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Post your favorite romance/drama series XP
I just finished watching Bokura Ga Ita, and although it got REALLY annoying at times, it was good...and since it is done, I have nothing left to watch D8

So basically, this is a "POST A GOOD SAPPY ANIME SO THAT VICTORIA HAS SOMETHING TO DO" thread.

Post post post! :D

My top ones in this category are Shingetsutan Tsukihime and Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. I'm also tempted to put down Elfen Lied, but there's a lot to that series that's disturbing instead of romantic...

Oh yeah, can't forget Key/Visual Arts anime, i.e. AIR, Kanon, and now Clannad.

For me, Tenchi Muyo in Love is pretty romantic. The movie was hella good and I emphatized and cheered for Tenchi's parents to get together and the whole courtship was funny, good and very romantic to watch.

I also liked Kare Kano, the manga at least and not the anime.

and Fushigi Yuugi as well.

Quote from: RyuHayabusa on December 01, 2007, 12:01:55 PMI also liked Kare Kano, the manga at least and not the anime.

I second this opinion.

Hm...  Most of the modern romantic anime I've run into tends to be more comedic than dramatic.  Maybe try Saishuuheiki Kanojo ("She, The Ultimate Weapon"), Voices of a Distant Star, Sentimental Journey, and Boys Be.  They all seem to be geared more towards boys, but I thought they're all good, and I think they fully qualify as romantic drama.

There are many varieties of anime that might qualify as romantic drama, but there are very few that concentrate more on the romance than the action and drama.  Ayashi no Ceres, for example, is very dramatic and romantic, but there's quite a bit of action in it.  Most shoujo in general seems to have romantic and dramatic aspects.  There's also male ideas of romance vs female ideas of romance.  (As far as I can tell, Yume de Aetera / If I See You In My Dreams, for example, tends to be viewed as more romantic by males and more just plain comedic by females.)  Shounen ai and yaoi can arguably qualify as romantic drama under some definitions.  I'm not sure which aspects of romance you're into.

Emma. [period]

The only ones that contend are the Key series (AIR, Kanon, Clannad) and EF~Tale of memories...

Personally, when I need a good romance I go to Howl's Moving Castle.  It's a movie, not a series, and  a lot of people think it's too simple.  But I love it...sigh.

Pyron's list, which will vary a lot compared to Jun's. Pyron also thinks some of you have warped views of "romantic drama" seeing that Air isn't a romantic drama(the series anyways, the game definitely is). And wow Sentimental Journey... a story about 1 guy that goes around and sleeps with 12 different girls in the course of about 2 years in 12 different parts of Japan.

I's(the comic... the cartoon was horrid)
Video Girl Ai(Though the cartoon was only like 1/3rd of the story, and comic is amazing)
Fruits Basket(comic, cartoon was too misleading comparatively)
Kare Kano comic minus everything after the introduction of Arima's parents. I wish I stopped at that point like my friends told me to do.
Rec
Emma 1st season, I hated 2nd season. If it ended at first season I would have been so happy.
Hana Yori Dango

Wow thinking about this, there haven't been too many romance drama's recently. All the "romance" series are based on eroge or are harem series. Anything else close isn't a romance drama, but comedy/harem series. Or action series. Really, you guys need to rethink your definition of "Romantic Drama" is. Every series has romance and drama in it(every... series...) that doesn't make it a romantic drama.

well it wasn't really romantic, but it was a little dramatic.

The last episode of Zero no Tsukaima season two, when Saito was gonna die and was dead, it actually made me cry a little too and its hard to make me cry. You wouldn't understand if you haven't seen the whole series. I suggest you should, its good. funny as hell and some drama from time to time.

Quote from: Teh Ramen Sage on December 01, 2007, 10:10:48 PM
well it wasn't really romantic, but it was a little dramatic.

The last episode of Zero no Tsukaima season two, when Saito was gonna die and was dead, it actually made me cry a little too and its hard to make me cry. You wouldn't understand if you haven't seen the whole series. I suggest you should, its good. funny as hell and some drama from time to time.

Thanks for the spoilers. -_-;;;

You should left it as a highlight option on your post.

Jun: I agree with Video Girl Ai(the manga). When I started reading that, man, I could really relate to the guy.

Quote from: Teh Ramen Sage on December 01, 2007, 10:10:48 PM
well it wasn't really romantic, but it was a little dramatic.

