FanimeCon 2024 Forums

I just got an email from the artist alley staff saying that I can sell my original items, but unfortunately, no fanart items.  :'( I'm a craft/plush seller so of course I understand why my work comes into question, but I feel like I'm being banned from completely selling fanart. Under the artist alley agreement, there is a small section that allows for fanart:

"b.Fan art clearly showing the artist's work being produced and not intended to replicate the original style or the official likeness of a work held by the license holder"

To me, this answer seems pretty vague. For example, I sell plushies of characters. I like to make the plushies look as much like the characters as possible so could my eye for detail mean that my plushies look so much like the real characters that they are not to be sold? However, the plushies are made from my own pattern and my own choice of fabrics. In my eyes, making plushies of characters "is" my own original style of fanart. I am not copying existing licensed plushies in any way, shape, or form. I am also making plushies of some characters that don't even have any plush versions even being sold.

I know that there are a few artists like me who have gotten accepted without evening knowing about this policy and I worry how the staff will view their work once it arrives. I already sent a reply to the staff about these questions so now I am patiently waiting for an answer. Have any of you artists out there also received this email? I've been selling my plushies at Fanime for a few years now and I really hope I can still bring some fanart related ones again this year.

A friend of mine who got accepted also received a similar email asking her not to sell the plushie she was making of a character. Im also wondering what the deal is with this as I was planning on selling Plushies as an addition to all my other items, and had already gotten started making them and purchasing materials....  

Quote from: nainu on February 25, 2012, 12:56:12 AM
A friend of mine who got accepted also received a similar email asking her not to sell the plushie she was making of a character. Im also wondering what the deal is with this as I was planning on selling Plushies and had already gotten started making them and purchasing materials.... 

There seems to be a little inconsistency in the review process. A friend of mine, who is selling the exact same character plushies as me, got accepted instantly with no one telling her that she could not sell those plushies. But I was told I couldn't? I really hope we can sell fanart plushies. I know there are several of us out there who want to get started making stock. But I can't until I know what is ok to sell.  ???

Quote from: LiL Moon on February 25, 2012, 01:01:47 AM

Quote from: nainu on February 25, 2012, 12:56:12 AM
A friend of mine who got accepted also received a similar email asking her not to sell the plushie she was making of a character. Im also wondering what the deal is with this as I was planning on selling Plushies and had already gotten started making them and purchasing materials.... 

There seems to be a little inconsistency in the review process. A friend of mine, who is selling the exact same character plushies as me, got accepted instantly with no one telling her that she could not sell those plushies. But I was told I couldn't? I really hope we can sell fanart plushies. I know there are several of us out there who want to get started making stock. But I can't until I know what is ok to sell.  ???

Really??  Thats really odd... I hope the issue gets cleared up soon since I had read through the rules it didnt specify anything about fanart plushies being not okay to sell...  I took that in mind when deciding what the make and had already started >_>

Quote from: nainu on February 25, 2012, 01:08:12 AM
Really??  Thats really odd... I hope the issue gets cleared up soon since I had read through the rules it didnt specify anything about fanart plushies being not okay to sell...  I took that in mind when deciding what the make and had already started >_>

Yeah, there's no concrete rule about plushies in the agreement. Maybe they want us to make the plushies more abstract? ^^;; I really don't know.

Essentially, we are looking for original art. If your work is based off of an established character, it enters a grey zone that we need to make a judgment call on. We will attempt to be as fair as possible, but the best thing for artists to do is err on the safe side. In the end, we are looking for items that will sell for their originality and do not piggyback on the success and work of another artist, professional or not.

Quote from: ewu on February 25, 2012, 11:25:59 AM
Essentially, we are looking for original art. If your work is based off of an established character, it enters a grey zone that we need to make a judgment call on. We will attempt to be as fair as possible, but the best thing for artists to do is err on the safe side. In the end, we are looking for items that will sell for their originality and do not piggyback on the success and work of another artist, professional or not.

If it's mainly original work that is allowed in the artist alley, then maybe there should be no fanart allowed at all or maybe a limited number allowed. It's really that grey area fanart rule that allows it that's confusing me. I know it was made mainly with print artists in mind because their unique style makes it ok for them to sell prints of characters, but for craft artists, it becomes more of a challenge. I just wish some overall rule could be established because many of us of are being told mix messages. I'll be sad if I go to Fanime with all originals and I see the person sitting next to me selling plushies that I was told I couldn't bring.  :'(

Quote from: ewu on February 25, 2012, 11:25:59 AM
Essentially, we are looking for original art. If your work is based off of an established character, it enters a grey zone that we need to make a judgment call on. We will attempt to be as fair as possible, but the best thing for artists to do is err on the safe side. In the end, we are looking for items that will sell for their originality and do not piggyback on the success and work of another artist, professional or not.

??? Curious question. If the reason for your policy based on the grey area of making merchandise based on copyrighted characters, is this policy also in effect for your Dealer's Hall/Room?

Quote from: ChibiLi on February 25, 2012, 08:36:12 PM
??? Curious question. If the reason for your policy based on the grey area of making merchandise based on copyrighted characters, is this policy also in effect for your Dealer's Hall/Room?

No, all the merchandise in the dealer room is licensed, and so there is no need for such a restriction.

Quote from: ewu on February 25, 2012, 11:25:59 AM
Essentially, we are looking for original art. If your work is based off of an established character, it enters a grey zone that we need to make a judgment call on. We will attempt to be as fair as possible, but the best thing for artists to do is err on the safe side. In the end, we are looking for items that will sell for their originality and do not piggyback on the success and work of another artist, professional or not.

So, I'm not currently an Artist Alley artist, but I hope to be in future years, so I have a couple of questions/comments on the matter.

I feel that the AA artists are generally ones to present wonderful pieces and showcase a variety of drawing styles instead of simply copying the original already, so is this a sort of "quality control" tactic or a way of avoiding copyright infringement? Or simply a way to aid artists who want to promote their original stuff? Just curious. I'm interested in knowing the reasoning behind this sort of decision.

What constitutes that gray zone? That seems extremely vague and with room for potential loophole. I feel that it should be all or nothing, because as it's already been mentioned, that could be pretty unfair for some fanart to be deemed okay to sell and others not. For example, wouldn't this potentially mean Shark Robot wouldn't be able to sell most of their stuff, or would it be okay because their designs are "parodies?"

And lastly, I wonder how this will affect our artists, since they do make quite a bit of income in AA selling fanart prints. While I'm perfectly fond of the idea of seeing more original work in AA, and I agree with the intent- heck, I'm already planning some original projects to try and sell in future years- I've noticed that fanart is also where quite a few artists have gotten people interested in their work, who then usually become interested in their original work as well. Heck, CLAMP got their start as a doujin group if I recall correctly.

Personally, I feel there's going to be a lot of confusion from this as well that should be sorted out asap. ^^; I hope my post was clear and logical, since it's getting late and I'd best be off to bed soon, haha.

I've heard that many conventions (mostly on the east coast) have very strict restrictions on the amount of fanart that artists are allowed to sell. This forces the artists at these cons to have some original work for sale. The primary goal of this is to prevent copyright infringement, even though, with fanart, there is no copyright infringement going on unless someone traces something. From what I've read, it seems that any fanart, as long as it is not a tracing of anyone else's work and does not contain any official logos, is considered a parody, and is therefore OK to sell.
However, those in charge tend to make sure that each artist who draws fanart has their own original style instead of drawing exactly like Masashi Kishimoto, for example. While it's easy to show that you have your own style when you draw fanart, it becomes harder to show this when you have plushies. If someone's plushies look exacltly like the character or if they look too much like official licensed plushies (assuming there are any), it may be getting too close to copyright issues for the admins.

I just hope that fanime doesn't put quantity restrictions on fanart. While I enjoy drawing original art, I prefer selling fanart; it's cool when someone likes my interpretation of a popular character. I believe that fanart is just at creative as original art.

I wasn't personally planning on selling "fanart crafts" ...but I just can't wrap my head around HOW on God's green earth a craft is any different from 2D fanart other than the dimension of it. It's still original work by an artist who is not claiming any ownership of the character/franchise/etc.

I know Disney is one of those scary companies that'll attack anything and everything selling its copyrighted ideas, but anime's pretty lax. And I whole heartedly agree with the encouragement of making profit from original work. But this is an anime convention where people come to celebrate the art of Japanese animation in a variety of ways. AA fanart included.

If you're aiming to be "fair," I would reconsider this issue in light of what's being discussed here.

okay...
Does anyone remmeber the pocky stix plushies and the wiimote plushies?
they were really cool and sold old really fast.... but I never seen the next year that came out

Does anyone remmeber the Yaoi paddle sticks?
I guess something has happened involve with the glomp and hugging Bans

These are the only 2 i recall back in..2007?2008? i forgot which year.

Anything with hand crafted fan art wouldn't be allowed, in fact, I just saw one artist alley left because pepakura was not even allowed to sell! (that or was missing a few days later).

{really am starting to miss the gold old create something nice days v_v, thats all}


now heres something that is sorta a grey zone:::
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_87FWjfCC0iY/TSpYeo1MFFI/AAAAAAAAMTc/-fXSwaDmHb0/s400/Video+Game+Perler+Beads.jpg

Is this the next thing fanime will considered?
(its hand made and retains its original likeliness!)
{{{{{not to sound mean or anything but..should'nt this topic be moved to Serious business???}}}}}}}

I agree with Chibi monster.

I hope fanime doesn't make limitations on fanart. I love seeing artists interpretations of characters and also it is the main thing that sells at fanime. The things people come up with are really amazing.

The only fanart I think should be banned if an artist TRACED a picture. Other than that I think it is fine because every persons art is different along with the interpretation of the characters.

Quote from: Hachimitsu-ink on February 28, 2012, 01:00:46 PM{{{{{not to sound mean or anything but..should'nt this topic be moved to Serious business???}}}}}}}

This conversation topic started out FanimeCon related. If it moves beyond that, we can split the topic off into Serious Business. :)

Quote from: princeofrose on February 28, 2012, 03:54:52 PM
I agree with Chibi monster.

I hope fanime doesn't make limitations on fanart. I love seeing artists interpretations of characters and also it is the main thing that sells at fanime. The things people come up with are really amazing.

The only fanart I think should be banned if an artist TRACED a picture. Other than that I think it is fine because every persons art is different along with the interpretation of the characters.

To point out the other side, the Artist Alley is always a tough beast to regulate (which includes the rules of AA). At some point, you have to look at the rules and see if the majority of the artists are just selling their fan art of copyrighted/licensed characters. More and more conventions are starting to look and adopt a 50/50 rule where 50% of the things you're selling has to be original works, which we can go back and forth on if this rule makes sense.

With the popularity of sharing pictures online, people can trace fanart too. It's unfortunate that it happens, but the it does happen. AA is definitely one of the tougher departments to look at and ensure that the rules in place are the most fair since there are these horrible gray areas. :(

I did not want to join in this topic but I feel there is a major lack of understand of US copyright (and trademark) laws and as an artist that was also told I was not allowed to sell some of my goods I feel I have to join in. I am going to go over the basics of copyright law as best I can and to the best of my understanding. I am not a lawyer so do not take my word for this. I have done my own research on this topic but that does not mean my understand of it is absolutely correct. Please, do your own research on US laws and correct me if I am wrong. I am going to use the Legend of Zelda and Nintendo for my examples since most people are familiar with it. And I apologize, this is going to be long.

Copyright law allows the original creator of a work to make copies of their work, distribute their work (selling it, giving it away), display their work, and making derivative works. Now this "derivative works" part is where thing get a bit complex.

Nintendo owns the copyright to the Legend of Zelda, this allows them to make more games based on it. This also allows them to make movies, music, plays, poster, t-shirts, jewelery, ect., based on the Legend of Zelda because they own the rights to it. This also means they are the only ones allows to make games, movies, music, plays, posters, t-shirt, jewelry, ect based on it.  Under this if you, an random person that is not Nintendo, make a fanart piece for the Legend of Zelda you cannot display it or distribute it in any way. This means you are not allowed to display it (post it online, print it out and tape it to a public wall) or distribute it (sell it, give it away).

So yes, according to copyright law all fanart is illegal if you display or distribute it. Unless you are granted permission from the copyright owners to create, display, and distribute such a work. But there are two loopholes that allow for fanart to be displayed and sold as it is in Artist Alley, parody and fair use. Both of these are in the gray area and if you were to be sued you would have to prove that your work fell under at least one of them.

Parody is when you make fun of something. If you drew Link in a way that made fun of him or the Legend of Zelda games it could be protected by parody. If Nintendo took you to court over this it could come down to if the judge thought it was funny or not. If you drew Link and used him to make fun of something else, that was not Legend of Zelda related, this would not be protected under parody. Parody protects you making fun of the same thing, not using it to make fun of something else.

Fair use is a far more complex. Fair use has four guidelines:
(Copied from US code 107 link: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107)

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

If we take #1 verbatim fanart is still illegal when you sell it. But more and more it is being interpenetrated as if it was created solely for profit or to provide stimulation of creativity and enrichment of the community. This is because in today's society nothing is free and everyone wants to make a little money off of all of their hard work. So, for #1 fanart should pass as long as it is original fanart.

#2 does not really apply to fanart in the anime/games community since we are dealing mostly with visual media and this has more to do with other types of work. Please read up on it if you are curious.

#3 Is more about using an copyrighted work exactly in another piece. If you took a picture of Link from the cover of the game and then added him to a much larger piece of work would that be allowed? This really depends on what you made and how much of it was original. This really should not apply here because we are dealing with original works with copyrighted characters. Again, please read up on it if you are curious.

#4 This is the other big one, especially for craftsers like me. If you draw Link in your own style how does that drawing effect the market value of the all of the Nintendo made Legend of Zelda merchandise? For prints, not much, because it is your own style which Nintendo is not replicating.

Now, for craftsers, if you make a Link costume how does that effect the market value of the all of the Nintendo made Legend of Zelda merchandise? Again, not a lot because to my knowledge Nintendo does not offer a Link costume for you to purchase.

But if I make a Link plushie how does that effect the market value of the all of the Nintendo made Legend of Zelda merchandise? This one is harder to answer because Nintendo does offer Link plushies. Now your plush might be in a completely different style, for example you make him into an onigiri, you are probably okay. But if you made a plushie similar to the ones Nintendo offers this gets a bit harder to say you have little to no effect on the market value because you are directly competing with them. In general that is what you want to avoid.
Also, parody is still protected here, if I make a Link plushie that would directly compete with the Nintendo made ones but it was making fun of Link or the Legend of Zelda games I would still be fine even though it could/would effect the market value of the other Zelda merchandise.

@Hachimitsu-ink About those Perler bead creations, if the creator of those is distributing them they are no better then someone who traces art work and they are breaking copyright law. They are creating exact replicas of copyrighted images that belong to Nintendo and Capcom. This is a clear violation of copyright law because there is no originality involved in this, there is no style change, no parody, nothing. If they had taken Link from Wind Waker and turned him into a 16-bit pixel art and turned that into a Perler bead creation this would have been fine to sell. This is because they are creating something that Nintendo did not. Also, I know at least east coast conventions banned the Yaoi/Yuri paddles because of con goers being harassed by other over zealous con goers. People would get a smack in the bottom and such, this caused some major problems and the best solution was to ban the paddles. This would not have happened if people would not have hit other people, especially strangers. I know other conventions have had to start looking at banning the high-fiving across opposite direction escalators due to similar problems.

Also, as an east coaster that moved west and I am now attending west coast conventions I can tell you these cons are much more open then the large east coast conventions. Otakon full-out banned all fanart one year, it did not go over well and was removed but harsh restrictions were put in place instead. They have since banned almost all crafts that are not original and you cannot put your fanart on buttons at all. Artist at Otakon are also only allowed 10 prints of each fanart piece and at least half of their artwork must be original. They also require artist mark which pieces are fanart and which are original so that they can check that you are following the rules. All this extra policing has led to a need for more staff members and in turn higher table prices. (I found Fanime's $75 fee to be cheap.) So please, do not blame Fanime staff, they are doing their best and trying to protect us, the artists, as well as themselves.

So, general rules to follow with fanart because I know: tl;dr
1. Use your own style or apply another style (Wind Waker styled Naruto characters)
2. Create something new (do not redraw/recreate official works)
3. Do not directly compete with any official merchandise even if you are creating/recreating it yourself

And everyone please, please, go read up on US copyright law yourself if you are selling in any AA, it is extremely important to know what your rights are and what you can and cannot do.

