I think one of the worst things a con has is pointless peace bonding rules.
I don't see how a zip tie is keeping anyone safe at a con, I see stupid kids at cons swinging around wooden bokkens all the time and they usually have a Peace bonding zip tie on them. So the zip tie isn't working for safety.
Also for a lot of the cosplayers who take the time and money for nice props, Peace bonding usually damages paint jobs or can even break parts, especially when staff insists on Peace bonding a prop for you.
Honestly I don't see the point at all, if a staffer sees an item that isn't allowed at the con , they're guna tell the person take it back to their room or out of the con ANYWAYS, So what's the point of the zip tie, if something is allowed its allowed and if its not its not.
This will get messy really quick unless you pick a topic from the get-go. We'll have people complaining about the rules on one hand, and how they're enforced in another. It seems like you want to debate the latter, so I'll try to explain the reasons behind zip ties.
Quote from: honnou on February 06, 2010, 05:40:35 AM
I don't see how a zip tie is keeping anyone safe at a con, I see stupid kids at cons swinging around wooden bokkens all the time and they usually have a Peace bonding zip tie on them. So the zip tie isn't working for safety.
The zip tie isn't always meant to tie things together - it can also denote that a prop was inspected by a staff member and was deemed ok. If you're saying that people are breaking the ties and swinging their props around, then you should tell a member of Rovers about it. (I know - "That's not my job, that's the staff's job" - but keeping an eye out only helps everyone.)
QuoteAlso for a lot of the cosplayers who take the time and money for nice props, Peace bonding usually damages paint jobs or can even break parts,...
That's really unfortunate, but it's the reality of bringing out a prop: there's a chance it could get damaged. Of course, staff need to take care when handling things, so it's a valid point.
Quote...especially when staff insists on Peace bonding a prop for you.
Staff would have to do it, or at least supervise. My guess: it's probably simpler and faster to have a staffer doing the bonding, and the majority of the time, there's no damage.
QuoteHonestly I don't see the point at all, if a staffer sees an item that isn't allowed at the con , they're guna tell the person take it back to their room or out of the con ANYWAYS, So what's the point of the zip tie, if something is allowed its allowed and if its not its not.
It allows people to bring props that would otherwise fall in a gray area. Otherwise, conventions would need to have a zero-tolerance approach, and outright deny everything that could be a danger. If these events were
not in the context of a convention, that would definitely be the case. Peace bonding is a way of merging the wants of the costume enthusiast with the realities of the rest of the world.
when trying to research the history or information about the subject I actually found a wikipedia entry ---
----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace-bonding
Peace-bonding
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the Canadian law, see Peace bond.
A peace-bonding is a conspicuous lock, tie, or mark which makes or identifies something as unusable as a weapon, that is, that the owner's intentions are purely peaceful.
At some conventions or public events, attendees carry real weapons or costume props that appear to be weapons. To prevent attendees from using real weapons at such events, the security team peace-bonds anything that might look like a weapon.
The event's weapons policy may offer subjective criteria to determine what looks like a weapon. For example, a weapons policy may require a peace-bond for anything that a reasonable person might recognize as a weapon from a short distance in dim light. Real weapons, if allowed, are disabled, secured, and marked. For example, bright orange zip ties may be used to hold a sword in a scabbard or to hold a pistol in a holster. Simulated or costume props may require conspicuous marks, such as bright ribbons or zip ties, to show that security has deemed them safe to carry. Simulated weapons or props which can be used as a weapon may be disabled or secured just like real weapons.
Peace-bonding helps security control prevent attendees from bringing or using real weapons to the event; anything that looks like a weapon but which is not peace-bonded is immediately suspicious.
This term is used at science fiction and fantasy conventions.
----
I dont know why you seem so upset by this "pointless" rule. -
the point is simple ---> it shows that said Cosplayer took the time to seek out [Fanime] staff and wanted to make sure their weapon prop was inspected to be OK for public use. I'm not sure if you noticed but Fanime [as well as most other Conventions around the nation] have a Prop & Weapons Policies in place as well.
the zip tie represents a visual reminder that a verbal agreement has been made that the specific Con-ger with specific Costume with proper weapon prop accessory will abide by not only LAWS enforced by say the state of California, but additional safety guidelines set by the convention.
hypothetically if an accident were to occur [knock on wood] - We'd like to hope [insert random legal mumbo jumbo] that they wouldnt try to shut down Fanime or worse try to sue the pants off this organization. if there was somehow 'proof' showing that the prop handler was spoken to about rules and safety... ---> hence the reason for the visual peace bond tie is on the prop itself.
The vast majority of Cosplayers have complied with this peace bonding rules for some time now. So again I dont know why your so against the idea of the safety rules itself or specially you have issues with the "zip ties" themselves.
Your point is valid about "damage" though. As I've mentioned in the Weapons Prop question thread, your not the first person to complain about damage from the zip ties and I doubt you'll be the last. We try our best to keep our training as consistent as possible and we know that some people spend time on money on their props but things will happen and we will try to accommodate on a case by case scenario---
if you do have a major concern you'd like to discuss please feel free to contact Rovers Department via e-mail.
in short the rules and zip ties are there for a reason :) and if you still feel otherwise, please bring up any other points I may have missed
I can't believe that I'd be on the other side of the fence on this one. It seems like someone started this thread because they felt wronged by the staffers and want to try to get people on their side. Like I'm often accused of (which is only true half the time, lol.) But regardless, here's my two cents, however you want to spend them.
Quote from: honnou on February 06, 2010, 05:40:35 AMI don't see how a zip tie is keeping anyone safe at a con, I see stupid kids at cons swinging around wooden bokkens all the time and they usually have a Peace bonding zip tie on them. So the zip tie isn't working for safety.
Again, agreeing with Tony, why AREN'T you reporting this to Rovers? And...to a degree, they CAN keep people safe at a con. Since they started selling weapons in the Dealer's room, (swords for example) they can zip-tie the hilt of the sword to the scabbard so they're unable to unsheathe the blade. Very SMALL degree of security, but still makes sense nonetheless.
Quote from: honnou on February 06, 2010, 05:40:35 AMAlso for a lot of the cosplayers who take the time and money for nice props, Peace bonding usually damages paint jobs or can even break parts, especially when staff insists on Peace bonding a prop for you.
Not to sound cold hearted, but, too bad. Rules supercede your efforts to make something look good.
