Greetings again!
Hope your summer was fun. The Artist Alley group in Facebook has been renamed for 2012: https://www.facebook.com/groups/198025690228018/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/198025690228018/)
I'm posing a question I posted over there: Should artists be permitted to display their works facing behind and outside their table space? I'm real curious to read what you think because this issue seems to have split the artist community down the middle.
- Marc Dell'Erba
FanimeCon Artist Alley 2012
I think it's alright as long as the display doesn't interfere with the other artists :P
It's really rude. I understand the sentiment if it doesn't interfere with the artist behind you, however I really think it is dishonorable to
display artist work directly behind them where it will get confused with the artist who sits behind them. An artist should never have to direct and explain that artwork isn't theirs. I've heard many an artist who has had this happen to them get really frustrated that their con experience was half explaining and redirecting people away from their booth.
An artist really can't work with the space they are given? Those who fight for artwork being displayed directly behind them care about only one thing: Their visibility at the expense of the artist who sits directly behind them. It isn't cool and I think it's really crazy that people will defend this.
For artist that sit at corner tables, this is a way different scenario. Having displays on the side of their booths clearly doesn't interfere with the artist behind them. And as long as both parties are happy there isn't an issue.
I feel that as long as an artist asks and receives permission from their affected neighbor, artists are should be able to post where ever they want within their allotted space. (so long as it does not pose a threat to safety)
I can understand completely how having to explain constantly that the artwork posted behind you is not yours could be frustrating, but I feel that it is rather draconian to force everyone in the alley to only post forward and inward regardless of their situation. At AA 2011, the neighbors to my left were doing crochet work and had no artwork on sale. They said they enjoyed having my artwork posted facing their side and even helped try to convince the alley staff to allow me to keep my work posted on their side. At AA 2010, the neighbors to my left enjoyed having my artwork up because they did not have any of their own and reported that they actually got some traffic due to my pictures.
I would like to believe that people elsewhere are civil enough to respect each other and are mature enough to find middle grounds that they can all be satisfied with. I sincerely hope that, if logistically feasible, this can be left to AA tablers to handle on our own without staff intervention.
The only problem I see with the whole "just ask your neighbors for permission" scenario is that I think a lot of people would feel pressured to agree to it. I mean, it's your table neighbor. You're going to be stuck next to them all weekend. You might have to ask them to watch your booth, ask to borrow a print sleeve if you run out, all those sorts of things. Starting the weekend out on a sour note might not be something a lot of artists are willing to do.
I personally think it's easier if a clear rule is made against back displays in artists alleys. The front is plenty of space, and if it's not you can always purchase an additional table as many artists have before.
I don't believe that politely declining their request would sour the entire weekend. The decision to not allow your neighbor to post facing your side does not come from malice nor spite, so there shouldn't be any hard feelings on either side. I am still very hopeful that people can be mature enough to deal with this sort of situation without necessitating hard fast rules to unburden themselves from discussion with their neighbors.
I would like to believe that's true, too. I would also like to believe that no con attendees steal things off of Artist Alley tables and that everyone attending conventions are honest, straightforward and trustworthy-- but unfortunately this isn't the case. I can very easily envision a scenario in which someone asks for permission to display their material, someone declines, and the requesting artist is offended by the rejection. Either because they believe it's silly to reject the proposal, that the other person is being selfish, etc. It really doesn't matter.
The fact of the matter is the burden of that decision should be on the convention rules, not up to the individual artists.
I don't believe that referencing theft is relevant to this situation. There is no doubt that theft is wrong in practically all situations.
Realistically, I agree that many people might be offended by having their request declined. This feeling may have to do with the expectation that they should be able to post as they please. If it is stated somewhere, or better yet, if the general population takes upon the norm, to be prepared to not post behind or to the sides, perhaps people may be more aware of proper etiquette and less likely to feel that they are being denied a right and can avoid having hurt feelings.
--The next section is intended to clarify my personal intentions and feelings, not to antagonize or belittle anyone--
I suppose I am not too concerned with this specific situation. Rather I am VERY concerned that people may not be confident in their own abilities and/or lack the desire to improve. I cannot say for certain if this is how people actually feel, but it has sounded this way to me for a long time now. When someone loses business to a picture that is posted behind them, I feel that that person should think: "This artist behind me seems to have something that draws people's attention. There is something that people prefer at that booth over what I have. What is it?" If this x-factor happens to be style, then there is little one can do other than switching to a more preferred style for the future, or altering the customer base's preferences somehow. If it happens to be quality, then the problem lies in the artist, not the posting habits of their neighbor. If it so happens that the neighbor has a bigger stand, then the artist should entertain making a comparable stand. Regardless of what it actually is, I do not think that the answer to the competition it poses should be countered with imposed restrictions.
erh what about facing the image the other way..?
I mean you can post the image behind you, but would'nt that show a white blank canvas?
(without disturbing others!)
i mean I think people does that all the time!...
and what about backdrop images...?
would'nt that interfere with the artists chair?
I noticed last year that there was a backdrop that was showcasing some sort of valley.. not sure who the artist is but i thought it was neat idea.. until it brought upon the chair incident!
My personal stand point on it is that I think it is downright rude rude rude. What else would you put picture on the back of your display for than to direct customers to you from the other side? What does that do to your neighbors behind you? I've had it happen to me before, and when I asked the AA directore to ask her to take them down and he did ask her, she got in a huff and was sour to me ALL weekend. So yeah, if you do decline, they may get very upset with you for hte rest of the con. And I'm one of those people that has a hard time saying no when confronted by people in that manner...
Quote from: mcmissa on November 16, 2011, 08:56:01 AM
It's really rude. I understand the sentiment if it doesn't interfere with the artist behind you, however I really think it is dishonorable to
display artist work directly behind them where it will get confused with the artist who sits behind them. An artist should never have to direct and explain that artwork isn't theirs. I've heard many an artist who has had this happen to them get really frustrated that their con experience was half explaining and redirecting people away from their booth.
