http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530284,00.html
So 1st amendment violation or stirring the pot?
Having experience teaching 2 the MS and HS level, I know most schools have a dress code. Anything labeled obscene or offensive is prohibited period. Every child is given a copy of the basic rules and dress code @ the start of the school year and attending said school is a basic verbal agreement to adhere to said rules. I just wonder if a Pro-Choice shirt (that had "offensive" material) on it would have been treated the same way.
A Pro-life isn't offensive at all, as it doesn't desegregate anything or anyone. However the fact that it had an image of a fetus can be viewed as "inappropriate". So it goes into a battle of that more than the message of the shirt.
People can and will be offended by anything. Whether or not they should be has no bearing and whether or not a message can be taken offensively, people will still take it offensively.
The mom is attacking them for the "message" of the shirt. The school is stating that the two fetus' were inappropriate for a child to wear in jr. high.
I agree with the school, and it doesn't concern 1st amendment rights. It's about wearing graphic images on her shirt. If the shirt did not have the images, I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't have asked her to take it off, makes the argument moot. Logically anyways, but things won't happen like that at all.
I hope that crap gets tossed out of court.
Quote from: PyronIkari on July 06, 2009, 04:09:36 PM
A Pro-life isn't offensive at all, as it doesn't desegregate anything or anyone. However the fact that it had an image of a fetus can be viewed as "inappropriate". So it goes into a battle of that more than the message of the shirt.
People can and will be offended by anything. Whether or not they should be has no bearing and whether or not a message can be taken offensively, people will still take it offensively.
The mom is attacking them for the "message" of the shirt. The school is stating that the two fetus' were inappropriate for a child to wear in jr. high.
I agree with the school, and it doesn't concern 1st amendment rights. It's about wearing graphic images on her shirt. If the shirt did not have the images, I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't have asked her to take it off, makes the argument moot. Logically anyways, but things won't happen like that at all.
I agree with this.
The only thing that school may have done wrong is how they handled the situation. At least assuming the way the situation was described by the Plaintiff. But as the article states, the accuracy of this is disputed.
The complaint says that someone put their hands on the kid when taking her to the Principals office. If that's true that's a big problem.
The complaint says that the child was told to remove the shirt and that it was confiscated without the parents being called. If that's true it's also a problem.
However, that school has children as young as kindergarteners. I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to wear a shirt with graphic pictures of a fetus around a school with kids that young. The images may be appropriate for the older kids in a science text book, but for the younger kids out of context it's just not OK.
As was said before, it's the images that are the problem. Not the message.
Freedom of Speech lives. Freedom to bombard little kids with images they can't hope to understand is something totally different.
Rights of the individual do not supersede local rules n regulations people agree to at establishments, inside establishments on private property people can do as they need
Seeing as how Pro-life is a currently debated issue, its freedom of speech without vulgarity, racism, etc; and its sex-ed related, they should have just dropped the case and let the kid wear it.
Quote from: Lucifargundam on July 29, 2009, 05:40:07 PM
Seeing as how Pro-life is a currently debated issue, its freedom of speech without vulgarity, racism, etc; and its sex-ed related, they should have just dropped the case and let the kid wear it.
it seems like you go around and reply to all of these threads without reading them at all. Stop doing that. The issue wasn't about the pro-life message on the shirt.
Quote from: PyronIkari on July 30, 2009, 07:59:04 AM
Quote from: Lucifargundam on July 29, 2009, 05:40:07 PM
Seeing as how Pro-life is a currently debated issue, its freedom of speech without vulgarity, racism, etc; and its sex-ed related, they should have just dropped the case and let the kid wear it.
it seems like you go around and reply to all of these threads without reading them at all. Stop doing that. The issue wasn't about the pro-life message on the shirt.
On top of that, the school holds the right to enforce a dress code of their choosing, regardless of freedom of speech laws. Just as schools banned certain types of clothing and styles while I was in school to curb gang activity.
I would not blame a school for banning controversal shirts such as this. That wouldn't mean that the school had a certain biased view point on the topic, but simply that they wished to avoid controversy and unneccessary arguments on school grounds. In my own personal opinion I don't believe the school should allow anyone to wear shirts promoting either side of this argument, regardless of imagery. It has no place in schools and certainly not one pertaining to this particular age group.
