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FanimeCon Events and Discussionmentarianism => Big Event Showcase => Topic started by: Okach on May 29, 2012, 05:44:05 PM

Title: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 29, 2012, 05:44:05 PM
Since the overwhelming majority of unhappiness concerning the Ball this year centered around the Dress Code, I have the joy of taking on the task of overhauling it.  :-\  So, I'm posting here to solicit some help from you the attendee.  Let's set up some of the goals -

1)  The Code has to be specific enough such that the Ball Staff, the Rovers and the attendees are all able to understand the contents and apply them.
2)  The Code maintains the semi-formal atmosphere of the Ball.  So, no "let's ban the Dress Code" :-P.
3)  The Code reduces the risk of injury to the ConGoer during the course of the Ball.
4)  The Code protects those assets to the Ball required for continued production of the Ball (that would be mainly the dance floor).
5)  The Code is flexible enough to handle unforeseen situations.

For the record, this year's code went haywire on items 1 and 5.  3 was a moderate success, and 4 was added after seeing how nice and shiny the new floor is and the realization that we have it for the next two years.

Your quest is to come up with a Code that can fulfill the five goals as fully as possible.  You may ask as many questions as you like from me (and other staffers will appear once in a while to weigh in).  

Here's this year's code as a starting point:
http://2012.fanime.com/events/black-white-ball/
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: kookiekween99 on May 29, 2012, 06:55:11 PM
Is there any way to be more lenient on shoes at all? My friend's date was going to go, but he forgot his dress shoes at home. :(

Also, just as a suggestion: You should make a quick note in the code itself about how to check for non-mark soles. While I was in the bathroom, I overheard two girls talking and trying to figure out why she was asked to scrape her foot on the ground. "What, did he think I had a bomb in my shoe or something? I don't get it..." and I jumped into the conversation and explained to them "It's so they can make sure your shoes won't leave marks on the dancefloor." and they were like "Oh! That makes a lot of sense! Thanks!"
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: ScarlettFaythe on May 29, 2012, 07:11:30 PM
:/ Making sure shoes don't mark the floor is fine, but the entire restriction of dress shoes is ridiculous. A lot of the times, even if the shoes are not formal, they fit the outfit. I honestly would rather see a semi-formal outfit with shoes that match but aren't fancy than a semi-formal outfit with semi-formal shoes that look stupid or are the wrong color. After all, guys hardly EVER need semi-formal shoes for anything, and if they do, probably only one pair in one color. Us girls get it easy, we buy heels and flats all the time.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 29, 2012, 07:33:54 PM
@ScarlettFaythe - And on the other end of spectrum, I winced every time last Sunday I saw someone dressed up completely except for a ratty pair of Converse high tops.  There are specific events/studios that prohibit the use of street shoes entirely on the dance floor because of the chance that grit tracked in will get caught underfoot and scratch up the floor.   As this is a portable floor that can withstand some amount of rough handling, my feeling is that we don't have to go that far :P.  However, I'm still waiting on a report from the vendor on the total damage found on the floor - we found a bunch of rubber streaks on the floor after the Ball that hopefully aren't permanent.  I'll post the results when I get them.  

@kookie - Yes, part of the idea is to post in the eventual new dress code why we're doing certain things.  Of course, this thread is also intended to do that.

As for the rest,  if you were in charge, what would you think would be fair keeping in mind the goals stated?  
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Nina Star 9 on May 29, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
I personally witnessed many, many people at the Ball this year who were obviously breaking dress code who were let in. Skirts that were way too short, heels that were way too high and narrow (some of which were worn by people who obviously weren't used to heels, as well!) and couldn't possibly be mistaken for the diameter of a nickel, non-formal clothing, etc. I know that my date had a difficult time finding shoes that worked in her size, and she ended up in a pair of very uncomfortable flats because the heels she wanted supposedly weren't allowed, yet we saw plenty of people in shoes that were even less conforming to the dress code than hers would have been. (I also had to wear shoes that were a bit less comfortable than ideal, since I was told I wasn't allowed to wear my boots, though mine weren't bad at all.)

I think that there needs to be better enforcement of the dress code actually at the event, since the enforcement seems spotty at best (and perhaps too strict in some of the areas where it is enforced).