An artist really can't work with the space they are given? Those who fight for artwork being displayed directly behind them care about only one thing: Their visibility at the expense of the artist who sits directly behind them. It isn't cool and I think it's really crazy that people will defend this.
For artist that sit at corner tables, this is a way different scenario. Having displays on the side of their booths clearly doesn't interfere with the artist behind them. And as long as both parties are happy there isn't an issue.
As someone who has been apart of the Artist Alley since 2006 I can say that I have always seen this done and I've not heard of any problems with artists having double-sided displays. I have seen an issue with artists posting pics to the side facing the table next to them which has caused issues. Usually though people are smart enough to realize style differences, those that don't are probably newbies that haven't ever been to the artist alley before. The thing to remember is that often times artists have too many different prints and they cannot fit all of them on the front side and on the table, therefore the backside becomes useful in displaying.
If it is becoming a problem then another option would be to create a print catalog (I've seen a select few seasoned artists start to do this).
To be honest though... I get the feeling that those complaining also have their displays on both sides, but their skill level may not be that high and they are probably just jealous and want to hurt the sales of the others who are at a higher skill level than they are.
Artist Alley is a family for me. Those who I have met and gotten to know, those who I have yet to meet; even though everyone's a rival they always seem to get along well... I'm not sure what is causing the sudden issues popping up but I hope that everyone will maintain that feeling of family within the Artist Alley.
Everyone is there for the same reason. To promote their talent and provide art to the fans of the event. To meet others and trade information on styles and just hang out and have fun. Let's keep Artist Alley that way =)
I don't think this is a matter of skill level at all, I think it's an issue of basic common courtesy. You're not supposed to interfere with your neighbor's display. Having your logo, banner, or artwork showing on their side counts as interfering with their display. You wouldn't put a sign or your artwork behind your neighbor's booth, so why should the person behind you be any different? This is the first year I'll be having a booth at any convention, and even I know I would never put up a double sided banner. It seems like a pretty rude thing to do, and I know a lot of people would have issues saying they weren't okay with it if asked.
And frankly, saying 'you're just jealous because they're better than you' is pretty rude as well.
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 02:04:04 PM
To be honest though... I get the feeling that those complaining also have their displays on both sides, but their skill level may not be that high and they are probably just jealous and want to hurt the sales of the others who are at a higher skill level than they are.
Are... are you kidding? The age old "They don't like it because they are jealous" comment? I agree with Laggy, that is pretty rude in and of itself. I can assure you it is not about skill, but I can also say that the person who was hanging posters double-sided was also not higher in skill level. In fact this artist has been banned in a lot of alleys for bad practice (if 14 tables at Otakon rings a bell, you know who I am talking about).
And you are giving a lot of con goers credit here for being able to see differences in style... I sat next to a buddy of mine at Youmacon last year who was selling buttons and I was selling things vastly different from what she was. All weekend people were trying to hand me money for her things and vice versa. And at the end of the weekend when I had a clearance on prints, people were trying to buy HER prints at my price, which is frustrating to say the least. Some people just don't know the difference. Is it there fault? Maybe not, a lot of artists share space and that can confuse them. But when you are spending much of the convention telling people that the print they want is actually not yours and that you should go see the person on the other side for whatever it is they want, it gets more than just a little tiresome after a while.
By the way, I don't hang my posters double sided, since you assumed I do?
I will agree that backwards facing displays are downright rude. I've been selling at the Fanime artist alley since 2001 and last year was the first year I've had a problem with this. Perhaps it's been going on for a while, I don't know, it hasn't happened to me before. And no, it's not a matter of competition because my table sells buttons and handcrafts instead of art prints. Because of that, there's no style to distinguish between my product and those of that backwards facing display. And I will also agree that saying the artists who are upset with this are "just jealous" is pretty rude in and of itself as well.
Last year, I've had people constantly asking to buy the artwork that wasn't mine. But it wasn't just that, I don't have a problem telling them it's not mine and directing them to the appropriate table. No, they don't just come up to my table and ask for the print, I've also had people standing in front of my table staring at those prints for several minutes and blocking potential customers for my product from accessing my table. Not only that, but quite a few times, people had actually leaned over my table to get a better view of those art prints and that was just not acceptable at all!
So no, it's not a matter of petty jealousy over skill level. And yes, these backwards facing displays are encroaching on my table space and my ability to sell my own products.
And finally, when the artists behind us were asked to take down or cover up their backwards facing artwork, they tried to ask for my permission to keep their display up. Naturally, I declined and told them I would like it if they didn't. And they proceeded to b*tch about it to each other and their friends who visited their table pretty loudly for the rest of the con, which made the mood more than a bit uncomfortable for me and the other artists in my row. You would think people will be civil about it, but I've experienced different.
I am so shocked and confused by this issue. Since when is having a double-sided display rude? I'm so baffled I don't even know how to respond to this.
I've never sold at Fanime but I have sold at many different Artist Alleys over the years. My first couple of cons I only had a one-sided display, but I noticed over artists using double-sided displays and I thought it was a fantastic idea! So I started doing it and have been ever since.
Just to clarify, by double sided display I'm referring to having a PVC display on top of my table and hanging prints on both sides. I would never put art or a banner directly behind my neighbor in a way that would intrude on their personal space and disrupt them.
And in the many years and many cons I have sold at, I have never, ever had someone confuse the work of the artist behind me for my own, or vice versa. I mean, the other artist's table is at least 3-6 feet behind me! At a table facing the opposite way! Who would even be able to get that confused? I have, however, had many people want to buy the work of the artist next to me, or vice versa, but I have never been offended by it. Why would I? I just politely tell them it's not mine and refer them to the correct artist.