Where do you draw the line on Freedom of Speech?
Can I sue a club for not letting me in with a pro or even anti abortion shirt? Regardless of their dress code policy? Any establishment has a right to create and enforce their own rules on these topics. A little kid should not have the right to wear a controversal shirt on school grounds, regardless of the topic. Especially that kind of shirt with that imagery around all levels of elementary and middle school kids.
But anways, the shirt would have been forcefully removed regardless of the words, simply due to the imagery itself. And yes Lucifargundam, read the topics before you decide to post.
EDIT: It is my understanding that Freedom of Speech laws are only really enforced on true public property, not private. A private location holds the rights to create their own rules. Such as how the SJCC is opened to the public, but yet holds the right to keep the religous protestors from speaking their beliefs on SJCC grounds. The protestors are fully within their rights to say what they want at the public bus stop, just not on SJCC grounds. I believe the same would apply to schools, businesses, etc. (I could be wrong, but that is how it comes off to me anyways....)
Quote from: PyronIkari on July 06, 2009, 04:09:36 PM
A Pro-life isn't offensive at all, as it doesn't desegregate anything or anyone. However the fact that it had an image of a fetus can be viewed as "inappropriate". So it goes into a battle of that more than the message of the shirt.
People can and will be offended by anything. Whether or not they should be has no bearing and whether or not a message can be taken offensively, people will still take it offensively.
The mom is attacking them for the "message" of the shirt. The school is stating that the two fetus' were inappropriate for a child to wear in jr. high.
I agree with the school, and it doesn't concern 1st amendment rights. It's about wearing graphic images on her shirt. If the shirt did not have the images, I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't have asked her to take it off, makes the argument moot. Logically anyways, but things won't happen like that at all.
Agreed. If I was attending school with two naked men on a t-shirt that said "Gay Is beautiful"...no. That's inappropriate, graphic material and should not be allowed, regardless of the message. Props to Mikey.
P.S. Did I just agree with Mikey?
Quote from: SukebeStudios on November 21, 2009, 04:32:35 AM
Quote from: PyronIkari on July 06, 2009, 04:09:36 PM
A Pro-life isn't offensive at all, as it doesn't desegregate anything or anyone. However the fact that it had an image of a fetus can be viewed as "inappropriate". So it goes into a battle of that more than the message of the shirt.
People can and will be offended by anything. Whether or not they should be has no bearing and whether or not a message can be taken offensively, people will still take it offensively.
The mom is attacking them for the "message" of the shirt. The school is stating that the two fetus' were inappropriate for a child to wear in jr. high.
I agree with the school, and it doesn't concern 1st amendment rights. It's about wearing graphic images on her shirt. If the shirt did not have the images, I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't have asked her to take it off, makes the argument moot. Logically anyways, but things won't happen like that at all.
Agreed. If I was attending school with two naked men on a t-shirt that said "Gay Is beautiful"...no. That's inappropriate, graphic material and should not be allowed, regardless of the message. Props to Mikey.
P.S. Did I just agree with Mikey?
Okay this is completely off topic.
Why do you idiots say things like "I can't believe I agree with Pyron" or "Did I just agree with Mikey?" It's idiotic and it just pushes you're idiocy even more. Most people have come to terms with me being a pretty intelligent person with a real understanding of how things work. The problem have with me is that I have a condescending tone and that I'm an asshole about how I point things out. Saying something like the above basically only states that you can't believe you're agreeing with someone... that generally is correct about things, even if he's an asshole about it. Which means, you can't believe you are... being right about something.
And even with this, you're not even agreeing with me completely. Because you CAN wear a shirt with two naked men on it, that is tasteful and say "Gay is beautiful". It's not the fact that there's naked men, it has to be graphic. An unborn fetus is graphic, naked men MAY or MAY NOT be graphic.
Sorry about that. I was just trying to be a smart ass. No offense intended.
Seriously though, your point made sense. I guess what I meant to say if someone was wearing the naked men shirt to school with the men on the shirt engaging in actions that would be deemed, "adult", that it would be incorrect. The message wouldn't be the issue.