There's also a lot of problematic wording with the dress code. I seriously dislike the gendered breakdown of the dress code, the implication that woman wearing pants is "crossplay," no mention at all of crossdressing for men, etc. etc. I would do away entirely with the gendered breakdown and go with specific clothing item breakdowns, like what kinds of pants are acceptable, what kinds of dresses or skirts are acceptable, what kinds of shoes are acceptable, etc., rather than breaking it down in very gender-specific terms. It might seem easier, but it not only actually makes things more difficult, but can be bordering on offensive to the genderqueer. I like the idea of a chart that makes it easier, but maybe have the rows as "pants," "tops," "shoes," etc. and the columns as "allowed" and "not allowed" to make it easier for everyone and to allow for someone to see what is acceptable to wear regardless of gender or sex.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: keitoghostie on May 29, 2012, 08:50:42 PM
Quote from: Nina Star 9 on May 29, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
There's also a lot of problematic wording with the dress code. I seriously dislike the gendered breakdown of the dress code, the implication that woman wearing pants is "crossplay," no mention at all of crossdressing for men, etc. etc. I would do away entirely with the gendered breakdown and go with specific clothing item breakdowns, like what kinds of pants are acceptable, what kinds of dresses or skirts are acceptable, what kinds of shoes are acceptable, etc., rather than breaking it down in very gender-specific terms. It might seem easier, but it not only actually makes things more difficult, but can be bordering on offensive to the genderqueer. I like the idea of a chart that makes it easier, but maybe have the rows as "pants," "tops," "shoes," etc. and the columns as "allowed" and "not allowed" to make it easier for everyone and to allow for someone to see what is acceptable to wear regardless of gender or sex.

Yeah I totally agree with this, that'd be much better!
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 29, 2012, 11:22:18 PM
@Nina - thanks for the comment!



Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Somebody on May 30, 2012, 12:28:30 AM
Quote from: Nina Star 9 on May 29, 2012, 08:36:51 PM


There's also a lot of problematic wording with the dress code. I seriously dislike the gendered breakdown of the dress code, the implication that woman wearing pants is "crossplay," no mention at all of crossdressing for men, etc. etc. I would do away entirely with the gendered breakdown and go with specific clothing item breakdowns, like what kinds of pants are acceptable, what kinds of dresses or skirts are acceptable, what kinds of shoes are acceptable, etc., rather than breaking it down in very gender-specific terms. It might seem easier, but it not only actually makes things more difficult, but can be bordering on offensive to the genderqueer. I like the idea of a chart that makes it easier, but maybe have the rows as "pants," "tops," "shoes," etc. and the columns as "allowed" and "not allowed" to make it easier for everyone and to allow for someone to see what is acceptable to wear regardless of gender or sex.

Yes, absolutely! I would very much like to see this.
Additionally, regardless of gender orientation, overall I often prefer professional attire other than a dress and was confused if I would even be let in unless my wearing of suit and pants was official crossplay. Being that the Ball is my favorite event, I brought 3 different outfits in fear I might not be let in! This was a huge hassle on my suitcase though that I would like not to repeat.

I would say also that the dress code was quite variant(?). Many of the gals I danced with had apparently snuck back onto the floor in heels not safe for the floor, and were quickly reprimanded. I had been under the impression however that they would not be let in at all. By the time I arrived there was in particular one staff lady who was keeping things very tight in the shoe district.
However, and perhaps it was due to the late nature of which we arrived, a few of my group members whom I had reprimanded and argued with over their attire (t-shirts hidden under cheap kimonos and a suit jacket but still quite visible) were still let in. I was happy that we were not turned away to go change for such, but also confused at how they managed to pass the inspection.

All in all, the only real frustration I had with the Ball (aside from missing so much of it!) would be that the dancing style for each song was not promptly changed- often not showing up until we were well into the song and causing a halt on the dance floor, and that we were yelled at to leave while attempting to gather our stuff when the ball ended. (However, when we explained the staff lady did apologize, so our feelings weren't too hurt. As to the prior, would a set list be possible? I'm sure it's been asked before but I haven't yet read why there isn't both.)

Just a quick personal side note, but were all the more experienced dancers there early? By the time I got there hardly any of those left seemed to know what they were doing- no one followed the dance suggestions or patterns of the dance floor (occasionally making it difficult to dance such waltzes and so) and I found that all but one dance partner I had did not take any of the classes or have any experience, leaving me teaching or attempting to teach all night! : / My partners were all lovely people but it made me a sad panda to not be able to put my ballroom dancing skills to use.