The last episode of Zero no Tsukaima season two,[CENSORED] although its a little to late for that.

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 01, 2007, 07:55:28 PMSentimental Journey... a story about 1 guy that goes around and sleeps with 12 different girls in the course of about 2 years in 12 different parts of Japan.

No...?  Weren't they were all different people...?  I didn't remember any characters being the same from episode to episode.  And there was no sleeping going on at all.  Have you seen it, or are you assuming it's just a dating sim?  That'd be a bad assumption.  The anime doesn't seem like it's based on a dating sim at all.

QuoteHana Yori Dango

Yes, I was thinking of including the whole line of shoujo like Hana Yori Dango, Marmalade Boy, Peach Girl, Paradise Kiss, Rose of Versailles, etc., but then I wasn't sure it'd qualify as romantic drama or just shoujo.

QuoteWow thinking about this, there haven't been too many romance drama's recently. All the "romance" series are based on eroge or are harem series.

Completely agreed.  Or they're just shoujo / action / "hive".  That's why I was reaching for other genres.

I enjoy Mahoromatic, Steel Angel Kurumi season 1, Please Teacher, and Please Twins.

Quote from: RyuHayabusa on December 02, 2007, 01:10:58 AM

Quote from: Teh Ramen Sage on December 01, 2007, 10:10:48 PM
well it wasn't really romantic, but it was a little dramatic.

The last episode of Zero no Tsukaima season two, when Saito was gonna die and was dead, it actually made me cry a little too and its hard to make me cry. You wouldn't understand if you haven't seen the whole series. I suggest you should, its good. funny as hell and some drama from time to time.

Thanks for the spoilers. -_-;;;

You should left it as a highlight option on your post.

Jun: I agree with Video Girl Ai(the manga). When I started reading that, man, I could really relate to the guy.

Actually, Pyron's the one who suggsted Video Girl Ai. I hated the series as a kid. XD

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 02, 2007, 07:32:54 PM

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 01, 2007, 07:55:28 PMSentimental Journey... a story about 1 guy that goes around and sleeps with 12 different girls in the course of about 2 years in 12 different parts of Japan.

No...?  Weren't they were all different people...?  I didn't remember any characters being the same from episode to episode.  And there was no sleeping going on at all.  Have you seen it, or are you assuming it's just a dating sim?  That'd be a bad assumption.  The anime doesn't seem like it's based on a dating sim at all.

My last post was typed by Pyron, but I'll reply. It was the same guy, but all different girls... but it isn't really a romantic drama series. Each episode is a standalone story about the protagonist and one girl at a time. But anyways, it is based off of a dating sim.

Quote

QuoteHana Yori Dango

Yes, I was thinking of including the whole line of shoujo like Hana Yori Dango, Marmalade Boy, Peach Girl, Paradise Kiss, Rose of Versailles, etc., but then I wasn't sure it'd qualify as romantic drama or just shoujo.

It's still romantic drama for the most part. Most real romantic dramas tend to be shoujo anime, as all the seinin-type anime direct at males tend to be harem, comedic, based off eroge, and whatnot.

Quote

QuoteWow thinking about this, there haven't been too many romance drama's recently. All the "romance" series are based on eroge or are harem series.

Completely agreed.  Or they're just shoujo / action / "hive".  That's why I was reaching for other genres.

Again, pretty much ALL anime has romance in them, but only a few are actually focused on the romance itself. You can do only so much with romance without being cheesy or cliche. Though, most shoujo anime and manga are romantic, since that's what is normally appealing to girls. There aren't many examples of series that are "just shoujo" without romance, if they exist at all.

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 01, 2007, 07:55:28 PMSentimental Journey... a story about 1 guy that goes around and sleeps with 12 different girls in the course of about 2 years in 12 different parts of Japan.
[...]
It was the same guy, but all different girls... but it isn't really a romantic drama series. Each episode is a standalone story about the protagonist and one girl at a time.

Hm.  OK, I looked up other people's opinions, and while I suppose that there might be mention of the same guy in all the episodes, I'd say that, at least, your idea of all the episodes being "about" the same protagonist strikes me as a very strange use of the word "about", and it doesn't seem totally unreasonable for me to watch the anime and not realize that the same guy might've been mentioned in all the episodes.

http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/3154.php says, "Sentimental Journey, a twelve episode series that was based on the game Sentimental Graffiti, is something of an odd duck show. In a way, it highlights one of the best aspects of the slice of life kind of romantic dramas that aren't made any more in that it doesn't get played as a harem show. Instead, it's a show that focuses on the young women in question and usually just them. By actually eliminating the male love interest and keeping him little more than a shadow for many of the tales, it gets rid of what's been a continual weakness in many romantic dramas."

