With the ever growing popularity of the Artist Alley at Fanime and increasing push/desire for table space I wonder if is being considered next year to have more tables for the AA. With high profile art guests such as kidchan considering attending next year I think it would make sense to try and have more avalible table space for her and the many other new faces that are strongly considering attending, including those that were disillusioned by the poor treatment they got at the hand of AN's AA. Having a strong AA does and will attract a lot of people to come, even if just to meet their favorite artist. Expansion, if doable, should be something that should have a lot of thought put into it.
I think that might have been one of the biggest possible rooms already... aside from the dealers room. anyways it was about 200 tables. xx was intense!
We are considering adding more tables. The dealers room and gaming rooms are larger and the same size. It is still pretty early in the planing process so stay apprised and we will have more info for you all.
Thanks for the consideration : 3 I'm currently using my connections to the art community to try and bring new blood to our AA so making sure the tables are there for them is important. Expect alot of great artists to show up if these efforts prove successful.
That would be awesome. It seemed like there was a bit of a scramble this year, but I think things got smoothed out, which is great.
I don't know if this is totally relevant to the thread, but in addition to an expanded AA, it'd be good to exercise a little bit of caution when dealing with artists or other congoers. There was recently a colossal shitstorm in the Otakon AA because a certain artist booked 14 different tables throughout the alley. Long story short, things pretty much exploded and now there's a ragefest going on about the artist in question along with the Otakon staff for not doing anything. I'd hate for that sort of thing to happen in the Fanime AA ;_;
Haha I was actually thinking about mentioning that and linking the thread from the Otakon forums about it >____>;; Don't know if I should add that in this thread of open a seperate thread about it though.
We did manage to hold them to four this year but two or better yet zero should be the goal. After gaming the system so hard repreccussions should follow.
If an artist is that big, they should go to the dealers room. One artist taking 14 tables is insane. Given how cheap the artist tables are, I think it's perfectly fair to put a cap of a maximum of one or two tables per artist. Furthermore, I think "artist" should count as the person who did the work, not the person sitting at the table. An artist getting fourteen friends to register different tables and simultaneously sell his/her work isn't very nice either. Artist Alley should be a place where new artists come to try things out, not where established artists can easily make a profit.
Think I'll add the link to the thread about what we're talking about here:
http://board.otakon.com/index.php?showtopic=15035&st=0&start=0
I think some of the suggestions being made here would be worth looking at for our alley as well.
Quote from: Hirotona on August 14, 2008, 05:52:36 PM
Think I'll add the link to the thread about what we're talking about here:
http://board.otakon.com/index.php?showtopic=15035&st=0&start=0
"Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken."
Do I have to register to see it?
Ugh my friend was getting that message last night to when I was trying to show it to her.
Yeah I'd register and try again.
EDIT:
http://tanqexe.deviantart.com/journal/19894132/
Great sum up of the various misdeeds done. Should be read by anybody involved with Fanime's AA, artist or volunteer/those in charge.
Quote from: Hirotona on August 14, 2008, 06:38:55 PMhttp://tanqexe.deviantart.com/journal/19894132/
Grr! That's just... unspeakably sleazy! I can't believe people would go so far and demean themselves and the spirit of art alleys everywhere just to circumvent one small, basic, common-sense rule.
I also saw the copy of Otakon's response. That group went through such great lengths that I can sympathize with the Otakon Artist Alley staff. The style similarity might be blatant and obvious to experienced artists (I'm a total newbie, and I'm not at all sure I'd be able to tell), but I imagine it'd be very difficult to try to explain it to lawyers and judges and what not if things came down to that. If they're selling different pieces at each table, if they have someone else claiming that the work is theirs, if they even make different deviantart accounts for different pieces of art, how can the people who run art alleys prove the violation enough to throw people out of the artist alley while the event is happening?
Well at the very least with more awareness of what is going on and vigilance people will be more on the look out for this kind of thing and if need be re-write the AA policies to try and clamp down on these kind of misdeeds.
Personally I'm very dissapointed at Otakon's response. Only so many people can all say the same thing about those prints before it's more then a simple "he said, she said" kind of deal. I'm relying on Fanime and other cons to at least step up and prevent this from ever happening again.
Quote from: Nyxyin on August 15, 2008, 05:48:35 PM
but I imagine it'd be very difficult to try to explain it to lawyers and judges and what not if things came down to that.
Listening and reading.....and I'm gonna hopefully be a lawyer and maybe a judge too....4 birds one stone?? O:-)
Thanks for the info guys. We have been looking into the operation of AA and also looking at how we can balance the AA and the dealers room better.