I found a great article on Etsy about fanart and fair use: http://www.etsy.com/blog/en/2010/fan-art-and-fair-use-one-truth-and-five-myths/

For those who don't feel like reading the whole thing, it says that fanart that is sold may be protected by the fair use law, but art is judged on a case-by-case basis, and it acknowledges that it is one big legal mess.

We could literally debate and hypothesize for pages, and the issue wouldn't get much clearer. (After all, we're dealing with art, which is inherently subjective).

On another note, it seems silly to me that cons try to limit fanart when, realistically, legal issues are very unlikely to ensue. After all, most fans come to conventions for fanart, not original art. Therefore, it seems strange to force the artists to sell things that the attendees are most likely not interested in. Additionally, most manga artists appreciate and encourage the creation of fanart such as doujinshi back in Japan, so I don't see why things should be any different in America. Finally, fanart prints (it is a slightly different story with crafts) do not really interfere with the official prints. This is because most official prints use the exact same as the anime, while artists have a different style, and official prints are usually either wall scrolls or posters, while fanart is usually 11x17 or smaller.
And the button rule at Otakon seems even more ridiculous. What was the reasoning behind that one? (Actually, what is the reasoning behind all of Otakon's fanart rules?)

Edit: Out of curiosity, I read Otakon's artist alley rules for this year, and it seems that buttons are allowed as long as you drew the image on them yourself.

Wow, I can't believe how this topic just exploded.  :o Great comments everyone. @cutekick I think you do bring up some valid points. Thank you. I always appreciate learning more about copyright policies.

I do agree with everyone. I think fanart is really the main reason that people come to the artist alley so I don't think it should be taken away fully. If I only wanted to sell originals, I wouldn't be trying so hard to come to an anime con.  :P I don't mind the 50/50 rule. I thought it was interesting how Otakon has it set, but I think that it's fair. At least fanart is not totally banned there.

I really try to do good research before I decide what to make. I often like making plushies that companies haven't made yet or if they have, I try to make mine as different as possible. In the end, I just want to make fans happy.  :D

The artist alley is hard to regulate. But I wouldn't be so bummed if the art wasn't so subjective. Some crafts are approved, some are not, even if they are almost identical. People can say that they are different in certain ways. But how can you really compare? Art really is too subjective.

I haven't heard anything from the staff in a few days and I'm starting to get antsy. I'll go with whatever rules are set, but I would just like to hear something from them. I figured they are super busy so I'm trying not to panic, but it's getting closer to the artist alley cut off date. Oh why did my registration have to be so close?  :-X

@Hachimitsu-ink Why were pocky stick plushies banned? Those sound like such a cute idea.

I have to say, I would strongly object to a 50/50 rule. It seems a bit unreasonable to regulate what type of art is sold as long as the art is creative. Fanart and original art both take the same amount of drawing skill and creativity in order to be appealing, and I think the choice of what to sell should be up to the artist as long as their isn't any blatant copyright violation, such as tracing, going on. Fanart will be a grey area regardless of how much the artists sell, and, as cutekick pointed out, would cause an increase in table price.

Also, fans really don't go to anime cons to buy original art; they want art of characters they know and love. In my case, I look for a new interpretation of a character when I buy fanart. For example, when I look for a print of Hatsune Miku, I don't just want a drawing of her standing against a white background with a generic happy expression on her face. That would be boring. Instead, I look for a picture of her singing, playing an instrument, or otherwise interacting with the viewer (me) or her environment. Art likes that takes creativity to produce, so I think that the customers at artist alley do a fairly good job of ensuring that the artists are creative; unoriginal fanart won't sell very well, so why would I bring any? I would make my fanart as unique and creative as possible so that people will actually want to buy it instead of walking by and saying, "Oh look... another Sasuke".

As I stated earlier, original art won't sell as well even if it is just as awesome and creative as fanart. This is because the attendees at conventions are looking to buy art of their favorite characters. Therefore, forcing artists to have an equal volume of fanart and original art makes a dent in my profits.

Hypothetical situation time! If I had 20 fanart prints and 20 original art prints, and each print cost 70 cents to produce (That's about how much one 8x10 on glossy paper costs at my local Office Max), I have spent 28 dollars to make my prints. If I sell my prints at $8 each, and I sell out of my fanart prints, I make 132 dollars. However, I know that at most, people are going to buy 3 of my original prints, so the maximum amount of profit I can expect is $156. Now, assume there is no 50/50 rule, and I can just have 40 fanart prints. I'm still spending $28 to make them. However, I can expect to sell out of the fanart prints. Therefore, I make a profit of $292. Now, I don't do this for a living, and a $136 difference isn't the end of the world, but I like to approach artist alley as a business and try my best to maximize profits; I find that aspect rather fun, actually. Therefore, the 50/50 rule would dramatically change my artist alley experience, and I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be for the better.

I wouldn't object to a less demanding rule. For example, a rule that each artist would have to sell at least 3 different original works wouldn't bother me very much. it's just that 50/50 gets to be quite a hassle when I want to sell a lot of fanart butons.

I personally wouldn't object too much to the 50/50 rule, because it's a bit more understandable and potentially not too overbearingly strict. Banning fanart completely would be rather harsh.

@chibimonster- One thing to note though is whether or not the 50/50 rule means an exact amount of prints; for example, I'm currently preparing for Bronycon's Artist Alley this summer and am working on pony decals. Some ponies might sell more than others (i.e. Fluttershy as opposed to Big Mac) so I would print more Fluttershy decals than Big Mac decals. I assume that fanart and original art could work out the same way, since you would want to minimize your loss caused by leftover merch by printing in reasonable quantities, so long as the options available for purchase were approximately 50/50.

@chibimonster: Oh yeah. I agree I wouldn't want a 50/50 rule if possible. I just mean, if there had to be a rule for fanart, I would want it to be 50/50 as opposed to completely banning it. I think artist originals seem to sell differently between each artist. Last year I think 90% of my stuff was original, simply because I didn't have time to make fanart, and surprisingly, I did pretty well. I think I would have done better if I had more fanart items, but my originals do pretty well. I've just been getting more into fanart lately. And yes, it is fun to act like a mini business.  :D  I enjoy that part as well.

It really depends on what company owns the franchise you're doing fanart of. I had some Plants vs. Zombies earrings I made taken down from Etsy, because EA (Who apparently now owns Popcap) saw them and got mad. On the other hand, a guy made a replica of a Portal gun and auctioned it off, and Valve was not only cool with it, but invited him to dinner, commissioned more guns, and gave him the schematics to the Gravity Gun from Half Life so he could make one of those too. Some companies like EA and Disney lose their shit over little stuff like that, but others, like Valve and 2K Games really enjoy it. Honestly, they make so much money, someone buying a piece of fanart from TF2 or something isn't really going to make much of a dent. Unless you're claiming you invented GLaDOS and are selling their concept artwork as your own, they shouldn't really care.

On the other hand, I kind of doubt any of them pay attention to convention Artist Alleys anyway, unless it's a gigantic one like PAX or something.

Also I wouldn't mind a 50/50 rule too much. It sort of makes sense. And there's nothing wrong with promoting original artwork. I would definitely have to figure out some other stuff to bring, but I wouldn't mind too much.

Needless to say, this issue is quite complicated. We are working on a reply but with the many issues involved and the factors we are balancing, that may take a bit of time.

Honestly, I like the way Fanime's rules are now. No need to change them.

When courts look at copyright infringement and fair use, they look at it on a case-by-case basis. They subjectively evaluate each picture, which is exactly what Fanime's gallery approval system does. I am 100% supporting of the artist who does nothing but creative fanart and believe he or she belongs just as much in Artist Alley as the artist who does 50/50.

Per usual, if forced to choose I would prefer some fanart to be allowed as opposed to banning it altogether, but in general I don't like the idea of enforcing a certain percentage of original/fan art. There's no point.  It just causes an unnecessary burden on artists and can even ruin the experience enough for some people not to come back to AA. The main question is selling the fanart itself, NOT what percentage of your pictures are fanart.

@ chibimonster You are right, looks like Otakon isn't banning fanart buttons. I think that added that last line "Fan created drawings do not violate this rule." on their definition after I read it (I did read it the day it was released) but I could have just read it wrong. Thanks for pointing that out. That is also a really good article on Etsy! Thanks for the link. Con goers really do prefer to buy fanart. Back when I did prints my fanart sold so much better then my originals. I would sell a handful of originals but tons of the fanart. I greatly prefer to make original art. As I concentrated more on that I started making less and less at cons because my fanart became more and more dated. I have since moved to crafts because pokemon are never too old (I am not allowed to sell these at Fanime) and my original stuff is more appreciated and still sells quite well. Not to mention people love commissioning hats, plushies, ect of their own original characters.

@Laggy Yes, it really does depend on the company a lot. Generally the companies that license the anime for release in the US are more lax because they know that pissing off the fan base would not be a good plan. Disney, in part is quick to act because they have most things trademarked. I doubt that Disney really wanted to file a lawsuit against an elementary school when they painted Mickey Mouse on the wall in a classroom. But Mickey Mouse is trademarked and trademarks can be challenged in court if they are not upheld. Really, it is an ugly beast.

As a note, trademark law is why official logos are not to be used in fanworks. Logos are generally trademarked and trademark law is much stricter. While it does have its own terms of fair use fanart does not apply and parody is so subjective you do not want to depend on it.

I think that the Fanime staff looking at what artist make it a great way to protect everyone. My only concern if that one day this screening will turn into checking everything you plan to sell, which I have seen happen at other cons. Each piece will have to be approved of and besides that being a major strain on the Fanime staff it is also hard to the artist. I do not know a single artist that continually attends AAs that does not rush to get new pieces done in time for the next con. The whole thing is complicated and hard. It also really just points out the major problems with the laws.

I just wanted to say that I strongly oppose the 50/50 rule. I have never been a seller at fanime yet (this is my first year)
But all my years of visiting fanime (about 4-5) I always love going to the artist alley. The thing is-I hate to say this- when I go to the artist alley I am not looking for ORIGINAL ART
The reason I go to fanime to the artist alley is either for 1) Fanart of my favorite characters that I love whether it be from a video game/ anime/ whatever
Or
More recently
Commissions of my Original Characters.
Never have I scoured the artist alley for original stuff. I go there for fanart only of characters that I love and I am sure many many others do the same.
True I LOVE looking at art
but the things I buy are mostly fanart.
I hate to say this but limiting the fanart people can sell will hurt artists wallets a lot. I mean sure some select people sell original art and sell a lot of them but if I go to fanime I want fanart. Not original stuff.
I love looking at the things people can come up with fan based characters-and love their style and their renditions of them.

I HAVE bought original art prints but that is a select few. If I want original art of something I would just commission the person.

If there HAD to be a rule for original vs. fanart
I would suggest like at least 70% fanart and 30% original
Like-have the artist not have only fanart stuff and have at least some original stuff for sale.
I would still dislike it because I Think artists should have a complete free reign over what they sell and also since this is an ANIME CONVENTION it is the one time they can make fanart they enjoy to share their love for their fandom with other people.

And I think the gray zone would be like fanart that looks too much like the regular artists original style in the exact same pose of a picture that the original artist did. Other than that I think fanart should be okay. And if people trace over fanart of fanart (Which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard why would people waste their time doing that) I am sure someone will point out what they did and they will get banned/excluded/whatever.

I THINK THE WAY FANIME IS NOW IS TOTALLY COOL AND THEY SHOULD CHANGE NOTHING.

That is basically what I mean to say through this whole post which probably is deemed a bunch of blarghenhargen since I had to type it in 3 minutes because I am late to class. Just thought I'd put my input in. I'll come back after class and read it over later to get the rest of my point through.

Just to re-state my point regarding the proposed 50/50 rule since it seems like it's being overlooked...

The 50/50 rule would be in regards to what types of prints you have available for sale and not the number of copies of each individual print, correct? Because even if an artist was only selling fanart, the logical thing to do when having prints made would be to order the number you expect would sell based on how popular the series is, the quality of the print, etc. For example, Hetalia/Homestuck/Naruto/Vocaloid/etc. would sell more than say, Cowboy Bebop, because those are what's currently popular and essentially "fad" fandoms.

And fellow artists, consider this: the 50/50 rule could potentially (no guarantee that it will, but it's possible) encourage con-goers to look at and possibly buy original work. That being said, do you want your art to be popular among attendees because you're drawing someone else's characters (not saying that fanart can't be unique and beautiful in its own way), or do your work to be popular based on your own original ideas and concepts? I feel that Artist Alley should be a center of expression and creativity, be it through interpretations of existing concepts or establishing new ones.

Well also some artists don't care what prints sell more than others.
For example: The game Shadow Of The Colossus and Ico aren't as popular as lets say Zelda-but I will still make a print of both because I adored the games so much. To some artists it doesn't matter how many sell-they just fanart of things they enjoy.

Yeah true-however I think the artists should have a choice on what they decide to be popular for. Either it be fanart or their original artwork that is their choice. And even with the 50/50 rule that doesn't mean that your original artwork will be more popular than your fanart. I just don't want there to be a restriction/limit on what art you can and can't sell. Specially at a convention that is centered towards fandoms and not original stuff at all.
If you want to sell original stuff only or whatever you should go to a different faire/gallery/convention whatever not an anime convention. I mean thats the point. Its an anime/game convention. So seriously what are people going to want?
Anime/video game stuff.

I think it is fine now because now at least people can make a choice on what they want to do. I have seen people's tables where it was only fanart-and that is it.
Other people where it is only original-and that is it.
I think artist should have free reign of choice on what they decide to do and not force them to choose between one or the other or split it in between.
It limits creativity. What if I had a really really super duper amazing idea for fanart but because of the stupid rule I wouldn't be able to draw it because I have other stuff that I know I am going to sell that will sell better or something?
What if I like my original stuff but everyone else doesn't because of the style etc? Whatever.

I mean as a shopper in the artist alley there isn't that connection. You can't go "Hey. Its Link! I love Link! Amazing art!"
And if I saw lets say a picture of a girl standing underneath a mushroom house I'll go "Awww that is adorable!" But do I really need it? Sure I'll think its cute but it isn't the first on my list to buy. I'd much rather buy fanart/original commissions of my own characters with the money I have.
It isn't something I will up and pick up right when I see it because I don't connect to it like some fanart because I know/love the character and played the game/watched the anime.

I dunno. I may just be ranting off topic or something now. But seriously I think its fine as is. No rule. The ARTIST makes the choice what they want to do with their booth period

As long as they don't trace/copy someone elses artwork it is all good.
I just...Blegh. Yeah. >__>;

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 02:27:13 PM
Well also some artists don't care what prints sell more than others.
For example: The game Shadow Of The Colossus and Ico aren't as popular as lets say Zelda-but I will still make a print of both because I adored the games so much. To some artists it doesn't matter how many sell-they just fanart of things they enjoy.

You completely missed my point. To repeat and break it down further: I'm not saying you can't make artwork of things that are less popular or that it should be frowned upon or what have you. I said logically, you would print out more copies of the print that you expect to sell more of so that you aren't at as much of a loss when dealing with leftover prints after the con. Therefore, if you for example had say 20 prints, 10 fanart and 10 original, if you want to print more copies (so if you have 1 Zelda print perhaps you would print 100 COPIES of those to sell as opposed to 50 copies of 1 Cowboy Bebop print) of fanart prints as opposed to original work, if I am correct then that would be in line with the 50/50 rule. The 50/50 rule seems to be in terms of OPTIONS, not QUANTITY.

And I agree that the artist should have a choice, but perhaps consider this: if fanart is the only way to make money in AA, that discourages original work, yeah? Because like you said, you're so busy looking at fanart that you don't really pay attention to original work. Having a 50/50 rule, or even just a 70/30 rule in place would mean more original art in AA and attendees would perhaps stop and check out the original stuff because it has more presence. As I said in my earlier post, THAT IS NOT A GUARANTEE but it IS a possibility.

Yes, I understand that the 50/50 rule applies to the number of artworks, not the number of copies that are made of each. Even so, that's a tremendous burden. The hardest part of the process is drawing, not making copies. If you force artists to draw/provide an original work for every fanart they want to sell, it's ridiculously time-consuming. It doesn't matter if I end up only making one copy of the original art or 20 copies, the burden is still there. That, and it still doesn't allow for creative fan artists to do what they do best. Some people make a name for themselves with quality original art, some people make their name with quality fanart. The 50/50 rule would disrespect that, crush sales for some artists, and make Fanime no longer fun and worthwhile for some artists.

Also good point about it possibly dissolving into a check-every-good system. That would be bad. That's why I say keep Fanime's system as it is, it's a good balance as it is.