I've also had many people tell me "I saw your ___ print from behind on the other side of the room and I had to come over!" meaning that my double-sided display is certainly doing good things for business. However, I don't see how that would mean I'm taking business away from other artists. If they were browsing another artist's table, saw my work from across the room, and came over, that's not my fault. It just means I have better work that they were more interested in. (Not to sound cocky, I'm not saying I have the best work. I'm just saying that if someone sees it and is more interested in it, that's their choice!).
Overall, I have never heard any artists complain about double-sided displays until I saw this thread. I know tons of artists who do it and I have never had anyone say anything bad about it. In fact, all the artists I know agree that it is great for business. I don't find it rude in any way, shape, or form.
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Overall, I have never heard any artists complain about double-sided displays until I saw this thread. I know tons of artists who do it and I have never had anyone say anything bad about it. In fact, all the artists I know agree that it is great for business. I don't find it rude in any way, shape, or form.
Great for your business. Great for business for those who do it and encroach on others' territory. Bad business for those who get their art confused with yours. Don't you think that you have never had a problem with it... because you do it? You don't find it rude, but you can tell by the responses in this thread that while you are doing at a con, others' will most definitely find it rude and generally not like you for it. I know I don't find very much respect when I see people doing it at cons. I just can't see how this is oh so shocking, that advertising behind someone else's table is rude.
I wish cons would just ban it already. There are already some that do.
Edit: I should add that when someone has displays facing backwords behind me, I tell the director about it. Usually they will ask the person to take it down. If this happens to you at *any* con and it is not outright banned, don't hesitate to ask an administrator. It's not right for them to get free advertising from the booth you paid good money for. I am usually way too shy to ask the artist outright to remove it, so I got straight for those in charge who are generally understanding.
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Just to clarify, by double sided display I'm referring to having a PVC display on top of my table and hanging prints on both sides. I would never put art or a banner directly behind my neighbor in a way that would intrude on their personal space and disrupt them.
As I said in my post, it's not just being mistaken for the artist, it's the fact that people will see the art and will stop to inspect the art. While in front of my table. And block other people who might be interested in my product. If your rear neighbor is fine with it, by all means, go ahead. But I think it might just be common courtesy to ask first.
Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Overall, I have never heard any artists complain about double-sided displays until I saw this thread. I know tons of artists who do it and I have never had anyone say anything bad about it. In fact, all the artists I know agree that it is great for business. I don't find it rude in any way, shape, or form.
Great for your business. Great for business for those who do it and encroach on others' territory. Bad business for those who get their art confused with yours. Don't you think that you have never had a problem with it... because you do it? You don't find it rude, but you can tell by the responses in this thread that while you are doing at a con, others' will most definitely find it rude and generally not like you for it. I know I don't find very much respect when I see people doing it at cons. I just can't see how this is oh so shocking, that advertising behind someone else's table is rude.
I wish cons would just ban it already. There are already some that do.
Edit: I should add that when someone has displays facing backwords behind me, I tell the director about it. Usually they will ask the person to take it down. If this happens to you at *any* con and it is not outright banned, don't hesitate to ask an administrator. It's not right for them to get free advertising from the booth you paid good money for. I am usually way too shy to ask the artist outright to remove it, so I got straight for those in charge who are generally understanding.
But how is it "Free advertising from the booth you paid good money for" when the art is on their
own booth? As long as the art or banner is within the space that the artist themselves paid for, they can do what they want with it unless otherwise stated in the rules.
And no, it's not just because I do it. I've had plenty of artists sitting behind me do it too. I've never had someone confuse their work for mine or have it bother me in any way.
Also, roughly 90% of the artists I see with PVC displays have double-sided displays. So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that everyone agrees with you. It's shocking to me because I've never heard of it being "rude" before until just now in this thread.
In fact, I've actually had a couple of artists tell me it's very smart of me to double my display and they mention that they will use the idea in the future. They are genuine and not spiteful about it, jftr. If anyone commented about my display intruding on their space (which it does not) that would be much different.
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.
And artists should have the common courtesy not to put up advertising in a place that would prompt shoppers to stop and acknowledge that advertisement. Because people will stop and look, it's human nature. Something attracts our attention, such as good artwork we might desire to own, and we will stop to look at it. Those who glance at it and continue walking are likely not going to buy the print. So what is the point of rear facing displays if you think it's common courtesy for people to not look at it and act like they don't want your art? Just don't put it up, then.
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.
And artists should have the common courtesy not to put up advertising in a place that would prompt shoppers to stop and acknowledge that advertisement. Because people will stop and look, it's human nature. Something attracts our attention, such as good artwork we might desire to own, and we will stop to look at it. Those who glance at it and continue walking are likely not going to buy the print. So what is the point of rear facing displays if you think it's common courtesy for people to act like they don't want your art? Just don't put it up, then.
No..? If someone sees the print from the opposite side and likes it, they would walk over to my table to get a closer look and/or purchase it. What I'm saying is, standing in front of the opposite artist's table to look at the display behind theirs is 1) rude and 2) doesn't make sense. They might as well go around to the actual table to get a look.
I don't have a double-sided display in order to have people stand there and stare at the opposite side. I have it so when they're on the other side they might see it and be like "hey that print looks cool! Let me go check out that table"
It's more to catch their attention than anything else. So no, I don't put up double-sided prints for them to "see it and walk away" that doesn't make any sense.
From an attendee's viewpoint, display backs can be kind of nice if you're looking for a specific artist. c: Or at least, having a name or logo or a single work sample identifying what artist is on the other side of the giant display you can only see the back of.
I think the ideal situation would be to have every artist in the entire hall with a nice looking front and back display.
Considering it's been done for YEARS (10+ at least) and only recently has it become an issue; doesn't anyone find it odd that it was never an issue before the last year or so? I also find it strange that it's not the veteran artists (5+ years) complaining about it, but the newer ones to the AA that are. If I'm mistaken in that statement someone please let me know.