QuoteHana Yori Dango - It's still romantic drama for the most part.

I personally see it as coming-of-age shoujo for the most part.  I personally think that Sentimental Journey is more of a romantic drama than Hana Yori Dango.  What Hana Yori Dango tries to pass off as romance strikes me as more abusive than romantic.

QuoteThere aren't many examples of series that are "just shoujo" without romance, if they exist at all.

Agreed.  By "just shoujo", I didn't mean "just shoujo without romance": by "just shoujo", I meant "not enough focus on romance or drama (compared to action, coming of age, or other elements) to fully qualify as "romantic drama".

There's no romance in SentiJourney though. It's just about the girls themselves and a quick episode about their personalities and their reminiscence of the guy that sexed them and disappeared in the past.

Hana Yori Dango has a lot of romantic drama/tension. It's the whole basis of the story and how she becomes a target, and the development between her and the members of the circle.

It's sorta like a Romeo and Juliet deal. Two people that socially, realistically, etc. that SHOULDN'T get together, that end up do getting together and the drama surrounding it etc.

Nana.

Quote from: KawaiiAngel on December 01, 2007, 10:59:35 AM"POST A GOOD SAPPY ANIME SO THAT VICTORIA HAS SOMETHING TO DO"

I nominate "5 Centimeters per Second" by Makoto Shinkai.

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 04, 2007, 12:56:16 AMHana Yori Dango has a lot of romantic drama/tension. It's the whole basis of the story and how she becomes a target, and the development between her and the members of the circle.

It's sorta like a Romeo and Juliet deal. Two people that socially, realistically, etc. that SHOULDN'T get together, that end up do getting together and the drama surrounding it etc.

OK, I can see your point of view.  I personally see Hana Yori Dango more as "coming of age shoujo".  From my point of view, it's a story of Makoto finding herself in this weird rich-kid school and figuring how out deal or fit in with the various cliques and people (both male and female).  In doing so, she also gets more insight into who she is, what her strengths and weaknesses are, when and how to stand up for herself, and what things might just need to be accepted as being simply beyond her control.  I think the romances are a significant part of the story because the social environment in reality does still seem to think that romance should play a significant part of a girl's growing up, but I personally consider the show to fit better under "coming of age shoujo" than "romantic drama".

Quote from: daiphyer.com on December 07, 2007, 02:21:44 AM
Nana.

I forgot about it. D: How could I...
~Seconds it~

Along with Nana, Paradise Kiss. >.<

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 07, 2007, 04:27:09 PM

OK, I can see your point of view.  I personally see Hana Yori Dango more as "coming of age shoujo".  From my point of view, it's a story of Makoto finding herself in this weird rich-kid school and figuring how out deal or fit in with the various cliques and people (both male and female).  In doing so, she also gets more insight into who she is, what her strengths and weaknesses are, when and how to stand up for herself, and what things might just need to be accepted as being simply beyond her control.  I think the romances are a significant part of the story because the social environment in reality does still seem to think that romance should play a significant part of a girl's growing up, but I personally consider the show to fit better under "coming of age shoujo" than "romantic drama".

I honestly... don't get how you can possibly see it as that. The entire story revolves around the actions. Makino(you meant Makino right... not Makoto?) becomes a target. And Domyouji ends up falling for her and the story revolves around Domyouji justifying his dating her, without losing the respect and title of his peers. Makino's position of trying to change that. Realistically, if Domyouji didn't have a thing for her, she would have been screwed, and the ending probably would have ended with her being forced out of the school, killing herself, or living an incredibly miserable school life of being ignored, constant torment, and absolutely no peace of mind at all. She is a nobody, that tried to fight against a juggernaut, only the juggernaut fell in love with her. Frankly, EVERYTHING in the story was beyond her control. She was at the whim of the group. So if by coming of age you mean "if you're not liked by the popular kids, you're completely screwed no matter what you do, unless you luck out and one of them has a thing for you, and is willing to go for it despite what it will do to his image"(which I hope to god you don't really think that's what coming of age means to you)...