I absolutely loved the new location! I truly hope you have it at Parkside Hall again, as the ample space to relax, practice, and dance both on and off the wooden floor were wonderful indeed. Very comfortable setting, closer to the convention (or at least the hotel at which I stayed), and the tape marking the direction of dance were excellent! Thank you for a great time!
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Nyanko on May 30, 2012, 12:44:38 AM
I already posted this in another feedback area but ill put it here too. And i agree with previous posts, i saw a TON of girls breaking dress code. Very much so in the realm of shoes. I went out and bought shoes that fit the dress code and then saw girls walking around in stilettos....i have a ton of stilettos, a few that would of matched my dress better and were taller so i wouldnt of been stepping on my dress all night. I borrowed it from a friend who's a bit taller then me so i couldnt get it altered to my height, but then i couldnt compensate with higher heels cuz they werent 'allowed'. I understand we want a good crowd turnout for the ball, but its very frustrating to see the code basically thrown to the wind when others have made the effort to be in proper attire. So yes it stinks to turn people away, but...well, too bad, your not up to code. I don't know how the code could of been any more explanitory, i mean i read it and understood it just fine. Heels the size of a nickel...pretty explanitory, go to your closet, grab a nickel, grab your heels, measure. Dresses no higher than 2 inches..put your dresses on, grab a ruler or tape measure, measure.
All in all just stick to the dress code you put up Fanime because nothing is more frustrating to say no to one person and then turn around and say yes to another who is wearing the same basic stuff.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 30, 2012, 12:51:43 AM
Understood - that's the main reason I'm waiting for the report from the vendor on the floor condition.  Depending on how mangled the floor is, the shoe restrictions can be adjusted.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Wabbit98 on May 30, 2012, 07:11:44 AM
In the future, if you feel you see a dress code violation you can always ask a Rover to check it out for you.  It is at times hard to see specific things with so many people in the room at once.

-Kevin
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 30, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
I'd like some opinions on the high heel restrictions while we're waiting for the report back from the vendor.  I especially want to hear from the experienced ballroom crowd. Here's the background:

The heel height restriction is based on a concern for personal safety.  Heels higher than four inches do tend to contort the foot and possibly imbalance the wearer.  Couple that with a slightly slick dance floor (which ours now is) and your chances of taking a nasty spill is increased.  Our dance floor also has about an inch of rise from the level of the carpet when installed, which does increase the hazard of tripping, but I'm not quite as worried about that since almost everyone will instinctively step on the floor rather than shuffle their way on. 

The nickel heel diameter restriction is based on protection of the dance floor.  Even on a ballroom dance shoe the heel can have a hard rubber tip that driven with at least 50% body weight can generate enough force to dent a hardwood floor.  Some of the members on our team who have that type of shoe have plastic heel protectors that mount on the tip to protect the floor.  Would it be fair to allow heels in as long as these are used? 
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: princesskitty18 on May 30, 2012, 08:49:04 AM
Quote from: Nina Star 9 on May 29, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
I think that there needs to be better enforcement of the dress code actually at the event, since the enforcement seems spotty at best (and perhaps too strict in some of the areas where it is enforced).
unfortunately there was some misommunication between the staff itself and the rovers
when i was workin door, i had one girl who, after being allowed in by a rover, unfortunately got kicked out by one of our staff members due to her show size.
so for anyone and everyone that had been let in and then kicked out, i/we apologize for that
hopefully we can find better ways to communicate with the rovers so that we're all on the same page as far as  dress code goes

i also agree with your idea of makin the dress code gender-neutral. i believe that'll allow more ppl to dress freely, as one of my friends did a couple of years ago, since she went to the ball in a suit that was on par with her cosplay

Quote from: Somebody on May 30, 2012, 12:28:30 AM
All in all, the only real frustration I had with the Ball (aside from missing so much of it!) would be that the dancing style for each song was not promptly changed- often not showing up until we were well into the song and causing a halt on the dance floor, and that we were yelled at to leave while attempting to gather our stuff when the ball ended. (However, when we explained the staff lady did apologize, so our feelings weren't too hurt. As to the prior, would a set list be possible? I'm sure it's been asked before but I haven't yet read why there isn't both.)