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 05:00:46 PM
Considering it's been done for YEARS (10+ at least) and only recently has it become an issue; doesn't anyone find it odd that it was never an issue before the last year or so? I also find it strange that it's not the veteran artists (5+ years) complaining about it, but the newer ones to the AA that are. If I'm mistaken in that statement someone please let me know.
I absolutely agree with this! I've been doing Artist Alleys since I was 14 (I'm nearly 19 now, so lets say 5 years) and I've never heard a single complaint about myself or another artist doing it! In fact, so many artists do it, it seems that it's the minority who don't. In my opinion, it's just a smart way to advertise
within your own table space.And to the person who posted above about it being easier for attendees to find an artist- also very true! I've had so many attendees tell me they saw my display from across the room because it's double-sided.
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 05:00:46 PM
Considering it's been done for YEARS (10+ at least) and only recently has it become an issue; doesn't anyone find it odd that it was never an issue before the last year or so? I also find it strange that it's not the veteran artists (5+ years) complaining about it, but the newer ones to the AA that are. If I'm mistaken in that statement someone please let me know.
Yes, you are mistaken. I'm new to Artist Alley, but a lot of the people complaining aren't. I believe Wiccat just said they'd been doing it since 2001. Again. It's not a skill level issue. It's not an issue about how long the artist has been at it. Everyone voicing their opinion on this matter are all very different, there is no particular category of people who have a problem with this. You may not have run into the issue before now yourself, but obviously there are people who don't like it.
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.
And artists should have the common courtesy not to put up advertising in a place that would prompt shoppers to stop and acknowledge that advertisement. Because people will stop and look, it's human nature. Something attracts our attention, such as good artwork we might desire to own, and we will stop to look at it. Those who glance at it and continue walking are likely not going to buy the print. So what is the point of rear facing displays if you think it's common courtesy for people to act like they don't want your art? Just don't put it up, then.
No..? If someone sees the print from the opposite side and likes it, they would walk over to my table to get a closer look and/or purchase it. What I'm saying is, standing in front of the opposite artist's table to look at the display behind theirs is 1) rude and 2) doesn't make sense. They might as well go around to the actual table to get a look.
I don't have a double-sided display in order to have people stand there and stare at the opposite side. I have it so when they're on the other side they might see it and be like "hey that print looks cool! Let me go check out that table"
It's more to catch their attention than anything else. So no, I don't put up double-sided prints for them to "see it and walk away" that doesn't make any sense.
Regardless of what you say makes sense, I have actually had it happen to me. And it wasn't just a handful of people, that I can handle, but a LOT of people did that to me, hence why I was so frustrated.
And what I had forgotten to mention in my original post - I don't go to just artist alley, I attend professional trade shows as well for my business (which isn't art) and the norm for every trade show I've participated in is when you buy the table space, you also buy the air space around it. You are only allowed to show your displays inward. Granted, I know artist alleys are far from professional trade shows. However, it IS common practice and it IS common courtesy in the professional business world. Backwards facing displays are advertising in your neighbors' air space, hence encroaching on another artist's space and should not be allowed.
You may feel free to disagree and continue to defend your position, but I do consider it very rude and I hope the art alley staff firmly continues to enforce the rules against backwards facing displays.
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 05:11:48 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Also, to the other poster who said that people would stop in front of their table to stare at another artists display (I would quote it but I don't know how to quote twice in one post sorry!) I think that's more rude of the attendees than the artist. They should have some common courtesy not to do so.
And artists should have the common courtesy not to put up advertising in a place that would prompt shoppers to stop and acknowledge that advertisement. Because people will stop and look, it's human nature. Something attracts our attention, such as good artwork we might desire to own, and we will stop to look at it. Those who glance at it and continue walking are likely not going to buy the print. So what is the point of rear facing displays if you think it's common courtesy for people to act like they don't want your art? Just don't put it up, then.
No..? If someone sees the print from the opposite side and likes it, they would walk over to my table to get a closer look and/or purchase it. What I'm saying is, standing in front of the opposite artist's table to look at the display behind theirs is 1) rude and 2) doesn't make sense. They might as well go around to the actual table to get a look.
I don't have a double-sided display in order to have people stand there and stare at the opposite side. I have it so when they're on the other side they might see it and be like "hey that print looks cool! Let me go check out that table"
It's more to catch their attention than anything else. So no, I don't put up double-sided prints for them to "see it and walk away" that doesn't make any sense.
Regardless of what you say makes sense, I have actually had it happen to me. And it wasn't just a handful of people, that I can handle, but a LOT of people did that to me, hence why I was so frustrated.
And what I had forgotten to mention in my original post - I don't go to just artist alley, I attend professional trade shows as well for my business (which isn't art) and the norm for every trade show I've participated in is when you buy the table space, you also buy the air space around it. You are only allowed to show your displays inward. Granted, I know artist alleys are far from professional trade shows. However, it IS common practice and it IS common courtesy in the professional business world. Backwards facing displays are advertising in your neighbors' air space, hence encroaching on another artist's space and should not be allowed.
You may feel free to disagree and continue to defend your position, but I do consider it very rude and I hope the art alley staff firmly continues to enforce the rules against backwards facing displays.
I know it's different in every Artist Alley, but many I have been in, the rules will say something along the lines of "your table space includes your table plus 3 feet of space behind your table. You can put anything within this space that adheres to the other rules" etc.
Which is why I believe that as long as my art is hanging ON my display INSIDE that allotted space, it doesn't matter if it's forwards, backwards, upside down, whichever. I can do whatever I want with it within the space I paid for.
I apologize if that comes off as rude but it just seems logical, especially if the rules say so.
As for people blocking your table a LOT, like I said earlier, sounds more rude of the attendees for not having manners, as opposed to anyone else.