Quote from: honnou on February 06, 2010, 05:40:35 AMHonestly I don't see the point at all, if a staffer sees an item that isn't allowed at the con , they're guna tell the person take it back to their room or out of the con ANYWAYS, So what's the point of the zip tie, if something is allowed its allowed and if its not its not.
Are you serious? If they zip-tie it, it means con ops deemed it safe enough to carry around at the con. If they tell you to take it back to the hotel room, then they didn't deem it safe enough. THAT'S THE POINT OF THE ZIP TIE. That's the main point of the zip-tie, ID for the Rovers so they can tell by a glance that your weapon/prop has been approved.
I would like to hear Mikey's take on this, he'd be able to put it better than I could.
I guess we're guna have to agree to disagree on this one .
I really don't see the point of the zip tie. If think if a staffer see's something that he or she knows isn't allowed ( assuming they know ) then they take action that is needed that should be it. They already look anyways for the zip tie.
i dont know , it doesn't seem like the best way to handle the problem. i guess being a cosplayer this is the side of argument I'm on , and i understand that you guys being staff will think the other side.
it makes me wonder what other alternatives are available then a zip tie?
You guys? I'm not staff, and I AM a cosplayer, so your argument that cosplayers and staff are going to differ? CRITICAL FAIL. BTW, in your whining and complaining that the Peace Bonding is stupid, why haven't you come up with a better solution? I don't think that you could, because you started a debate, and we gave you arguments on our side why it makes sense. You chose not to address them and rather avoid counter arguments, and not offer a solution. What were you trying to get out of this thread, which OBVIOUSLY wasn't an alternative solution?
Actually, I think you have to agree, period. The con has established rules and these are one that the con is not at all likely to dispense with.
The peace bonders have training that almost all the staff do not have. It would be impractical and virtually impossible for that training, so the remainder of the staff must rely on common sense that does not comport with the con's weapons policy. That is what the ties are for, to supplement for the impossibility of training and the insufficient common sense of the untrained staff.
Simply talk to the people peace bonding people to ask how they will be bonding it. They try their best, but they are not as familiar with your prop as you are. Working with them is the best way to ensure your prop is not damaged.
If you have some other option that you think will meet our need please share, but bear in mind that our current method has been adapted over the years and is a time tested method.
oh and real world concerns: unfettered allowance of weapons and the accidents that accompany that lead to higher insurance premiums that the convention and city mandate we have....aka no peace bonding = much higher attendance costs or no con at all...YAY LIABILITY!
Quote from: honnou on February 06, 2010, 08:16:39 PM
it makes me wonder what other alternatives are available then a zip tie?
I'd love to hear the discussion on this one - surely by now there's some technology that might be useful... though it's honestly harder to get much simpler and cheaper than zip ties. Maybe something like a hand stamp that's only visible under blacklight...
Quote from: ewu on February 06, 2010, 09:03:17 PM
oh and real world concerns: unfettered allowance of weapons and the accidents that accompany that lead to higher insurance premiums that the convention and city mandate we have....aka no peace bonding = much higher attendance costs or no con at all...YAY LIABILITY!
That's a pretty good point in general. There's all kinds of crazy things we could allow - for example, we COULD sell alcohol - but as soon as that happens, we are required to hire police and our insurance skyrockets, to start. Not to mention the PR hit if anything went wrong.
Oh well , you cant win them all ;)
Thanks all you guys for replying
It's understandable for peace-bonding, but I just find it troublesome that the sword and sheath are bonded together. Again it's understandable if it's a metal sword or whatnot, but if it's wooden, either accept it or don't. A lot of cosplayer's poses depend upon being able to use their unsheathed sword. I had the problem last time since I had a steel sword and obviously I couldn't unsheathe it; but when I bought a wooden version on con grounds, I got it tagged again and they made it so I couldn't take the sword out.
Now you could argue that if you don't want that, just bring the sword itself, and not the scabbard. But really, if I'm going to be walking around 10+ hours at the con, I don't want to have to carry around a sword, however light, especially if I'm going to be grabbing stuff from the dealer's room.
tl;dr - If the sword is acceptable, tag the sword, don't bind it to the scabbard; cosplayers want to be able to pose. If it's not acceptable, don't accept it.
We have discussed this among senior staff since the inception of FanimeCon and unfortunately zip ties are the best compromise to allow cosplayers to even have faux weapons on convention grounds. Well, let's put it this way, if there was no peace bonding, things would be very different.
For example, if we allowed weapons to be on site without peace bonding, we would have to compensate by having enough police presence to properly watch over attendees which was 14,000+ as of FanimeCon 2009. The huge problem not only by having a small army of police at the con, would be paying for these fine uniformed individuals. The money would have to come from the events themselves. It would suck to have to get rid of MusicFest, Stage Zero, Black and White Ball, Masquerade, etc. or have the attendees not have con-derived hotel discounts to pay for the necessary police.
When you throw in the liability and our skyrocketing premiums, FanimeCon may not exist beyond another year or two.
Sure, it sounds drastic to put the peace bonding in these terms but imagine telling our insurance carrier about 14,000 attendees who have weapons out and we are allowing them to wave them around, even if just for pictures. I don't know about you, but I see an insurance agent-shaped cloud and our insurance policies with big red VOIDs on them.
So we do what we can to bring you the best show and sometimes that means doing things you don't want to do like peace bonding. Consider them your yearly 'doctor's shots' that keep you healthy the rest of the year.
I think peace bonding is much better than banning any and all types of weapons and props (plastic guns, paper mache swords, walking staff) altogether.
Quote from: Pimpstress Rei on February 08, 2010, 12:37:53 AM-
Yeah for sure. Even OP has conceded the point, but do you guys understand the point that I'm making? That while peace-bonding is necessary, the method by which they peace-bond the weapons should be looked into.
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: Pimpstress Rei on February 08, 2010, 12:37:53 AM-
Yeah for sure. Even OP has conceded the point, but do you guys understand the point that I'm making? That while peace-bonding is necessary, the method by which they peace-bond the weapons should be looked into.
as mentioned before--- I'll go to my higher ups with the Rovers Department and share the concerns I've read from these threads and we'll re-examine the " zip tie / peace bonding " process.
now again if you have a specific example, or if you want to take it a step further and identify who [out of the Fanime Rovers staff] had either "damaged" or your opinion "incorrectly" zip tied your weapon/item/prop then please e-mail our heads. and we'll investigate each claim case by case. This will help us re-evaluate the tie-off process and how to minimize issues.
considering that we do have 14,000+ attendees and maybe from my count about 10 or so complaints about "peace bonds" thats actually not a horrible ratio.