It's about an unlikely love story and the troubles and tribulations between two different people.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 07, 2007, 09:43:09 PMI honestly... don't get how you can possibly see it as that. The entire story revolves around the actions. Makino(you meant Makino right... not Makoto?) becomes a target.

Yes, I meant Makino.  It's been very many years since I saw the anime.  As I recall, Makino doesn't "become" a target.  She stands up for her friend.  It's her decision.

QuoteAnd Domyouji ends up falling for her and the story revolves around Domyouji justifying his dating her, without losing the respect and title of his peers.

I thought that was much, much later.  I seem to recall Makino having to make friends with some girls first and being shown how to dress and act polite and fit into the society instead of just being loud and obnoxious and acting like poor white trash (or the Japanese equivalent).

QuoteFrankly, EVERYTHING in the story was beyond her control.

She had total control over how and whether she stood up for her friend or not in the first place.  There are more "mature" ways of fighting back, and I just remember having the impression that she figures it out.  I think Domyouji grows up a lot over the course of the anime too.

QuoteIt's about an unlikely love story and the troubles and tribulations between two different people.

It's far more troubles and tribulations than love.  I don't think very much of it was about love and romance at all.  From what I remember, they hated each other, and then they suddenly found themselves in love and facing all these circumstances.  I just remember it being far more about the social circumstances than their relationship or their feelings.  I don't tend to think of soap operas as "romantic drama" -- they're more about the circumstances (ie troubles and tribulations), and I thought this was very much a "soap opera".

And you just state that it's been a long time since you've seen it. Not the same for me, as there has been multiple incarnations of it over the past years, and I have too many female friends that are way into it not to mention you seem to not get the whole circle and how the bullying/targeting etc. work. This just goes back to "bullying in Japan is NOT the same as in the states" and you seem to assume it is.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 09:08:59 AMyou seem to not get the whole circle and how the bullying/targeting etc. work. This just goes back to "bullying in Japan is NOT the same as in the states" and you seem to assume it is.

I don't see how that follows.  You seem to be supporting my position that it's not that much of a romantic drama.  I was partly saying that Hana Yori Dango far more about the circumstances (such as the bullying) than the romance.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 09:08:59 AMThis just goes back to "bullying in Japan is NOT the same as in the states" and you seem to assume it is.

It just occurred to me that you might be the one assuming American definitions in this case.  By "mature ways of fighting back", I didn't mean the immature boorish American boy ways of "fighting back".  I meant rising above and playing their game better than they can and setting a good example until you shame some of them into acknowledging your worth, and then using the help of the people who acknowledge you to help turn the tide.  Makino starts off by using immature American boy ways of fighting back, like shouting, calling people names, throwing things, and being confrontational, and I think Makino "grows up" by learning how to work within the rules of the society she finds herself in.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 05:19:07 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 09:08:59 AMyou seem to not get the whole circle and how the bullying/targeting etc. work. This just goes back to "bullying in Japan is NOT the same as in the states" and you seem to assume it is.

I don't see how that follows.  You seem to be supporting my position that it's not that much of a romantic drama.  I was partly saying that Hana Yori Dango far more about the circumstances (such as the bullying) than the romance.

Not at all, because you are seeing it as growing to deal with these things, but her position didn't follow that path at all. You don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying. Fighting back makes things worse. Standing up to bullies... puts you in a horrible horrible position.

Besides... the whole bullying, and issues concerning that stopped about half-way through, and became about the two getting together.

Makino didn't change in the series at all... ... ...

Beginning to end she was the same person. Others changed in the story, but not her. Domoyoji changed because of Makino, because he opened up and saw more through his love with her. The main focus of the story was her relationship with Domoyoji, everything was a setup for them to get closer(and further apart). Every situation she went to was for her to get closer to him, even if "closer" wasn't necessarilly a good thing at times.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 07:38:07 PMYou don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying.

His and Her Circumstances, Yukino vs. Maho and Tsubasa.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 08:34:25 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 07:38:07 PMYou don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying.

His and Her Circumstances, Yukino vs. Maho and Tsubasa.

An incredibly unrealistic cartoon involving "Perfect people" and charms that don't really exist in the real world. Perfect acting, and even then, the bullying in the series wasn't really pushed to a real level, and only used as a gateway for them to all become friends.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 08:39:20 PM

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 08:34:25 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 07:38:07 PMYou don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying.

His and Her Circumstances, Yukino vs. Maho and Tsubasa.