I think it would be easier and fairer for the people who don't like back displays to build their own big front display that hides the display behind them. Then put a back on your own big display, if you like. c:
That way, no one is being encroached upon to do one thing or the other. It's entirely up to you to have a back display, not have a back display, build your own big eye catching display that shows off your work and hides what's behind you, not bother with a big display if you don't want, bring a curtain to hang behind you .... there are a bunch of options.
If your work is good, it is *going* to sell. c: If people cluster in front of your table taking photos, looking at the tables to either side, looking at the table behind you, tell them not (I have had to do this frequently. ^^)
I'd like to see the power entirely in the artist's hands what they do with their space and how they combat back displays. When the pressure has been on me to build a strong display or die trying, I think solving the problem at hand has made me a more ingenious merchant in addition to making my sales rise as I learn to display my work in more eye catching ways.
Okay so one senior artist and a handful of newbies vs the other 80-90% of AA that all do their displays double-sided......
One thing I will say:
Artist Alley was first created as a means for amateur - semi-professional artists to display their work and potentially sell some of it; but mostly to get their name out in order to be discovered by a company or studio. How they display their work for others never mattered in the past and if you wanted to you had the right to do a double-sided display just like anyone else did.
You CHOSE to not use that right and rather than leave it at that decided that no one else should be allowed to either since you weren't doing it. A small group of like-minded individuals agreed with you and you took the issue to the coordinator making it seem bigger than it really was. Since none of the artists knew what was going on the idea passed their judgement. Now that the other artists know they are disturbed by it and that upsets you that your logic is not being accepted by the majority.
Would you prefer that everyone put one of those back displays behind them and their table/chairs just to make up for the fact that they can't display it on their table display anymore? Do you realize how much of a fire hazard those displays are? Yet because some artists need them they are allowed with minimal complaint since only a small amount use them. Or are you going to ask Fanime to ban those next to inconvenience those artists that are trying hard to find away around the new rule you had Fanime create for your own benefit because you either don't want a double-sided display, don't have enough work to have one, or are to lazy to take the extra 20 minutes to make one.
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 05:00:46 PM
Considering it's been done for YEARS (10+ at least) and only recently has it become an issue; doesn't anyone find it odd that it was never an issue before the last year or so? I also find it strange that it's not the veteran artists (5+ years) complaining about it, but the newer ones to the AA that are. If I'm mistaken in that statement someone please let me know.
Actually, this is incorrect. Not even structural displays have been the norm for Fanime artist alley until recently, so how could backwards facing displays have been in place for over ten years? Some friends of mine were actually some of the first artists to start doing structural displays and it seemed to have exploded from there. That was pretty recent.
http://baau.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1428&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Here are pictures from Fanime artist alley 2007, and you barely see any structural displays.
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 05:22:28 PM
I know it's different in every Artist Alley, but many I have been in, the rules will say something along the lines of "your table space includes your table plus 3 feet of space behind your table. You can put anything within this space that adheres to the other rules" etc.
Which is why I believe that as long as my art is hanging ON my display INSIDE that allotted space, it doesn't matter if it's forwards, backwards, upside down, whichever. I can do whatever I want with it within the space I paid for.
I apologize if that comes off as rude but it just seems logical, especially if the rules say so.
As for people blocking your table a LOT, like I said earlier, sounds more rude of the attendees for not having manners, as opposed to anyone else.
Yes, you are coming off as very rude and selfish. At the risk of sounding old, I'm very disappointed with people these days, they have no sense of being considerate to other people, all they care about is furthering their own gains by doing rude things and calling it clever. What of people taking up-close photos of your artwork instead of just purchasing a print? They're being clever by getting the art without spending the money and it (used to be) not against the rules. Just because you are being picky about the wording in the rules does not mean you are being clever. It's still rude. But whatever, the art alley staff decided last year that backward facing displays are against the rules.
Quote from: lilindar on January 28, 2012, 05:32:50 PM
If your work is good, it is *going* to sell. c: If people cluster in front of your table taking photos, looking at the tables to either side, looking at the table behind you, tell them not (I have had to do this frequently. ^^)
I agree with this so much as well c:
Though I've never had someone block my table to look at the artist behind me, I've had many people block my table to look at the artist
next to me! Usually they aren't there for too long so I just let them be. But like you said, if your art is good it will sell! When I was 14 and just starting out in Alleys, my art wasn't very good. At one con, I had an absolutely fantastic artist next to me, and her booth was constantly crowded with fans. I even had many people mistake her table for mine and be like "I love your work, can I have that one?!" only for me to awkwardly tell them it wasn't mine.
But I'm not going to be mad at the artist for the ignorance or confusion of attendees. It's not her fault she was a great artist, in fact, I applaud her for her success in the Alley. In my opinion, what happened in that situation is no different than what happens with double-sided displays as well. It's bound to happen and it's not really the artists fault for simply making good use of their display in
the space they paid for.
I wouldn't call anything over 5 years as recent...and AX had them going since 2006 when I first attended and probably before that. Recent would be in the last 1-3 years tops.
I do not see any reason why artists can't post on the backside of their own table display. Just put up your own display the same way. It's not as big of a deal as you have made it out to be and there were many complaints over the new rule last year.
If you don't want to deal with it, why not ask for a table with the wall behind it? Then you won't have to worry about it.
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 05:38:15 PM
Okay so one senior artist and a handful of newbies vs the other 80-90% of AA that all do their displays double-sided......
Wow. So anyone who's new to this is inferior, and anyone who thinks a double sided display is rude is just unskilled and jealous, is that right?
I may not agree with the double sided banner issue, but at least the other people who do agree with it aren't being disrespectful and rude about it. And I've been going to Fanime for seven years as an attendee, and saying that 80-90% of Artist Alley have double sided displays is simply not true.