I think another important point that someone brought up is that artists do tend to create things the last minute. When you think about it, there's nothing special about it, but it does make a difference as to what shows up at the artist alley in the end. Someone could be approved for the alley and show up with tons of new art that the staff may find unacceptable. Some artists also submit links to their work, but they only put up "certain" works that the alley would deem ok just to pass through the system. (I know of one artist that does this.) It would be too tough on the staff to check each item that comes in, but as we all work on our art, sometimes we may not know if it's really acceptable or not. I know last year, a few people showed up with stolen fanart. ^^;

I personally agree a bit more with a 70/30 rule, really. As an artist myself, I feel that we should all grow and expand our horizons beyond fanart. Perhaps consider it a challenge. While fanart also takes skill, you're still "piggybacking" off of another artist's success because you did not create the series you're drawing fanart of; you didn't make the characters, their story, or the world they live in. It still takes creativity, but only to an extent. And you're not even losing that much money, since you don't even have to print a bajillion copies of your original stuff if you don't think it'll sell as much. I want to sell fanart just as much as the next person, but I'd still like to see original work that sells on its own merit.

And at least the 50/50 or even a 70/30 rule would be a compromise in this situation. I'd definitely prefer that over no fanart at all.

I just feel like instead of getting all up in arms over it, everyone should try and stop and actually consider the intent. Fanime staff only wants to encourage us to create and grow; they want to support budding artists like all of us. I personally would love to sell some original comics in AA and share my ideas with a creative community, but find the idea a bit discouraging when my fellow artists seem so anti-original work. It's rather depressing, really.

Yeah but the 50/50 rule won't stop at just prints. It means anything fanart related. So lets say I want to do "themes" one year. Pins, stickers, keychains etc etc each one from a separate fandom. Now I would have to split everything accordingly to make sure it is all 50/50. I have
to have the same amount of original art as the same amount of fan art that I come up with and
like TTYLS said
It does put a burden on the artist. That means they have to make sure everything matches and that for ever little piece of fanart I do I have to have original art as well.
What if I don't want to do it? Well now I have to. I think that's plain out silly.

Also forgot to add what about the artists that have worked in artist alley before? They have extras of keychains or whatever but now instead of just being able to sell it they have to make other art matching it even when they are just trying to get rid of the extras! That is just ridiculous!

And seriously-these artists are coming to an anime convention at a place called fanime and taking place in the artist alley. Do you think artists really care if their original art doesn't get as much attention as fanart? No. They went there to make money and perhaps meet other artists.

Besides-original art does get attention. Even though fanart is more popular but if your original art is good enough you are still going to draw people in either way. Why make a stupid rule and force it upon people when now people have a choice to do what they want to do-whether it be selling fanart or original art.

I see your point on how you'd think it "encourage" people to look at the original art but think about it. You have 500 business cards on your table the people are going to grab it and look through your art anyways and see all your art on the website.
If you have a portfolio people will look through it and if you do commissions will commission you. If you sell original art prints then woop de doo. I don't understand why a 50/50 rule should be implemented while fanime is fine as it is.

Yeah. With a rule like 50/50 that isn't "encouraging" artists to grow. That is suppressing them. If they want to "improve" by creating original art and selling it that should be  a choice so artists that want to continue drawing fan art can do so. But people do imporve when creating fan art as well. I learned a lot from doing commissions.

And you CAN totally sell original comics or whatever you want to do. I don't know what is stopping you. Just put it on your table for sale! I don't understand why this rule has to be implemented so you can put one of your original comics on the table to sell.
When I went to fanime last year there were people with their original comics out and people do actually buy them.
And no one here is "anti original work"
The only thing they are is "anti 50/50 rule"

I am a fan of original work and I don't care when people have it. If it is something I like I will consider buying it



I just think for artists in the artist alley who are selling their items should have it be a choice whether they want to sell fan art or original art. FANIME SYSTEM IS GOOD AS IS Period.






PS:And how do people rushing art jobs last minute do anything? (unless they are tracing or something)
Sure they can show up with stuff unacceptable but I thought that if somethings wrong just report it to fanime staff and they will take care of it.
No artist is that stupid. Unless they want to get banned. If someone showed up with stolen fanart then they should be reported and then taken care of.
Is this supposed to relate to the 50/50 rule at all or is this just another thing entirely I am confused??

I actually end up rushing to get things done for a convention simply because of the other stuff I have going on in my life (AP biology plus figure skating plus art equals no life at all). I might come up with a really, really good idea two days before a con. Getting it drawn and printed before then? No problem. However, if I had to make an original art piece to go along with it, I don't think that it would be very manageable. Therefore, in some incidences, the 50/50 rule would definitely be an impairment.

Honestly, in any business-ish environment, there will be people who use some not-so-nice methods, such as tracing fanart, to get ahead. If these people put the traced are online, it can be caught, but there will always be some people who disobey the rules, and they won't always be caught immediately. I think that trying to enforce tons of regulations, such as the 50/50 rule would not solve these problems. There will always be sneaky people, no matter what. I understand that the convention can get into legal trouble, but I don't think the 50/50 rule will do anything to help. In fact, it could actually make things worse. For example, some desperate person might think, "I don't have enough original art... why don't I go find some nice obscure original art on the internet and change it a little".

I agree with princeofrose. Forcing me to sell original work would be stifling, not encouraging. I generally don't feel like scanning and coloring my original art. Most of it stays in my sketchbook and is colored with Copics, if at all. However, the vast majority of my fanart is digital. Basically, I have a completely different creative process depending on what I want to draw. It doesn't mean that I value my original art less; I just like to keep it in my sketchbook. If I was required to sell original art, I would almost HAVE to make it into full color digital art in order to make it presentable. I would do this if I had to, but at the moment, I'm just not that interested at selling my original art, and I do think that, if the 50/50 rule was in place, I would most likely do a bunch of kinda scribble-y original art postcards (the easy way out). I don't think that's very creative, but with fanime in less than 90 days, it's what I would have time to do. Therefore, I think the 50/50 rule could definitely detract from the quality and creativeness of the art sold at fanime.

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
Yeah but the 50/50 rule won't stop at just prints. It means anything fanart related. So lets say I want to do "themes" one year. Pins, stickers, keychains etc etc each one from a separate fandom. Now I would have to split everything accordingly to make sure it is all 50/50. I have
to have the same amount of original art as the same amount of fan art that I come up with and
like TTYLS said
It does put a burden on the artist. That means they have to make sure everything matches and that for ever little piece of fanart I do I have to have original art as well.
What if I don't want to do it? Well now I have to. I think that's plain out silly.

Also forgot to add what about the artists that have worked in artist alley before? They have extras of keychains or whatever but now instead of just being able to sell it they have to make other art matching it even when they are just trying to get rid of the extras! That is just ridiculous!

First off, I highly doubt they're going to be SO strict that you have to have your items counted so precisely. People are blowing this WAY out of proportion.

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
And seriously-these artists are coming to an anime convention at a place called fanime and taking place in the artist alley. Do you think artists really care if their original art doesn't get as much attention as fanart? No. They went there to make money and perhaps meet other artists.

Um, wow, rude. I care, thank you very much. I hope to sell at Fanime in 2014, and while I know full well that fanart will sell more, I would be pretty damn sad if none of my original work sold because of people with that attitude.

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
Besides-original art does get attention. Even though fanart is more popular but if your original art is good enough you are still going to draw people in either way. Why make a stupid rule and force it upon people when now people have a choice to do what they want to do-whether it be selling fanart or original art.

Uh, barely. I hardly see any original work in AA, and I try to actively look. And no, I don't think commissions count. And the rule isn't "stupid," it has good intentions and just needs kinks and details worked out, hence the discussion.

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
I see your point on how you'd think it "encourage" people to look at the original art but think about it. You have 500 business cards on your table the people are going to grab it and look through your art anyways and see all your art on the website.
If you have a portfolio people will look through it and if you do commissions will commission you. If you sell original art prints then woop de doo. I don't understand why a 50/50 rule should be implemented while fanime is fine as it is.

It's not quite the same. And as I mentioned, I'm more in favor of a 70/30 rule or even as small as 80/20. I'd just like to see a greater percentage than 1% original work. I feel like the idea has good intent. And there's plenty of people who will just take your business card and either 1. not actually look you up later or 2. only follow your work for your fanart.

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
Yeah. With a rule like 50/50 that isn't "encouraging" artists to grow. That is suppressing them. If they want to "improve" by creating original art and selling it that should be  a choice so artists that want to continue drawing fan art can do so. But people do imporve when creating fan art as well. I learned a lot from doing commissions.

And you CAN totally sell original comics or whatever you want to do. I don't know what is stopping you. Just put it on your table for sale! I don't understand why this rule has to be implemented so you can put one of your original comics on the table to sell.
When I went to fanime last year there were people with their original comics out and people do actually buy them.
And no one here is "anti original work"
The only thing they are is "anti 50/50 rule"

I am a fan of original work and I don't care when people have it. If it is something I like I will consider buying it

And now you're contradicting yourself, dear. You just said earlier you're unlikely to look for and buy original work, and now you're changing your statement saying you're a fan of it. Also, you're completely neglecting the proposed 70/30 rule which I keep saying I also prefer because it allows for more fanart for fellow artists like you. Additionally, if this is so "oppressing" then I wonder what you'd think of art school or a college art program, since they certainly wouldn't allow fanart there either because they want you to build upon your own ideas.

Um, excuse me, but this isn't about me. I was simply stating my opinion; the high concentration of fanart drowns out the original work, and I find that discouraging. You're being EXTREMELY rude and degrading towards me and my opinion and I do not appreciate that. I have been trying to represent both sides of the argument and make valid points because I can understand the intent of the proposed rule and the feelings of the artists. You're essentially calling my opinions "stupid" and chastising my examples when I am also an artist just like you, and a hopeful future participant in AA. This should be a debate, not an argument.

God damn. Nobody can express a freaking opinion these days. Why did I even bother. =_=

Quote from: Armored-Heart on February 29, 2012, 10:14:20 PM


It's not quite the same. And as I mentioned, I'm more in favor of a 70/30 rule or even as small as 80/20. I'd just like to see a greater percentage than 1% original work. I feel like the idea has good intent. And there's plenty of people who will just take your business card and either 1. not actually look you up later or 2. only follow your work for your fanart.

...

Um, excuse me, but this isn't about me. I was simply stating my opinion; the high concentration of fanart drowns out the original work, and I find that discouraging. You're being EXTREMELY rude and degrading towards me and my opinion and I do not appreciate that. I have been trying to represent both sides of the argument and make valid points because I can understand the intent of the proposed rule and the feelings of the artists. You're essentially calling my opinions "stupid" and chastising my examples when I am also an artist just like you, and a hopeful future participant in AA. This should be a debate, not an argument.

I spent maybe an hour in the artist alley and I found at least two tables that were entirely devoted to original art. One of them sold these adorable cupcake necklaces that I contemplated buying for a moment. At the other table, there were all sorts of things: prints, stickers, even temporary tattoos. I didn't buy anything simply because I didn't have any cash.

However, these people only attracted my attention because they were AMAZING. I'll be the first to say that my art isn't that good. I'm not bad, but I know that I'm not anywhere near fantastic enough to make my original art stand out like that. While I'll continue practicing my original art, I'm not going to sell it until I'm completely confident in its ability to attract an audience. My main goal as an artist is to make people smile, to give them something pretty to enjoy. If people would rather have fanart, so be it. I'll just focus on fanart.

Fanart does drown out original work; that can only be expected at an anime convention. If original art sold better, there would be a lot more of it. Artist alley is a business, and people tend to draw what will make the biggest profit. You can still sell your original art, and if you really, REALLY want to get noticed with original art, strive to produce the best art possible. :) It may not seem like it, but many people, myself included, have a great deal of respect for original art.

Don't get discouraged. Just try your best and you'll be rewarded for your efforts.

I appreciate that chibimonster, and I agree with your points. At the moment I'm just a bit disgruntled from having my opinion degraded, since I'm generally a very open-minded person who prefers to have polite debates about these sorts of things; I acknowledge that not everyone shares my opinion and I respect that, so naturally I would like the same respect from others without things getting kind of hostile. Really, it'd be ideal for artists to willingly supply original work. But given the current state of things, I just think that the proposal of a 70/30 rule has good intentions and is something to be discussed. It's not my intent to make any artist feel "oppressed", nor do I want my opinions to be attacked because they differ from another's.

To me, a 70/30 rule seems a lot more reasonable. It'd still be a bit of a hassle, but I'd be willing to go along with that... I actually have a few good ideas (better than the scribble-y postcards).

I'm just wondering if the admins are seriously considering implementing such a rule for this or future years. (Helloooo, admins... where are youuu?)

Haha It's 11 PM. I should probably stop being silly.

I believe ewu stated earlier that they're still working on an official response. ^^;

Considering the emails AA artists have gotten regarding the matter, I believe they are serious. /shrug

QuoteAnd now you're contradicting yourself, dear. You just said earlier you're unlikely to look for and buy original work, and now you're changing your statement saying you're a fan of it. Also, you're completely neglecting the proposed 70/30 rule which I keep saying I also prefer because it allows for more fanart for fellow artists like you. Additionally, if this is so "oppressing" then I wonder what you'd think of art school or a college art program, since they certainly wouldn't allow fanart there either because they want you to build upon your own ideas.

Um, excuse me, but this isn't about me. I was simply stating my opinion; the high concentration of fanart drowns out the original work, and I find that discouraging. You're being EXTREMELY rude and degrading towards me and my opinion and I do not appreciate that. I have been trying to represent both sides of the argument and make valid points because I can understand the intent of the proposed rule and the feelings of the artists. You're essentially calling my opinions "stupid" and chastising my examples when I am also an artist just like you, and a hopeful future participant in AA. This should be a debate, not an argument.

God damn. Nobody can express a freaking opinion these days. Why did I even bother. =_=

Alright. Here is the thing. I DO occasionally buy original art. I go to fanime expecting and searching for "fanart" But if I find some original art that intrigues me/tickles my fancy I will buy it. I don't look for it. I see it. If there is a booth with really cool looking original art that I like I will go up and get it. I meant I am a fan of it as in I don't mind people selling and creating it. I just don't want to be forced to create original art for every fan art piece I create.

You say 70/30 or 80/20 rule-it is free of choice now. That is like regressing. Sure I can draw fan art but I'd still have to draw some original art in return. Being forced to do it after being told that I have free of choice is the thing that I find not very pleasing. It's like saying "Hey you can do whatever you want. Oh by the way you can't do whatever you want you have to do a little of this instead."

I'm sorry if I am being "rude" I don't mean to come off that way but like I said-you are trying to take something that is free by choice and force upon artists to abide by the new rules if enforced.

And I have seen a lot of original art booths in my time I have been to fanime. There was a booth ONLY dedicated to original art. I bought like 5 prints of hers. There was another person that did like I think fairy art? And all her original art prints sold like hot cakes. Other people did a theme with cute little chibis that had all the different styles of lolita. They were really adorable and I wanted it but it was the last day and I was already broke.

With original art it is harder because everyones preference is different. Some people like cute art. Some people like horror. While others like a certain style. No matter what some people just won't buy your stuff because "They don't like the way you draw girls" or "your men are too manly" You are going to have to learn away to please the certain crowds of "WOW" The buyers. Yes, original art can sometimes get overshadowed with fanart but what can you expect? It is an anime convention you are going to.

Even with the 80/20 50/50 whatever rule you want-it isn't going to make much of a difference. With more original art pieces on the table just means that you have more competition which means its just the same. You just have to find a way to shine and you can. I have seen a lot of artists who have done that. Whether it be from cute things/horror/or whatever.

I have a table and I want to be able to choose what I put on that table whether it be fan art or all original art whatever. If you want to make original art and sell it then do so. Hang them on PVC pipes-that gets more attention. Figure out what people like and make work based on it. Do commissions. Whatever works. Just don't take away others people choices of selling whatever they want at their own table.

I also wanted to add that I have been to conventions where-like fanime- it is free of choice. Some people decided to sell on original art while others only fan art-there were people who did only original art sold pretty well and they weren't the best of the best. Their art just appealed to crowds. They did really awesome art based on dark folklore/fairytales. They had prints that sold out.


Also what in the world does college have to do with this? That is an entirely different situation and has nothing to do with the convention. College is a whole nother thing
Fanime artist alley is for fun- To do whatever you want to before you have to go to college and draw naked people 24/7 XD

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
I just think for artists in the artist alley who are selling their items should have it be a choice whether they want to sell fan art or original art. FANIME SYSTEM IS GOOD AS IS Period.