I'd rather have valid complains about zip ties than having to fill out incident or accident reports due to injured Con goers and unchecked weapons running rampant.
Something to think about- and why Fanime Con goers & Cosplayers alike have fun at one of the biggest and best Conventions around. :)
Please keep the comments, concerns, and questions coming.
We'll do our best to help you. Remember By Fans for Fans [and for Fun!] :D
It's not a matter of them putting on the peace-bonds incorrectly or damaging anything for me. It's, as I stated, leaning towards the method of peace-bonding (in cosplayers with sheathed swords cases, them being sealed from further use) rather than the policy of peace-bonding itself. I've conceded and so has OP that peace-bonding is okay and good, but (and no, I don't have soild examples except for people I know personally) most cosplayers with sheathed swords dread having to go to rovers because then the poses they want to get done can no longer be done.
Sure you can say it's in the name of safety, but if so, you might as well peace-bond scabbardless swords to people's cosplays as well, since we don't want the sword to be used in a bad manner.
Sarcasm aside, I can't point out names not only because I don't know any of your names, even after 6 years or so of attendance, but because it's not incorrectly done by current policy. If I had to revise the rule of peace-bonding for your rovers, it'd be this:
While all legal weapons, assuming they are eligible to be brought on the con, whether functional or not, are required to be peace-bonded, the peace-bond should be placed on the sword itself rather than the sword and sheath interlocked. If, in any case, the sheath is freely wielded (Not bound to the person in question, but instead held by hand), both the sheath and sword are to be peace-bonded. If a weapon is ineligible to be carried around unsheathed, then it should then and only then be bonded to the sheath, with the cosplayer's request being the only other exception to this rule.
In other words, people carry around wooden swords (boken, shinai, etc.) therefore all wooden swords and otherwise should be allowed outside of their respective sheaths. Not only would this rule have precedent backing it's implementation (note previous sentence), but it would improve the cosplay experience for those it would affect.
/thread.
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 11:16:21 AM
It's not a matter of them putting on the peace-bonds incorrectly or damaging anything for me. It's, as I stated, leaning towards the method of peace-bonding (in cosplayers with sheathed swords cases, them being sealed from further use) rather than the policy of peace-bonding itself. I've conceded and so has OP that peace-bonding is okay and good, but (and no, I don't have soild examples except for people I know personally) most cosplayers with sheathed swords dread having to go to rovers because then the poses they want to get done can no longer be done.
Sure you can say it's in the name of safety, but if so, you might as well peace-bond scabbardless swords to people's cosplays as well, since we don't want the sword to be used in a bad manner.
Sarcasm aside, I can't point out names not only because I don't know any of your names, even after 6 years or so of attendance, but because it's not incorrectly done by current policy. If I had to revise the rule of peace-bonding for your rovers, it'd be this:
While all legal weapons, assuming they are eligible to be brought on the con, whether functional or not, are required to be peace-bonded, the peace-bond should be placed on the sword itself rather than the sword and sheath interlocked. If, in any case, the sheath is freely wielded (Not bound to the person in question, but instead held by hand), both the sheath and sword are to be peace-bonded. If a weapon is ineligible to be carried around unsheathed, then it should then and only then be bonded to the sheath, with the cosplayer's request being the only other exception to this rule.
In other words, people carry around wooden swords (boken, shinai, etc.) therefore all wooden swords and otherwise should be allowed outside of their respective sheaths. Not only would this rule have precedent backing it's implementation (note previous sentence), but it would improve the cosplay experience for those it would affect.
/thread.
I didn't want to post in this because it was mostly opinion and "I don't like because..." crap. But Divine Chaos' posts got to me.
GET OVER YOURSELF.
You're whining because your sheathed bokken was peacebonded to be unable to be removed from the sheath. DO you know why this is?
OF COURSE NOT, because you don't care to know. Unsheathing a sword is illegal. Yes... it doesn't matter that it's wooden, but it LOOKS real. If a sword LOOKS real and is unsheated, a cop can shoot you on the spot.
Some fun rules in terms of law. It is 100% legal to walk around with a sheathed sword(in most areas) as long as the sword is in completely plain site (concealed weapons law). Now, if you look like you're going to unsheathe the sword, a police offer can and will draw his weapon and stop you and at that point can confiscate the weapon. If you DO unsheathe the sword that's the same as showing aggression, or in a different light, cocking the hammer of a gun, at which point an officer can fire upon you.
Now, let's say SJPD is walking around. They are not trained in recognizing what swords are specifically real or not. A bokken, that is roughly 3ft and identical in shape and size of a real metal katana is sheathed. And someone reaches and unsheathes the bokken, how would SJPD react? Do you think it's a bigger deal that you couldn't unsheathe your sword because of peace bonding(or why do you even own a sheathed bokken in the first place...) or a police officer drawing his weapon in the middle of a convention because he thought someone was unsheating a metal sword?
As I said... get over yourself. Your pose for a picture over the safety of 14,000 people? Over causing a huge scene where an officer pulled his firearm and pointed it at you, which would probably cause a huge panic and would have MAJOR consequences later.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 08, 2010, 01:58:35 PM
Previous record: 1 thread agreed, 1 thread disagree with stalemate. Let's see how this one turns out and have some fun, ne?
Your main argument seems to revolve around the fact that if you draw the sword, a police officer doesn't know if it's real or not, therefore will act accordingly (and justifiably so). The problem with this is that even an unconcealed weapon needs a permit (do you, or any cosplayer for that matter, have one? Didn't think so). But even so, your argument that a police officer will not know the difference between a real sword or not is moot, because look at this situation:
Cop is walking down the street and someone is carrying around a katana wielded freely. They won't react at all? I think not.
Therefore, using your same logic that police officers may react badly if they see a threatening weapon (since they have no power of observation, again according to your argument), ALL weapons wielded freely, all fake guns, all wooden swords, everything must be banned, because hey, someone might get shot.
My argument is based around the fact that swords without sheaths are tagged on the sword themselves, yet swords with sheaths are interlocked. Double standard? Maybe not an extremely double-standardish (I make up my own words from time to time, pardon that), but still a double standard nonetheless. Therefore if you ban swords that can be unsheathed, then you might as well ban ones that have no sheath at all (Because hey, penal code and yourself "If you DO unsheathe the sword that's the same as showing aggression, or in a different light, cocking the hammer of a gun, at which point an officer can fire upon you." say so).