I wasn't talking about that, I was referring to the amount of people pro single sided displays versus those who want double-sided displays. That comment had nothing to do with skill at all. The percentage was a guesstimate.
I may have been a little bit agitated while making that comment since the post before that was a bit more self-centered towards their own personal issues vs AA issues overall.
The point is, the majority of the artists rely on those double-sided displays.
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 06:17:16 PM
I wasn't talking about that, I was referring to the amount of people pro single sided displays versus those who want double-sided displays. That comment had nothing to do with skill at all. The percentage was a guesstimate.
I was referring to your previous comment about how you thought that the people complaining were of a lower skill level and just jealous.
And the percentage is way off in the single sided vs double sided display thing too. If so little people had a problem with it, Fanime wouldn't be taking action against it and this thread wouldn't exist.
Anyone who's worked in customer service knows that it only takes a small handful of complaints for something to need to be done; even if the majority weren't affected by it or if it impacts them separately.
The skill level comment was an assumption since I didn't recognize any of the artists that were complaining about the double-sided displays. Also most of the arguments they gave were that the attendees were getting in the way of their table and that it was hurting their sales; but if that's the case shouldn't they do their best to try to draw attention towards their work and away from the display behind them and try to make a sale themselves? In that situation it's a 50:50 chance they will either make a sale or the attendee will become uninterested and walk away to go to the other table. Any attention is good attention; how you use it to benefit yourself is up to you.
That's a very true and excellent point, but it's not a handful of complaints. This is a direct quote from Marc Dell'Erba, one of the Artist Alley staff, the guy who made this thread, and the guy who runs the Artist Alley facebook page:
"The first sentence in point #9 is (literally) the point. It shouldn't be annoying this year as artists here by a 2-1 margin believe a neighbor's works facing into their space is an infingement of that space."
So it's not 'one veteran and a handful of noobies.' A lot of people have an issue with this.
I have to say that I am *not* a "newbie". I've been selling at 5-12 cons a year for six years. And this is very much not a new issue. I had this same discussion on the Anime Weekend Atlanta forums two years ago.
Also, I use a PCV pipe display, as do most of my artist friends I generally like to sit by and sell with, and they do not do this.
Generalizations like "newbs only complain about this" and "90% of people with PVC pipe displays do this" are not going to help your cause , because it is just untrue. Perhaps you should travel to more cons and see for yourself that not very many seasoned con artists do this.
I'm also not going to just put up a display that covers the one behind me if they do double-sided. This causes problems. If the artist behind me wants to display pictures on that side they are going to do it, and if I cover it up it's starting drama. However, if I ask them to take it down, or ask the director to ask them for me because it very much bothers me, I would rather do that. Can you see how constantly covering up each other's display can start a dispute, or worse, a fight?
I have been to conventions all over CA and Sakura-Con 1 time. Unfortunately working full time limits me from traveling further.
I can say I have been to the following and all of them had a majority of artists that did double-sided displays with no complaints from other artists (to my knowledge):
Anime LA, SacAnime, SacCon, AOD, JTAF, Ani-Jam, Pacific Media Expo, Anime Expo, Sakura-Con
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 07:11:56 PM
I have been to conventions all over CA and Sakura-Con 1 time. Unfortunately working full time limits me from traveling further.
I can say I have been to the following and all of them had a majority of artists that did double-sided displays with no complaints from other artists (to my knowledge):
Anime LA, SacAnime, SacCon, AOD, JTAF, Ani-Jam, Pacific Media Expo, Anime Expo, Sakura-Con
I'm just going to go ahead and say that it must be a west coast thing, because on the eastern seaboard you don't see any of that.
...Obviously I'm joking, I'm not going to judge a region as a whole :P But really, having been to cons in all regions of the US and some Canadian ones, this is not generally a well accepted thing. You have say 200-300 tables in the AA and maybe 10 or 20 people have double sided displays. It's not a majority. I mean, whether or not Fanime allows double sided displays or not, my final word on the issue is that if you sit behind me and you do it I will ask for you to take it down. I will also ask an administrator if that fails.
To the director and staff -- would you be willing to ask artists to take back displays down at the request of the artist sitting behind them if they do not like it?
Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 07:19:47 PM
Quote from: Cole on January 28, 2012, 07:11:56 PM
I have been to conventions all over CA and Sakura-Con 1 time. Unfortunately working full time limits me from traveling further.
I can say I have been to the following and all of them had a majority of artists that did double-sided displays with no complaints from other artists (to my knowledge):
Anime LA, SacAnime, SacCon, AOD, JTAF, Ani-Jam, Pacific Media Expo, Anime Expo, Sakura-Con
I'm just going to go ahead and say that it must be a west coast thing, because on the eastern seaboard you don't see any of that.
...Obviously I'm joking, I'm not going to judge a region as a whole :P But really, having been to cons in all regions of the US and some Canadian ones, this is not generally a well accepted thing. You have say 200-300 tables in the AA and maybe 10 or 20 people have double sided displays. It's not a majority. I mean, whether or not Fanime allows double sided displays or not, my final word on the issue is that if you sit behind me and you do it I will ask for you to take it down. I will also ask an administrator if that fails.
To the director and staff -- would you be willing to ask artists to take back displays down at the request of the artist sitting behind them if they do not like it?
Lol, I was going to say maybe it's an East Coast thing, all of the cons I have been to are in the Mid to North East (along with Nan Desu Kan in CO) and I've always seen a majority of double-sided displays. I just did Neko Con a couple of months ago, my most recent one, and there were about 30 artists with PVC display and about 20-25 of them had double-sided displays. Of course this is an estimate, not exact numbers, but I certainly did notice a majority of double-sided displays. Some artists in the same block as me even told me it was a clever idea and that they would be doing it at their next con!