Just a quick personal side note, but were all the more experienced dancers there early? By the time I got there hardly any of those left seemed to know what they were doing- no one followed the dance suggestions or patterns of the dance floor (occasionally making it difficult to dance such waltzes and so) and I found that all but one dance partner I had did not take any of the classes or have any experience, leaving me teaching or attempting to teach all night! : / My partners were all lovely people but it made me a sad panda to not be able to put my ballroom dancing skills to use.
to touch up on a couple of ur points:
- again, miscommunciation between those at the door and what we as staff actually wanted so that was just a general problem for most of the night
no clue as to how they got through security (altho im personally glad that they did) but that just tells us that we need to work harder on makin sure ppl are bein watched for their dress code

- unfortunately for the dance display, this is a new system that we worked with this year so there were some glitches that we had to deal with
we do have a prior set list and everything but we had to feng-shui a lot of things because we didnt have a projector this year and all that other stuff

- i wouldn't know about the more experienced dancers but even i coudl tell towards the end that ppl were kind of just dancing around and jumping around
im glad that u were able to teach some other people how to dance and hope that next year things might be a bit difference
as a side comment: maybe you can ask any of us staff members for a dance, since most if not all of us have some experience in all of the dances
:D just a thought for next year

i really hope that even with all the misgivings of the ball this year that u still had fun

Quote from: Okach on May 30, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
I'd like some opinions on the high heel restrictions while we're waiting for the report back from the vendor.  I especially want to hear from the experienced ballroom crowd. Some of the members on our team who have that type of shoe have plastic heel protectors that mount on the tip to protect the floor.  Would it be fair to allow heels in as long as these are used? 
hey alfred. my only issue wit this is that not everyone would have the opportunity to get those plastic heel protectors. i saw rose's heels and they had the heel protector but her shoes are also pretty basic ballroom shoes. mine for example aren't normal ballroom heels and i have no idea if i could find heel protectors to fit my heels. you cant expect ppl that dont normally do ballroom dancing to get heel protectors especially if they're only goin to use it once or if they dont have the right heels for those protectors (im not sure if they come in certain sizes)
my general point is that makin the heel protectors sort of a regulation would actually deny a lot of the people that come. just a thought

- jackie
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Charis on May 30, 2012, 10:10:55 AM
One thing that actually bothered me a lot about the dress code was the distinction between cosplay and non-cosplay -- specifically the "boots are allowed for cosplay but not if you're out of cosplay".  Now, I'm a cosplayer, and what I wore to the Ball was formal cosplay, but I find it unfair that I could hypothetically wear boots but (for example) a friend who wasn't cosplaying couldn't.  (I tend to prefer dress boots as formal shoes, mostly because I like the extra bit of ankle support they provide.  Not sure if I'd have run into any problems because I wound up sticking to the shoes I'd worn earlier in the day, which are actually leather-soled ballroom shoes, but the principle still stands.)

I know, in people I've talked to, there's been a lot of friction to rules being in place for "personal safety".  While it's true that someone not used to 4" heels will be awkward in them and more likely to do damage, there are people who are perfectly comfortable in them -- and the same people who might be awkward in 4" heels might be equally awkward in 2" ones.  Heck, the people used to taller heels might also be, simply because they're used to that way of holding themselves.  I understand that rules need to be painted in broad strokes for ease of application, but that's one that might want to be reviewed for wording.  The same people who will chafe at heel restrictions for safety will understand better if it's for something like protecting the dance floor.

If you do allow heel protectors, it would be nice to have examples and/or links to places where people can find them.  I think that might be a nice middle ground on the heel size restriction.  (In general, providing specific examples in the dress code could be really helpful -- possibly with pictoral examples so there's less room for argument.)

Adding my vote for the nongendered clothing guidelines as well.

While waiting in line for the Masquerade, a friend who'd been turned away from the Ball before looked across and saw a girl who was wearing the same flats he'd been told he couldn't wear into the Ball the year before -- and his had been part of a cosplay.  I don't recall whether I saw the girl inside later or not, but I know my friend was kind of grumpy about it.  It does seem as if there's an unevenness of application in the rules, and while I understand there will always be exceptions and rules realistically can't be unilaterally applied, consistency would go a long way.