Allowing the argument to pass that police may react badly will set the precedent needed to remove any unconcealed weapons
entirely from the con.
in an attempt to do some research -
Here is a link to penal codes about weapons in California.
its VERY lengthy so please see the link.
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html
if its Not allowed under according to this link - then likely it is not allowed at Fanime. Pretty simple i would think.
Heres the jist of it - regarding "Cane Swords" [swords in general]
***
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable
firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which
contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst
trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any
leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol,
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon
of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,
sandclub, sap, or sandbag.
***
(15) As used in this section, a "cane sword" means a cane, swagger
stick, stick, staff, rod, pole, umbrella, or similar device, having
concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stiletto.
So even answering a previous question--- even a walking stick or a Cane could be used as a weapon.
when mishandled by anyone in the general public--- so it would have to be checked out or peace bonded.
As far as tying it to a person to prevent a person "brandishing" it in an offensive pose again is understandibly [for me] an interesting debate.
again I'll have to discuss this further with our superiors and get the feedback from the Cosplay community--- for most part unless more Cosplayers come forward--- again I only count about maybe 10+ max-ish that have an issue from about 14,000+ attendees...
again if you have a specific example - with a name, photos of "damage" or a situation of staff/member harassment - please let us know Via e-mails only. Thanks!
Damn, a peace-keeper, that kills the fun =(
Yep I researched into it as well. Since I think the thread is done, you should check out the knife laws too, as swords could probably fit under that category (There's seems to be no explicit sword references made, since cane swords seems to refer more towards that French-type sword).
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 04:04:22 PM
Damn, a peace-keeper, that kills the fun =(
Yep I researched into it as well. Since I think the thread is done, you should check out the knife laws too, as swords could probably fit under that category (There's seems to be no explicit sword references made, since cane swords seems to refer more towards that French-type sword).
its using an "category of weapon" basically anything with/without a handle that could be swung around that could cause damage - generally speaking which covers, clubs, nunchucks, metal and non-metal blunt, and
melee attack weapons. essentially almost any hand propelled weapon.
we already have a rule on swords and bladed weapons though.
as in the
" NO LIVE STEEL " rule. that pretty much covers any metallic using weapons - which also includes, knives, swords, throwing items, etc etc.
I mean seriously--- there's making a cosplay authentic, and then theres everyone's safety you have to consider- its really not worth it when you have so many options that the cosplay community has made up to create such great and awesome props/weapons/ accessories and not be considered hazardous weapons of mass destruction. :)
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 03:42:59 PM
Previous record: 1 thread agreed, 1 thread disagree with stalemate. Let's see how this one turns out and have some fun, ne?
Your main argument seems to revolve around the fact that if you draw the sword, a police officer doesn't know if it's real or not, therefore will act accordingly (and justifiably so). The problem with this is that even an unconcealed weapon needs a permit (do you, or any cosplayer for that matter, have one? Didn't think so). But even so, your argument that a police officer will not know the difference between a real sword or not is moot, because look at this situation:
Not "ALL" unconcealed weapons need a permit to own. You do not need a permit to own a knife or sword. Only firearms require permits to legally own. Why do you think you need a permit to own a pocket knife or hunting knife when these can be purchased practically anywhere without valid background checks?
QuoteCop is walking down the street and someone is carrying around a katana wielded freely. They won't react at all? I think not.
Some will, but they are not required to by law. Many WON'T approach you but will keep an eye on you.
So far all you've replied with are false facts and conjecture.
QuoteTherefore, using your same logic that police officers may react badly if they see a threatening weapon (since they have no power of observation, again according to your argument), ALL weapons wielded freely, all fake guns, all wooden swords, everything must be banned, because hey, someone might get shot.
This makes no sense, nor does it even apply to my logic at all. The ACT of unsheathing a sword is considered an act of aggression. Fake guns that DO NOT have painted manufactured tips, are banned. You're not following my logic at all.
QuoteMy argument is based around the fact that swords without sheaths are tagged on the sword themselves, yet swords with sheaths are interlocked. Double standard? Maybe not an extremely double-standardish (I make up my own words from time to time, pardon that), but still a double standard nonetheless. Therefore if you ban swords that can be unsheathed, then you might as well ban ones that have no sheath at all (Because hey, penal code and yourself "If you DO unsheathe the sword that's the same as showing aggression, or in a different light, cocking the hammer of a gun, at which point an officer can fire upon you." say so).
It's not a double standard at all, and if you followed my logic you'd understand that. Unsheathing the sword is an issue. Holding a bokuto is not. SWINGING A BOKUTO is. The point is, is that if your bokuto is sheated.
There is no way to tell whether or not the sword is bokuto or live steel. There is no way to tell the difference at all unless you have a clear sheath.
This is undeniable correct?
You can't unsheathe a sword that doesn't have a sheathe. So there's no way to confuse that... that bokuto is not live steel. WHat part of this don't you understand? What part of this doesn't make sense?
Something that cannot be seen, can be confused for live steel, and there's no way to tell. So unsheathing the sword is seen as unsheathing a sword, whether it is metal or wood doesn't matter, because it's a sheathed sword that is being unsheathed with no indication. Walking around with an unsheated steel sword is banned... walking around with an unsheated bokuto is not illegal. Walking around with a sheathed bokuto looks just like a steel sword, so how is someone supposed to know?
Once more, this is just you whining about something because you couldn't do something you think you should be allowed to do without thinking about the reason why the rule exists. Then making grand exaggerations to reply?
QuoteAllowing the argument to pass that police may react badly will set the precedent needed to remove any unconcealed weapons entirely from the con.
YOU SEEM TO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT UNCONCEALED WEAPONS MEAN.
Unconcealed weapon means the object as a whole is hidden from view. Putting a gun in your pocket, hiding a sword under your coat, strapping a knife to your thigh. THis is a concealed weapon.
A holstered gun on your waist, a sheathed sword on your hip, these are UNCONCEALED WEAPONS, because they are in plain site.
The issue returns to. Unsheathing a sword is not allowed, and it is hard to differentiate between a wooden and metal sword when it is sheathed, so through safety, any sword being unsheated is seen as a danger.
Here, this will be more organized:
1. Topic I'M debating: Should the peace-badge placement be adjusted so that it does not hamper the activities of cosplayers?
a) Main sides seem to be safety vs. freedom (Expression?).