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
Lol, I was going to say maybe it's an East Coast thing, all of the cons I have been to are in the Mid to North East (along with Nan Desu Kan in CO) and I've always seen a majority of double-sided displays. I just did Neko Con a couple of months ago, my most recent one, and there were about 30 artists with PVC display and about 20-25 of them had double-sided displays. Of course this is an estimate, not exact numbers, but I certainly did notice a majority of double-sided displays. Some artists in the same block as me even told me it was a clever idea and that they would be doing it at their next con!
It's not Mid west cons or North East cons either. I live in Chicago and my main cons are here in Chicago, so.... nope. I've been to these cons you both are talking about and the numbers just aren't adding up... I really don't feel like arguing numbers anymore, because I'll say it's not a majority and you'll say it is. I know from my experience and my own eyes that it's not a majority. And go to a good Comic con someday and see if any of the artists there do that kind of thing -- they don't. They don't think it's clever, they don't think it's good business, they think it is unprofessional.
So let us agree to disagree and wait for input from the staff.
Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 07:42:25 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
Lol, I was going to say maybe it's an East Coast thing, all of the cons I have been to are in the Mid to North East (along with Nan Desu Kan in CO) and I've always seen a majority of double-sided displays. I just did Neko Con a couple of months ago, my most recent one, and there were about 30 artists with PVC display and about 20-25 of them had double-sided displays. Of course this is an estimate, not exact numbers, but I certainly did notice a majority of double-sided displays. Some artists in the same block as me even told me it was a clever idea and that they would be doing it at their next con!
It's not Mid west cons or North East cons either. I live in Chicago and my main cons are here in Chicago, so.... nope. I've been to these cons you both are talking about and the numbers just aren't adding up... I really don't feel like arguing numbers anymore, because I'll say it's not a majority and you'll say it is. I know from my experience and my own eyes that it's not a majority. And go to a good Comic con someday and see if any of the artists there do that kind of thing -- they don't. They don't think it's clever, they don't think it's good business, they think it is unprofessional.
So let us agree to disagree and wait for input from the staff.
You know, I'm just gonna agree with you then. I don't want to argue anymore because they are just spouting incorrect information and refuse to listen to our side. It is unprofessional and something that younger inexperienced and inconsiderate people will do. Go to the dealer's room of any con, even. Who does something like that? No one.
I'd just like to correct a misconception on my previous post. Planning a nice, big display on your table so that a display behind you won't be an issue isn't somehow against the rules.
Not sure what was being envisioned, taping your posters to the back of someone else's display? O_o But entirely not what I meant.
Anyway, this issue is being disputed from a seller's viewpoint, but what about from an attendee's view? <~ This I think is more important. What would make the most impressive, good looking, easy to navigate artist alley? Having the blank backs of posters visible isn't as attractive as a decorated back. It is also harder for an attendee to find the artist they're looking for if work is only visible from one angle.
If the staff does step in to comment on this issue, I'd like them to go into some additional details for my benefit. 8<
If no posters can be put on the backs of pvc displays, then I would like to be allowed to design pretty backs for my display posters. A nice backing that would be attractive if an attendee sees my booth from behind. I'd like to put my characters from my comic and favorite fanart characters and identifying text to identify me and my comic. 8( I really care about my display and if I am not allowed to put posters OR a design that isn't for sale, I will feel naked. 8((((((
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 07:42:25 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
Lol, I was going to say maybe it's an East Coast thing, all of the cons I have been to are in the Mid to North East (along with Nan Desu Kan in CO) and I've always seen a majority of double-sided displays. I just did Neko Con a couple of months ago, my most recent one, and there were about 30 artists with PVC display and about 20-25 of them had double-sided displays. Of course this is an estimate, not exact numbers, but I certainly did notice a majority of double-sided displays. Some artists in the same block as me even told me it was a clever idea and that they would be doing it at their next con!
It's not Mid west cons or North East cons either. I live in Chicago and my main cons are here in Chicago, so.... nope. I've been to these cons you both are talking about and the numbers just aren't adding up... I really don't feel like arguing numbers anymore, because I'll say it's not a majority and you'll say it is. I know from my experience and my own eyes that it's not a majority. And go to a good Comic con someday and see if any of the artists there do that kind of thing -- they don't. They don't think it's clever, they don't think it's good business, they think it is unprofessional.
So let us agree to disagree and wait for input from the staff.
The numbers don't add up. If you have a room of 30 artists, most of those artists will be against the perimeter wall of the room because most cons with smaller art alleys do that sort of layout. Why would anyone do double sided displays if there's just a wall behind you? So how could 20-25 of them have double sided displays?
Actually, if you read my post you'll see that I said 30 artists
with PVC displays. There were more artists total. I'm only talking about the types with PVC. Also, the layout included very few tables against the wall- maybe about 10 total. Nearly all of the tables were in blocks. I saw it with my own eyes so you can choose to believe me or not- I have no reason to lie though.
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 08:02:56 PM
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 07:42:25 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
Lol, I was going to say maybe it's an East Coast thing, all of the cons I have been to are in the Mid to North East (along with Nan Desu Kan in CO) and I've always seen a majority of double-sided displays. I just did Neko Con a couple of months ago, my most recent one, and there were about 30 artists with PVC display and about 20-25 of them had double-sided displays. Of course this is an estimate, not exact numbers, but I certainly did notice a majority of double-sided displays. Some artists in the same block as me even told me it was a clever idea and that they would be doing it at their next con!
It's not Mid west cons or North East cons either. I live in Chicago and my main cons are here in Chicago, so.... nope. I've been to these cons you both are talking about and the numbers just aren't adding up... I really don't feel like arguing numbers anymore, because I'll say it's not a majority and you'll say it is. I know from my experience and my own eyes that it's not a majority. And go to a good Comic con someday and see if any of the artists there do that kind of thing -- they don't. They don't think it's clever, they don't think it's good business, they think it is unprofessional.
