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I'll admit I've used the word "cheap" on computer and human players before.
But I'm debating whether or not to quit using the word with video games. Maybe I'll only use it for computer opponents that I can't beat, I don't know.
Maybe there is no such thing as cheap, and it's all about skill.
I found an interesting piece about cheapness, but I'll post it later.

I dunno. What do you think?

"cheapness" is a lot like beauty, that is, everyone is gonna have a different opinion of what is cheap.

i was watching some newbs play Guilty Gear once, and one of them was using May. he kept using May's dolphin projectile over & over and the other guy thought it was cheap. i was like, "yea, right! u can so easily run under it!"

but yes, cheapness does exist, but the majority of the time, there is a way to get around it, so just learn to deal with it. tournaments are pretty much free-for-all-do-whatever-it-takes-to-survive. very, very, very few things are ever banned in tournaments, but if they are, it's not just because they're cheap, it's because they break the game.

It depends. You can get a "cheap kill" by exploiting an easy to execute but "difficult" to deal with technique versus an opponent who you know doesnt have the skill to handle it. May's dolphin is a good example of this. Yeah, you can run under it, but a newbie isnt going to know that and exploiting that to easily defeat an opponent you KNOW is inexperienced is a cheap kill, but that doesnt mean the attack itself, or even the employed strategy is, itself, "cheap." Its not my fault that guy sucks. He should practice and get better. You play against a more experiance opponent...youre going to lose.

It is rare that an actual move or humanly employable technique is "cheap." When this is the case, it is generally considered broken, and this is the sign of a bad game. If a character has a move that hits the whole screen and is unblockable....that's not just cheap, thats broken. The game wasnt QCed very well, and that results in a bad game.

Computer opponents are another matter entirely, however. The computer, ESPECIALLY in older games, is quite often very cheap, especially at higher difficulties. To make the game harder, computer opponents are sometimes (often?) given abilities and advantages that human players simply CANNOT replicate without literally cheating. Like in Street Fighter 2 when Guile does a Sonic Boom or Flash Kick WHILE WALKING TOWARD YOU. In Command and Conquer Generals, at higher difficulties of skirmish mode computers are given near infinite resources from the very beginning, allowing them to construct nearly their entire base and force without ever having to take time to gather, whereas human players start with next to nothing. I consider this to be pretty cheap.

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Quote from: deepbluevibes(removed per privacy policy)

Glitches are cheating. Thats like saying using a game genie (or a gameshark for you younguns) is "cheap." Its not really cheap, its just plain cheating.

Quote from: deepbluevibes(removed per privacy policy)

I dont see how this is cheap or anything. If you win three hundred matches in a row, you win three hundred matches in a row. What does it matter if they were all in one play session or not?

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Again, not cheap. Cheating.

Quote from: deepbluevibes(removed per privacy policy)

The second part I maybe agree with. The first part I dont.

A good player can beat a turtler. Its called "strategy." Just because I dont have every characters' moveset memorised in a fighting game and know the priority ranking of each possible attack doesnt mean I shouldnt be allowed to win if Im smarter than you. Turtlers can be beaten if youre good enough. The same can be said for campers, except continuous spawn camping. Theres nothing wrong with killing a fresh spawned guy, but if you just sit there and camp a spawn point thats not right. However, theres absolutely nothing wrong with camping a high traffic area. Its a good strategy, but easily foiled. If there is anyone of moderate skill playing, a camper will probably only get a few kills before theyre taken out. I myself specialise in killing campers. The only way camping is unfair is if there is just no way to get to the guy at all ever before he kills you. This is RARELY the case (most people just kinda suck <_<) but on the rare cases that it is, thats just plain poor level design. Not the camper's fault someone doesnt know how to make a decent map...but to be honest some of the best times Ive ever had in FPSes have been impromptu King of the Hill matches on unbalanced maps where one guy will grab a BFG or similer and camp a hallway or elevator shaft or something. Everyone in the map trys to storm the guy, and he'll get about a million kills but eventually someone takes him out and gets the weapon, and suddenly he's the man to beat. Good times.

OHHhhhhh yeah I believe in cheapness. Anyone who's fought Vega in Street Fighter II knows that pain.

I'm not sure if this is called "cheap" or "cheat" but...

In Initial D, I know it's either you shift rapidly to go fast or lose. Now, I don't know if this is what the programmers intend or not, but real driving/racing doesn't involve machine-gunning the shifter. I know games like that is not "real", but what is anymore? I play as my trusty Civic EG6 with automatic transmission and I can't do that same "technique". Instant loss then?

In the same sense, in Wangan Midnight Max. Tune 2, I've seen vids of world record times, and most involve hitting the wall to go faster... Think about it.... Hitting the wall is the fastest way? Whatever happened to the brake pedal and smooth driving?

Exploiting glitches may be cheating, but how about exploiting the game physics with no glitches?

I believe in cheapness. Like in DBZ Tenkaichi 2 there's Android 17. If you aren't able to dodge/block his combos, he can knock you into the air and hit you 3-4 times in the air....THEN follow with a special which charges your enemy while they are falling. After you fall to the ground he can continue this attack, which can be VERY hard to beat, unless you are VERY skilled at blocking and melee. I'd call this high cheapness.

Of course certain other chars can appear to be rather cheap...such as many of the Giants in DBZ Tenkaichi 2 who can grab and throw you while you're attacking them since they don't flinch...HOWEVER they are balanced in that they're slow. You can easily fly away and they couldn't catch you, or if you're fast enough with your char and good enough, you can use charged hits to get in damage. That kind of cheapness is medium cheatery, but not foolproof.