Question: I know the dress code was posted up in multiple locations, but was it in the programme book?  I never actually wound up looking at mine this year. <_<;
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 30, 2012, 11:23:33 AM
@Charis - was your friend actually given a reason why the shoes were verboten?  Not dressy, mark the floor, etc.?  We tried to stick pictures in the dress code this year, but couldn't find a balance between text and pictures - and if we tried "this not that" photos we probably could have put out our own program :). 

As for safety considerations, there's a sliding scale involved.  We banned boots this year because of stomp injuries last year.  However, we had a crowded floor that might have increased the likelihood of stomp injuries.  This year none were reported (I think the only real injury this year was someone running into a trash can), probably because our dancer density on the floor was much lower.  So, if we somehow end up with last Year's density on this Year's dance floor next year, then is there anything we can do to lower injury severity and likelihood.  Our concern over high heels also has this as a consideration.

Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Charis on May 30, 2012, 11:54:23 AM
Pictures up online, rather than in the programme book! :D It gives people a reference beforehand.  I know we can always ask here, but for those going shopping it gives a vague idea.  (IMO, it'd be especially helpful with soles -- one can't always test out shoes in a store for whether they'll mark or not.)

I don't recall what reason he was given in '11 as for why the shoes were forbidden; I know it wasn't marking concerns.  Probably formality, though they are what's appropriate with the cosplay and time period in question (it was on the style of Chinese flats).

I really do appreciate that you guys are always quick to comment and provide feedback on the attire questions thread, though -- even if we don't always like the answers, it's good to know earlier rather than later, and to know WHY makes things at least more understandable. :)  (I forget -- are the attire guidelines on the Fanime site linked to that thread?  If not, it might be useful; sort of a "if you have any questions at all, PLEASE ask here first".)
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: le_momo on May 30, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
@Charis
We'll definitely take that into consideration! If we don't get pictures up on the website, do you think having them here on the forums would help? I just checked the Fanime website and didn't notice a link to the forums other than music requests, so hopefully the attire question thread can be linked on that page next year as well.

I'll have you know that we seriously appreciate the feedback you all are giving us! Without this, it would be mainly a discussion with fellow staffers and that is hard getting all the varied opinions on the subject. Though we have several ideas milling around already for next year, I definitely like open communication between us (the staff and instructors) and you (the con-goers). :)


On a personal side-note, what does anyone think about changing the 2-inch-above-the-knee rule for skirt/dress length into a "fingertip" rule? There were so many ladies I noticed who, after passing the rovers and dress code check, had miraculously had skirts that were much higher than mid-thigh. Do you think that if a fingertip rule was put into play, it would be more successful over what we have now? It would be easier to check on our part, but it would also help with maintaining the atmosphere we strive so hard to create for everyone.

- Rebecca
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: princesskitty18 on May 30, 2012, 12:23:56 PM
Quote from: le_momo on May 30, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
On a personal side-note, what does anyone think about changing the 2-inch-above-the-knee rule for skirt/dress length into a "fingertip" rule? There were so many ladies I noticed who, after passing the rovers and dress code check, had miraculously had skirts that were much higher than mid-thigh. Do you think that if a fingertip rule was put into play, it would be more successful over what we have now? It would be easier to check on our part, but it would also help with maintaining the atmosphere we strive so hard to create for everyone.

- Rebecca
hey becca, i dont think that that'll do much of a difference. i personally had my own mistake when it came my dress but it was also a last resort. from my experience wit high school and skirt lengths and rules, it's almost impossible to fully enforce those rules. we should just straight up draw a line at the knee and enforce that. we had rulers at the door and it was still hard from what u noticed and anyone else too. just my input :)
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: saebel on May 30, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Okach on May 30, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
I'd like some opinions on the high heel restrictions while we're waiting for the report back from the vendor.  I especially want to hear from the experienced ballroom crowd. 

I guess I count as 'experienced ballroom crowd,' but not sure if you meant a non-B&W Ball-affiliate :)

I'd say that in general, the reason for the heel height restriction falls into three categories (from a ballroom perspective): personal safety, floor integrity, and (in all honesty, most importantly) the safety for those around you.  Particularly when it comes to high-floor density -- you're less likely to slip and kill yourself than you are to step on someone and really jack up their foot.  The higher the heel, the more it'll hurt.

