and the va's in it. Frankly, the US has crappy VA's for most of its works(and the lesser known VA's are actually a lot better based on my experience in studios recording for different games).

If you listen to other foreign dubs(particularly French and Spanish dubs) they are very good quality and capture a very good feel for the character. There are some good US dubs as well. It's just not common because they fail at capturing character essence.

Miyazaki has commented multiple times that he loves the French dub of Porco Rosso over the original Japanese, and if you've ever seen it, you'd know how amazingly well the VAs captured the characters. Ed in Cowboy Bebop for the English dub did way better than the Japanese, and for the most part all of the voices were done tollerably(though the rest of the cast wasn't nearly as good as the JP).

The biggest issue with American dubs, are that the VA's usually know jack nothing about the characters, history, and JP culture in general(this is factual... lol they're like Piro when he writes Megatokyo, maybe that's why the idiot makes so many writing mistakes), so they don't know how to capture the small parts that make the character... that character, along with the Japanese nuances that go into them.

The same goes vice versa though. I watched a lot of US shows/movies dubbed into Japanese while I've been in Japan(though I do it occasionally at home anyways, just to see...) and it's terrible. Dora the Explorer in Japanese... HORRIBLE, but hillarious. Most Disney Movies as well. It's hard for Japanese people to completely grasp character designs that are so clearly American.

Dubs in general don't work well because of cultural barriers, and nuances that aren't understood. Doesn't mean they're all bad though.

In the end, I usually prefer to watch how the original was intended to be watched, but rarely there are gems when dubs are better than the original intent(such as a few Miyzaki movies in French and Golden Boy in English).

Pretty much what he said.

It's an extension of the problem of translating anything. None are actually correct, anyway --but in general, a thoughtful, nuanced interpretation is going to be better than something cranked out ASAP to get to market. The latter is generally all you'll see in an import market.

I had an east Asian culture professor describe the process of translating literature. It might take him weeks to translate a paragraph. Yeah, it was literature, but keep that in mind when you watch a dub--or a 0-day fansub.

PyronIkari nails it head on. It's hard to carry over cultural nuances to a different language. Its not just American VA's that are guilty of this. I remember when I was in Japan I saw the Simpsons dubbed...It was terrible. Japanese Homer is completely different from his American counterpart.

This is the lazy man's (woman's) answer.  I usually watch the dubbed because I love the animation.  I find that I miss some of the details when I'm trying to read and watch at the same time.  It's sad that I don't get the full impact of the Japanese voice actors, I truly love the sound of the Japanese language. 

Maybe if I got different glasses I could do the subtitles and still see the rest of the screen..but for now I enjoy the English dub as best as I can.  Better yet I should get off my butt and learn Japanese, then I wouldn't need the subtitles at all!

In my opinionnn, I like watching most anime in the original japanese version, but few exceptions like the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya ( I hope I spelled that all right XD ) I like better in english..however for the most part to me, japanese is the way to go 8)

Quote from: Altomare on November 02, 2007, 06:12:59 PM

Quote from: mDuo13 on November 02, 2007, 06:03:43 PM
The Naruto dub makes me cringe and writhe in agony.

xD
The Naruto dub is supposed to make you cringe. Especially Naruto. By nature, Naruto is an annoying, obnoxious, and loud person. His English voice actor pulls that off in a professional and absolutely fantastic way. At least that's what the Japanese producers [ who approved the English cast ] said.

Just wanted to get that out there.
To each their own of course.

Yeah, I dunno, there's "annoying little kid" which is what Naruto is supposed to be, and then there's "impossibly annoying fake voice" which is what I think the American dub ended up with. Basically, they took the right idea too far.

Quote from: mDuo13 on November 02, 2007, 06:03:43 PM
I have yet to see a dubbed anime series where the voice acting isn't painfully amateurish and forced in comparison to the Japanese versions. A few movies (most notably the Disney-done ones with big name actors) are acceptable.

Same goes for videogames. If the voice acting is in Japanese, I'll usually listen to it. (Occasionally there are characters who are annoying in Japanese, too.) If it's in English, I'd rather skip it as often as possible except when I want to laugh at it.

The Naruto dub makes me cringe and writhe in agony.

I generaly don't like dubs either (not limited to anime, or other stuff from Japan).  When it comes to things I've seen that were dubbed, and I thought a good job was done I could count them on one hand,and still have a few fingers left to count with.  ;D  But there are some subs that are horrid too.

I'm glad the subject of dubbed games was brought up too. 

I've always preferred subs over dubs, for obvious reasons, but I can recall some dubbed anime with some good American voice acting.