Aside from that...
This subject reminded me of something I heard on Len Tillem's program on KGO. He's a lawyer who give free legal advice to people who call in from 12-1 PM Mon-Fri, and 4-7 on Sunday. (No, not an advertisement.)
A lady had called in, and was asking about what her rights were, in regards to this guy who held his own little "protest" thing across the street from her apartment. He would always put up huge posters of dead fetuses in a kind of pro-life thing. She was saying it was wrong because school children have to walk by because the school is nearby. And when she went to "politely" (I say it in quotes cause that's what she SAID) complain that the signs were offensive and that little children could easily see them, he got in HER face and started getting on her about how SHE was offended by the signs, but not that the "babies are being killed by abortion."
I guess the reason I brought that up, is that it just seems to me that people who push this type of agenda, thinks that everybody BUT them is WRONG, and that the rest of the world should conform to their beliefs, regardless of how in the minority or majority they are.
My opinion, there's a fine line between being dedicated, and just being plain obnoxious.
*NOTE*
I apologize for gross generalities I made that are HORRIBLE incorrect and misinformed. I brought up this to further the discussion, which I feel I was in danger of de-railing.
It IS freedom of speech, but there is a time and place for that. School does not happen to be one of those places O.o. As for the law suit, I dont think that it should be pushed THAT far >.<. I mean if a teacher deems a shirt inappropriate for school, you should take it off, and it should not even be an issue.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine on this subject I will not share. But school was not the time or place to share this one on a shirt.
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 24, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
It IS freedom of speech, but there is a time and place for that. School does not happen to be one of those places O.o. As for the law suit, I dont think that it should be pushed THAT far >.<. I mean if a teacher deems a shirt inappropriate for school, you should take it off, and it should not even be an issue.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine on this subject I will not share. But school was not the time or place to share this one on a shirt.
Not to sound like an ass, or a moron, or a prick, but let me say something at the risk of sounding like an ass, a moron, or a prick. That actually reminds me of this book I read...(I can't remember the title) Where the main character talks about this one girl who had a t-shirt the said, "Two of the Nicest Things about Bunker Hill Bluffs (Boobs), and the teacher said it was innapropriate for school and would have to be removed. She said OK and took her shirt off right in class. Sorry, that's just what it reminded me of.
Seriously though, I agree. The issue was not about the meaning of the message on the shirt, it was about the "graphic" nature of the way it was shown. I could have a shirt that says "Murder is evil!" and have a mutilated corpse on the shirt, and THAT would be wrong.
Quote from: SukebeStudios on November 25, 2009, 12:08:44 AM
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 24, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
It IS freedom of speech, but there is a time and place for that. School does not happen to be one of those places O.o. As for the law suit, I dont think that it should be pushed THAT far >.<. I mean if a teacher deems a shirt inappropriate for school, you should take it off, and it should not even be an issue.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine on this subject I will not share. But school was not the time or place to share this one on a shirt.
Not to sound like an ass, or a moron, or a prick, but let me say something at the risk of sounding like an ass, a moron, or a prick. That actually reminds me of this book I read...(I can't remember the title) Where the main character talks about this one girl who had a t-shirt the said, "Two of the Nicest Things about Bunker Hill Bluffs (Boobs), and the teacher said it was innapropriate for school and would have to be removed. She said OK and took her shirt off right in class. Sorry, that's just what it reminded me of.
Seriously though, I agree. The issue was not about the meaning of the message on the shirt, it was about the "graphic" nature of the way it was shown. I could have a shirt that says "Murder is evil!" and have a mutilated corpse on the shirt, and THAT would be wrong.
ah true, do we even know what the shirt looked like? I mean if someone can find an article that shows the shirt. Because thinking about this topic.