That's the point I am trying to make. The Fanime system is better than most, but there are still some issues that need to be addressed. I was basically told that I could not sell fanart at all simply because of my choice of art medium. But it wasn't in so many words so I'm waiting to see what is ok and what isn't.

Quote from: princeofrose on February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
PS:And how do people rushing art jobs last minute do anything? (unless they are tracing or something)
Sure they can show up with stuff unacceptable but I thought that if somethings wrong just report it to fanime staff and they will take care of it.
No artist is that stupid. Unless they want to get banned. If someone showed up with stolen fanart then they should be reported and then taken care of.
Is this supposed to relate to the 50/50 rule at all or is this just another thing entirely I am confused??

And there are instances of people rushing to do things last minute. You need to think outside of the print artists. People who work with their hands can make things even up to the day before. I know I do. This was just a point I wanted to bring up. It's not related to the 50/50 rule. And yes, you can report stolen works at the con to the staff and yes they do take care of it. They do a good job, really. I was just thinking that it's sad that even though they take so many precautions ahead of time, sometimes things just pop up anyways.

@ Lil moon
Did you ask them what exactly they said that you could not sell and why? Was it really because they were plushies? :O
Is it because they look too much like the real thing?
And yeah-I would do things the day before too (while stressing out majorly at the same time haha) Yeah things always pop up it is always going to happen. But at least it can be reported and taken care of.


@Armored-Heart
Just to state this out-
We are always going to be on two different sides of the same coin. Me fanart-you original art. Fanart vs original art is basically what this comes down to.

For me I sell mostly fanart (or plan to) because I enjoy drawing it more than original art. It is more fun to draw art of characters that I love. It is hard for me to sell originals because all the originals I do are of my own characters which I get attached to which means I will not want to sell them. To sell my originals I'd have to create a picture that I am completely detached from which means that I will not put as much effort into it because It is not of fanart or my own OCs which I enjoy drawing. It means in the end I'll have a semi good picture that I dislike that I have wasted X amount of hours on and have to put it down on my table because of the new rule to match my fanart.

It is the "must sell X% of original art" that gets me. I can be required to set down some original art for people to look at but having to be required to sell is a whole nother story. I bought my table and I expect to sell whatever amount of original or fanart stuff on it. No percentages 80/20 rules whatsoever.

I know you are an inspiring original artist and feel overshadowed by the fanart that is there but no matter what it is always going to be that way. Just because you do not want to be overshadowed doesn't mean you should take other artists down with you. With the rules now everyone is free and content-rules are simple. You buy your table then sell what you want. Walaa~!

If you really are worried about your original art selling or being "overshadowed" then you can work your way around it. Perhaps with your comic book give the person who buys it an extra item-like a small sticker or even a fanart keychain or whatever just to get your name out there. With your book in their hands people will read it and then you will start developing fans which equals a fanbase! Sure-it means a bit of extra work but that is what it is.

Quote from: princeofrose on March 01, 2012, 01:14:58 AM
@ Lil moon
Did you ask them what exactly they said that you could not sell and why? Was it really because they were plushies? :O
Is it because they look too much like the real thing?
And yeah-I would do things the day before too (while stressing out majorly at the same time haha) Yeah things always pop up it is always going to happen. But at least it can be reported and taken care of.

Well, they basically told me that they saw my fanart (they listed a few, but used the word etc too) and said that I could not sell it, but that my originals were ok. ^^'' That was all so there was no explanation. That's way I sent them a follow-up email.

@princeofrose- Okay, stop. Just stop. I'm just stating a goddamn opinion, not "trying to take other artists down with me" or "trying to limit their creativity." Hell, I'm not "trying to" do anything aside from state my opinion on the matter. I feel that in situations like this, both sides of the discussion should be considered. Like I said, I like and draw fanart too. And I had already stated that such a rule would need to be worked out considerably, and not just thrown into place. This is not about me trying to sell my comic, I was using it as an example and you're jumping all over it. This is not about my ability to be a logical businesswoman or how skilled I am as an artist. You're being really rude towards me when I'm simply stating my opinion. I highly doubt anything I say will have any effect on what Fanime staff decides to do; even if they do decide to put a rule in place, it won't be because of me or my opinion. This is simply a DISCUSSION between fellow artists and I would appreciate it if you didn't attack my opinion so harshly and ridicule my examples.

I already said I didn't really approve of the current "no fanart at all" situation because I know that's how many of you make your money and that's what you like to draw. 50/50 is still harsh, but I'm chill with the idea if it's deciding between that or none at all, but a much smaller percentage of original work as a minimum is more reasonable. The intentions are good and I'm sure staff has their hearts in the right place, but there are loopholes and other things to be worked out.

Furthermore, if you like drawing your OCs (and when I say OC I'm assuming original character and not fan character) why not turn them into original prints? I don't see why you'd have to be so "detached" from them by making prints of them or what have you. It's not like you're selling them off to a company never to see them again, you're selling a print of them and potentially sparking inspiration for someone else. If someone had a really well drawn print of a well-designed OC in the midst of battle/interacting with their environment/etc or made a cool comic with them and it caught my interest I would certainly buy it. I don't see why you have to not like an OC to sell it; that seems counter-productive really, since if you don't love your work, it's doubtful that anyone else will, either.

I want the fanime staff to be able to see both sides before they make a call if they do. And I am hoping if they do it will be for next year so artists don't have to worry about anything until next year.

Because I am feeling like I am selling my own character-I'm afraid the person will take it and think that since they bought it they can do whatever they want with it. Which means they can take the same character and call it their own or something like that.
Yeah-if the character wasn't the focus of the picture and it had a lot of other things that was the main focal point that I would want to sell it more
however that would take a long long time to do-time that I might not have.

@Lil-Moon
Do you think that your fanart looks too much like the original character-as in-I saw you made plushies. Have you researched and seen if the company itself have made plushies for that anime/tv show/video game etc. If they did and it looks too closely like yours then maybe that is why they said you can not sell it?
Yeah I am sure they will reply soon.

@princeofrose- I think the anti-rule side is very well represented, which is why I've been speaking up about my opinions. You've been consistently putting down me and my opinion that partially supports the proposal of some sort of regulation, so I fail to see how you also "want to see both sides." I do however agree that it's a bit too close to Fanime to suddenly bring in such a rule, though. Artists need time to prepare their work, which is why I'm not participating this year; I want to perfect my products.

And that's definitely not the case; people don't buy fanart and think they own the intellectual property copyrights, now do they? You don't pick up a copy of Zelda and think that because you own a copy of the game, you suddenly own that series and can do whatever you want with Link. It's the exact same thing.

Quote from: princeofrose on March 01, 2012, 10:52:28 AMBecause I am feeling like I am selling my own character-I'm afraid the person will take it and think that since they bought it they can do whatever they want with it. Which means they can take the same character and call it their own or something like that.

... may I suggest looking at this statement from the perspective of those original copyright-holders whose characters you're drawing fanart for?  It's by no means an exact comparison, but it's still got similarities ...

I think the fanime staff are debating about they rule then they should have artists vote on it.
They should have a brief description of each and then the pros and cons of each-then send out emails to all the artists and then have them vote. Sure they'd have to make an e-mail to send to every artist but then whatever wins people would know.
Also post the poll on facebook/main fanime website so other people can vote as well.
Maybe artists that didn't get into the artist alley or something?
Just so it gets a fair chance and isn't done in by only people in the forums or something like that. It will be everybody. And if it is done that way then I won't mind and there won't be as much as an uproar afterwards if one thing gets chosen over the other.

Well that is the thing-Zelda is popular. The art of your original character isn't-the internet is huge. What are the chances that you will find the person that is using X character to do whatever? But its alright, if I draw for fanime I will create something entirely different. I don't like using my own OCs unless its for myself. The only OCS I have are going to my portfolio lol. If I sell original prints it'll be like mermaids or something.

@Charis And by fanart for do you mean commissions or something?

Quote from: princeofrose on March 01, 2012, 11:20:40 AM@Charis And by fanart for do you mean commissions or something?

No, I mean that you say you're drawing fanart -- some character that was created by someone else, whether a manga-ka or a television producer or whatever -- without their knowledge or consent, just as you say someone might take your own character and use them in turn.  Have you considered that perhaps they feel the same way about the idea of people drawing their creations as you do about your own?  It's a one-sided view to come out so strongly on the pro-fanart side and then say something like you did, since it shows a lack of consideration of how that element feels.

(I feel like I need to disclaim: I am neither pro-fanart nor anti-fanart. I tend to look more for original pieces than fanart in artist's alley, though one could say it's because the characters/seria I like aren't likely to be represented.  I don't think anyone here is necessarily right or wrong, but I think there are also some important elements -- like legalities -- that are being largely disregarded in this discussion too.  But mostly, your statement just struck me as ironic given your stance on the subject as presented herein.)

Popularity has nothing to do with it; besides, even popular webcomics started out somewhere, and their work had to rise in popularity over time. It's a matter of intellectual property rights.

Charis is basically saying (And Charis, please correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize if I misinterpret your opinion.) that it's a bit hypocritical to say you don't want to sell work involving your own characters because you think the buyer would think they could do whatever they want with it, when you insist on selling fanart and are essentially doing the same thing with someone else's characters. You're piggybacking off of the success of another, but you don't want to share your original stuff because you worry that someone could do the same to you.

Well I am not exactly pro fanart. The main thing is Freedom of Choice
The ability to choose what I want to put on my table-whether it be all fanart or all original art or half and half. That's it.

Well with my original stuff its different. I'll create something else-me drawing a character in general in a picture would still be my character because I created it. I am still selling it. It doesn't have to be of my original characters because no matter what I draw it will still be something I created in the first place. I will create characters to sell-but the thing I won't want to sell is the characters I created specifically for my novel etc.
After I write it and illustrate it and it gets out to public if people want to make fanart then I won't care. They can do whatever they want.

Yes, I understand what you are saying-and I still will sell original art prints. Just not of the things I created in the past. If I make prints to sell it'd be something new out of my head entirely. That is what I meant-not of my old characters that are sitting in the dust. If I create something new entirely then I will sell it. Or if it is of my own character in another outfit with a pretty bg with patterns everywhere etc. I was actually (if I had time) create some original prints to sell. I make them a bit different (clothes wise) like put my own spin on it.

You're not really addressing the point we made regarding the hypocrisy of your statement. You're just trying to backtrack and change your statement. =/

And I can understand wanting freedom of choice, but I think the idea to consider here is that because of that freedom, most people only sell fanart because that's what is expected to sell and what people are encouraged to buy. The intent of the proposed rule is to allow original art to gain more ground in AA, because essentially, selling fanart is a whole boatload of copyright infringement, and while it's doubtful that the copyright owners would press charges, the current situation basically encourages artists to profit off of someone else's ideas instead of their own.

Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

Quote from: LadyUni on March 01, 2012, 01:41:22 PM
Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

QFT

Yeah I was in a rush-
I don't understand why I am getting bashed for not wanting to sell art of my original characters. I'll sell original prints if I want to but not of my own characters. I would make new things instead. Thats that.

And yes-with fanart you are technically drawing other people's creations and selling them etc. etc.
But if the companies/creators really had a huge problem with it then I am sure they would of done something to ban it from happening. Plus-what fan artists are drawing aren't an exact copy of the fanart itself. Its just that character with ideas coming out of their own mind that they think its cute that they put down on paper. They just have the character as a centerpiece.
The people who created video games/anime/ whatever know that once they get their idea out there people are going to draw fanart of it an create new things with it. That is the chance they have to take.
When I create something and send it out to the world I know that the same thing could happen to me. I can either- 1) let the people draw fanart of it or 2) try and get them from not doing so. I'll let people draw fanart etc. because I love seeing what people can come up with. I am sure a lot of other animators think that well too.

And people can still make money off their original ideas. People do still look at original art. One way to draw people in as well is posting some fanart-and then having your original art at the side. People will be at your booth and they will see your original stuff and maybe they will like it a lot and purchase it.
The rule itself just would be a hassle-specially when it comes to breaking things up.
Lets say you have the 80/20 rule or the 70/30 rule
You make 2 HUGE posters that are like-I don't know...like banners. That big. The art itself took you lets say a really friggin long time to create. Does that mean you have to create original art to match that exact thing now? Because that'd be possible but it'd take a lot of time and what if it was the last month?
What about the people that create tiny little trinkets? Like keychains pins or whatever-would the rule apply for that as well?
Everything like that has to be taken into consideration.
And what about commissions? You are still doing original art for other people would that be considered under the rules as well since you are selling art to other people of whatever they want.

But even with the 80/20 rule whatever it'd still be the same. Sure there would be a tad more of original art out there but fanart will still overshadow it and people are still not going to buy as much as they would for fanart.
It would seriously hurt people's wallets if that happened and make it a lot more work to do. That would mean I'd have to create all the things I had planned in 90 days-fanart, portfolio, business cards etc. and then original art on top of that.

I still think it'd be best if every artist voted on it.

And I thought fanime was for everything-selling fanart and original art. Original art can still be recognized and treasured even with the "freedom of choice" thing we have right now so why change it? Sure you have a rule that makes you put original art out-but fan art will still be there and then you'd be competing with a bunch of other original artists to sell/get your name out there. It would be like the exact same thing just with a little more original prints or whatever to sell.

EDIT:
Ignore this post. No rules are to be made so I am not going to debate anymore.

This post is to not say that anything has been out of line, but it's getting kinda close to it. I appreciate the conversations and input that everyone is putting into it, but please remember that nothing has been finalized for next year's AA rule. Some of the posts here are being made (or seems like it) with the assumption that FanimeCon is going to move to a 50/50 rule.

Please remember that all rules that we create, modify, and enforce is for the benefit of the convention and members. Making any little (or big) rule change will always make someone unhappy.

Keep up the good conversations but remember that we're all apart of FanimeCon. :)

Quote from: princeofrose on March 01, 2012, 10:52:28 AM
@Lil-Moon
Do you think that your fanart looks too much like the original character-as in-I saw you made plushies. Have you researched and seen if the company itself have made plushies for that anime/tv show/video game etc. If they did and it looks too closely like yours then maybe that is why they said you can not sell it?
Yeah I am sure they will reply soon.

....well, I really don't like repeating myself. I have answered your questions already in other posts. I do research everything I make before I make it because I really don't want to get in trouble. I do make the effort to make my plushies different from the companys. I really don't get any satisfaction out of copying something that's already been made. And I do like to make plushies of characters that have also not been officially made. So I am doing as much as I can not to copy. But I do like to try to make it look like the character so it doesn't look cheaply made. So my plushies could be questioned maybe because they look too good?  ;D

Quote from: LadyUni on March 01, 2012, 01:41:22 PM
Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

I totally agree. I mean, yes, one of the factors is for profit, but another reason is, I simply enjoy making fanart. I want to make fanart to make other fans happy and to promote a series that I really enjoy. I love how the fans come over and we can chat about the series. I especially like it when cosplayers show up and by a fanart of who ever they are cosplaying as. I also like to use it to show off my skills. I want to make good quality plushies that look better than the Chinese knock-offs or even the original company's. I use it to improve my 3D design skills by trying to see how I can make a 2D character into a 3D form. These aren't something I just slap together for mere profits, I put heart and care into each fanart I make. If I didn't care about the series, I wouldn't be trying so hard. It makes me angry when I hear that artists only make the fanart for profit and they have no interest in the series what so ever.  >:(

Kinda off topic here...
I have to admit, I don't like hetalia very much. However, I will be selling some hetalia fanart at fanime. Yes, it will make a fair amount of money. However, it will also make a lot of hetalia fans happy. For example, I have several friends who regularly attend fanime and love hetalia. For some reason beyond my comprehension, they are also big fans of my art (I'm not THAT good, really...) and they frequently beg me to draw stuff for them. I know it would make them happy if I had some hetalia stuff to sell. The profits are really just an added bonus.

Anyway, I think any motivation for drawing a piece is valid. If you love a series and want to draw fanart of it, that's cool. If the fanart is more for someone else's enjoyment than yours, that's cool, too. If you want to draw fanart of a series that you don't know/like because you're a businessperson looking to make a profit, that's still cool. Regardless of your reason, some customer will walk away with a piece of art to enjoy.

The most important thing is originality. If I draw fanart of anyone, I'm going to make it creative. I don't like Rin and Len very much, but, again, there are tons of people who like them, so I'll consider selling a print of them. Having them pose against a white background is the most unoriginal, boring thing ever. Therefore, I'll draw them window shopping at night in a crowded city. Still, just drawing them walking around with generic happy expressions on their faces would be boring; I'd rather try to tell a little story. How about this: Rin sees something she really wants in a nearby window and is pulling Len towards it. Len would probably be very reluctant to shop for anything, so I'll draw him looking annoyed and trying to resist being dragged away by Rin.