2. Question: Are you speaking as a staffer, con attendee, regular poster, or just devil's advocate?
3. Explanations on a couple things
A) Swords regardless of sheath or not, are props. Discriminating between the two is pointless. Why? Because:
B) If this was a case of outside con grounds, and in normal day life, your logic would prevail. The only reason there's an actual grey area here is because it's a convention, where such rules are a bit more lax, social or otherwise.
4. Drawing from point 3, subpoint A, I propose my solution:
"While all legal weapons, assuming they are eligible to be brought on the con, whether functional or not, are required to be peace-bonded, the peace-bond should be placed on the sword itself rather than the sword and sheath interlocked. If, in any case, the sheath is freely wielded (Not bound to the person in question, but instead held by hand), both the sheath and sword are to be peace-bonded. If a weapon is ineligible to be carried around unsheathed, then it should then and only then be bonded to the sheath, with the cosplayer's request being the only other exception to this rule."
5. Advantages
A) Allows for those in attendance to be able to express themselves freely for the entertainment of those that wish to take pictures, view, watch or otherwise observe the cosplayers in question.
B) While it does detract the power of moderation ever so slightly, it increases the experience for attendees WITHOUT sacrificing safety.
6. Counter-points
A) Live Steel is not allowed at the con.
aa) This plan doesn't edit the ban on live steel at all, but instead applies to only the already allowed weapons on-site.
B) Safety is reduced, as it can be seen as aggressive if they draw their sword in front of a cop
aa) As stated in point 5, subpoint B, it does not detract from safety? Why? Because the weapon is tagged all the same as any other weapon, indicating that it is not a real threat, much akin to the orange markings on fake guns or swords without sheaths.
bb) The simple act of drawing your sword in every day life would NOT spark some sort of wide panic in a con. Why? Because it's a con. Again, if it were everyday life, there would be no argument, but as we all know, an anime convention is a black hole removed from time-space.
cc) (https://forums.fanime.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fz.about.com%2Fd%2Fmanga%2F1%2F0%2FC%2F1%2F-%2F-%2FAX07_bleach_500.jpg&hash=ea7ee5b3547a3bc48245a3d7043b14b7c04acd90)
=/= Threatening.
dd) Continuing on bb, police, regardless of jokes, are not dumb people and can figure out that it's a convention. Especially when it happens every year at the same time.
C) Few people complain about this, therefore the convention staff requires more persuasive force in order to implement such a rule
aa) It's too difficult to gather said names. Half don't check the forums, a good quarter that do don't check the forums, and the rest may not even be cosplayers. Want evidence? Ask those who bring in applicable weapons if they rather have one peace-bond interlocking the sword and sheath or two allowing the weapon to be opened and closed. It's currently not my responsibility maintaining the experience for the attendees, therefore not mine to do all the work.
7) Conclusion
A) I drew from this that my plan is the best one suggested, merely because it offers a maintaining of security, while allowing for a more interesting experience at the growing convention. In fact, the only extra work you have to do is c/p the rule into the booklet and let your rovers read it.
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 05:27:42 PMWords
GOD... YOU JUST DON'T GET IT...
You're wrong, and the SJSU would agree with me.
It's not okay, "just because it's a con" and this mentality is SO INCREDIBLY STUPID that it really really really irritates me and a lot of other people.
The convention is still on public grounds. The convention still exists in this reality. Laws simply do not disappear because it's a convention, and such basic laws should be abided by. This goes for all things really though. People shouldn't act like they can do things just because it's a convention.
And you're still just whining because you want to be allowed to do something because you think it's okay to do at a convention... when it's not.
OKAY, let's follow your little rule change. Now who is to say, that someone doesn't unsheathe their sword, and a cop sees it, drawing his gun? OH IT'S A CONVENTION RIGHT?!??!?! PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN!
Okay, now, what if someone does that with a real sword... And starts killing people. Something that could have been prevented has the officer ASSESSED THE SITUATION AND HANDLED IT LIKE HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Your stupid rule change just caused 20 people to die. Good job.
These rules aren't meant to piss people off. They're meant to protect people. They're put in place so that the above event CANNOT take place. Sure, if everyone in the world could be trusted, and no one did bad things, it would make perfect sense if people didn't have to get stuff checked, but we don't live in fairy world(though a lot of people assume conventions are fairy world).
A lot of bad crap happens at conventions. People destroy property, people get into fights, people get hurt. Rules are in place to prevent these, and if you don't like safety rules that make complete legitimate sense(as you have already admitted with stating how it's viable outside of a convention), then don't come to a con... or carry around a bokuto that doesn't have a sheath. Because who care about your pose, because it's clearly inaccurate witha bokuto already, anyways.
In the end, the con has heard and will evaluate. However much bickering that happens here will not change the facts and the outcome. The law may set a minimum baseline, but the con will decide as appropriate, balancing far more factors than you may be aware of.
1. Counterpoints
A) And you're still just whining because you want to be allowed to do something because you think it's okay to do at a convention... when it's not.
aa) In fact, the ruling on this issue at hand won't affect me in the least. Of the three planned cosplays, only one has a sword and that will just be a prop on my back (Ironically my least likely to do, because the other two are more important to me). So cut the presumptuous talk. True, it has affected me in the past, but I bought a new one (Wooden since mine was live steel so I had to buy a new one anyway) and just had the tie around the hilt.
B) In regards to my question posed (Not answered since you don't like reading your opponents arguments, just rant on what you feel), the third party that posted answered my question. I was asking since if you were staff and were as nearly immovable as you seem to be, then the whole argument would be pointless.
C) Fallacy - Because it's a con does not mean laws are not enforced
aa) The black hole was an analogy (English 101 pls). Rules ARE more lax there.
bb) Backing up point aa, if all laws apply as normal, how did the drunk and disorderly conduct citation go along? Didn't get one? Yeah, didn't think so. That's because things not normally acceptable are given leeway. Don't know what I'm talking about? Stage Zero, about 9-10p last Fanime. California Penal Code 647; since when have you been so into what's lawful?
D) Public Safety
aa) Your idiocy shines through. Besides "Now who is to say, that someone doesn't unsheathe their sword, and a cop sees it, drawing his gun? OH IT'S A CONVENTION RIGHT?!??!?! PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN!" not making a lick of sense (well it does, but it follows no bounds of logic), there's "Okay, now, what if someone does that with a real sword... And starts killing people. Something that could have been prevented has the officer ASSESSED THE SITUATION AND HANDLED IT LIKE HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Your stupid rule change just caused 20 people to die. Good job."