Did it just say "Pro Life?" Or did it say something that may offend or have a picture of like an aborted fetus?... And yea SukebeStudios your right about if you had a shirt like that. People these days sometimes tend to take things out of proportion, and I am not saying I am a saint in the matter either lol
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 25, 2009, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: SukebeStudios on November 25, 2009, 12:08:44 AM
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 24, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
It IS freedom of speech, but there is a time and place for that. School does not happen to be one of those places O.o. As for the law suit, I dont think that it should be pushed THAT far >.<. I mean if a teacher deems a shirt inappropriate for school, you should take it off, and it should not even be an issue.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine on this subject I will not share. But school was not the time or place to share this one on a shirt.
Not to sound like an ass, or a moron, or a prick, but let me say something at the risk of sounding like an ass, a moron, or a prick. That actually reminds me of this book I read...(I can't remember the title) Where the main character talks about this one girl who had a t-shirt the said, "Two of the Nicest Things about Bunker Hill Bluffs (Boobs), and the teacher said it was innapropriate for school and would have to be removed. She said OK and took her shirt off right in class. Sorry, that's just what it reminded me of.
Seriously though, I agree. The issue was not about the meaning of the message on the shirt, it was about the "graphic" nature of the way it was shown. I could have a shirt that says "Murder is evil!" and have a mutilated corpse on the shirt, and THAT would be wrong.
ah true, do we even know what the shirt looked like? I mean if someone can find an article that shows the shirt. Because thinking about this topic.
Did it just say "Pro Life?" Or did it say something that may offend or have a picture of like an aborted fetus?... And yea SukebeStudios your right about if you had a shirt like that. People these days sometimes tend to take things out of proportion, and I am not saying I am a saint in the matter either lol
From what I understand, the T-shirt was a simple "Pro Life" shirt, but it had the picture of a dead human fetus on it. And it was the image of the dead fetus that caused the problem.
Quote from: SukebeStudios on November 25, 2009, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 25, 2009, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: SukebeStudios on November 25, 2009, 12:08:44 AM
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 24, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
It IS freedom of speech, but there is a time and place for that. School does not happen to be one of those places O.o. As for the law suit, I dont think that it should be pushed THAT far >.<. I mean if a teacher deems a shirt inappropriate for school, you should take it off, and it should not even be an issue.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine on this subject I will not share. But school was not the time or place to share this one on a shirt.
Not to sound like an ass, or a moron, or a prick, but let me say something at the risk of sounding like an ass, a moron, or a prick. That actually reminds me of this book I read...(I can't remember the title) Where the main character talks about this one girl who had a t-shirt the said, "Two of the Nicest Things about Bunker Hill Bluffs (Boobs), and the teacher said it was innapropriate for school and would have to be removed. She said OK and took her shirt off right in class. Sorry, that's just what it reminded me of.
Seriously though, I agree. The issue was not about the meaning of the message on the shirt, it was about the "graphic" nature of the way it was shown. I could have a shirt that says "Murder is evil!" and have a mutilated corpse on the shirt, and THAT would be wrong.
ah true, do we even know what the shirt looked like? I mean if someone can find an article that shows the shirt. Because thinking about this topic.
Did it just say "Pro Life?" Or did it say something that may offend or have a picture of like an aborted fetus?... And yea SukebeStudios your right about if you had a shirt like that. People these days sometimes tend to take things out of proportion, and I am not saying I am a saint in the matter either lol
From what I understand, the T-shirt was a simple "Pro Life" shirt, but it had the picture of a dead human fetus on it. And it was the image of the dead fetus that caused the problem.
yeah the message is good, BUT the human fetus it is a bit much for school. Thats my point exactly, as I said earlier, there is a time and place for an opinion. School is not one.
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 26, 2009, 08:50:14 PM
yeah the message is good, BUT the human fetus it is a bit much for school. Thats my point exactly, as I said earlier, there is a time and place for an opinion. School is not one.
What're you talking about. School is a perfect place for opinion. Unless you really believe that everyone should just conform to what everyone else does, thinks is popular, and be happy with that whenever they're at school.
If you had even read this god damned thread, you would have known what was on the shirt, and exactly what we were talking about.
Opinions are opinions, and it's great to have them. On topics like this where there is no real "right or wrong" then it's fine to voice and have your opinion. What isn't is forcing people to see grotesque images in a faulty attempt to be "controversial to get your message out.
Next time... read the entire thread before you reply to it.