Even though I'm not really a fan of Rin and Len, I've just thought of a fairly original idea involving the two of them (At least, as far as I know - I made it up as I wrote this). Probably, someone out there will like it and want to by it. Does it make me any less creative that I drew a picture of a couple of characters that I don't especially like? In my opinion, no.

@ chibimonster: No, I'm not saying it makes you any less creative. Good artists can still make good fanart regardless if they like the series or not. It's hard for me to say what I mean, but I do feel a little awkward when I try to talk to an artist about their piece or the series and they just stare back at me with a blank face. Then I'm thinking, "Well, why did you make this it you don't know anything about it?" That's not to say that you don't. That's just my opnion. I don't have much respect for an artist who doesn't know anything about the piece that he or she is making and is merely doing so because it is "popular." Some artists you can tell right off that they did so if all their pieces look the same with different characters in the same pose with little alteration. XD

Quote from: LiL Moon on March 01, 2012, 09:53:37 PM
@ chibimonster: No, I'm not saying it makes you any less creative. Good artists can still make good fanart regardless if they like the series or not. It's hard for me to say what I mean, but I do feel a little awkward when I try to talk to an artist about their piece or the series and they just stare back at me with a blank face. Then I'm thinking, "Well, why did you make this it you don't know anything about it?" That's not to say that you don't. That's just my opnion. I don't have much respect for an artist who doesn't know anything about the piece that he or she is making and is merely doing so because it is "popular." Some artists you can tell right off that they did so if all their pieces look the same with different characters in the same pose with little alteration. XD

I have a bit of an issue with that simply because I think art should tell a story. It can be as simple as showing a character experiencing a certain emotion or as complex as a love triangle. It just has to be something other than a generic happy face and a recycled pose.

Actually, how do these artists draw fanart of characters they don't know at all? Go to google images? I don't mean to criticize, but that's kinda strange. I can understand having to google reference pics if someone's doing a commission, but i someone's going to draw fanart, they should have some time to familiarize themselves with the character's costume and personality. Out-of-character fanart isn't a very good thing. I would never attempt to draw anyone with a complex costume, such as Miku, if I wasn't completely familiar with the way it moved/looked.

Quote from: chibimonster on March 01, 2012, 10:08:18 PM
I have a bit of an issue with that simply because I think art should tell a story. It can be as simple as showing a character experiencing a certain emotion or as complex as a love triangle. It just has to be something other than a generic happy face and a recycled pose.

Actually, how do these artists draw fanart of characters they don't know at all? Go to google images? I don't mean to criticize, but that's kinda strange. I can understand having to google reference pics if someone's doing a commission, but i someone's going to draw fanart, they should have some time to familiarize themselves with the character's costume and personality. Out-of-character fanart isn't a very good thing. I would never attempt to draw anyone with a complex costume, such as Miku, if I wasn't completely familiar with the way it moved/looked.

I think it depends on the person, but I don't care too much if the art tells a story or not. I also like art that just focuses on the character.

It's not that hard for people to make fanart of a character and know little about it. I mean, you could just google what popular now, look up a few reference pics, some screencaps and that's all. You really don't need to read up on their personality or the story background if you don't want to. That's enough to give you something like a basic fan commission. And in no way am I insulting fan commissions. I think those artists are nice to do something like that on the spot. Out-of-character fanart reminds me of parodies. I think those are pretty funny and creative.

Parodies are one thing (and I think they're hilarious, too), but it's another if someone just randomly draws Sasuke looking all smiley and happy. If I were to buy a fanart of Sasuke, I'd want one of him looking all angry, like how he is in the story. This is mainly just my opinion; I'm sure there are a bunch of people who would enjoy seeing a drawing of him smiling: "Oh look... it's Sasuke... and he's actually smiling!"

And I like commissions. They're fun to do. :) Except when someone gives me a reference picture and the costume is the most complicated thing ever. Then I think, "Wait... I have to draw THIS??" I guess I'm just paranoid about making mistakes, but having to draw something really elaborate on the spot is scary.

Quote from: LadyUni on March 01, 2012, 01:41:22 PM
Hm...

I'm reading quite a few arguments in favor of selling fanart due to the income and how much of a hassle it is to create original work.
While I'm all for selling fanart at a place meant for recognizing such subjects...
...that little detail really bothers me.

If y'all would like your arguments to even be taken into consideration, perhaps you should briefly examine why you're pushing the matter and wonder it's backed by completely selfish/greedy motivation as opposed to professional reasoning.

Just layin' that out there.

Others have already mentioned the whole making fans happy thing, and I have to agree that selling fanart really contributes to the atmosphere of the con -- both for fans looking for their favorite characters, and for the artist too. We get to express our fandom of characters too, and it's a great way to bring fans of the same characters together.

The hassle associated with original art applies to artists who like to draw fanart and can't draw original characters/worlds as well. I think what a lot of people are saying is with a percentage rule, you'd be punishing them and limiting both what they can sell and how much fun they'll get out of the whole experience. While I'm sure the decreased income associated with original art factors into all of this, there are definitely other non-monetary reasons for opposing a percentage rule.

Honestly, some of us aren't even out to make any profit, even though we sell fanart. Especially for first-timers like me, I'd be absolutely delighted to just break even with all my costs, much less actually earn anything from this endeavor.

For the record, I sell both original and fan art. :3

Quote from: chibimonster on March 01, 2012, 10:08:18 PM
Actually, how do these artists draw fanart of characters they don't know at all? Go to google images? I don't mean to criticize, but that's kinda strange. I can understand having to google reference pics if someone's doing a commission, but i someone's going to draw fanart, they should have some time to familiarize themselves with the character's costume and personality. Out-of-character fanart isn't a very good thing. I would never attempt to draw anyone with a complex costume, such as Miku, if I wasn't completely familiar with the way it moved/looked.

What I do when I get a request of someone I don't know (this includes my own art and commissions) is read up on the character, usually their wiki, haha. I'll do some research on their personality, what they do in the plot, and how they're portrayed in existing images (both to make sure my idea fits and that my pose hasn't been taken yet). If I know someone who knows the series, I'll ask them about the character and run my ideas past him or her to make sure it's not OOC. I use Google images to double check details XD

Quote from: chibimonster on March 02, 2012, 07:12:43 AM
Parodies are one thing (and I think they're hilarious, too), but it's another if someone just randomly draws Sasuke looking all smiley and happy. If I were to buy a fanart of Sasuke, I'd want one of him looking all angry, like how he is in the story. This is mainly just my opinion; I'm sure there are a bunch of people who would enjoy seeing a drawing of him smiling: "Oh look... it's Sasuke... and he's actually smiling!"

And I like commissions. They're fun to do. :) Except when someone gives me a reference picture and the costume is the most complicated thing ever. Then I think, "Wait... I have to draw THIS??" I guess I'm just paranoid about making mistakes, but having to draw something really elaborate on the spot is scary.

Depends on the Sasuke. >w> I'm a Sasuke fan.

I've always wondered that too. I think I would be super nervous, especially if the commissioner is watching me. I applaud you if you still take on the task. Detailed on-the-spot commissions like that are something else.

My finger hovers over the lock button each time I read this thread...

Lets 1) keep the discussion civil and 2) keep the discussion off of legal matters unless you are a licensed atty...and no atty would post on here:) Trust me I know....

Thanks =D

Quote from: LiL Moon on March 02, 2012, 06:19:51 PM

Depends on the Sasuke. >w> I'm a Sasuke fan.

I've always wondered that too. I think I would be super nervous, especially if the commissioner is watching me. I applaud you if you still take on the task. Detailed on-the-spot commissions like that are something else.

I tend to stick to chibi commissions. People like them because they're cute, and they're easier to draw. (And Faster - I can sketch one in about 15 minutes). However, I still try to make them as detailed and accurate as possible, and it's definitely a bit scary to have a customer looming over me while I draw. At Animation on Display, someone asked for a drawing of princess Luna (from My Little Pony), which I was more than happy to draw. However, the full color thing took me a while, and he was pacing back and forth in front of my table the whole time. I like it better when the customers wander away to do something else.

I think the reason for the strong issue of Fan Art vs original is mostly due to the fact that attendees come to the AA to buy fan art.  It is very rare for an attendee to buy original work in the AA.  I personally have had a few in the past but if you put two pieces of work in front of an attendee, one Fan art and one original of the same genre that they like; more often than not they will buy the fan art or move on to another table looking for a specific series.

Artists who spend money at AA expect to be able to make that back plus the cost of their trip (and maybe pocket money or funds for school, etc).  They know the demands of the attendees going into that room very well and struggle hard to keep up with the constantly changing hot anime of the year.  Yes there are some series that will be popular no matter how old (Sailor Moon, Digimon (S1&2), Dragon Ball, etc); but most series come and go. It's also more difficult to carry over prints from a previous season into the new season because of this; so the artists have to judge carefully on how much to print.  This can lead to a lot of frustration if a print sells out too fast and people still demand it.  I saw this happen to a particular artist last year; she was selling out of 2-3 prints within a few hours and I had to drive her out to print more every day since she was wanting to meet the demands of attendees (such a sweet girl).

It may be a big mess of a grey area, but I think everyone here can agree on some level that if fan art was banned, AA would cease to exist within a few short years.

Usually when I draw fanart it is of animes/games I have played or watched/things I enjoy.
For example-Eternal Sonata-I love their outfits-so I really want to make some kind of art with those characters even though it isn't really popular (at least I don't think so I don't know D: )

When I am thinking about drawing fanart of an anime I don't know I try to at least watch one or two episodes and read about it. If I like the anime I will watch the whole thing-if not I put it on the side to maybe pick up again if I have extra time later on.
Personally I find that I have more motivation to draw fanart when it is from series I have watched and enjoyed-not ones I have no clue about.

But I do think with fanart it is fun to see some characters OOC once in a while.
Like Johann from Monster laughing hysterically and prancing around a flowery meadow....actually nevermind...that image is scary.


@Lil Moon-
Sorry for repeating myself. I had too much on my mind so I read your post but I most likely forgot when I was posting X__X;

Quote from: ewu on March 02, 2012, 07:15:57 PM
My finger hovers over the lock button each time I read this thread...

Lets 1) keep the discussion civil and 2) keep the discussion off of legal matters unless you are a licensed atty...and no atty would post on here:) Trust me I know....

Thanks =D

Well, thank you for not closing it. But I understand if you end up having to do so. I don't know if you can answer this, but do you think I should be getting a reply email soon? It's been a week now with no reply from the AA staff so I'm just curious. ^^;; I'm trying to be as patient as I can be.

Quote from: chibimonster on March 02, 2012, 07:20:39 PM
I tend to stick to chibi commissions. People like them because they're cute, and they're easier to draw. (And Faster - I can sketch one in about 15 minutes). However, I still try to make them as detailed and accurate as possible, and it's definitely a bit scary to have a customer looming over me while I draw. At Animation on Display, someone asked for a drawing of princess Luna (from My Little Pony), which I was more than happy to draw. However, the full color thing took me a while, and he was pacing back and forth in front of my table the whole time. I like it better when the customers wander away to do something else.

Oh man, I would be so nervous if someone was pacing in front of my table like that. But I bet your Luna came out great. I like Luna too. Most people tend to go away for a bit when I'm sewing them something, but I get nervous when they come back and still have to wait while I'm finishing up.

Quote from: princeofrose on March 02, 2012, 08:06:35 PM
Usually when I draw fanart it is of animes/games I have played or watched/things I enjoy.
For example-Eternal Sonata-I love their outfits-so I really want to make some kind of art with those characters even though it isn't really popular (at least I don't think so I don't know D: )

When I am thinking about drawing fanart of an anime I don't know I try to at least watch one or two episodes and read about it. If I like the anime I will watch the whole thing-if not I put it on the side to maybe pick up again if I have extra time later on.
Personally I find that I have more motivation to draw fanart when it is from series I have watched and enjoyed-not ones I have no clue about.

But I do think with fanart it is fun to see some characters OOC once in a while.
Like Johann from Monster laughing hysterically and prancing around a flowery meadow....actually nevermind...that image is scary.


@Lil Moon-
Sorry for repeating myself. I had too much on my mind so I read your post but I most likely forgot when I was posting X__X;

It's alright. I understand.  :) I do the same thing. I typically research what is popular now, then I watch a few episodes, look at other fanarts, and try to understand the story. If I don't like it after watching/reading it, I don't really feel the urge to make fanart of it. But usually, 9 times out of 10, I end up liking it more than I thought I would so I do make fanart.

Honestly, sometimes it's hard to know what the fans want. Usually I don't know for sure until I go to my first con of the year. I just go with what I "think" they want to see. Some things sell really well at certain cons, but not at others. Last year, there seemed to be a ton of Adventure Time cosplayers. O.o I was really surprised it was so popular.

Quote from: princeofrose on March 02, 2012, 08:06:35 PM
Usually when I draw fanart it is of animes/games I have played or watched/things I enjoy.
For example-Eternal Sonata-I love their outfits-so I really want to make some kind of art with those characters even though it isn't really popular (at least I don't think so I don't know D: )

When I am thinking about drawing fanart of an anime I don't know I try to at least watch one or two episodes and read about it. If I like the anime I will watch the whole thing-if not I put it on the side to maybe pick up again if I have extra time later on.
Personally I find that I have more motivation to draw fanart when it is from series I have watched and enjoyed-not ones I have no clue about.

But I do think with fanart it is fun to see some characters OOC once in a while.
Like Johann from Monster laughing hysterically and prancing around a flowery meadow....actually nevermind...that image is scary.

You like Eternal Sonata? I know whose table I'm stopping by. :) I love that game. So. Much.
It is kind of obscure, though. I can count all the people I know who like it on one hand.

I stick to things I know fairly well for prints, but I don't really get a choice with commissions. With fanart of stuff I'm not as familiar with, such as Hetalia, I go to my crazy obsessive friends. When they like something, they're the best information source ever. I tend to focus on what's popular - I'm not really a hetalia fan, but I'm going to sell fanart of it, and I really like the latest Black Rock Shooter anime, but it doesn't seem to be as popular, so I'll sell at most one print of Black Rock Shooter stuff.

At fanime, I'm considering catering to a wide range of fanbases - Madoka Magica, My little Pony, Vocaloid, Hetalia, even Naruto... and so on. (I tend to watch either the really popular anime or stuff so obscure it would be pointless to try to sell fanart of it). Since this means I'll have a large number of prints, I'll only print a few copies of each at first. If I sell out of anything, I'll just print more. That way, even though I'll end up making several trips to office max, I'll minimize the number of unnecessary prints I make.

Yeah it is hard to know what is popular D:
I made some Kuroshitsuji and hetalia things last year but I didn't get year...so I am hoping that people still like those series XD (I know Hetalia is still enjoyed but Kuroshitsuji ended so I dunno :O )

When I am unsure of what to do I usually ask friends for  information on a particular anime that I don't know much about but want to draw fanart of.
Yeah me too! I never thought that Adventure Time which is a kids show on Cartoon Network would be so popular! But then I watched it and I love it <3

Sometimes I try typing in "most popular blah blah blah" And see what it comes up with and then if I haven't seen it watch a few episodes XD

Yeah! ETERNAL SONATA WOO!
I am playing it right now actually. I stopped after you go into this mirror place and you get Crescendo in your party (playing ps3 one)
AND HE HAS THE POWER OF THE GALAXY LOLOLOLLLL
My friends groan whenever I play it because...they beat the game and they say the story is just...bad. Like the beginning its like you are stopping...um...that dude...(trying not to put spoilers in) to stop making funky evil creatures into an army to destroy everything-but it goes like a whole 180 and changes into something like totally different and weird...that probably doesn't make any sense but
I LOVE the characters and the character outfits/set designs.
That is why I played the game and want to draw them >W<-
Did you beat the game yet?
Who are you favorite characters?
I really like Jazz, Chopin, Beat (so cute), Falsetto? (the kicky girl with short hair) andddd there are more but I haven't run into them yet.
I. Can't. Stand. Salsa. I like her interactions with Beat but her...accent. Ugh. And when she says "SOLAR FLARE."
Other than that I enjoy everything else XD

Yeah if my friends say that they really love "X" anime then I will watch it and see if I enjoy it enough to draw fanart of it >:P

There is an Office Max near fanime? :O I never knew that!

I watched one of my friends play basically the entire game because we had nothing better to do over the summer. Now, I'm button mashing my way through the game. I've been a bit too busy for gaming recently :( and I'm stuck at the point where I have to fight Fugue (and actually beat him). UGH He's so annoying. And I also have the PS3 version. When I was thinking about buying a gaming console, my friends were like, "Don't get an Xbox, whatever you do".