You act as if the cops will suddenly go stupid once the rule goes into affect. When they see someone swinging around a sword and blood and guts flying about, they'll just go "Hey, the rule about the peace-bond changed, what could I do?". Note that they can still enforce whatever the hell they want. If they want to see a Naruto group with one of the members drawing a sword as a threat they can. The rules not going to stop them from doing what they do.
Speaking of things not stopping people from doing what they do, you seem to think that the plastic peace-bond is going to stop a crazed killer from going on a killing spree. I can already see the reports, "Today, at an anime convention known as Fanime, a crazed citizen killed 20... Oh only if there was a plastic wrap to have prevented him from drawing his sword and committing such a heinous crime." Your argument is stupid. If they have the resolve to kill someone, a piece of plastic is not going to stop them. In fact, they wouldn't get the plastic thing in the first place, so your whole argument is demolished.
E) But like you said, law isn't canceled
aa) Yes, and neither is logic. I've argued this already, (see all above points). There is no law against possession of plastic or wooden weapons (or the whole of Toys R' Us would be confiscated).
bb) While it may or may not be true that drawing a sword is seen as threatening to a cop, the act is NOT against the law. Yes, they can arrest you or take you into custody, but find me a law that prohibits the drawing of a wooden sword from a sheath. Can't find it? Oh.
2) Conclusion
I'm wholly disappointed at this argument. You've done nothing but attack the attacker, use capslock and fallacies, and use sarcasm. I remembered someone intelligent that posted, not some poster any /b/ troll could emulate. Personal attacks don't constitute an argument against the plan (but if you have already, then hell go for it).
Debate skills. Get some.
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 09:07:07 PM
1. Counterpoints
A) And you're still just whining because you want to be allowed to do something because you think it's okay to do at a convention... when it's not.
aa) In fact, the ruling on this issue at hand won't affect me in the least. Of the three planned cosplays, only one has a sword and that will just be a prop on my back (Ironically my least likely to do, because the other two are more important to me). So cut the presumptuous talk. True, it has affected me in the past, but I bought a new one (Wooden since mine was live steel so I had to buy a new one anyway) and just had the tie around the hilt.
Which is my point, it applied to you in the past so the reason still stands.
QuoteB) In regards to my question posed (Not answered since you don't like reading your opponents arguments, just rant on what you feel), the third party that posted answered my question. I was asking since if you were staff and were as nearly immovable as you seem to be, then the whole argument would be pointless.
C) Fallacy - Because it's a con does not mean laws are not enforced
aa) The black hole was an analogy (English 101 pls). Rules ARE more lax there.
bb) Backing up point aa, if all laws apply as normal, how did the drunk and disorderly conduct citation go along? Didn't get one? Yeah, didn't think so. That's because things not normally acceptable are given leeway. Don't know what I'm talking about? Stage Zero, about 9-10p last Fanime. California Penal Code 647; since when have you been so into what's lawful?
Oh, and just because you got away with being drunk and idiotic, means that no one got busted for it? Sorry, people did get busted for alcohol, public drunkeness and other things. People had alcohol confiscated and other things happened. But you got away with it, which must mean something right? Because laws are enforced doesn't mean that everyone that breaks the law is caught/punished. There are people that are out drunk almost every night and a lot of them don't get caught.
QuoteYou act as if the cops will suddenly go stupid once the rule goes into affect. When they see someone swinging around a sword and blood and guts flying about, they'll just go "Hey, the rule about the peace-bond changed, what could I do?". Note that they can still enforce whatever the hell they want. If they want to see a Naruto group with one of the members drawing a sword as a threat they can. The rules not going to stop them from doing what they do.
You assume that this is "stupid". And now you're just arguing specifics to not argue the point. "WELL SO AND SO CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS!" which again, doesn't apply to the argument. I can go run amok, kill dozens of people, and not get caught, how does that apply to laws not existing for a purpose? A police officer can pull over whoever they want based on "suspicion" does that mean we don't need laws in place? Yes, they can enforce whatever the hell they want, what in gods hell are you even arguing at this point?
They can enforce the rule? What rule? The point of unsheathing a sword? Once more that rule is in place to prevent confusion and allowance of people to do something that is deemed dangerous. SO WHY ENCOURAGE THE ACTION? If there were no peace bonding, cops can still enforce the rule, but why force extra work on them. The rules are telling you not to do it, you are saying "I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO WHAT I WANT!"
QuoteSpeaking of things not stopping people from doing what they do, you seem to think that the plastic peace-bond is going to stop a crazed killer from going on a killing spree. I can already see the reports, "Today, at an anime convention known as Fanime, a crazed citizen killed 20... Oh only if there was a plastic wrap to have prevented him from drawing his sword and committing such a heinous crime." Your argument is stupid. If they have the resolve to kill someone, a piece of plastic is not going to stop them. In fact, they wouldn't get the plastic thing in the first place, so your whole argument is demolished.
And once again, you are missing the point. That plastic means that staff has checked and okay'd that prop to be carried around. Now, if a person DOES draw their sword SJPD and staff will know that said person DIDN'T GET IT CHECKED and this person is now a risk to the safety of others and breaking con rules and possibly state law. This isn't about the people that can follow rules, this is about people that MIGHT NOT. This is about the protection of other people, because once more, this world isn't perfect and full of sunshine.
"I won't abuse a firearm, even though I'm 15 yo, why is there a law not allowing me to carry a gun around!"
That's what you're screaming about. Just because most people don't/won't break the law, just because most people don't/won't endanger others doesn't mean EVERYONE is like that. These rules exist for those that might/do break the law. Yeah, that 15 yo can still get a gun. That 15 yo can still shoot people with it, but the law still exists to protect a lot of people.
Quoteaa) Yes, and neither is logic. I've argued this already, (see all above points). There is no law against possession of plastic or wooden weapons (or the whole of Toys R' Us would be confiscated).
bb) While it may or may not be true that drawing a sword is seen as threatening to a cop, the act is NOT against the law. Yes, they can arrest you or take you into custody, but find me a law that prohibits the drawing of a wooden sword from a sheath. Can't find it? Oh.