An incredibly unrealistic cartoon involving "Perfect people" and charms that don't really exist in the real world. Perfect acting, and even then, the bullying in the series wasn't really pushed to a real level, and only used as a gateway for them to all become friends.

And the wealth in Hana Yori Dango is realistic?  They're such brats only because they're unrealistically rich.  Acting like Yukino can be done.  My boyfriend, my mom, and both my grandparents on my mom's side all do it very frighteningly well.  (My dad and I are much more like Arima, only without money and without the problems that Arima had from the manga.)  Most of the real people I went to college with were more "perfect" than the manga Yukino and Arima in that we didn't end up as teenaged parents.  I thought His and Her Circumstances (the anime, not the manga) was actually very realistic.  Such "charms" do exist in the real world, and I think some understanding of how they work is an essential survival skill.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 08:34:25 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 07:38:07 PMYou don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying.

His and Her Circumstances, Yukino vs. Maho and Tsubasa.

Okay... At first, it seemed pointless to discuss whether or not HYD is a romantic drama, but this comment really bugged me. I understand that the concept of "Japanese bullying" may be foreign to you, but are you SERIOUSLY basing real-life bullying with KareKano? Not only is it an ANIME, but it wasn't meant to be realistic. If you're comparing actual life to unrealistic anime (Especially like KareKano), I highly advise you to take a step outside of your door. =/

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 09:07:53 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 08:39:20 PM

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 08:34:25 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 07:38:07 PMYou don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying.

His and Her Circumstances, Yukino vs. Maho and Tsubasa.

An incredibly unrealistic cartoon involving "Perfect people" and charms that don't really exist in the real world. Perfect acting, and even then, the bullying in the series wasn't really pushed to a real level, and only used as a gateway for them to all become friends.

And the wealth in Hana Yori Dango is realistic?  They're such brats only because they're unrealistically rich.  Acting like Yukino can be done.  My boyfriend, my mom, and both my grandparents on my mom's side all do it very frighteningly well.  (My dad and I are much more like Arima, only without money and without the problems that Arima had from the manga.)  Most of the real people I went to college with were more "perfect" than the manga Yukino and Arima in that we didn't end up as teenaged parents.  I thought His and Her Circumstances (the anime, not the manga) was actually very realistic.  Such "charms" do exist in the real world, and I think some understanding of how they work is an essential survival skill.

So, you're comparing the... wealth in HYD to real life, rather than the plot/emotions/reactions/actions? Neither anime series is realistic enough to properly function in the real world, but given the circumstances, HYD is WAY more realistic than KareKano. As for said "charms" existing in the real world... they exist with deeper motives, planning, and observation if one can pull it off, but not purely through perfection and timing. If you truly believe they're as simple as they are in anime (KareKano), then you're thinking of a REALLY shallow world.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 09:07:53 PM
And the wealth in Hana Yori Dango is realistic?  They're such brats only because they're unrealistically rich.  Acting like Yukino can be done.  My boyfriend, my mom, and both my grandparents on my mom's side all do it very frighteningly well.  (My dad and I are much more like Arima, only without money and without the problems that Arima had from the manga.)  Most of the real people I went to college with were more "perfect" than the manga Yukino and Arima in that we didn't end up as teenaged parents.  I thought His and Her Circumstances (the anime, not the manga) was actually very realistic.  Such "charms" do exist in the real world, and I think some understanding of how they work is an essential survival skill.

Not that I said Hana Yori Dango is realistic, but...

You seem to not know any rich kids. Their attitudes, and how they're praised, seen etc. isn't... that unusual.

KareKano is super unrealistic in everything it does. Having basic understanding of peoples, and acting exist, but not to the extent it's done. My main point was about how the bullying in Hana Yori Dango was decently realistic, and that it wasn't realistic in KareKano.

I didn't think I'd have to explain it though.

KareKano's bullying of Yukino ended with nothing. Tsubasa just decided to start liking Yukino, and the class decided to just jump ship for no reason. Well here's the thing. Yukino is godly intelligent, manipulative, and was extremely popular. She would never had been a target to begin with, you'd be stupid to try and do so. Putting on masks is easy, but to that extent is inhuman. A perfect act, where your entire life plays the part. You have to accept and live your life as a lie, which, despite your claims, I know isn't true with you, nor your father. You're claiming, that you and your father are super prodigies,  capable of learning and mastering anything in a few months of trying. Capable of closing off half of your emotion completely, and not letting it affect how you act in the rest of the world. Yeah, I don't buy it.