Quote from: PyronIkari on November 28, 2009, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 26, 2009, 08:50:14 PM
yeah the message is good, BUT the human fetus it is a bit much for school. Thats my point exactly, as I said earlier, there is a time and place for an opinion. School is not one.
What're you talking about. School is a perfect place for opinion. Unless you really believe that everyone should just conform to what everyone else does, thinks is popular, and be happy with that whenever they're at school.
If you had even read this god damned thread, you would have known what was on the shirt, and exactly what we were talking about.
Opinions are opinions, and it's great to have them. On topics like this where there is no real "right or wrong" then it's fine to voice and have your opinion. What isn't is forcing people to see grotesque images in a faulty attempt to be "controversial to get your message out.
Next time... read the entire thread before you reply to it.
If everyone is entitled to my opinion, then why did you just shoot mine down. I do not believe school is a good place for an opinion. Especially one so controversial as abortion. And please do not swear at me.
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 28, 2009, 07:45:02 PM
If everyone is entitled to my opinion, then why did you just shoot mine down. I do not believe school is a good place for an opinion. Especially one so controversial as abortion. And please do not swear at me.
Oh god... did you just try to use this logic?
The idea of everyone can have an opinion means that you are allowed to speak it and have it. It does in no way protect you from allowing others to comment on your opinions.
School is the biggest outlet children have. It's where they form ideas and opinions of the outside world. You realize, the point of school is to nurture things like growing up in society, cliques, politics and opinions. Although school teaches "education" the major key point is that it prepares you for adult life... You're saying that they should remove this aspect from schools? That they should remain blind and innocent until we throw them out to college where they will have these opinions shoved down their throats?
But let's play the parallel game.
Yay, I looked at your facebook. You have piercings, dress a very specific style, and there's common themes within your interests. Are you saying, you displayed none of this in school? Your long hair itself is a statement and an opinion that was displayed in school. It was an outlet, and people judged you based on it. Or did you tie it up and put on a wig? Did you conform your dress completely and dress nothing like you wanted to... as to not put out an opinion or voice when you were at school?
Things like having opinions on pro-life is not very different than that. It's not very different than the nerdy kids walking around with D&D books, or the kids that had Jesus fish on their cars. They're all opinions and they're all statements. Or are you stating that Catholic children are not allowed to be driven to school, or drive to school with a Jesus fish on their car? That kids that draw the anarchy symbol on their folders, and wear pins on their backpacks with all kind of punk slogans, should be banned from school. The "Go Green" people should clearly be suspended since having opinions at school is something that shouldn't be. That kids proud of their relatives in the armed forces displaying it with their support of the military should be forced to remove all support, because that opinion shouldn't be at school according to you.
The problem isn't opinions... people should have opinions.
I could swear Pyron was a stalker if not for Kat's facebook link on the profile...
There should be opinions and free speech in schools, but I don't think there is a carte blanche right to say or convey anything you want, especially in an educational environment. I think this walks the line on what should or should not be permitted in the school. In the end, it is up to the discretion of administrators until a court rules on it. Granted the court is a little conservative right now, but they agree that if it disrupts the school's mission of education then there is discretion to limit free speech rights. http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/
Quote from: ewu on November 29, 2009, 03:44:43 PM
I could swear Pyron was a stalker if not for Kat's facebook link on the profile...
what did you mean by this ewu? O.o
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 29, 2009, 04:26:10 PM
what did you mean by this ewu? O.o
That he would go so far as to look up your facebook to support his argument, but it being on your forum profile makes him less stalkerish.
But in the end Pyron is right that free thinking should be fostered in school and encouraged. However, Kat conveys that the shirt may have crossed the line; Pyron has said this in an earlier post too. The first amendment clearly has limits, where that line is will and should be interpreted by the courts.
Quote from: PyronIkari on November 29, 2009, 12:21:22 PM
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 28, 2009, 07:45:02 PM
If everyone is entitled to my opinion, then why did you just shoot mine down. I do not believe school is a good place for an opinion. Especially one so controversial as abortion. And please do not swear at me.
Oh god... did you just try to use this logic?