Again, you missed the god damned point and are purposely not reading. What would happen if someone did that, and a cop pulled out his gun? What if a rover didn't know and tackled you to the ground because he couldn't see it was wood and THOUGHT you were going to swing it at someone? Besides the lawsuits between the involved parties, you just involved the convention, the convention grounds, and all of staff. You created an incident that would worry parents, and something that could be addressed on a higher level. Fanime is now a "questionable" convention because at the con, a police officer drew his gun, and someone swung his sword around. Because a staff member tackled someone down that looked like they were going to kill someone. Do you think that this will just be ignored? Do you think that people won't make a huge deal out of it? The con could probably get shut down. The convention center could possibly say "Nope, you can't have Fanime here any more". Parents can sue the con for allowing such dangerous conditions.
Quote
2) Conclusion
I'm wholly disappointed at this argument. You've done nothing but attack the attacker, use capslock and fallacies, and use sarcasm. I remembered someone intelligent that posted, not some poster any /b/ troll could emulate. Personal attacks don't constitute an argument against the plan (but if you have already, then hell go for it).
Debate skills. Get some.
AWWW some kid in a college debate class that thinks using an outline means a damn thing. You don't even understand what fallacies are because nothing I claimed was a fallacy. The things I claimed were potential consequences and situations, all of them realistic. You are only seeing this from the POV of a cosplayer that wants to draw his sword so he can take pictures, but not looking at the perspective of other guests, staff, law, parents, or anyone else for that matter. The act in itself SEEMS harmless, and it is harmless for the most part based on who is doing it. But there's still potential of things going wrong, rules are there to prevent these potential wrongs from happening. This isn't even really a debate, this is informing you why this rule exists. This is getting you to try and understand why something like this is put into affect and how it affects other people. Get your head out of your ass and instead of strawman arguing everything (yes... because that is what you're doing ZOMG DEBATE WORDS!!!!) stick to THE ACTUAL SUBJECT MATTER.
The subject matter is "Why do they peace bond the sword to the sheath even if it's a wooden sword".
Because, there is no way to tell whether or not a wooden sword is wooden when it's inside of the sheath. The action of unsheathing a sword is dangerous because one cannot assume the sword is wooden, and it's MORE LIKELY to believe that the sword is steel.
Why does that matter? Because this can create many problems. The action can be considered dangerous which may prompt action on the part of staff and SJPD. These actions may end innocently enough when the confusion of the sword being metal or wood is made more apparent, but when decisions are made in mere seconds, the consequences still last.
These consequences although unlikely could result in an officer even firing at someone. More realistically would cause a lot of legal issues between attendees, the SJPD and fanime con.
This may result in the convention being closed down, being sued for a lot of money, amongst the lesser bad publicity it would be guaranteed.
Now, what part of your little "skillfully debated splurge" in any way disproved any of that? These are all very real possibilities. Something you should keep in mind. I talk to staff at a lot of conventions, so I hear a lot of the stories of things that happen, and thankfully a lot of cons do pretty well and are pretty lucky in keeping things underwraps to the general attendees.
Conventions have rules to protect the attendees. Some of these rules may seem stupid or extreme, but most of them generally do make a lot of sense if you actually take the time to understand the rule. If you aren't happy with peace bonding, then don't go to the convention. The rules exists for the safety of others. They're not going to remove this rule just because a few cosplayers think it's unfair they can't pull out a sword to take a pretty picture.
See, now you're arguing correctly.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 08, 2010, 10:14:00 PM
A) And you're still just whining because you want to be allowed to do something because you think it's okay to do at a convention... when it's not.
Which is my point, it applied to you in the past so the reason still stands.
"you want to be allowed to do something" Future tense. Grammar is win. I can't argue against something that is correct in your mind but not in writing.
Quote
Oh, and just because you got away with being drunk and idiotic, means that no one got busted for it? Sorry, people did get busted for alcohol, public drunkeness and other things. People had alcohol confiscated and other things happened. But you got away with it, which must mean something right? Because laws are enforced doesn't mean that everyone that breaks the law is caught/punished. There are people that are out drunk almost every night and a lot of them don't get caught.
Actually it was a reference to you, rather than myself. Didn't stay at Fanime the full weekend last year. Was a sad day.
Quote
You assume that this is "stupid". And now you're just arguing specifics to not argue the point. "WELL SO AND SO CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS!" which again, doesn't apply to the argument. I can go run amok, kill dozens of people, and not get caught, how does that apply to laws not existing for a purpose? A police officer can pull over whoever they want based on "suspicion" does that mean we don't need laws in place? Yes, they can enforce whatever the hell they want, what in gods hell are you even arguing at this point?
They can enforce the rule? What rule? The point of unsheathing a sword? Once more that rule is in place to prevent confusion and allowance of people to do something that is deemed dangerous. SO WHY ENCOURAGE THE ACTION? If there were no peace bonding, cops can still enforce the rule, but why force extra work on them. The rules are telling you not to do it, you are saying "I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO WHAT I WANT!"
"Okay, now, what if someone does that with a real sword... And starts killing people. Something that could have been prevented has the officer ASSESSED THE SITUATION AND HANDLED IT LIKE HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Your stupid rule change just caused 20 people to die. Good job."
That's what I was referring to. I keep my stuff organized not just for looks, but because I don't want to lose my arguments. Your statement infers that because of the rule change, he could no longer "[assess] the situation and handled it like he is supposed to do". Your the one that inferred created stupidity on the part of the police. Good job.
Quote
And once again, you are missing the point. That plastic means that staff has checked and okay'd that prop to be carried around. Now, if a person DOES draw their sword SJPD and staff will know that said person DIDN'T GET IT CHECKED and this person is now a risk to the safety of others and breaking con rules and possibly state law. This isn't about the people that can follow rules, this is about people that MIGHT NOT. This is about the protection of other people, because once more, this world isn't perfect and full of sunshine.
[Erased example because it's not an argument, but arguing point so it's still addressed]
And once again, you are missing the point. That plastic means that staff has checked and okay'd the prop to be carried around. Now, if the person DOES draw their sword SJPD and staff will know that said person DIDN'T GET IT CHECKED and this person is now a risk to the safety of other and breaking con rules and possible state law. Except, in my case, the indicator is still there. The plastic wraps are still in place. So unless the person is going on a killing spree with a blunt wooden sword, we're still good on the safety meter as long as the checkers are competent.