My favorite characters are Chopin, Polka, Allegretto, Jazz, and Viola. And I also hate Salsa... she's really obnoxious (not as bad as Fugue, though).

I love all of the art in the game. It's so pretty and colorful. And I agree that the costume designs are awesome. I should cosplay as one of the characters and see how many people recognize me. :)

A lot of my friends who have seen me play Eternal Sonata were like, "When they made this, were they on drugs?", but  I kind of like I because it's weird. Unique games can be hard to find.

I think Kuroshitsuji will still be popular. I have a lot of friends who are still talking about it. Also, since it's ended, you might get a lot of customers wanting to fill the "Oh no! My favorite series is over. What do I do now?" void.

I'm wondering if Naruto fanart will still be popular. It seems that Naruto isn't "cool" anymore... or maybe this is just me. I didn't see as many Naruto cosplayers at Fanime 2011 as I did during the previous couple of years.

My definition of close isn't the same as everyone's definition, but there's an Office Max in San Jose that's about 2.5 miles from the convention center - in other words, close enough to drive to during a lunch break. I'm fortunate enough to have a minion (my mom) who can run some errands for me, assuming that she's allowed to leave the table at all. I don't know how strict they'll be about the whole "minors must be accompanied by a parent/guardian at all times" thing.
There's also an Office Max that's about 5 minutes from my house that I can stop by on my way to or from the convention. I live close enough to Fanime to make staying in a hotel kind of pointless.

If you haven't gotten prints made yet, I really recommend Office Max. The staff are fairly helpful, and the quality is really good. The colors were nice and accurate. Also, it's inexpensive. 8.5x11 prints on glossy paper are around 70 cents each, I believe. They also do 11x17, legal size (8.5x14), and two sizes of postcards.

I love my friends. They're basically typical anime fans, so they're a good indication of whether or not something will sell well. I show them some art, and if they like it, then several other people will probably like it enough to buy it. The only downside is that my friends keep begging me for free art. >.<

I actually check out deviant art to see if something is popular. If I notice that something has a lot of fanart, I'll look it up and see if it's good. I'm a bit slow to pick up on trends, though, so usually, someone will tell me, "Hey, this series is good. Go watch it".

This thread has totally moved off topic. Please move conversations to other appropriate threads or personal messages.

Ok well I finally got an email from the staff. The details of the fanart policy are still being sorted out since they do agree that craft-type fanarts are a different thing entirely. I'm not sure when it'll be finalized, but at least he calmed my nerves and assured me that I my table registration is not in jeopardy since this matter is out of my control.  :)

At least people are getting emails saying you can't sell this or that. I have yet to receive an email. And I have emailed Fanime asking what is up. I just want to know if I have gotten in or not. If not, fine just let me know. Initial the computer system let me in, then I was waitlisted close to the top then the number kept getting further from the top. So I have no idea what number I am on the waitlist OR if I am even on the list any more. As far as people getting emails saying that can't sell certain items, that's understandable. But don't bill your artist alley signups as first come first served. It's juried. Yes, I understand that Fanime has to review artist's work no matter what kind of signup system they have but if they are going to be super strict on the gray area of Fanart then tell us so. That would allow us time to make sure we have original work posted on our websites or created. My best seller's are fanart images so that is what I have posted. If I need to sell only original work or a mix, tell me so and I will post images that reflect that. Give us the information ahead of time so we can be compliant with your rules. It will save time on your end Fanime and make for happier artists.
Sincerely,
Left completely in the dark and frustrated with Fanime

I actually got a reply from Fanime about the waitlist - apparently it was bugging out so they removed it. I can say they did get past the 30s in the waitlist - but if you were in the 50's or higher, I think your chances of getting in are kind of low.

On topic - I had my plushie rejected too. He was a Moogle that was hollow so you could use him as a bag. It's the only thing of mine that was turned down though, and I can understand the issue with crafts and especially plushies. I think they just look too similar to official merchandise, even if your particular article is not the exact same or a character that is actively made.

I was actually at #1 on the waitlist before it started going crazy. And I haven't a single thing from Fanime. I just want them to be honest with me if I got in or not. If I can't sell certain items, ok, I won't. But don't ignore me. I just think they are being reactive instead of proactive. Don't release the artist contract just before signups with the rules (which are pretty general) then have the signup be first come first served. And if you are going to be sticklers with the grey area of fanart (which they haven't in the past), let us know ahead of time so we CAN comply.

I apologize if this gets long, but it seems as if nobody has really considered the other side of this argument (which I am guessing the alley staff are considering and what has started this action in the first place).  I do NOT speak for alley staff and I am not directing any of my comments at any particular posters here.

As some have stated before, the actions against fanart are likely based upon legal issues.  I would guess this is primarily coming down from dealers who are tired of having to compete against the art alley and its grey market.  Having acquired and selling officially licensed materials, they are well within their legal rights to demand such limitations be placed on the art alley and I am sure the staff are working hard to come up with an acceptable "middle ground."  Please do not forget that the alley itself is an accommodation provided by the convention and can just as easily be retracted.  If nothing else, you can always get a table in the dealers room and enjoy the same protection and restrictions they enforce.

Secondly, I do feel that the artist alley has slowly built up a sense of greed and lack of etiquette in some artists and I have a proposal.  With many artists simply using fanart to cater to fans despite the obvious legalities to garner the most monies, I propose a profit cutoff scheme.  If an artist is profiting more than double the cost of the table (based on current fanime/AX prices or perhaps just the dealer table fees) then they graduate from artist alley and may only purchase dealer hall tables from that point on.  The alley is meant to help promote new artists and ideas, not earn a living (especially when it is primarily done through copyright infringement).  If an artist is just interested in making money then let them compete on a level field with all the other dealers.  Having been an artist in the alley for nearly 7 years now, I have never gone looking to make a profit (only recovered the cost of the table once) and usually share my table to help promote others and am more than happy when people appreciate my art whether or not they buy anything.

Finally, I would not be against the banning of fanart entirely.  This isn't to say I don't want any, just that if the alley staff decides to go that path then I am wholeheartedly behind their decision.  I will admit to being one of the few people who love to stroll the alley looking at not WHAT people draw, but HOW.  I don't care about the 15th print of Sasuke with a frown or smile...  I want to appreciate your artwork and skill, not what you drew to cater to others.  These past few years I have hardly purchased anything in the alley because many are following the masses in both style and subject.  A ban on fanart would force artists to actually care about not only what they are drawing but how it is perceived.  The argument that it doesn't sell is a lazy one.  Are you truly afraid that without following the crowd that you cannot come up with something that somebody out there will enjoy?  If so, then I ask why are you an artist?  Yes that might be harsh, but if you want a career in art this is something you will need to work out for yourself.  If you are an art hobbyist like myself then please just consider this a challenge to not only improve your skills but find fans that truly enjoy your work for what YOU put into it.  I personally believe a ban on fanart will bring out a huge change to the alley and I would be extremely excited to walk around and see what everybody has come up with.  I would probably be stopping at every table to not only see the art, but converse about the originality of ideas and most likely spend a whole lot more money than I should...  With that said, I would also understand that with registration already started that such a policy might be best suited to next year.

Heck, lemme just end this with a challenge.  If there is no outright ban on fanart, I challenge the artists of the ally to wow me with something completely original.  If you can do this, I will help promote your table and donate to your table cost (outside of anything I am bound to purchase from you).  I'm not a rich man, but I'm willing to put my money on the table to show that I'm not joking nor looking for a soapbox.

Not gonna quote that, cause it's so long, but...

You say 'catering to customers' a lot. I think that the artists in the artist alley mainly draw what they like, not just what's popular. If anything, they are catering to themselves. For example, this is indeed an anime convention, yet about 99% of the pieces I will be selling have to do with video games and other non-anime related things. Just because someone is doing fanart doesn't mean they're just doing it for money. That's what they like to do.

Also, the Dealer's Hall isn't for art, it's for merchandise. We couldn't sell our drawings or handmade crafts in there, because that's not what it's for. Even the bigger names like SNAFU-Comics and Shark Robot are in the artist Alley, because it's original artwork, not an officially licensed product.

It seems to me that the various emails that people have received have said nothing about fanart on paper... they're specifically targeting the craft artists, which is what makes me nervous.  Now, I'm 90% an original artist, but because I got REAL tired of people walking up to my table, asking me if I have such and such character... and when I tell them that it's all original, getting a disgusted look on their face and walking off.  So I swallowed my pride introduced a few pieces of fanart, telling myself that I wasn't totally selling out as long as they were of my favorite characters.  But here's the thing, I personally never buy paper art.  That stuff just sits in a drawer, gathering dust.  I pretty much only buy useful art, so I turned everything into badges, buttons, tiny charms, magnets, etc.  To think that something is fine as long as it's on paper, but suddenly NOT fine when it's on a button, that smacks of a certain unfairness to me.

@studiomusou

Just saying, dealer's hall spaces are at least $650. Artist alley tables are $75. That means, in order to "graduate" from the artist alley, I'd need to make $150. I made $150 at a small con (2,000 guests - approx. 1/10th of fanime) in less than a day. Therefore, it's almost impossible not to "graduate" into the dealer's hall after one year. All these artists would:
1) Be forced to spend anywhere from $650 to $950 on a ton of space that they don't need or want.
2) Push out the dealers, resulting in a shortage of anime merchandise at the con and many unhappy fans.
Therefore, this "graduation" suggestion hurts everyone: the artists, the dealers, the convention, and, most importantly, the fans.

Second, the whole, "fanart is bad because artists work less and make more money" complaint is based on the assumption that fans have no knowledge of art skills and will buy something even if it is drawn terribly. This isn't true. Even my most un artistic friends will buy art from the artists with the best skills and avoid the ones that aren't very good. Therefore, original art and fanart require relatively similar amounts of technical skill to appeal to audiences, and fanart shouldn't really be looked down on.

Also, almost every artist who draws fanart will say that they draw fanart because they like the character, not because they want to cater to the fans. I sell stuff because I like it and I want to share my interests with others. Absolutely, I care about my skill. I want to make high quality art for my potential customers. However, I also care that I sell something that is likable and relavant. While I take pride in my original art, and I think that people would at least enjoy looking at it, I would bring very little of it to a con because I like to sell fanart. It isn't about money. I just think that selling my original art would be kind of boring because I can connect with more people through fanart.

Finally, when did wanting to make a profit become a sin? The artist alley is a business, after all, and while I care about the exposure and the fun and the socializing, I would also like to walk away with a little bit of pocket money. Does this make me less of an artist? No. I still had to produce good art in order to make that money.

I have met really amazing professional artists who sell at numerous artist alleys, and they make part of their living that way. They are incredibly nice, respectable people, and I think they would feel a little insulted by some of your statements. In my opinion, the artist alley should be for anyone who wants a table, well-established or not. It's just plain wrong to kick people out because they are successful. Their success doesn't hurt anyone (I was right next to an amazing professional artist at animation on display, and I still made quite a lot of profit), so why should we exclude them? Yes, they could get a table in the dealer's hall if they wanted to, but they don't want to. It doesn't make them greedy or selfish that they pay several hundred dollars less than the dealers; it just means they they are smart businesspeople.

Quote from: studiomusou on March 13, 2012, 07:23:19 PM
A ban on fanart would force artists to actually care about not only what they are drawing but how it is perceived.  The argument that it doesn't sell is a lazy one.  Are you truly afraid that without following the crowd that you cannot come up with something that somebody out there will enjoy?  If so, then I ask why are you an artist?  Yes that might be harsh, but if you want a career in art this is something you will need to work out for yourself.  If you are an art hobbyist like myself then please just consider this a challenge to not only improve your skills but find fans that truly enjoy your work for what YOU put into it.  I personally believe a ban on fanart will bring out a huge change to the alley and I would be extremely excited to walk around and see what everybody has come up with.  I would probably be stopping at every table to not only see the art, but converse about the originality of ideas and most likely spend a whole lot more money than I should...  With that said, I would also understand that with registration already started that such a policy might be best suited to next year.

I totally agree with this! This is what I've been wanting to say this entire conversation, basically.

I understand that people should be able to make fan art and express their enthusiasm over copyrighted materials. But to me, Artist Alley has always been a great opportunity to look at other people's ORIGINAL art and show off my own. IMHO, it's one of the few ways that original art has equal footing with fanart. If you stick an original character on Deviantart, it won't get as many eyeballs as fanart. But in the Artist Alley, it has a slightly better chance!

I don't think fanart should be banned. But I think we should stop seeing limits on fan art as, well, limiting (lol) and instead start seeing it as an opportunity to show off more of our original art.

@studiomusou

I completely agree with Laggy and chibimonster.

Artists can't sell fanart in the dealer's hall and popular artists should not be "punished" by being asked to leave the alley because they make too much profit. Not all artists are greedy or simply out for profit. As chibimonster said, many just want to share their love of a character or make conversation with other fans. Sure there are some artists that don't care to make a profit, but I seriously believe this is just a minority. I mean really, how many of us want to go a con and only make enough to cover table costs? "Well, I still gotta pay for my hotel, for travel, for food, for my badge, for my prints, for my labor, but hey I made enough to cover my table so I did great!"  ;D I think I only remember hearing 1 person say that. Sure it's good to just get your art out there, but after a while of always ending up in the red, I think I would be pretty discouraged at selling. Heck, I don't think I could afford to sell at all. If I make enough to cover all my costs plus have a little extra to bring home and pay my taxes with, I'm a happy camper. I certainly wouldn't try to make a living from selling in the AA, but I want it to be profitable enough to keep me going. I like to have extra money to reinvest in my art and to travel more so I can get my art out there. I don't really want to be a starving artist.

And I would NEVER want fanart to banned. You said an artist alley is meant to promote new artists and ideas. Now why can't a new artist promote their new ideas through fanart? It does not take any less skill than an original artist. If anything, I think it takes more skill for an artist to take a character that is not their own and recreate into their own style or make an original interpretation of it. I am simply amazed by what some artists can do with fanart. The ideas can still be original regardless if the character is or is not. Also, a bad artist is still a bad artist regardless if they make fanart as well.

I think the challenge with original artists is simply getting your art out there and getting people to purchase it. Original artists in the alley usually have to work twice as hard to get people to come to their table to even look at there stuff. I visit quite a few of these artists and it's quite sad to hear how they have barely sold anything simply because their stuff is all originals. Then I never see them there again in the alley. This is not the fault of the fanart artists taking away their business. This is their choice in venue. This is an anime convention. People come here because of 1 reason: their love anime, games, and all these Japanese. Not too many people come here expecting to find "original" artists. They come for fanart. So of course you're going to have a harder time selling original art. Now that's not to say artists can't be successful selling original art here. Believe me, I went one year and sold nothing but original art and I nearly sold out. BUT, I think a big part was that I still catered to the style and theme of the convention. I still made art that I expected these types of people would be interested in seeing. If you completely miss the mark, good luck making your deposit back. And also, even though I sold all originals, I STILL had tons of people asking me for fanart. That's what people really wanted to see me make the most. If you are looking for art that is not influenced by anime, games, or Japanese culture or if you are looking to sell that type of art, an anime convention is NOT the place for you. You'd be better off trying to go to a nice craft fair or a special artist exhibit that really does promote your art.

Lastly, you challenge us to be "real artists," but despite the name for the venue, not everyone here is what you would to consider to be a "real artist." On the contrary, many of the of the artists are actually hobbyists. Not all of us are interested in making a career in art. In fact, some of the best artists have no intentions of pursuing a career in art. Rather, art is their hobby. They make art for the fun of it. They use art as an extra source of money, to help pay for school, and to simply to be around fans. I think a majority, if not all of these types of artists sell fanart for sure. Why? Not because they want to make a profit, but because art is their hobby and anime is their interest. Sometimes these artists also sells originals. Not because they want their art to be noticed, but because they enjoy making original characters.

If you want to make a career in art and plan to go to a con to sell your originals, I'm assuming that you are trying to get a career working in anime, gaming, or any other Japan-inspired job. If that's the case, then I am rooting for you all the way.   ;) That's the best place for you to be noticed by those types of companies. It won't be easy, but you're on the right track. However, if you're looking for a career in art and have no interest in pursuing those types of jobs or are looking to promote your art that is truly original, why are you wasting your time selling at an anime convention? Put your money to good use and look for a proper venue to promote your art. I'm sure there are plenty out there.

Remember, Fanime was made for fans of anime and everything related to it. That's what people come here for. That's what people want to see. Let's try to keep the "fan" in fanart and Fanime.