I'd say, most people would agree that Hellsing was well dubbed. Trinity Blood and Fullmetal Alchemist was done pretty well, too. Vampire Hunter D was also good in English, but the original was in English... I've noticed that dubs fair well with anime in Western settings if their budgets allow them to. They might have a few cultural jokes here and there, but they're Western enough for it not to be a problem most of the time, because they can replace them with things that fit and make sense in this country. The only thing is that you don't get to hear the parts when characters speak Engrish in their speech, since they're already speaking English.

I can't think of any Japanese-setting dubs that do very well... Cultural jokes, language puns, etc don't make as much sense since they can't be directly translated to do so. There are also things that make you cry out in agony if you've heard the original, or know what something should be referred to, but American audiences that aren't familiar with anime or Japanese culture, and watch only as regular cartoons wouldn't mind the difference... like in Pok'emon, they call onigiri, "donuts" and they took out Kenshin's "Oro" and replacing them with more normal reactions. The only ones that I can think of that did okay in their dubbed versions, while still having a Japanese setting is... maybe Blood+... and the Bleach dub is actually not that bad, but some people can disagree and defend their fandom for the Japanese original.

But yeah, it's not as if the voice actors aren't trying. Most of them are probably stoked to actually voice in anime, rather than just seeing it as just work. They just suck, most of the time.

I for one couldn't handle FMA's dub. Al's voice doesn't have that metallic ring that it does in Japanese, and it pains me. Some of the other characters weren't so bad - Scar for example.

I think the issue is that in Japan, these people have actual training and the voice recording is a big deal, whereas in America it's a niche market so they can get away without putting in a lot of effort.

Quote from: Altomare on November 02, 2007, 05:02:59 PM

However, there are of course dubs that I cannot stand, those being the dubs of: Yami no Matsuei, Cardcaptor Sakura, Tokyo Mew Mew, Tsubasa Chronicle [ it was a shitty anime in the first place ], and a few others I can't think of. So yeah, for me it just depends.

Yami no Matsuei has the most hilariously bad dub ever. My friends and I were going through that series and at the start of a new disc we forgot to change the settings and it started playing in English. I laughed SO hard, especially at the Gushoshin.  ;D

I watch my anime in Japanese simply because that's the language that it was recorded in. I find that there's usually something lost in the translation no matter how good the dub is. I watch foreign films in their original language, and anime is no different. There are some good dubs out there, so it's not that I think they're all terrible (the Hellsing dubs are quite good and I enjoy the English accents). The only time I ever watch dubs are if I'm watching with a lot of people and it becomes difficult to read the subtitles or if there's a person in the group that can't read fast enough to keep up.

In majority, I love subs, but there are some dubs, such as GTO, Furi Kuri and Cromartie High School that are pretty excellent IMO, that it sounds a little better than the japanese voices. As for shows like Naruto, Bleach, Death Note and a majority of anime that have aired on Adult Swim they range from pretty good or decent at least.

However, when it comes to english dubs, they are a definite no-no on live action foreign films. Of course if you've seen martial art films from the 1960's-70's and/or the movie 'Kung Pow: Enter the Fist' then you'll find out what I mean. But also, listen to the english track to most recent films such as 'House of Flying Daggers', 'Ong Bak: The Thai Warrior' and 'Tom Yum Goong/The Protector' and you'll feel like wanting Tony Jaa to decapitate you with a roundhouse kick to the head.

Quote from: Moogleborg on November 10, 2007, 02:04:11 AM
...listen to the english track to most recent films such as 'House of Flying Daggers', 'Ong Bak: The Thai Warrior' and 'Tom Yum Goong/The Protector' and you'll feel like wanting Chuck Norris to decapitate you with a roundhouse kick to the head.

Fix'd for accuracy.

I actually find that Ranma 1/2 enjoyed a fair dub in some moments and a poor one in others. The english voice of Tatewaki Kuno (Ted Cole if I'm not mistaken?) was EXCELLENTLY chosen, and Ted Cole executes Kuno's character with the perfect characteristics and emotion we'd all expect from Kuno. Also, Michael Donovan was an excellent and honest Ryoga, and many other characters were well-chosen.
On the OTHER hand, Gosunkugi and some instances of Tsubasa, along with some other characters, were just plain miserable. In my opinion, I could've done a better job than Gosunkugi-- honestly. If I were presented the opportunity to replace his voice in a studio, I would back that claim up.

i think the Japanese voice actors should learn how to speak english with correct pronounciation and have them do it!!
that would be totally awsome!!