Cheapness depends upon the move, ability, etc, of the charecter or glitch or whatever, versus the skill required to be able to defeat this said cheapness, or if it's even beatable within the normal confines of the match.  Ie the difference between running under the dolphin...and being able to block and counterattack an infinite loop of ground to air combo and then charge attack.

Quote from: OtakuyaI'm not sure if this is called "cheap" or "cheat" but...

In Initial D, I know it's either you shift rapidly to go fast or lose. Now, I don't know if this is what the programmers intend or not, but real driving/racing doesn't involve machine-gunning the shifter. I know games like that is not "real", but what is anymore? I play as my trusty Civic EG6 with automatic transmission and I can't do that same "technique". Instant loss then?

Im pretty sure this is a trick used in the anime and manga, so I dont think its a glitch. It might not be realisitic, but it's keeping within the theme of the game. But if you can only do it on certain cars, and theres no way to make up for it on cars that cant do it...that may be a sign of balance issues...but again, I think thats just the way the anime and manga is. Some makes/models are better than others. It might not be "fair" if you like a certain make or model, but...thats the way Initial D (the media) is. Weather that makes the game "unbalanced" and weather that makes it a "bad" game is, in this case I think, subjective.

Quote from: OtakuyaIn the same sense, in Wangan Midnight Max. Tune 2, I've seen vids of world record times, and most involve hitting the wall to go faster... Think about it.... Hitting the wall is the fastest way? Whatever happened to the brake pedal and smooth driving?

Exploiting glitches may be cheating, but how about exploiting the game physics with no glitches?

I dont think its cheating just because its not realistic. Thats like saying Im a cheater in street fighter because noone can throw fireballs like that in real life. Thats just the way the game is made. Being able to use the game physics to your advantage like that is called "skill" ^_^0

Yeah, I think the A.I. buys his troops too early (probably a buck a soldier). Now that's CHEAP!

Communism --> You're all equal. Now DIE!

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or you could always look at Toki from Hokuto no Ken but that's just silly

The idea of "cheap" is only valid if there is absolutely nothing the player can do to get around it. Such as glitches and the what not.

Cammy Sagat Blanka isn't cheap at all, it's just top tier characters. You can play A-Blanka, Sakura, Bison and beat that team. Cammy/Sagat/Blanka is just easier to play is all.

Unless the character is  beyond overpowered(Gill in SF3, Ivan Ooze in Power Rangers the Movie:Fighting, Justice or gold version characters in Guilty Gear) then it's not cheap, just tiers.

Turtle Hibiki gets beat by empty jump in K-groove/P-Groove.All of hibiki's recovery are too slow to do shit. Hibiki never wins tournaments(unless your Cambell)

realistically, things aren't cheap...  because you can do them too.

.....Toki......

Toki vs Toki XD

Well, Hokuto no Ken is a terrible game regardless. So it doesn't even matter.

lolz but ya it looks like a mvc that actually takes some amout of skill to play

I remember when people used to yell cheap when folks rush in SC kekeke

People say that rush games are over too quickly....but they dont seem to realise that if youre good enough to rush, too, then you'll have a force bigger than theres by the time it gets to you, and you can repel them easily <_<

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There is no such thing as cheap...Only those who cant get around their opponents tactics. And as in regard to moves being banned, yeah its true but only because, as said, breaks the game.  Like for example: Ice climbers freeze glitch, mewtwo's soul stunner. Actually only a couple things are banned from smash...But anyways no such thing as cheap. Only those who cant get around their opponent's tactics.

Quote from: deepbluevibes(removed per privacy policy)

Not really, Hibiki isn't that hard. Vega(claw one) is a better character. Less range, but better options and more variable.

Beating hibiki is a zone game, force the poke roll through and do 35% to her. One wrong guess on hibiki's part and she loses 35%, if the have meter you lose 80%. She's theorhetically like strider/doom in MvC2. Super good, but a minor mistake and you die. She's not forgiving if you mess up minorly.

I don't know about DoA4... but in DoA3 he sucked. Ein raped everyone in DoA3. I don't like DoA much as it's not a serious fighting game. It's for casual players that just want to mess around.

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DoA is more of a game of rock paper scissors than anything else. Almost everything is safe to do as long as they didn't do the one thing that beats it... There's no risk in anything you do except for getting countered. There's no variation between characters at all(sure their moves are different, but you play them all exactly the same).

There is no such thing as ranging, zoning, poking, etc. There's no such thing as capitolizing frame advantage etc. etc. etc.

It's a trash game that's only played to mess around and have fun without getting technical.

Unlike Super Smash Brothers Melee :3

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I've played DoA4... i just haven't gotten to mess with it in retarded ways(like spend hours checking properties of moves, frames etc.).

But no. It's just like DoA3. The only major changes is damage on counters and counter length. It's still a trash game. You play grappler characters just like regular character...

The game becomes...

Press attack string and hope they get hit or tried to throw.

hit counter and hope they press attack string

hope they counter and throw.

Essentially that's what the game comes down to. I watched "high level DOA play" at evo, and fooled around with it enough to understand the game itself.

Because of speed and the amount of movement your character makes for merely pressing attack(hitting p twice movies you 1/4 of the screen) ranging doesn't exist... nor does poking. Everything is a guaranteed combo outside of one hit knock down moves...

Really, it's not meant to be deep or complicated, that's the ploy of the fighting(and the tits). If it was deep at all, it would have failed at doing it's job...

Smash Bros... isn't a fighting game. It's competitive and deep, but not a fighting game. It's as much of a fighting game as NES double dragon vs. mode, or Urban Champion, or even the fighting part of Blades of Steel.

QuoteI found an interesting piece about cheapness, but I'll post it later.

Ok, I'll post it now.

Warning:It might sound harsh, but I kinda agree with it. It's also an over 3-year old piece, but I think its still good.
Enjoy:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34747