Quote
Again, you missed the god damned point and are purposely not reading. What would happen if someone did that, and a cop pulled out his gun? What if a rover didn't know and tackled you to the ground because he couldn't see it was wood and THOUGHT you were going to swing it at someone? Besides the lawsuits between the involved parties, you just involved the convention, the convention grounds, and all of staff. You created an incident that would worry parents, and something that could be addressed on a higher level. Fanime is now a "questionable" convention because at the con, a police officer drew his gun, and someone swung his sword around. Because a staff member tackled someone down that looked like they were going to kill someone. Do you think that this will just be ignored? Do you think that people won't make a huge deal out of it? The con could probably get shut down. The convention center could possibly say "Nope, you can't have Fanime here any more". Parents can sue the con for allowing such dangerous conditions.
Operating in what if's once more. The same what if's can be applied in any scenario. What if someone was running around with his sword and a cop pulled his gun? What if a rover didn't know and tackled you to the ground because he couldn't see it was wood and THOUGHT you were going to swing it at someone? It's so generic that it can be applied to any weapon waved anywhere. You guys deal with the liability issue there, yet the simple act of drawing a sword is too threatening? Moreso than walking around with it freely? Moreso than moving it around? The two previous ones are allowable, yet unsheathing is banned. The problem again is the double standard that can't be fixed unless you either a) ban openly wielded weapons (unsheathed) or b) repeal the ban on the interlocking of sword and sheath.
QuoteAWWW some kid in a college debate class that thinks using an outline means a damn thing. You don't even understand what fallacies are because nothing I claimed was a fallacy. The things I claimed were potential consequences and situations, all of them realistic. You are only seeing this from the POV of a cosplayer that wants to draw his sword so he can take pictures, but not looking at the perspective of other guests, staff, law, parents, or anyone else for that matter. The act in itself SEEMS harmless, and it is harmless for the most part based on who is doing it. But there's still potential of things going wrong, rules are there to prevent these potential wrongs from happening. This isn't even really a debate, this is informing you why this rule exists. This is getting you to try and understand why something like this is put into affect and how it affects other people. Get your head out of your ass and instead of strawman arguing everything (yes... because that is what you're doing ZOMG DEBATE WORDS!!!!) stick to THE ACTUAL SUBJECT MATTER.
Been thinking about taking that class actually. More into politics, just lurk on my free time. Lemme tell you why your argument is a fallacy. While you do argue consequences, you don't argue the main issues (well you weren't before, but now you're getting there. Your back to arguing intelligently, grats). How can I say this? I FORM the issues. You were forming your own and going off on your own tangent, with about two points and the rest being sarcasm and capslock.
Quote
The subject matter is "Why do they peace bond the sword to the sheath even if it's a wooden sword".
Because, there is no way to tell whether or not a wooden sword is wooden when it's inside of the sheath. The action of unsheathing a sword is dangerous because one cannot assume the sword is wooden, and it's MORE LIKELY to believe that the sword is steel.
Why does that matter? Because this can create many problems. The action can be considered dangerous which may prompt action on the part of staff and SJPD. These actions may end innocently enough when the confusion of the sword being metal or wood is made more apparent, but when decisions are made in mere seconds, the consequences still last.
These consequences although unlikely could result in an officer even firing at someone. More realistically would cause a lot of legal issues between attendees, the SJPD and fanime con.
This may result in the convention being closed down, being sued for a lot of money, amongst the lesser bad publicity it would be guaranteed.
Now, what part of your little "skillfully debated splurge" in any way disproved any of that? These are all very real possibilities. Something you should keep in mind. I talk to staff at a lot of conventions, so I hear a lot of the stories of things that happen, and thankfully a lot of cons do pretty well and are pretty lucky in keeping things underwraps to the general attendees.
Conventions have rules to protect the attendees. Some of these rules may seem stupid or extreme, but most of them generally do make a lot of sense if you actually take the time to understand the rule. If you aren't happy with peace bonding, then don't go to the convention. The rules exists for the safety of others. They're not going to remove this rule just because a few cosplayers think it's unfair they can't pull out a sword to take a pretty picture.
No, there is a way to tell if it is wooden or not. That's what the damn peace-bond does. It indicates safety, does it not? I don't feel like backtracking and checking the definition, but ultimately that's the purpose it fulfills. If it's a wooden sword, it receives a peace-bond. If it's not, then it doesn't. That's the point.
You argue that they don't know if it's wood or not. I say that the peace-bond indicates that. They see it, then no problem. Someone's drawing a sword, it has a bright yellow, pink, orange or whatever horrid color you want, and then you know it's been checked and is safe. I conceded that you can even tag the sheath itself as well if you want double protection.
Heading out to bed. I'll reply w/e response in the afternoon tomorrow lol. Was a fun day. gg day1
I'm not even going to address the rest of this dribble. A little college kid thinks he knows what debate is and is acting all high and mighty, despite not arguing any real points and just attacking literal words and grammar.
Quote from: DivineChaos on February 08, 2010, 10:50:22 PM
No, there is a way to tell if it is wooden or not. That's what the damn peace-bond does. It indicates safety, does it not? I don't feel like backtracking and checking the definition, but ultimately that's the purpose it fulfills. If it's a wooden sword, it receives a peace-bond. If it's not, then it doesn't. That's the point.
You argue that they don't know if it's wood or not. I say that the peace-bond indicates that. They see it, then no problem. Someone's drawing a sword, it has a bright yellow, pink, orange or whatever horrid color you want, and then you know it's been checked and is safe. I conceded that you can even tag the sheath itself as well if you want double protection.
A wooden sword is 3 ft long if based on a standard katana. One can see this very easily. A zip tie, is about 3 inches, and it usually at the hilt of a sword, where a person would be holding if drawing a sword from its sheath. Are you saying, if you were looking around, and you saw someone unsheath a sword you would be able to tell whether or not that sword had a zip tie on it in the .2 seconds it takes to draw a sword?
Seriously kid, you aren't arguing, you're whining. The point of arguing is to make others see your point of view as to why something should or shouldn't be. You're complaining and trying to poke holes in specific examples and actions (which you have yet to even disprove any).
I gave examples of things that are possibilities. You are trying to disprove those possibilities with possibilities within those possibilities. This doesn't disprove the possibility, it just shows an example where the possibility doesn't apply. That doesn't help your argument. That just makes you a whiny brat.
Think about how a 5-6yr old kid argues with his parent, that's what you're doing.
In short, rules are rules, there's a reason why they're implemented, although rules are also meant to be challenged, only if you have valid points, I just see none of this. Anyways, the point of the topic has been squashed, and I see there is nothing else to contribute to the topic of the thread. This thread is locked.