I actually was wondering to myself this year if having heel protectors would help bridge that gulf between stiletto and acceptable - but the thing is, most heel protectors are designed for ballroom shoes, which already naturally have a wider base to begin with.  They won't work on stiletto points.  Still, if your shoes are straddling that line, they're pretty cheap - the last set I got was about $4.  I'm guessing they'd be $6 now, maybe?  You can get them from any ballroom shoe seller; most large cities has at least one peddler of such goods.  The real reason most people have them is that A) it preserves the heel tip for longer and B) they're non-marking.  Benefits your wallet, benefits the floor.

Does this answer your question, Okach?  Hmm.


Also, side comment re: dress code in general - I was actually hoping the fact that I've shown up every year in pants would indicate that yes, you can be dressy without having to wear a dress.  Guess we'll have to make that explicit!  :)
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 30, 2012, 12:54:37 PM
@saebel - we can also ban spiky points with the test of whether you are afraid of having it stick in your head if it is swung at you.  ;).  Thank you for the info.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Somebody on May 30, 2012, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: princesskitty18 on May 30, 2012, 08:49:04 AM

to touch up on a couple of ur points:
- again, miscommunciation between those at the door and what we as staff actually wanted so that was just a general problem for most of the night
...

- unfortunately for the dance display, this is a new system that we worked with this year so there were some glitches that we had to deal with
we do have a prior set list and everything but we had to feng-shui a lot of things because we didnt have a projector this year and all that other stuff

- i wouldn't know about the more experienced dancers but even i coudl tell towards the end that ppl were kind of just dancing around and jumping around
im glad that u were able to teach some other people how to dance and hope that next year things might be a bit difference
as a side comment: maybe you can ask any of us staff members for a dance, since most if not all of us have some experience in all of the dances
:D just a thought for next year

i really hope that even with all the misgivings of the ball this year that u still had fun


Ahhh, good to know! And yes, I had plenty and plenty of fun, the things I mentioned were really minor speedbumps if anything. I'll have to consider finding a staff member who might be interested in a dance, although I'd hope I wouldn't bore them as I'm likely not quite as experienced!

Thanks to all the staff for working so hard on this, the ball really saved Sunday, as the rest of the day hadn't been going so well for me. Can't wait for next year!  :D
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Nina Star 9 on May 30, 2012, 03:08:32 PM
I remember asking on the forums previously about heel protectors and was told no. I would love it if they were allowed.

Personally, I'm probably less stable in flats than in 4" heels, to honest, haha. I wear heels all the time and am used to them, not to mention that I've always walked on the balls of my feet from about the time I could walk, so it feels more natural to me. I can work within the 4" limit, though. I also prefer boots for the ankle support, and don't think I would stomp harder on someone's foot just because I have fabric/PU/leather/etc. around my leg in addition to around my foot. Dress heels and dress boots really aren't that different aside from the shaft (and the boots aren't a whole lot heavier), so I'd rather just see boots allowed. I can understand those large platform boots, things like heavy combat boots, etc. being banned, but something that's basically a pump that extents up the calf isn't that different from essentially a boot that is cut lower than the ankle.

I agree that rules need to be implemented across the board, cosplay or not. It seems really silly to me to allow certain things just because an outfit happens to be a costume, and not allow the exact same things when the outfit isn't. I'd rather see the same rules apply equally to everyone.



I thought I mentioned the confusion aspect of the gendered dress code (women possibly not eing allowed to wer pants extect as part of a costume, no mention of men wearing dresses or skirts, etc.), but I guess it wasn't clear enough. When your dress code is confusing at best and offensive at worst, it really needs to be changed, I think. ;) Glad others agree!
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 30, 2012, 04:56:42 PM
@Nina - Oh, I agree.  Now I get to do something about it :).

I suspect that if I sit here and try to list every conceivable item of clothing that can be worn to the Ball, it would be a rather long day of typing.  We already ran into taxonomy issues on boots this year (dress boots?  Desert boots?  Chukkas?  platforms?  combat boots?  engineer?) enough that it was easier to do the blanket ban except for cosplay.

As for the justification on cosplay, the rationale goes that if you're going to take the time to put together an outfit, we don't want to block you and waste your effort, especially if you flew in and all you could pack was just the cosplay outfit.  On the other hand, I probably don't want to see a Poison cosplay at the Ball.  Yay, more contemplation.