So let us agree to disagree and wait for input from the staff.
The numbers don't add up. If you have a room of 30 artists, most of those artists will be against the perimeter wall of the room because most cons with smaller art alleys do that sort of layout. Why would anyone do double sided displays if there's just a wall behind you? So how could 20-25 of them have double sided displays?
Actually, if you read my post you'll see that I said 30 artists with PVC displays. There were more artists total. I'm only talking about the types with PVC. Also, the layout included very few tables against the wall- maybe about 10 total. Nearly all of the tables were in blocks. I saw it with my own eyes so you can choose to believe me or not- I have no reason to lie though.
Alright, I looked it up. Here is a pan shot of the artist alley of Nekocon 2011.
http://yolapeoples.deviantart.com/art/Greece-and-Turkey-Face-Off-268040535
You can clearly see that the backs of those tables with PVC displays are white. No backwards facing displays there. In the top picture, the display behind the one with the green signs, all white. The display with the green signs clearing nothing on the back of those. The one behind the man in the green shirt, all white. The two further back to the right of the man with the green shirt, also all white. In the bottom picture, right in the center of the picture, the back of that display is also all white.
http://regirll.deviantart.com/art/Nekocon-2011-1-267937929
Here is a different shot. See to the right of the photo there are plenty of forward only displays.
We can argue this all you like, but as I've said above, I'm done and I will allow the art alley staff to enforce it however they want. But I agree with KikaiSaigono, if the person behind me does try to put up a backwards facing display, I will request them to take it down and bring it to the attention of the staff if they refuse. As Laggy has stated, the head of the artist alley said the artists were 2-1 against backwards facing displays.
And while I was editing, I read the comment below mine and agree completely. Infringing on someone else's table isn't solely confined to physical location.
For what it's worth (signed up specifically to comment here, heh) I have to agree with the comment about airspace. When I purchase a booth or table space, I expect my airspace to be free of other things that take away from my utility of my airspace. That would include no double-sided displays behind me. It's the polite, courteous, and professional thing to do. A few users earlier have already pointed out that it is the norm to only have displays facing inwards in almost all professional settings.
Completely for fun, but worth thinking about... As a law student, I have to point out that California law at least has similar laws about property -- even if you have a display or something that is within the borders of YOUR property, if it interferes with or bothers your neighbors, you're required to remove it. Just a little bit of trivia :3 Just because something is within your space (in this case, table space) doesn't mean you can have any kind of display you want. You might still be interfering with someone else's experience, which is really inconsiderate. It's the same reason you shouldn't blast loud music at your booth, even though the boom box is on your table. Try to think about your fellow artists instead of solely promoting your own sales.
The fact that this has suddenly been raised as such a hot button issue tells me that a very large number of people have issues with double-sided displays. It would be blind to say that only a handful of newbies are raising this fuss.
Sometimes less is more, folks.
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 08:31:56 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 08:02:56 PM
Quote from: Wiccat on January 28, 2012, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: KikaiSaigono on January 28, 2012, 07:42:25 PM
Quote from: daniellesylvan on January 28, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
Lol, I was going to say maybe it's an East Coast thing, all of the cons I have been to are in the Mid to North East (along with Nan Desu Kan in CO) and I've always seen a majority of double-sided displays. I just did Neko Con a couple of months ago, my most recent one, and there were about 30 artists with PVC display and about 20-25 of them had double-sided displays. Of course this is an estimate, not exact numbers, but I certainly did notice a majority of double-sided displays. Some artists in the same block as me even told me it was a clever idea and that they would be doing it at their next con!
It's not Mid west cons or North East cons either. I live in Chicago and my main cons are here in Chicago, so.... nope. I've been to these cons you both are talking about and the numbers just aren't adding up... I really don't feel like arguing numbers anymore, because I'll say it's not a majority and you'll say it is. I know from my experience and my own eyes that it's not a majority. And go to a good Comic con someday and see if any of the artists there do that kind of thing -- they don't. They don't think it's clever, they don't think it's good business, they think it is unprofessional.
So let us agree to disagree and wait for input from the staff.
The numbers don't add up. If you have a room of 30 artists, most of those artists will be against the perimeter wall of the room because most cons with smaller art alleys do that sort of layout. Why would anyone do double sided displays if there's just a wall behind you? So how could 20-25 of them have double sided displays?
Actually, if you read my post you'll see that I said 30 artists with PVC displays. There were more artists total. I'm only talking about the types with PVC. Also, the layout included very few tables against the wall- maybe about 10 total. Nearly all of the tables were in blocks. I saw it with my own eyes so you can choose to believe me or not- I have no reason to lie though.
Alright, I looked it up. Here is a pan shot of the artist alley of Nekocon 2011.
http://yolapeoples.deviantart.com/art/Greece-and-Turkey-Face-Off-268040535
You can clearly see that the backs of those tables with PVC displays are white. No backwards facing displays there. In the top picture, the display behind the one with the green signs, all white. The display with the green signs clearing nothing on the back of those. The one behind the man in the green shirt, all white. The two further back to the right of the man with the green shirt, also all white. In the bottom picture, right in the center of the picture, the back of that display is also all white.
We can argue this all you like, but as I've said above, I'm done and I will allow the art alley staff to enforce it however they want. But I agree with KikaiSaigono, if the person behind me does try to put up a backwards facing display, I will request them to take it down and bring it to the attention of the staff if they refuse. As Laggy has stated, the head of the artist alley said the artists were 2-1 against backwards facing displays.
You can be done arguing but I just want to point out that in that photo you can only see a handful of the backs of tables. That's a very small portion of the Artist Alley. Just because you happened to find a particular shot that shows a couple of single-sided displays does not disprove that there were many double-sided displays there. I was there and I have no reason to lie about it. But if you want to agree to disagree, cool.
OK....we got the feedback we are looking for... thread locked. Thanks all!