The idea of everyone can have an opinion means that you are allowed to speak it and have it. It does in no way protect you from allowing others to comment on your opinions.
School is the biggest outlet children have. It's where they form ideas and opinions of the outside world. You realize, the point of school is to nurture things like growing up in society, cliques, politics and opinions. Although school teaches "education" the major key point is that it prepares you for adult life... You're saying that they should remove this aspect from schools? That they should remain blind and innocent until we throw them out to college where they will have these opinions shoved down their throats?
But let's play the parallel game.
Yay, I looked at your facebook. You have piercings, dress a very specific style, and there's common themes within your interests. Are you saying, you displayed none of this in school? Your long hair itself is a statement and an opinion that was displayed in school. It was an outlet, and people judged you based on it. Or did you tie it up and put on a wig? Did you conform your dress completely and dress nothing like you wanted to... as to not put out an opinion or voice when you were at school?
Things like having opinions on pro-life is not very different than that. It's not very different than the nerdy kids walking around with D&D books, or the kids that had Jesus fish on their cars. They're all opinions and they're all statements. Or are you stating that Catholic children are not allowed to be driven to school, or drive to school with a Jesus fish on their car? That kids that draw the anarchy symbol on their folders, and wear pins on their backpacks with all kind of punk slogans, should be banned from school. The "Go Green" people should clearly be suspended since having opinions at school is something that shouldn't be. That kids proud of their relatives in the armed forces displaying it with their support of the military should be forced to remove all support, because that opinion shouldn't be at school according to you.
The problem isn't opinions... people should have opinions.
Pyron you are missing the point ENTIRELY! -.-Freedom of religion is a different thing. Its not even the focus on the subject other than some religious people are "pro-life". You ARE ALLOWED to have opinions. I NEVER SAID YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO! I am quite the opinionated person myself.
Two- HOW you viewed ANYTHING on my FaceBook is beyond me, I have that thing set to private. How I dress is NONE of your concern. I dress like many other kids my age. Graphic (usually anime, or video game) tee, maybe a band tee, pants and converse. I dont dress to impress OR make a statement. I toss on whatever is clean at the moment. And so what I have piercings, I also am planning on tattoos, again NOT to make a statement, or anything. It is because I like body art. I think it is a beautiful form of art. If you wish to go on thinking otherwise thats fine.
Back on track, what does this have to do with the "Pro-Life" law suit? My whole argument focus is THAT SHIRT. Not how I dress, not how you or anyone else dresses; just that shirt. So you can go and play your "Parallel Game" but make a point that is relevant to the subject. O.o
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 29, 2009, 07:57:31 PM
Pyron you are missing the point ENTIRELY! -.-Freedom of religion is a different thing. Its not even the focus on the subject other than some religious people are "pro-life". You ARE ALLOWED to have opinions. I NEVER SAID YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO! I am quite the opinionated person myself.
Two- HOW you viewed ANYTHING on my FaceBook is beyond me, I have that thing set to private. How I dress is NONE of your concern. I dress like many other kids my age. Graphic (usually anime, or video game) tee, maybe a band tee, pants and converse. I dont dress to impress OR make a statement. I toss on whatever is clean at the moment. And so what I have piercings, I also am planning on tattoos, again NOT to make a statement, or anything. It is because I like body art. I think it is a beautiful form of art. If you wish to go on thinking otherwise thats fine.
Back on track, what does this have to do with the "Pro-Life" law suit? My whole argument focus is THAT SHIRT. Not how I dress, not how you or anyone else dresses; just that shirt. So you can go and play your "Parallel Game" but make a point that is relevant to the subject. O.o
I'm not missing the point entirely... you are. And this was made incredibly obvious by your PM's. I didn't judge you at all. Yet you keep saying that I did, and I am. And that I'm insulting you. Please point out where exactly I insult you.
And then you backpedal in this post of yours.
Freedom of religion is not something different at all. Frankly it's exactly the same. It's self expression and opinion. You stated that "opinions do not belong in school". I pointed out examples of how they are regularly in school, and belong in school. How you dress is indeed none of my concern, and frankly I don't give a crap at all how you dress, but it was relevant to this conversation. Expression is part of opinion. There is a huge debate about this, and frankly your mentality isn't that much different from them at all.