Report from floor vendor - Floor came through mainly in good shape, with a few scuff marks and a few dings.  What does this mean?  More thinking.  Anyone got a psi meter suited to measuring shoe impacts? ;).
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 31, 2012, 03:50:40 PM
Here's a thought -

would explanatory Youtube videos help?
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: princesskitty18 on May 31, 2012, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Okach on May 31, 2012, 03:50:40 PM
Here's a thought -

would explanatory Youtube videos help?
possibly if they're really really well advertised
we can maybe open it up to general questions through the forums and make a video response in answer to the questions
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on May 31, 2012, 04:07:38 PM
I'd rather explain it and answer questions on the forum thread.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: princesskitty18 on May 31, 2012, 04:14:21 PM
Quote from: Okach on May 31, 2012, 04:07:38 PM
I'd rather explain it and answer questions on the forum thread.
thats plausible too
then make a video about the dress code in general, and then answer any other questions
the key thing is to make sure its advertised that we have a youtube video about the dress code and stuff like that
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: shashinkun on June 01, 2012, 08:54:53 PM
To be fair, inconsistency in applying rules doesn't just happen at the B&W ball - Try to get a straight answer on whether Rovers are allowed to go in through the "out" door  ;D

Here's my (personal) view on shoes:


Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Okach on June 01, 2012, 11:28:03 PM
@shashinkun

Way the heck back, we thought that "what you would wear to a wedding" was a decent level of description (different event).  People don't think the same way about a subject, oddly enough :P.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: WhentheAngelscry on June 03, 2012, 12:24:06 PM
I truly love the Black and White Ball and think it's a lot of fun. As far as the dress code I think that if you're going to ban 4" heels or boots cosplayers shouldn't be allowed in. I mean if your basis for letting them in is they put a lot of effort in to putting together that outfit I can argue that some dress up ensembles take just as long to put together if not longer. It really sucks when you have to be turned away and then see someone wearing the same kind of violation walk right in cause it was part of their cosplay. So if you are going to make a blanket rule please make it apply to all.
I agree with Nina Star and Charis that some people are truly more comfortable in 4" heels. I know it sounds weird but I become a complete klutz when I wear two inch heels while in 4 inch one I can dance for 4 hours straight. I'd gladly close my eyes and spin around in them. I'd love to see explanation videos and real life examples rather than just the drawings. As a side not the drawings are adorable and please don't get rid of them if possible.
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Stinasaur on June 03, 2012, 08:50:37 PM
Just a bit of input/observations from an innocent staff member/dancer who had epic door duty halfway through the event:

- heel size/length: The hardest part of monitoring this was 1) lack of lighting and a pink translucent ruler. I can't begin to tell you how many times I had to estimate appropriate shoe attire lengthwise. Since there was ample room for dancing in places NOT on the floor, the rule changed to you may only dance on the floor if your shoes are appropriate, otherwise you will have to be asked to dance on the carpet. However, this was given to staff halfway through the event. Perhaps some heads up sooner would have worked but things happen. Also, the event was being monitored on the floor as well and any situations were cleared up as fast as possible. An idea I came up with (which can be easily done with a bit of spare time and basic art class knowledge) is to create a sort of scale where the base is flat but has a hole in it that is the size of a nickel. Attached to the side is a two-sided ruler. Any questionable heel size/length can simply step into the scale. If the shoe fits, wear it. No questions asked. If not, have a backup. This idea is simply in the brainstorming phase, but perhaps it's something that can be discussed both here and at meetings. As far as soles are concerned, the store I buy all my dance attire at has a fairly legit sized plank of wood from a professional ballroom dance floor that customers can use to rub their shoes on, spin, tap, whatever to assure that their shoe is appropriate for classes and able to do what they need them to do. Surprisingly, some dance shoes do have rubber soles which do leave marks. So one can buy said shoe, thinking that it is appropriate for dancing (technically it is) and come to find out it's no bueno. Perhaps we have a plank of wood similar to the floor that we can use for this purpose as well?