Seriously, 2 days ago, i saw BLEACH in adultswim, (it was ishida and one of the captain's fight episode) and ishida's voice was....weird.
its because i know the japanese one and i kinda like his voice. And because i'm used to it.

Naruto = Horrible dub
Bebop = Good dub
Yu Yu Hakusho = Good dub
Bleach = Decent dub (except for Renji)
Death Note = Good (so far)

There are alot more but those are at the top of my head.

The Hellsing dub is pretty good. I still prefer the Japanese, but I can laugh pretty hard at Anderson's accent. Seras' voice is weak though. And Alucard is so Crispin it hurts.

I prefer subs because I'm trying to learn Japanese, and I think it helps.  Some dubs aren't so bad, but it's hard to justify the time I spend watching them because then it's just sheer entertainment and I can't fool myself into counting anime as possibly "educational".  ;)

One of my big complaints about this debate or "argument" is the group of "fans" who bash dubs endlessly, but when English dub VAs show up at conventions, they swoon all over them like stars....
(Not saying all those who don't like dubs do this, but....)

I agree that some series are well done, some are very well done.
For me, Fruits Basket was another English dub that sounded really good, with a few painful to the ear exceptions, but then they did still fit the character.

I like to watch both versions. There are only a couple times I couldn't get through more than 10 minutes of dubs, often those are older series.

I'll agree English VAs probably should learn more about the character they are doing the voice for. I think some of them do study up, I wish they all would.
But to say it's their fault if they don't come across like the character did in the original Japanese isn't always fair to blame on the VA. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't....

Start with who chose that VA for that part?
The VAs have to try out for the roles, and someone says "yes, this person for this role."
What if the VA was miscast?
What if some of us are so used to the episodes in Japanese that no matter who they put into that role, the English will always sound weird now?
(I've noticed sometimes, the more I do listen to the English track if I was far along a series in the Japanese version, if it's truly not bad voice acting work--I come to appreciate them more with time. And then finally get to a point where I'm okay with two different voices for the same character.)

Follow up with did anyone explain the character well enough or work with them to get the correct pronunciations for Japanese names or terms being used in the English dub?
Did someone give the VA an inaccurate description of the character in the beginning?
Was the VA given access to listen to the Japanese versions of the character? Or were they supposed to go off and come up with their own version? Would a VA deliberately want to sound more like the Japanese VA or as an actor of voices, put their own mark on the voice for the English version?

Go with the directors or whoever is in that studio with that VA when they are recording.
Someone said "okay" at some point on what they heard the VA record. Then that was edited to make the final version.

Consider how hard the VAs are trying to match the mouth movements.
That has got to be the hardest part of dubbing.
And if you don't like the translation itself, the VA probably wasn't the one who wrote the script. Let alone, think about how hard it is to translate things into another language to carry over jokes and nuances--and then fit it to the timing for mouth movements that weren't designed for English to begin with?

I've met a few VAs, fortunately very nice ones. And a lot of them are trying very hard to entertain us and do their best. And producing an English dub version is a work of a whole team, the VAs just have to stand out in front and take all the hits.

Quote from: kimu on December 08, 2007, 08:41:13 AM
A bunch of stuffs

Not everything you say is true. There's a lot of factors that people assume in concern with VA. I've done work with VA's recordings for games and the such.

Things like lip synching don't exist. Time restraings do, but not lip synching.

In general this is how it works. VA in a sound booth, with the lines on a screen. A time restraint is put up, and narration is given. "Speak the role like this, this is the context, this is the kind of character the person is, now read this line".

Now the major, the overall time restraint. Let's say there are 250 lines spanning anywhere between 3 seconds, to 2 minutes of monologue. This has to be done in 1 day by 5pm, with a lunch break inbetween and a few voice breaks where the VA needs to take 10-15 min, or the sound recorder, director has to take a few mins to handle something. Glitches, or technical difficulties.

On average you're only going to get 3-4 takes AT BEST per line.

Now, the VA can be the right VA for the job, but that doesn't mean they will be able to perform exactly how the director wanted them to in that time span.

So it's not always because the VA can't do the job, nor is it solely the VA's fault, but in general, the VA isn't prepared or culturally aware of the characters they are voicing. Sometimes they do great jobs, sometimes they don't. Would someone else do better? Maybe, maybe not. Let's take the last VA'ing job I did. We had to get 8 major characters, each having upwards to 400 lines each, 20 minor characters, lines ranging from 5-20 or so lines. All this in 10 work days not including sound editing and choosing which takes, etc. etc. etc. You can't go over these days, so if a line gets missed, a line gets recorded badly, you're kinda screwed over all completely, or you're shelling out another few hundreds to thousands of dollars to rebook a recording studio, and bring in the VA. You have the man hours to pay for, the director to come in, the sound engineers, etc. etc. etc.