BTW, AA and Dealers are departments under Fan Services (see signature below) =D
Does that count as a 5th bird, or am I pushing it?? O:-)
I just really want to thank you guys again. It's the fan contribution and the blurred lines between staff and fans that make Fanime such an awesome experience. Thanks again, and keep your eyes out for how we can make the con better!
That's very comforting to hear and makes me very happy in general : 3 I knew I could rely on those in charge of the best convention to come through : D
I'm looking forward to seeing what the new balance will be and how things will enfold in regards to both the AA (which obviously I have a rather large vested interest in) and the dealer's room. Fanime should be the con setting the example to be followed.
EDIT: Btw my suggestion dealing with those two would be to premanantly blacklist them. Fanime need to keep the tables for those who play by the rules. Also blacklisting them would make the AA alot more attractive to some artists who are deciding between selling at Fanime/AN/and ABoston.
Quote from: Hirotona on August 15, 2008, 06:33:44 PM
Well at the very least with more awareness of what is going on and vigilance people will be more on the look out for this kind of thing and if need be re-write the AA policies to try and clamp down on these kind of misdeeds.
Personally I'm very dissapointed at Otakon's response. Only so many people can all say the same thing about those prints before it's more then a simple "he said, she said" kind of deal. I'm relying on Fanime and other cons to at least step up and prevent this from ever happening again.
While a swift and decisive punishment would probably be pretty gratifying to a lot of people, I can understand why Otakon is being sort of "soft" on these two. Like stated earlier, it's hard to turn this into a stark black-and-white sort of situation in a legal sense, so it'd be difficult to come up with a proper answer to this problem. Somehow, I think other cons explicitly blacklisting those two might bring up more problems. After all, we haven't had such an incident happen specifically at Fanime. In a legal sense, I think it's kind of dodgy to punish people because of things they've done at other conventions. Buut that's all up to the convention staff.
Whatever happens, though, they're still going to be feeling the effects of their misdeeds. They might still make money at the conventions they go to, but you can be sure that they won't be making as much as they used to and that their experiences probably won't be very pleasant considering how darkly they've tarnished their reputations. They might have to watch their backs from now on. ;]
Otakon responds:
http://lists.baka.org/pipermail/animecons/2008-August/018282.html
I'll think up a proper response to this later but everyone I mentioned to considering fanime liked the idea of them being blacklisting and is factoring strongly into them going or not. Recall we have not only AN to contend with (despite their terrible general AA policies) and ABoston this year all on the same weekend > >;; And I think there's nothing wrong with it at all, they'll try and bend and abuse the rules as much as possible unless you strongly limit everyone freedoms (the stupid AN approach) or you just punish those who abused the rules in the first place. Tables are a tight squeeze as it is, they all should be avalible to those who are honest and play by the rules. I'd much rather have tables open for PB, Kidchan, Koinogenki, Joodlez (all new people strongly considering going) then try and play nice with those would would gladly take ten plus tables > . >;;
And most of the fans are just total idiots and not even paying attention. All you need to do to witness this is see all the fan-people responding in Ramy's journal despite all the evidence against him.
On one hand, I agree that I'd rather not have the culprits show up at Fanime. Kimochi warui. On the other hand, I agree that the idea of blacklisting people due to something that happens somewhere else also leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There's just something very fascist about the idea. :/ The culprits have never been interested in Fanime before, have they? I only go to Fanime, so I can hope it stays that way. I like to think all those unsavory types (the people who value money more than art, as well as the "total idiots" who support them) decide to go to the other conventions and avoid Fanime. Also, like Otakon's worries about lawyers, I'm also worried that, if Fanime were to declare a blacklist on them, the culprits might consider it a challenge to circumvent the blacklist and suddenly become interested in Fanime just because the blacklist exists. "The grass is always greener on the other side" and all that.
I think it'd be great for Fanime to get more ideas about how to effectively enforce its rules so similar problems can't happen at Fanime, but explicitly banning the culprits goes a bit far, and blacklisting doesn't do anything to stop potential copycats. Ramy and Sylvia probably aren't the first two artists ever to succumb to greed, and they probably won't be the last two either.
Make everyone else alot happier though plus save more space for those who merit it plus there's two other cons for them to try their luck at anyway >>;; And who's to say they wouldn't try, before this year they didn't even have any tables and this time they had four. I doubt that being blacklisted would try to get them to get around the rules, we know the material they'd sell and if anyone tried to sell it via proxy for them then we could boot them out to. The rules we have our fine actually with a bit of tweaking; no need to go the stupid exterme of AN. There is something to be said of the usual good character of our artists though we should be very proud of. Still think Fanime should be the one stepping up to the plate here though.