-Appropriate dress attire: Sadly, it's difficult to notice every little thing.... and let's be honest, some people think it's cute to slip on by, even though it just makes it hard on everyone else. For me, I tried my best to honestly check all appropriate attire and was pretty impressed with how hard everyone worked to make their attire as classy as possible. While some things may waver at times, the staff and frequent returning guests uphold the mindset that BW Ball is a classy, yet entertaining, affair. A step above prom, but not so strict and stuffy. We DO want you all to enjoy yourselves and be as comfortable as possible without looking like a scrub. There's only so much we can do. The rest comes down to someone's personal view of "classy vs trashy".
Also, I can't tell you how many times I had to stop people from entering, explain their situation and either hear "i wore this previously at (insert event here) and I did fine/it worked perfectly." or had pulled people aside only to have no one watching them OR the front door and have them slip by. (.... really? I appreciate your excitement to have fun at the event, but come on.) It's a challenge.

- Misc.: While I was overjoyed at the idea of having the assistance of the rovers, I at times felt slightly overwhelmed. Having a group of 5-6 people at the entrance and ONLY manning the "enter" door was a little too much, and everyone would get caught up on that one person who had that one dress code issue, thus stopping the flow of getting people in and out efficiently. I think there should be ropes that define an "entrance" and "exit" with proper signage. Also, perhaps scattering that lovely chunk of people down the hallway (seeing as how we had ample space to do so) to stand watch and be on standby/relief should an instance occur. The biggest issue is that, upon arrival, people just zip on in, assuming that because they're dressed up and at the con that they don't have to stop and pass a security check. Just to be clear, there are certain points rovers/staff are checking upon arrival: VALID BADGE, APPROPRIATE ATTIRE (both formal and cosplay), APPROPRIATE SHOES (length, style, heel width), and some even check for additional oddities (illegal substances, weapons, etc). It's impossible to do this in the span of 15-30 seconds and still manage traffic control. Perhaps some stations are in order?
Idea: Station 1: Entrance - badge/person check. Do you have a valid badge? Are you attempting to smuggle illegal substances/items in? -----> Basically officiating official "con rules" and not being so BW Ball specific? Rovers are best at this, I think.
        Station 2: Attire/Shoe Check: Is your attire/cosplay appropriate? (We had an issue with Pedobear trying to sneak in.....) Are you shoes meeting appropriate guidelines for dancing safely and securely (not just for YOU but for potential partners as well)? ------> BW Ball staff can handle this and there won't be any communication issues.
        Station 3: Special Issues (any and all): If it didn't get resolved between the last two stations, kick it here. A BW Ball Head/2nd or higher staff will be there to assist you and have the final say.
        Station 4: Stamp Zone: If you've passed all of these checkpoints, you get a handstamp that signals that you are all clear and can enter/exit happily. To obtain one, you get a ticket from the attire/shoe station and you hand it over to the person at the door.

While all of this sounds stiff and almost micromanaged, it helps clear up confusion and can give a clear definition of what is and is not ok for the ball. From there, if it still seems sketchy once people are on the floor, it's gonna be on the person themselves because staff can honestly say they've done everything possible to prevent it.
In the end, it's really down to effective communication with everyone.

Thoughts? Especially from my fellow staffers. :)
Title: Re: Black & White Ball Dress Code Discussion
Post by: Wabbit98 on June 03, 2012, 09:53:10 PM
@Stinasaur - Which innocent staffer are you again?  I forget at times.  Since I have been doing this for awhile, not my first rodeo I will quickly go over a bit of what you were talking about.

Heel size -- that is something to think about.  But in the end that would cost money, I don't know how much and with our video projection screen situation in flux it will take some long and hard thinking about it.  I thought the thing about on the carpet was communicated?  If not we will work on any communication issues next year.  Plank of wood : money and also could be stolen or misplaced.  Not saying it is a bad idea.

Misc. -- When I was at the front with Rebecca, I stood at one side and just looked at shoes.  The Rover in front looked at the rest of the outfit and another checked badges most of the time.  If I felt we had a problem I directed the people off to the side to talk to either Rebecca or one of the Rovers.  After we switched I do not know how the people at the front handled it.  I basically left it up to them.  The Rovers are there to back you up, if you do not feel comfortable explaining to someone why their attire is inappropriate or they become combative you can always get a Rover to explain to them and they can escalate the issue if they need too.  If you come back, and are at the door, in the future my recommendation would be to have someone off to the side to handle problems.  So that the line can keep moving and not block anything.  Not a fan of the stamp zone, it is something that I might have mentioned years ago, but the logistics would be a nightmare, and also if people left the room they went to the lobby to hang out for a bit.  We did not have any room capacity issues like previous years.

-Kevin