Where am I getting at? School uniforms. Many people believer that every school should have a uniform code.
You had no focus. Because we already pretty much confirmed that the school took action because of the graphic image on the shirt, and not because of the stance the shirt was taking. YOU then stated that opinions don't belong in school, which had jack nothing to do with the shirt in itself. If she wants to support pro-life by wearing a shirt, then more power to her. She crossed the line when the shirt contained graphic images that others were forced to see.
Opinion is about your self, not others. You can't force people to swallow your opinion. There's a difference between walking around in a "Homosexual marriage shirt" and Stopping people and yelling at them and telling them to support homosexual marriage out of the blue.
Not *IF* I can predict correctly, you are now thinking "well isn't that what you're doing now, forcing us to listen to your opinion...
In which case I say, no. I'm presenting it, and proving how my opinion is supported by reasoning over your opinion which is... just an opinion. But more importantly... you gave up the right of not having people argue points and reasoning the moment you posted in this section of the forums... that's the point of this forum. Serious discussions, debates, and points of reasoning. If you don't like being told your opinion is wrong, or you hate being shown that what you think is stupid, then don't post in here.
Quote from: PyronIkari on November 29, 2009, 08:35:01 PM
I'm not missing the point entirely... you are.
Not even. You keep going on tangents about freedom of religion, and other forms of freedom of speech. Stuff like drawing an anarchy symbol on a folder, army symbols, Catholicism symbols and going green are a LITTLE bit different than Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice. Those two are controversial subjects.
As I keep TRYING to state, there is a time and a place for opinions this controversial. School is not that time or place to state that kind of opinion.
As ewu said
Quote from: ewu on November 29, 2009, 04:58:34 PM
The first amendment clearly has limits, where that line is will and should be interpreted by the courts.
I agree 100%
Quote from: Kuromi_Kat on November 29, 2009, 09:03:33 PM
Not even. You keep going on tangents about freedom of religion, and other forms of freedom of speech. Stuff like drawing an anarchy symbol on a folder, army symbols, Catholicism symbols and going green are a LITTLE bit different than Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice. Those two are controversial subjects.
As I keep TRYING to state, there is a time and a place for opinions this controversial. School is not that time or place to state that kind of opinion.
Really. You honestly think that Pro-life/Pro-choice is controversial, but religion and what not in schools isn't? The religion issue has been going on for decades, and more people get the crap beat out of them, there's more law-suits, and more problems that stem from religion in school than will ever come up with Pro-life/Pro-choice.
But freedoms are freedoms. You're saying that they're not the same, but they are. Because they're freedoms of expressions, it doesn't matter the "magnitude". If you disallow people to have freedoms to express their opinion in one way, then where do you draw the line for it? So you're saying, because "Pro-life/Pro-choice" is "serious" then it shouldn't be allowed? Religion is definitely serious to others. Dress is serious to some people, and many things you may deem as "not close to the same level", hundreds of others will say are BIGGER deals.
So even if you worded it completely horribly and didn't mean
Quotethere is a time and place for an opinion. School is not one.
You're still putting standards on what kids can and cannot express while they're in school.
If you can't follow the line of logic, and think what I talked about are "tangents" you seriously need to not be posting in this section of the forum.
Catholic symbols, going green, the military, are ALL controversial subjects.
Kuromi_Kat I recommend actually doing research on what you're talking about, and knowing what you're talking about first before you post in this section of the boards, or you're targeted by PyronIkari. I've just skimmed the posts (just because I've been REALLY busy the past couple of days) but I recommend stopping, you're going nowhere.
This thread is still alive? I could have swore it was aborted back in July....but now here we are in the third trimester and I think somebody is about to have a cow. :D
So, what have we learned here today kids? Let's review:
1.) Speech is free.
2.) Graphic imagery is not.
3.) It's dumb to argue about arguing.
4.) It's dumb to argue about what is controversal and what is not.
5.) Don't ressurect dead threads.
6.) Don't disrespect Mikey about agreeing with him.
7.) Don't try to argue with Mikey and expect to not get offended by the differing opinions.