I'd add that, if possible, it might be helpful to some artists to have power outlets available (for an added fee, if necessary), most notably musicians, game coders, etc. Maybe a limited number of powered tables could be made available in the future?
Quote from: Hirotona on August 13, 2008, 10:49:38 PM
Haha I was actually thinking about mentioning that and linking the thread from the Otakon forums about it >____>;; Don't know if I should add that in this thread of open a seperate thread about it though.
We did manage to hold them to four this year but two or better yet zero should be the goal. After gaming the system so hard repreccussions should follow.
actually it would be nice if I could have power too so that I could maybe make clothes while at my table or to use my sewing machine to help people fix their cosplays :D
you want power, you gotta pay...something like $300-500 for a drop.
Quote from: ewu on February 19, 2009, 08:27:53 PM
you want power, you gotta pay...something like $300-500 for a drop.
lol yeah I know prolly way too expensive ;) but I can dream right? ;D
well if someone is out there that wants it, tell us soon so it'll cost less for fanime and you. but honestly...thats like half of the dealers booth fee....
I can't afford it this time around, unfortunately (I could either afford that or getting CDs printed, but not both ~cringe~). Good to know for the future, though.
Well here's my novel idea on how we can make FanmieCon's Artist Alley better.
Right now, I find the way most cons do artist alley is counter productive. While most place charge about $50.00 a booth, and admittedly this is a very generously discounted rate, it prevents artists that are just starting up from participating in the Alley. Also, I find that most festivals/conventions have trouble making any money from their Alley, let alone break even.. However, I have thought of the perfect solution that allows conventions to make money from their Artist Alley's AND allow Artist Alley to support the conventions. Take a fixed amount out of the artist's revenue.
By not charging a fixed fee for a table at your artist alley and taking a percentage you will open up Artist Alley to a wide variety of new artists who normally couldn't afford a table. This could allow FanimeCon alley to be greatly expanded, giving the conventions patrons a wider selection of artists. Also, by charging a percentage of sales you will allow Artist Alley can become a small revenue generator for the rest of the event.
Now for some questions:
Q. But doesn't this punish people for being good? If a con takes 20%, someone making $2000.00 at our alley will have to pay us $400.00 of it.
A. Yes it does. However that still means that they are getting $1600.00 in a single weekend. Plus all the new artists you'll recruit won't lose any money if they take a chance on your alley. They'll only risk their time.
Q. Our convention doesn't want to be seen as greedy. How can we use this system while supporting the artists?
A. For starters you could promise to use any revenue generated from the Alley for it's improvement (better location, decorations, supplies, ect). Also, you can use it to fund projects that most artists couldn't afford normally. Like if the Alley makes $5000.00 in one year, they could use that money to fund an art book that the artists can collaborate into for the year after.
Q. People are saying we'll lose our most popular artists if we do this? What can we do?
A. Tell them there's still the vendors/dealers hall. Inform them that you've decided to focus on the entire community of artists as opposed to them. Say that if they have become popular, they no longer need the conventions help. Or just ignore them. Don't worry, they'll be back.
So what does everyone think?
I love the concept, but it's really easy to get around. (It's why the IRS forces businesses to choose either cash or accrual accounting.) I'm not sure there's a practical way to take a percentage without a flat fee.
Also, not everyone at AA is selling... we'd either have to exclude them due to cost, or charge a fee; otherwise the people selling items are effectively subsidizing the ones who are not.
Quote from: Tony on February 24, 2009, 09:02:49 AM
I love the concept, but it's really easy to get around. (It's why the IRS forces businesses to choose either cash or accrual accounting.) I'm not sure there's a practical way to take a percentage without a flat fee.
Also, not everyone at AA is selling... we'd either have to exclude them due to cost, or charge a fee; otherwise the people selling items are effectively subsidizing the ones who are not.
yeah I agree :-\
how would you know how much money they took in?
and yea quite a few people don't make what it costs for the booth...
Quote from: Fettachan on February 24, 2009, 01:20:26 AM
Right now, I find the way most cons do artist alley is counter productive. While most place charge about $50.00 a booth, and admittedly this is a very generously discounted rate, it prevents artists that are just starting up from participating in the Alley.
Our current rate until con is $30. I think Fanime's AA is about as cheap as it can get for a larger con.
A sound idea though.
Quote from: Tony on February 24, 2009, 09:02:49 AM
I love the concept, but it's really easy to get around. (It's why the IRS forces businesses to choose either cash or accrual accounting.) I'm not sure there's a practical way to take a percentage without a flat fee.