I know plenty of 4.0 college grads, at all kinds of different colleges. You know what it took though? A whole crapload of studying, and a lot of commitment and effort. Not joining a bunch of different sports/clubs/student council, while having a girlfriend, and still getting perfect scores, winning sports tournaments, and having all kinds of social and mental issues that disappeared in public.

Your thinking KareKano is realistic... just reflects how you think HanaYoriDango is not a romance based drama, and how you think you and your father are more capable and what not than Arima was. You're dillusional.

KareKano is extremely unrealistic, and wasn't meant to be realistic. Hana Yori Dango isn't meant to be realistic either(overall). That's the charm of the series, that they're extremely unrealistic reflections of life.

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 10, 2007, 09:26:48 PM

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 10, 2007, 08:34:25 PM

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 07:38:07 PMYou don't seem to understand that there's really no way to actually combat Japanese bullying.

His and Her Circumstances, Yukino vs. Maho and Tsubasa.

Okay... At first, it seemed pointless to discuss whether or not HYD is a romantic drama, but this comment really bugged me. I understand that the concept of "Japanese bullying" may be foreign to you, but are you SERIOUSLY basing real-life bullying with KareKano? Not only is it an ANIME, but it wasn't meant to be realistic.

I'm saying that's a method of "fighting back".  Yes, it's simplified, but I didn't think it took that much imagination to stretch the concept into something that would work in real life: that one way to "fight back" is to convince people to like you or respect you.

QuoteIf you're comparing actual life to unrealistic anime (Especially like KareKano), I highly advise you to take a step outside of your door. =/

If Hana Yori Dango was being held as a "realistic" example of bullying, then Kare Kano is just as "realistic".

QuoteSo, you're comparing the... wealth in HYD to real life, rather than the plot/emotions/reactions/actions? Neither anime series is realistic enough to properly function in the real world, but given the circumstances, HYD is WAY more realistic than KareKano.

I personally find Yukino's and Arima's emotions in the anime version of Kare Kano to be far more realistic than anything any of the Hana Yori Dango kids experience.  Anno interviewed real people as the basis for his interpretation of Kare Kano, and I got the impression that he did go through some of that too.  Tsuda didn't understand her characters, and she didn't mean the Kare Kano manga to be realistic, but Anno did.  The anime was brilliant, and if you combine my high school and college experiences with my boyfriend's, you get something very similar to Kare Kano.

QuoteAs for said "charms" existing in the real world... they exist with deeper motives, planning, and observation if one can pull it off, but not purely through perfection and timing. If you truly believe they're as simple as they are in anime (KareKano), then you're thinking of a REALLY shallow world.

True, the portrayal of Yukino's "I want people to praise me" is very simplified, but when dissecting all those "deeper  motives" of people who do such things, if they're truly and completely honest with themselves, from a certain point of view, with an objective enough perspective, those "deeper motives" mostly boil down to that.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 10, 2007, 09:37:05 PMKareKano's bullying of Yukino ended with nothing. Tsubasa just decided to start liking Yukino, and the class decided to just jump ship for no reason.

It's not "for not reason" at all.  Yukino's behavior had everything to do with why Tsubasa started liking her and why the class decided to jump ship.  The way girls "fight back" is to convince people to like us.

QuoteYukino is godly intelligent, manipulative, and was extremely popular. She would never had been a target to begin with

Humans are very whimsical, and when people are banking on popularity, they have to realize that.  Yukino became a target because her standing slipped.  She stopped getting the scores that marked her as "godly intelligent", and she exposed herself as manipulative.  Manipulative people just aren't popular if people know they're being manipulated, and there's bound to be a backlash.

QuoteI know plenty of 4.0 college grads, at all kinds of different colleges. You know what it took though? A whole crapload of studying, and a lot of commitment and effort. Not joining a bunch of different sports/clubs/student council, while having a girlfriend, and still getting perfect scores, winning sports tournaments, and having all kinds of social and mental issues that disappeared in public.

Except that Kare Kano takes place in high school.  There were a half dozen of us during high school that did exactly that.  By the time I graduated from high school, I had trivially aced 14 AP classes, won several district-wide math and chess competitions (I was the math team captain), placed third in the district in varsity tennis (first for my own school), candystriped at a hospital on weekends, won several piano competitions, got hazed into the service/sororiety club (and decorated floats for the Rose Parade), was student body treasurer, tutored friends in a variety of classes, and played violin in the orchestra.  I also sort of had a boyfriend: I didn't count him as a boyfriend (and I certainly didn't have sex with him), but he puppy-dogged after me, came over to my house, studied with me, met my parents, took me to the prom, etc.  And there were at least three males and another female that had more impressive resumes than I did by the end of high school.