Your average US VA, knows jack nothing about the characters they are casted for, and know less about the overall culture that reflects within the culture, the surroundings, etc. It's hard to direct someone all of this within the time alotted.

VA'ing is a hard job, extremely hard job that takes not only talent in voice manipulation, but knowledge in people, culture, human interaction etc.

I can tell someone that "you just got into a fight with your fellow student in a martial arts dojo, in the meiji era of Japan. Your character has a short temper, but is in general a very nice person. You just blow up easilly, so you're extremely upset, but you know they're sort of right. Now say this line"...

and do you think they'd be able to land the line in 4-5 takes taking no longer than 8 minutes to move on to the next line?

Do you think... you could do it, even if you had good control over your voice, and the capability to manipulate it how you'd want to? I could tell you right now, your first attempt would probably suck horribly... and it'd make me cringe. Your next would to. Even though a lot of you watch anime, and think you have good understandings of the culture, characters etc. you wouldn't be able to capture the character how the director would want to even if you had more time. I don't blame the VA's for their voice acting skills, because I've heard them do other voices, US voices, for US games, movies, cartoons... and they were done amazingly well. But if you give them a culture, and a situation they do not have a full grasp of understanding, even if the voice fits perfectly... it's not easy to do.

Voice Acting is a hard job, and I WISH that those that do dubs, would research the parts, the culture, etc. more to do a better job. But that's thei perogative. I'm not a full time director, nor are these my projects. I work with what I have, and I try to get the best quality I can when I'm doing this job. I can throw out suggestions, but it's up to them to do it.

Quote from: kimu on December 08, 2007, 08:41:13 AMOne of my big complaints about this debate or "argument" is the group of "fans" who bash dubs endlessly, but when English dub VAs show up at conventions, they swoon all over them like stars....

Personally, I think that's better than them continuing to bash the dub actors when they show up at conventions.  I think it's horribly rude when I can overhear people complaining loudly at the convention about any of the guests.  No matter what, guests are guests, and they should be treated with respect.  People who have a problem with the guests should be talking to Fanime directly, not complaining in public where the guests might hear.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 08, 2007, 09:30:50 AM

Quote from: kimu on December 08, 2007, 08:41:13 AM
A bunch of stuffs

more stuffs

Actually, I won't claim to be someone with total insider knowledge, I went with what some friends have told me that are friends with some VAs and told me, and things seen on behind the scenes for animated movies...but you made additional points I agree with.
It's hard work.
And as Nyxyin said, I agree we should treat them with respect, even if we don't love someone's work. For me there's no point to be rude to someone if they haven't done anything to me personally to deserve that.

At least we have a choice thanks to the companies releasing the dvds with both Japanese and English tracks.
;D

Never ever nearly as good as the original...

Quote from: AnimeEmperor on December 14, 2007, 11:16:59 PM
Never ever nearly as good as the original...

Golden Boy
Ed in Cowboy Bebop
Porco Rosso in French

some examples of it being better than the original.

Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

Quote from: bunnycorpse on December 14, 2007, 11:43:26 PM
Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

They stopped using "Believe It!" after episode forty. In the Japanese version, Naruto says "Dattebayo" after almost every single sentance. Clearly, Dattebayo is far more annoying that a few Believe It's.
=|

Quote from: Altomare on December 15, 2007, 09:20:41 AM

Quote from: bunnycorpse on December 14, 2007, 11:43:26 PM
Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

They stopped using "Believe It!" after episode forty. In the Japanese version, Naruto says "Dattebayo" after almost every single sentance. Clearly, Dattebayo is far more annoying that a few Believe It's.
=|

oh, i'm still fairly early the series, still stuck in the "believe it" section apparently.

Quote from: Altomare on December 15, 2007, 09:20:41 AM

Quote from: bunnycorpse on December 14, 2007, 11:43:26 PM
Some are fairly well done, but others are done in a rush to get the anime out on the american market. Naruto for example, much better in japanese; too many "BELIEVE ITS" in the english.

They stopped using "Believe It!" after episode forty. In the Japanese version, Naruto says "Dattebayo" after almost every single sentance. Clearly, Dattebayo is far more annoying that a few Believe It's.
=|

I've friends admitting that, though they would notice "dattebayo", they wouldn't find it annoying because it'd blend in with Japanese speech. As for people who understand the language enough to process their sentences, it's a lot more noticeable, and seemingly impossible not to find it annoying.

BELIEVE IT!