That's my 5 cents. Keep the change.  ;D Sorry for the lengthy post.

Quote from: nurikowindchaser on March 13, 2012, 09:36:55 PM
It seems to me that the various emails that people have received have said nothing about fanart on paper... they're specifically targeting the craft artists, which is what makes me nervous.  Now, I'm 90% an original artist, but because I got REAL tired of people walking up to my table, asking me if I have such and such character... and when I tell them that it's all original, getting a disgusted look on their face and walking off.  So I swallowed my pride introduced a few pieces of fanart, telling myself that I wasn't totally selling out as long as they were of my favorite characters.  But here's the thing, I personally never buy paper art.  That stuff just sits in a drawer, gathering dust.  I pretty much only buy useful art, so I turned everything into badges, buttons, tiny charms, magnets, etc.  To think that something is fine as long as it's on paper, but suddenly NOT fine when it's on a button, that smacks of a certain unfairness to me.

This is the whole reason why I started this topic. I do feel like the crafts and non-paper artists are being singled-out when it comes to fanart. I don't see why we can't sell fanart simply because our's does not come printed on paper? There are millions of paper fanarts out there, but there are less fancraft artists out there.

I believe that fanart should not be judged by the choice of its form, but by the creativity of the artist.

.....had a Martin Luther King Jr. moment there....

@Lil Moon: I agree that non-paper crafts shouldn't be singled out, but I think most of the crafts found in artist alley tend to compete with licensed material (simply because the materials are cheap and easily available).  If you are doing a craft not officially available then I applaud you and hope it doesn't get banned/restricted.

@Lil Moon/Laggy/Chibimonster: First I want to say that I wasn't singling any particular person out so don't take any of what I said personally.  Not everybody is out just for money and I can appreciate that.  Perhaps my wording was a bit harsh, but my argument that fan art is making art alleys worse is based simply on the legalities of the situation.  I understand that people are fans of a particular anime/game/show/etc. but there is a fine line between showing admiration and trying to cash in at another's expense.  You must realize that if you are trying to make a living from your fanart sales then you are no different from a forger.  That said, I am only aiming this at those that are blind to the ethics of this situation.  If you feel this doesn't apply to you then I have no issue with you and happily look forward to seeing you at the con.

The proposal for "graduation" is based upon pure profit.  This means that you cleared about $200 AFTER you subtract all material costs, labor, table costs, reg costs, hotel and transportation, and any other con costs you endure.  Also, the price I threw out was a generic example and not meant to be taken literally.  If the cost of a dealer table is $650 then the graduation point would probably be more like $800.  The argument that this would crowd the dealers hall is simply false.  The convention makes alot of money based on the dealers costs as well as their draw.  Most conventions would be more than willing to expand dealers rooms to make room for more if they can.  The argument that the dealers room isn't for art is also false.  What you are truly afraid of is the fact that if you "graduate" then you can no longer rely on fanart and that was the whole point of my proposal. 

@studiomusou -
While some of your arguments and proposals are a bit extreme and not exactly feasible in the anime AA setting, I'd just like you to know it was very refreshing and encouraging to hear your support of original work. Glad someone will be there caring about my skill level and the style I've been polishing for years rather than what kind of popular franchise I can crank out for some extra cash.

If it were a facebook post, I'd like it.  :P

@Tontos.Horse
Waitlist means that all of the AA tables were filled. If they put up the full room of tables with no waitlist hold backs, then that means they have to wait to see who doesn't pay/drops their table. Meaning they can't really say anything till closer to con or as people drop. If no one drops, then no waitlist people can get a spot (given prior situation is true).

I think I have an idea that fewer people will object to:

Since there are several video rooms that never seem to have a lot of people in them, why doesn't Fanime take one of the film rooms and instead make it into an "original art showcase" or something like that? It would be like an extension of the artist alley (we're in need of more tables anyway). People would still have to pay for their tables, submit examples of their work, etc. However, there would be a no fanart or  maybe a 10% only rule in place, so the artists there would get to show off their original work without having to worry about competition from fanart. Tables in the original art showcase should probably cost less than artist alley tables - more like $50. Also, there should be advertising in the program book and on stage zero and probably a few signs so that people know it's there.

And then, we keep the same rules in the artist alley and everyone's happy.

Quote from: LiL Moon on March 14, 2012, 12:48:49 AM
This is not the fault of the fanart artists taking away their business. This is their choice in venue. This is an anime convention. People come here because of 1 reason: their love anime, games, and all these Japanese. Not too many people come here expecting to find "original" artists. They come for fanart. So of course you're going to have a harder time selling original art. Now that's not to say artists can't be successful selling original art here. Believe me, I went one year and sold nothing but original art and I nearly sold out. BUT, I think a big part was that I still catered to the style and theme of the convention. I still made art that I expected these types of people would be interested in seeing. If you completely miss the mark, good luck making your deposit back. And also, even though I sold all originals, I STILL had tons of people asking me for fanart. That's what people really wanted to see me make the most. If you are looking for art that is not influenced by anime, games, or Japanese culture or if you are looking to sell that type of art, an anime convention is NOT the place for you. You'd be better off trying to go to a nice craft fair or a special artist exhibit that really does promote your art.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

I feel like this paragraph was written with the idea that original art won't be in anime/manga style and has nothing to do with this con, which is kind of a weird assumption to make. If we're going to an anime convention, doesn't that already mean that we like anime ?____? And/or that our art is influenced by it?

I also don't think it's a good suggestion to take our original art to a nice craft fair or special art exhibit, because practically everyone else in the art community looks down on anime/manga style art. Artist alleys in anime conventions are some of the only places I'd feel welcome!

Overall, I really disagree with this idea that fan art is THE BIGGEST REASON that the Artist Alley exists. IMHO, the reason it's there is for us to showcase our anime-influenced art, whether it's original or not. I don't think that fan art should be banned, but I do support lightweight limitations on it if it will encourage original art.

Also, an idea: What if we made a 50/50 or 70/30 rule for booths instead of for individual artists? That way, if an artist only wanted to do fan art, they'd just have to find someone else who only wants to do original.

Quote from: octorok on March 14, 2012, 05:40:43 PM
Also, an idea: What if we made a 50/50 or 70/30 rule for booths instead of for individual artists? That way, if an artist only wanted to do fan art, they'd just have to find someone else who only wants to do original.

The only problem is that some people, such as minors or those with a TON of merchandise, might have trouble sharing a table. Since minors have to have a parent/guardian with them at all times, this leaves no room to share without resorting to demented artist alley musical chairs. For artists who have a ton of merchandise, they would have to find another artist with a ton of merchandise in order to make things balance out. At that point, all that stuff wouldn't fit at one table.

@ octorok

I think you might need to re-read my post again because I wasn't making the points that you came up with. O.o? I said that it is possible for people to do well selling originals in the AA and I did encourage artists who have an original style that is influenced by anime or Japanese culture to continue to sell in AA.

I am speaking more about those who have art that have nothing to do with anime or Japanese culture. There are a few artists I see every now and again that are just completely out of place there. I saw some at AX, but darn, I can't remember what it was they sold for an example. But these types of people are ones who should look for a more proper venue. I think one guy was selling sunglasses. Not anime-themed sun glasses, but ones you can buy at like Walmart or something. XD

Even though you disagree, I still believe fanart plays a big role in the artist alley, but I am certainly not discouraging those who want to make original art. I just don't want people to look down on those who choose to make fanart. Often we are either thought of as bandwagon jumpers or greedy business people with absolutely no creativity or skill in art. Though there are a few out there with the mentality, it's just a minority. We should not be judged just because we make fanart and we should not assume that making fanart limits our abilities as artists.

It's not the style that sells, it's the skills. If you are that unhappy with rules that come up, don't participate. It's really as simple as that. No one is forcing you to participate. No matter what they do, someone's going to unhappy.

@ studiomusou

I understand your concerns about the legalities of selling fanart. I just think that there does seem to be a bias on the forms of art. Yeah, crafts are a strong point for legal matters since there is merchandise made by companies, but I think the same could be said for prints as well. Of course, that's why there are rules not to copy or trace for prints. But there are posters and other merchandise that use prints so I wonder if the same legalities could be said just like for crafts? I do take care not to copy official merchandise just like print artists and I do like to make originals or items that can't be bought in stores. So I don't like to be treated like I am trying to steal from a company when I try my hardest to be as unique as possible. T.T Believe me, even I would feel bad if I only made fanart since I do understand that it's not good to piggyback off of someone's ideas on everything.

I think no matter how many times you suggest the "graduation" idea, I'd still be against it. I think your idea works in only one situation and that's when the artist only sells originals. I know lots of artists who have graduated to being dealers because they are making merchandise through mass production and licensing just like the other dealers. And I am so proud of them. I wish I could be like them. But then, there are those other artists. >.> ...Those that mass produce fanart. I mean, those people seem to go against all your ideals. These are the people who make fanart for profit. I think graduating them only allows them the satisfaction that they are taking advantage of people and fanart. I don't think I have ever seen a dealer that sells both fanart and originals. I wish I could be one, but I can't. It's not because I am afraid. It's not because I don't make enough money. It's because, at the moment, I am an artist. I want to be in the alley. I don't feel I should move on even if I make more than enough. Maybe someday I will move on, but right now, I am an artist, not a dealer. I think if I did move on, I'd go with your route though of only making originals. Btw, I don't know if you know, but those artists that regularly sell in the dealers hall sell in the artist alley at Fanime because they are not allowed on the dealers hall. XD But at Anime Expo, they have at least 3-4 booths with nothing but mass produced fanart.

Quote from: jAded on March 14, 2012, 07:06:56 PM
It's not the style that sells, it's the skills. If you are that unhappy with rules that come up, don't participate. It's really as simple as that. No one is forcing you to participate. No matter what they do, someone's going to unhappy.

A style is a skill. XD In my book at least. And yeah, if I didn't like the rules, I wouldn't have signed up. But, the rules were not clearly defined. So you can't blame me for wondering about some rules that were brought up after the fact.

Quote from: studiomusou on March 13, 2012, 07:23:19 PM
Secondly, I do feel that the artist alley has slowly built up a sense of greed and lack of etiquette in some artists and I have a proposal.  With many artists simply using fanart to cater to fans despite the obvious legalities to garner the most monies, I propose a profit cutoff scheme.  If an artist is profiting more than double the cost of the table (based on current fanime/AX prices or perhaps just the dealer table fees) then they graduate from artist alley and may only purchase dealer hall tables from that point on.  The alley is meant to help promote new artists and ideas, not earn a living (especially when it is primarily done through copyright infringement).  If an artist is just interested in making money then let them compete on a level field with all the other dealers. 

I agree with a lot of your post - but definitely NOT this portion, for a few reasons:

1) There ARE artists who go to artist alleys and do commissions/sell prints as a living - and I don't see why this shouldn't be okay. In fact, I think this should be encouraged. It's difficult to make it as an artist - any kind of artist - and that there are places like conventions, flea markets, etc, that allow artists to rent a space for cheap is important to the art community as a whole. There's a sense of equality in the AA that prevents the idea of competing for profits. For one, you have the same space, and your art could be to one person's taste but not to another. Art is so subjective, how do you determine something like unfair profiteering because someone is either "better" at it or caters to a specific audience? That's not unfair, and you can't prove someone is doing it purely for profit.

2) If you judge the amount of profit you make only by the cost of renting the table - you're missing out completely on the costs of supplies and labor. For example, I make corsets. I may sell one corset from between 45$-400$. However, it takes 20-40 hours of labor to make a corset, and the base cost of supplies is around 65$. By your standards, if I sold just one corset, I'd have to move to the dealers room.

3) There is a strong difference in selling art of your own creation and selling merchandise. The business acumen is completely different, as is the amount of labor involved in the creation of the product. On one end, you create the product from conception to physical form. On the other, you play economics and purchase the items created by others. Not that you can't self produce, but the idea is that in the dealer's room, this is a place where the intention is sales of mass quantities of merchandise, much of which is not necessarily acquired or created by yourself.


I completely disagree with the idea that someone who is successful needs to leave the AA because they are doing better than others - that feels like a punishment rather than a graduation (hey you're doing well here, but that's not fair to others because they're not doing as well as you, so lets throw you in a venue where you can't compete without several hundred dollars of investment in space and product and if you fail, well, that's just too bad). I just feel that if you're not doing so well, maybe it's not because there's heavy competition, or because of fan art - it's because that artist is just not that good, or selected bad pieces, or the quality of their prints/buttons/bookmarks/keychains is crap. Hard truth for someone who doesn't do well, but I think we should consider personal failures before blaming others for an artist's lack of success.

Quote from: studiomusou on March 14, 2012, 12:52:48 PM
@Lil Moon: I agree that non-paper crafts shouldn't be singled out, but I think most of the crafts found in artist alley tend to compete with licensed material (simply because the materials are cheap and easily available).  If you are doing a craft not officially available then I applaud you and hope it doesn't get banned/restricted.

I... don't agree with the cheap and easy statement at all when it comes to crafts.  A hand made plushy, just for the artist to make any profit at all for the materials and time involved, sell for around $40-$60... and that's not even if it's a truly intricate piece of work.  I once purchased a hand-made dragon plushy for $130.  Dealers can sell factory-made plushies for $15 because they were made by the thousands by wage-slaves in third-world countries.  That is really what craft artists are competing with, the fact that we can only make things in very small batches or as completely original works, but have to price to compete with a world used to buying stuff from Walmart.  Even little buttons, which can be printed in slight bulk for not too much isn't going to get you anywhere near the profit margin of doing a bunch of prints on paper that you sell for $10-$20.  I think the profit I make on each button is about $1, given that I only print fifty at a time. When I still did prints, the profit I made on each one was $5... and it was only that low because I printed them at home rather than using a printer to print in real bulk.

I agree that craft artists shouldn't re-make already available licensed products... but how many do you think really do that?  I always loved artists alleys because there was the option of getting stuff that isn't the popular "flavor of the month."  Those of us who like stuff that isn't Naruto or Hetalia can actually find something to buy.  :P

Quote from: LiL Moon on March 14, 2012, 06:58:20 PM
@ octorok

I think you might need to re-read my post again because I wasn't making the points that you came up with. O.o? I said that it is possible for people to do well selling originals in the AA and I did encourage artists who have an original style that is influenced by anime or Japanese culture to continue to sell in AA.

I am speaking more about those who have art that have nothing to do with anime or Japanese culture. There are a few artists I see every now and again that are just completely out of place there. I saw some at AX, but darn, I can't remember what it was they sold for an example. But these types of people are ones who should look for a more proper venue. I think one guy was selling sunglasses. Not anime-themed sun glasses, but ones you can buy at like Walmart or something. XD

Even though you disagree, I still believe fanart plays a big role in the artist alley, but I am certainly not discouraging those who want to make original art. I just don't want people to look down on those who choose to make fanart. Often we are either thought of as bandwagon jumpers or greedy business people with absolutely no creativity or skill in art. Though there are a few out there with the mentality, it's just a minority. We should not be judged just because we make fanart and we should not assume that making fanart limits our abilities as artists.

Ahh, you're right, I did miss that distinction between anime-influenced original artists and unrelated original artists. But now that I see it... why does it matter? ?____? Sure, some people probably bring things that are completely outlandish, but MOST people bringing their original art to Fanime are probably influenced by anime or Japanese culture. I don't think the sunglasses guy is coming to this forum to complain about fan art, lol.

I agree that fan art plays a big role in the Artist Alley, I just don't think it takes precedent over original art (nor vice versa). It sucks that people think you are greedy bandwagon jumpers etc etc, but I really don't think that would be the motive behind any fanart limits. In my eyes, it isn't trying to persecute fanart as much as it is trying to help original art.

@ octorok

Well, why doesn't it matter? I'm just looking out for those who really are trying to sell original art, but are sad when no one buys from them. Maybe they need to rethink about what they are selling and where they are selling. I do remember now. There was a guy selling found object sculptures in the alley. Now, none of his sculptures seemed to fit at an anime con so I'm suggesting that instead of wasting his money selling there, he should have tried to find some place where his art could really shine.

Whether fanart takes precendence over original art, I think that's for the fans to decide. Many like fanart and many like originals. You're right that limits on fanart is not intended to persecute it. Rather, it's all in the legal issues. But I don't believe it necessarily helps original art either. I think that could also vary from artist to artist and from con to con. Personally, I feel original art limits me. I can crank originals out pretty easy, but when I want a challenge, I make fanart. I can make any cute original plushies, but I need lots of practice to bring an original character out from the 2D world into 3D. And still be able to get the correct amount of detail and proportions. Or try to come up with a new way to present it. That's just my instance though.