I don't think Yukino had any mental or social issues beyond what's normal for any teenager.  During the anime, Arima didn't have any particularly odd mental or social issues either.  It's only in the manga that Arima was a psychological mess.

Quotehow you think you and your father are more capable and what not than Arima was.

It's not just me and my father.  A lot of people are easily better than Arima.  Our student body president and class valedictorian got full scholarships to both MIT and Harvard based on merit alone.  (He chose Harvard.)  He was #1 in the district in tennis, a National Merit Scholar, and first violin in orchestra.  He also did a bunch of service projects and tutored everybody that asked.  He was very popular, and he went through three girlfriends during high school (that I know of).  His dad is also a doctor, and his mom is a lawyer, so his parents are quite respectable and well-off.  Other than the angsty manga flaws, what does Arima have that he didn't have?

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 11, 2007, 01:04:51 AM
If Hana Yori Dango was being held as a "realistic" example of bullying, then Kare Kano is just as "realistic".

No it isn't. You've proven you don't know jack about Japanese bullying already, and have said you didn't. Not to mention I've already explained out why Yukino would have never been a target in the first place. It was a plot device only for them to become friends, with a strong bond.

QuoteI personally find Yukino's and Arima's emotions in the anime version of Kare Kano to be far more realistic than anything any of the Hana Yori Dango kids experience.  Anno interviewed real people as the basis for his interpretation of Kare Kano, and I got the impression that he did go through some of that too.  Tsuda didn't understand her characters, and she didn't mean the Kare Kano manga to be realistic, but Anno did.  The anime was brilliant, and if you combine my high school and college experiences with my boyfriend's, you get something very similar to Kare Kano.

And what you personally find, doesn't equate to squat. Tsuda... understood her characters perfectly, as they acted and performed exactly what she wanted to show. Your life, was full of unrealistic drama, with rock stars, school beauties, angsty over dramatic kids, that never showed their problems to anyone(though you some how found out despite their perfect act), award winning on a national level writer friends, incestual relationships, etc.? Kare Kano's characters from cartoon to comic, didn't change very much at all. The writing and the condensing yes... but the characters themselves didn't change.

You get basic ideas in real life that can refelct what happens in KareKano, but what happens in KareKano is so extremely unrealistic that it becomes a parody of real life, not a show of real life. The characters were made in such extremes. Basic themes and ideas can reflect real life, the actual situations and characters, could not. It was not realistic, and you are seriously grasping on straws by claiming that it is.

QuoteHumans are very whimsical, and when people are banking on popularity, they have to realize that.  Yukino became a target because her standing slipped.  She stopped getting the scores that marked her as "godly intelligent", and she exposed herself as manipulative.  Manipulative people just aren't popular if people know they're being manipulated, and there's bound to be a backlash.

Oh... you don't think that students know they aren't being manipulated in this way? You don't think any of the students go "Hey, our 'leader' is basically controlling me and that I'm just a total tool that is following along". Sorry to break this to you, but a lot of the time, they know, and follow anyways. Atleast Hana Yori Dango showed this to an extent. People telling her not to fight back, people looking at her and then turning their faces with an obvious "I know it's wrong but I can't do anything about it" look. Her standing slip? She was still a top student though, just not #2. Hell, this isn't even true in the US. She was never exposed of to be totally manipulative, just not exactly what she was thought to be. Instead of being perfect, people saw she was just, really amazing. She didn't change. She still did the things she was doing before... the only thing changed in the picture was Arima. That was the keypoint that was used as their revolt, her being with Arima.

Which in itself is totally unrealistic. The basis was it, wasn't to show bullying or how it worked, or to be realistic in any way shape or form. It was a plot device for them to become friends.