Well here's my solution. Have a ticket based system.
Example: Patron buys tickets from a cashier for $1.00 each (example). Artists then charge for their art prices in tickets (1 drawing = 3 tickets). At the end of the con, artists can then redeem their tickets for 90 cents, and the con can get 10 cents from every ticket.
It requires a little extra work (a cash out, volunteer to run it, getting tickets) but it helps solve some problems. Like then the majority of artists wouldn't have to deal with cash boxes and change. They just have to collect tickets.
Quote from: Tony on February 24, 2009, 09:02:49 AM
Also, not everyone at AA is selling... we'd either have to exclude them due to cost, or charge a fee; otherwise the people selling items are effectively subsidizing the ones who are not.
Hmm, well I guess you could charge them a fee, but your right. I guess someone would have to bite the bullet on that point. Still I think the benefits weigh out this small problem.
QuoteOur current rate until con is $30. I think Fanime's AA is about as cheap as it can get for a larger con.
True. I guess with this more people would end up paying more then just paying the $30.00. Then again, $30.00 is still enough to discourage a lot of new artists especially in a recession. I mean this way you are guaranteed to make some money and you are only risking your time.
(For simplicity's sake, I assume in this post that the fixed fee would be 10% of gross profits. ^^; )
As an artist who is mildly new to artist's alleys, I'd have to say that if this were implemented I would probably be turned off to the idea of selling in the AA. I'll admit that it's a pretty strictly logical plan, and would definitely be a benefit to anyone who projects under a $300 profit for the convention, but there's something kind of daunting about being unaware of how much you'd technically be paying for a table. >_>; Again, the plan is definitely sound but the variable factor causes a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
Also, I kind of question if the profit gained by the people making >$300 will outweigh the loss caused by the people making <$300. Most artist I know who participate in AAs don't often walk away with a lot of money. So, especially if the higher-grossing artists are driven away by the increased cost for them, fanime could be looking at a net loss rather than a small revenue machine.
The ticketing system you suggested seems arbitrarily complex and, speaking from experience as one who has run carnival games, tiny tickets are much harder to keep an accurate count of than money is. ^^;
In the end, is it reasonable and feasible for Fanime to staff and organize such an effort? We are short on staff as is, are we supposed to patrol the alley for people using cash instead of the tickets? what proof do we have that you made $100 instead of $450? at the end of the day/con are 200 some odd people going to line up to pay Fanime a percentage of their earnings? Do we even have the staff to collect $$ and make sure this 200 person line moves quick and efficiently?
Great ideas but we need solutions; take the idea a second step and examine how to implement them effectively and economically.
Sometimes KISS is the best, "Keep It Simple, Stupid". Welcome to the world of planing a con:)
The AA tables are keep reasonably priced as they are though, as far as AA operations go I don't think that's an area that needs focusing on ^^;;
Glad to see this thread used for more general AA chat/suggestions though. It wouldn't be Fanime without all our talented artists afterall.
Fetta, have you been posting this on every con's forum? That first post is verbatim one I read on Anime Evolution's forum. This topic was posted on DeviantArt by a fairly well known artist, and the reaction was far from positive. Also, you posted the same followup about tickets.
This is just my opinion, but in no way, under any circumstance, should a convention tax its artists. Ever. Not only is it a financial/logistical nightmare for the artist, on top of taxes we have to pay to state, local and federal levels - it's a nightmare for the convention staff. Fanime will have around 200 tables this year. Who's going to police 200 or more artists and request forms and receipts from all of them? Some artists make a lot of money in AA, but it's maybe $2000-$3000 at most (only the most popular reach those figures.. maybe less artists than you can count on two hands). Subtract the costs of attendance (airfare, food, hotel, registration), cost of materials (paper, ink, printing, etc) and state and federal taxes. Artists in AA really don't reap a ton of profit. Think about the other 90% of artists who are lucky to make a couple hundred bucks, if at all. Personally I barely break even for the cost of my stay. Moreover, the very idea is very unfriendly to the fostering of a creative and open, independent atmosphere. It seems like a very big-business thing to do. Any con willing to implement a practice such as taxing artists deserves the significant drop in artist attendance they would inevitably incur.
I didn't know at the time I read that idea that it was actively being promoted elsewhere and was actually in pratice at a con already, I figured such a poor idea had no traction what so ever.
I'm almost of the mind that most of the people going around spreading this idea are actually against it, and are doing this to demonstrate how unpopular it is by showing how much negative feedback it recieves.
I hear we are allowing those two I mentioned earlier in the thread table space : ( I'm pretty saddened.