I'd rather not continue debating on it though as I know how strongly you feel about originals as I do with fanart. Plus my fingers hurt from typing. ^^;;; So I rather just agree to disagree. I will be selling originals this year though. But my spending money will likely go to fanarts.

Quote from: nurikowindchaser on March 14, 2012, 08:56:12 PM
I... don't agree with the cheap and easy statement at all when it comes to crafts.  A hand made plushy, just for the artist to make any profit at all for the materials and time involved, sell for around $40-$60... and that's not even if it's a truly intricate piece of work.  I once purchased a hand-made dragon plushy for $130.  Dealers can sell factory-made plushies for $15 because they were made by the thousands by wage-slaves in third-world countries.  That is really what craft artists are competing with, the fact that we can only make things in very small batches or as completely original works, but have to price to compete with a world used to buying stuff from Walmart.  Even little buttons, which can be printed in slight bulk for not too much isn't going to get you anywhere near the profit margin of doing a bunch of prints on paper that you sell for $10-$20.  I think the profit I make on each button is about $1, given that I only print fifty at a time. When I still did prints, the profit I made on each one was $5... and it was only that low because I printed them at home rather than using a printer to print in real bulk.

I agree that craft artists shouldn't re-make already available licensed products... but how many do you think really do that?  I always loved artists alleys because there was the option of getting stuff that isn't the popular "flavor of the month."  Those of us who like stuff that isn't Naruto or Hetalia can actually find something to buy.  :P

I agree. Plushies are not cheap. But the China ones are.  ;D Seriously, those things fall apart by the time I get home. I appreciate the crafter's work and don't mind paying extra for something hand-made. I doubt crafters could ever compete with companies. Not at the speed they mass produce stuff.  So, are we really that much of a threat?

Quote from: chibimonster on March 14, 2012, 06:21:41 PM

Quote from: octorok on March 14, 2012, 05:40:43 PM
Also, an idea: What if we made a 50/50 or 70/30 rule for booths instead of for individual artists? That way, if an artist only wanted to do fan art, they'd just have to find someone else who only wants to do original.

The only problem is that some people, such as minors or those with a TON of merchandise, might have trouble sharing a table. Since minors have to have a parent/guardian with them at all times, this leaves no room to share without resorting to demented artist alley musical chairs. For artists who have a ton of merchandise, they would have to find another artist with a ton of merchandise in order to make things balance out. At that point, all that stuff wouldn't fit at one table.

Ahh, I hadn't thought of that )x

@Cole
I know how a wait list works. If you bothered to read my post you would have seen where I stated that I was approved then wait listed with my number going backward from #1. And yes I know they had computer issues that caused that. My point was that I haven't heard from Fanime re: Anything! I don't know if they have issues w/ my crafts. I don't know what # I am on the wait list ( it was #6 before the website reg. was closed). And people who are crafters stated they were #15 or so on the wait list were approved for a table but received an email stating they couldn't sell certain images. I have emailed and posted on th AA Facebook forum starting Mar. 4 & have yet to hear anything.
So please the next time you get an urge to "explain" how something works, do yourself a favor and read the person's posts before you comment. You just end up looking ignorant and rude.

Quote from: Tontos.Horse on March 15, 2012, 01:49:39 AM
@Cole
I know how a wait list works. If you bothered to read my post you would have seen where I stated that I was approved then wait listed with my number going backward from #1. And yes I know they had computer issues that caused that. My point was that I haven't heard from Fanime re: Anything! I don't know if they have issues w/ my crafts. I don't know what # I am on the wait list ( it was #6 before the website reg. was closed). And people who are crafters stated they were #15 or so on the wait list were approved for a table but received an email stating they couldn't sell certain images. I have emailed and posted on th AA Facebook forum starting Mar. 4 & have yet to hear anything.
So please the next time you get an urge to "explain" how something works, do yourself a favor and read the person's posts before you comment. You just end up looking ignorant and rude.

Please refrain from attacking each other. I know that you're upset and frustrated, but our staff is trying the best they can to clear out their backlog of the waitlist + e-mails.

They will eventually get to your e-mail and respond.

I was stating my opinion especially of a troller that has over 85 posts on the forum with either ignorant statements or inane questions. But typical Fanime, if your AA table signups are really first come first served and I was wait listed as #1 or #6 I should have been dealt with by now. I'm done with the basic lack of organization and BS. As the late, great Whitney Houston said, "Kiss my ass!"

Quote from: Tontos.Horse on March 15, 2012, 02:20:05 AMI was stating my opinion especially of a troller that has over 85 posts on the forum with either ignorant statements or inane questions. But typical Fanime, if your AA table signups are really first come first served and I was wait listed as #1 or #6 I should have been dealt with by now. I'm done with the basic lack of organization and BS. As the late, great Whitney Houston said, "Kiss my ass!"

I haven't really said anything to you to warrant your behavior or response. I can guarantee that our staff is working as hard as they can to ensure that everything is done in a fair manner, but I'm not sure that anything I can say will please you except if I were to get you a table (which wouldn't be fair).

Not to suggest you should spam them, but have you send a follow-up e-mail? I had one e-mail that went without a response for 4-5 days, so I sent another and got that one responded to fairly quickly.

Edit: deciding to take down much of my post sense I probably have a 50/50 shot at being attacked and really I what I'm looking for most is an answer.

Putting aside if Fanart is right or wrong to sell at Fanime what I'm really looking for is some official statement to make this all clear.  As people have been stating time and time again in here 90%+ of the stuff sold in AA is Fanart.  There have been statements of a few emails but with 300+ artists attending I all I can think of is this nightmare of being hundreds of artists being thrown out onto their butts.  With less then 3 months to Fanime and things unclear we need answers.

P.S. Lil_moon.  I'm sorry if this has already been stated in another post, the thread has been going on for awhile now and I dont remember.  Did they say all plushies or certain ones?  I looked at your gallery and saw the MLP plushies which I think look fantastic, the kind of quality sold in real store from the companies.  Maybe that is what they are worried about?

I'm pretty sure they aren't going to switch up the rules for this year. Like you said, there are less than 3 months to go. All the arguments we had about the 50/50 rule were in the context that it would possibly be implemented next year. At least, this is my assumption.

Actually we are formulating and getting approval for the appropriate interpretation of the rules that will be applied to the AA. What is taking so long is that this is clearly a sensitive issue and are balancing all the aspects to ensure there is a viable solution that will be applied to the room.

 @ ewu: Does this mean that the 50/50 rule would possibly apply to this year? Because that would mean I have a whole lot of original art to work on.

Quote from: chibimonster on March 16, 2012, 09:31:08 PM
@ ewu: Does this mean that the 50/50 rule would possibly apply to this year? Because that would mean I have a whole lot of original art to work on.

I honestly hope not.  Dont know if I could do that much original in time, at least high quality stuff to sell.

Quote from: chibimonster on March 16, 2012, 09:31:08 PM@ ewu: Does this mean that the 50/50 rule would possibly apply to this year? Because that would mean I have a whole lot of original art to work on.

I've reskimmed the pages and I think that I'm the only staffer that's actually mentioned the 50/50 rule (please correct me if I'm wrong). When I pointed out the 50/50 rule, I was using it as an example of how difficult it is for conventions to make rules that everyone will agree is fair. Every rule change from % of fanart to cost of table always incurs a strong wave of negative comments. :(

Quote from: MPLe on March 17, 2012, 10:44:43 AM

Quote from: chibimonster on March 16, 2012, 09:31:08 PM@ ewu: Does this mean that the 50/50 rule would possibly apply to this year? Because that would mean I have a whole lot of original art to work on.

I've reskimmed the pages and I think that I'm the only staffer that's actually mentioned the 50/50 rule (please correct me if I'm wrong). When I pointed out the 50/50 rule, I was using it as an example of how difficult it is for conventions to make rules that everyone will agree is fair. Every rule change from % of fanart to cost of table always incurs a strong wave of negative comments. :(

Understandable.  Like the people that dont like the table prices which I think is cheap compared to other cons.  For me it's the fact that there is only about 10 weeks (uuuuuuuuuugh) left till Fanime.

Quote from: MPLe on March 17, 2012, 10:44:43 AM
I've reskimmed the pages and I think that I'm the only staffer that's actually mentioned the 50/50 rule (please correct me if I'm wrong). When I pointed out the 50/50 rule, I was using it as an example of how difficult it is for conventions to make rules that everyone will agree is fair. Every rule change from % of fanart to cost of table always incurs a strong wave of negative comments. :(

I find it funny that everyone blew the whole thing out of proportion. *facepalm*

From the terms and conditions we had to sign -
"4. Artists may offer the following merchandise:
b. Fan art clearly showing the artist's work being produced and not intended to replicate the original style or the official likeness of a work held by the license holder."

So If you did like a "chibi" MLP plush it would probably be fine, but a realistic to character design MLP plush was probably what they didnt like.

@ Oniko- I did answer this question, but the answer the staff member gave me was pretty broad. He listed a few of the plushies that I could not sell and said etc so I'm assuming he meant no fanart plushies what so ever.

I understand what you mean about the quality of my plushies. I seriously take it as a compliment, but I feel like I am being punished because I choose to make a high quality plushie. A friend of mine was not told not to sell her MLP plushies and I believe her's are up to par with my skill so I don't know why she was not given the same information? Some of my plushies are also chibis or different versions that don't look like the characters that much and I wasn't given an answer as to if those were ok?

You could argue that my plushies might compete with licensed merchandise or that they look too much like the character. But I work hard to do my research to make sure I am not making copies of an already existing plushie. As for the second half of my statement, I feel like I could argue that plushies DO clearly show my artist work being produced. A 2D artist can easily copy a 2D drawing, but taking a 2D drawing and turning it into a 3D product takes an artist to a whole different level. It is not easy trying to render a 2D character into a 3D model. I believe that that in itself shows my work being produced. There is no way to "copy" a 2D character for plushie artists unless we are copying an existing product...which is just wrong in itself. It's not easy to put a 2D artist and a 3D artist on the same level. As Ewu stated, there is a lot to consider and it can be pretty confusing. These are just all my opinions.

All I mainly want is for a uniform rule to be established (which the staff is already working on) and to be given a right to sell some fanart alongside the 2D artists. I don't mind if I end up being limited, but I don't feel all my fanart plushies should go to waste. I want to share at least some rights with the 2D artists.

@octorok.

There is proof to back up the fanart statement. A few years back, Otakon banned fanart from the Artist Alley. That year the convention, as well as the artists, suffered greatly because of it.
Since then they have chosen a different method. See their AA contract for details on that method as I am unsure of it and it is too difficult to check on my phone.

I think the easy way for Fanime to handle this situation is simple....just sell the exhibit space, just like every other convention.  After all the artist is liable for something that is copyrighted or bootlegged, not Fanime.  A lot of artist alleys and dealer's halls are really starting to get in the individual's business about what they sell and such.  I do not think anyone should be able to tell any artist wether or not what they sell (custom buttons, plushes, keychains, etc.) unless they are the license holder, or have direct proof that what the artist is selling is a bootleg or replica/licensed item.  I have several friends who sell buttons and plushes, totally their own patterns and designs, but based on licensed characters, that because they are fanart, are not permitted to sell in the AA.  Why doesn't Fanime just sell the tables as exhibit spaces (which is what they are selling to artists after all), and just make very straight forward clear cut rules about what can and can not be sold? Attendees love buying fanart in artist alleys too.

Quote from: reaver on March 20, 2012, 06:37:31 PMWhy doesn't Fanime just sell the tables as exhibit spaces (which is what they are selling to artists after all), and just make very straight forward clear cut rules about what can and can not be sold? Attendees love buying fanart in artist alleys too.

There are so many gray areas that clear cut rules tend to be difficult. Keep in mind that regardless of what rules change (for better or worse), discussions such as the ones in this thread will pop up.

Quote from: reaver on March 20, 2012, 06:37:31 PMA lot of artist alleys and dealer's halls are really starting to get in the individual's business about what they sell and such.

If we do end up selling the spaces as-is, keep in mind that this would make it so that we would be punishing our Dealers for paying more to sell their goods. What would be stopping them from shrinking the amount of merchandise they sell and claiming that they created it?

There is also the overall view that we (as convention staffers) have to show to copyright holders that are do make efforts to protect a company's licenses. If we didn't, companies would refuse to work with us and the overall trade off to letting artists/dealers sell whatever they want would be that no official company would want to work with us.



One of the things that I restate every year is that we're never going to please everyone and that no single person knows everything that goes on during a convention planning (cons also are run different from one another, too!). I assure you that we would love to only have one rule ("Be fair!"), but it would quickly be abused. This is why we (as staffers) work very hard to ensure that all rules are as fair as possible.

In the end, someone will hate whatever change is created/implemented/etc., someone will work on finding a loophole, and others will think that it is completely fair. This is why we do have various contact methods for you all to let us know what you think. I can personally vouch that we do get all feedback and deliver them (at least the ones that aren't completely outrageous) to the department/division heads that it is directed to.

Fanime can have whatever policies/procedures they want, that is their decision.  However they should NOT make one rule for one person and then another rule for another person.  That is where the staff is being horrendously unfair this year.  Yes someone will always dislike a rule here and there, you can't please everyone.  But at least the staff could say that they were fair and upheld the same standards for everyone.

As bad as it seems, I think the staff actually have to be "unfair". Art is a very subjective area, and it gets even worse when we venture into the legal gray area of fanart. There are no black and white rules regarding fanart, and I think it will be very hard to make them because every piece of art is different. Everything is basically left up to the admin's judgement. Artists draw in different styles, and admins may interpret styles differently. It's just the way things work.

I just looove hypothetical situations:
Say buttons are a big deal and the dealers might complain about them being sold in the artist alley. Staff then have to make sure that buttons are unique enough so that they do not compete with the merchandise in the dealer's hall.
Artist A and artist B both draw buttons of Naruto. Artist A does a lot of work and doesn't steal any existing work. Her style of drawing makes the Naruto on the button look similar to the actual manga. Artist B puts in the same amount of effort, but draws a chibi Naruto instead; the art on her button looks nothing like the art on the existing merchandise.
The staff review the art of artist A and artist B. They tell artist A that she can't sell her Naruto button, but they let artist B sell hers. Both of them drew non-stolen Naruto buttons, but only one of them was allowed to sell hers, simply because of a difference in style. It's these subjective judgements that cause the strange variations in rules; it's a case-by-case thing.

Art can't really be judged objectively because each work is unique and each artist has a different style. to throw them all to the same category would almost be an insult to the artists. We need to acknowledge the uniqueness of each artist, and, in order to do that, the rules must be interpreted somewhat subjectively. We need to take the good along with the bad, I think.

I'm happy to report that I finally got a reply from the staff about the rule on fanart plushies. We are allowed to make plushies of characters or items provided that there are no officially licensed versions of that plushie already being sold. While I wish I could sell all my plushies with no problems, I can deal with this rule. I mean, I think it's fair and understandable. If this rule were set prior to my questioning, it would explain why my friend was given the ok to sell her plushies as opposed to myself since she was making plushies of characters that were not officially made yet. I have a mix of both. So, in the example of My Little Pony plushies, the only ponies we can't sell are Pinkie Pie and Twilight Sparkle, but all the other ponies are ok. I must admit, it's gonna be odd having some characters missing from certain sets, but it's better than no character plushies at all.  :)

Thanks for letting us know! Is that only for plushies? I know some people have had questions regarding things like fanart on buttons and the like -- is there a ruling on those yet?

Quote from: ttyls on April 09, 2012, 11:50:37 AM
Thanks for letting us know! Is that only for plushies? I know some people have had questions regarding things like fanart on buttons and the like -- is there a ruling on those yet?

Your welcome. This rule is just for plushies. I'm not sure what the rules are for buttons and such.

Errrr.... skimming thread and only reading admin comments .... I hope the rules won't be drastically changed this year. I mean that the con is only a month and a half away. I've already done a bunch of prep work. ^^; And invested a bunch of money into inventory. When I put money down on an AA table, I'm expecting the policies I've read before buying the table will remain pretty much the same AFTER buying the table.

If you want to consider big changes for 2013, that's totally ok, I'll wait and read the policies for 2013 and then buy or not buy space accordingly.

Just putting that out there .... I consider my purchase of an AA table and my agreement to existing policies to be pretty much a contractual obligation on both of our parts. Changing the contract after I've signed it is in bad taste.

I do totally empathize with both sides of the fanart debate, and I'm super grateful to the admins here for putting thought into the issue. Just please don't change it up drastically right before the show. T____T If there's going to be big changes, isn't 2013 early enough to implement them?