QuoteExcept that Kare Kano takes place in high school.  There were a half dozen of us during high school that did exactly that.  By the time I graduated from high school, I had trivially aced 14 AP classes, won several district-wide math and chess competitions (I was the math team captain), placed third in the district in varsity tennis (first for my own school), candystriped at a hospital on weekends, won several piano competitions, got hazed into the service/sororiety club (and decorated floats for the Rose Parade), was student body treasurer, tutored friends in a variety of classes, and played violin in the orchestra.  I also sort of had a boyfriend: I didn't count him as a boyfriend (and I certainly didn't have sex with him), but he puppy-dogged after me, came over to my house, studied with me, met my parents, took me to the prom, etc.  And there were at least three males and another female that had more impressive resumes than I did by the end of high school.

I don't think Yukino had any mental or social issues beyond what's normal for any teenager.  During the anime, Arima didn't have any particularly odd mental or social issues either.  It's only in the manga that Arima was a psychological mess.

Uh... ... ... Arima didn't have any mental or social issues? ... ... ...Now I know you don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, now, are you going to say that US schools and JP high schools are exactly the same? Besides curriculum level(US public school ranks pretty low in terms of difficulty), time span of classes, days per week, amount of work assigned, club hours and dedication, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Are you going to tell me, you put all of these into consideration when you decided to compare yourself with Japanese High School students who are in sports clubs etc? Not to mention that both Arima and Yukino admitted they weren't naturally smart, and they only got to that point through hours upon hours of studying? Though, you seem to do a decent job proving you're "smart" it goes to show you, "smart" doesn't equate to intelligence, and doesn't reflect your social analytical skills.

QuoteIt's not just me and my father.  A lot of people are easily better than Arima.  Our student body president and class valedictorian got full scholarships to both MIT and Harvard based on merit alone.  (He chose Harvard.)  He was #1 in the district in tennis, a National Merit Scholar, and first violin in orchestra.  He also did a bunch of service projects and tutored everybody that asked.  He was very popular, and he went through three girlfriends during high school (that I know of).  His dad is also a doctor, and his mom is a lawyer, so his parents are quite respectable and well-off.  Other than the angsty manga flaws, what does Arima have that he didn't have?

... You realize that the angsty problems... is what made Arima, Arima. They existed in the comic, otherwise there would have been no conflict between him and Yukino once they both started going out(which there was). His issues was why he was a main character.

You seem to be completely missing huge chunks of what you read and analyze, and decide to fill it in with whatever you want... to reflect your own life. Citing comparison of comic to real world, only works... if you understand what is happening in the comic and its real world comparison. When you compare things but take out major factors, or compare things to unrealistic examples, it doesn't work.

Yukino and Arima are impossible characters in that they can put on a perfect mask, despite their real lives and problems outside of the social setting. I know people that are good at this, but it's impossible to be perfect. Arima was barely holding his own mentallity together, and lived only for his foster parents, and never showed a sign of weakness or pain, ever. Afterwards he was able to still be a top student while spending all his free time with his friends(which would only be like 2 hours a night at best maybe 5 or 6 on saturday, and Sunday). Yukino is the same. The character with the perfect mask. After her change, nothing really changed at all with her school life, her real life change was that, she had friends instead of spending her life studying. Yet she was still at the top despite her barely studying anymore, spending her time with her new friends and Arima etc.

Hana Yori Dango was unrealistic in that she ends up with the super rich popular boy being the outcast girl that was the target of the school. There's no doubt about that Hana Yori Dango was unrealistic. It portrayed some real life things better, but it wasn't realistic. But KareKano was just as unrealistic, if not more unrealistic. Most JP comics and cartoons are.

It's hard for me to even think of any decent series that are realistic to be honest. Genshiken is all I can think of off the top of my head.

Alright, so can anyone tell me the most realistic romance series there is?

Quote from: JohnnyAR on December 12, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
Alright, so can anyone tell me the most realistic romance series there is?

None... because if it was realistic, it'd be boring and no one would want to watch it.

I's did extremely well in portraying what characters feel in relationships, and how thinking certain ways, and not having the balls to talk about it causes problems within them.

KareKano did decently well in displaying the individual sides of a relationship(in that a relationship is about 2 people with 2 different lives, that share a lot of that with each other, not two people with one life).

Maison Ikkoku did extremely well in showing the growing of two people and showing how the past affects love, and how falling in love doesn't betray your love in the past.

Kimagure Orange road did extremely well in showing the complexity of the individuals in a relationship, through different trials and tribulations.

Lots of different series portray different things well. None of them are realistic, because without the crazy unrealistic plot push, things would be boring to watch.

Do you know of one that teaches that opposites attract?

All of them?

The majority of series are about an unlikely relationship between two people that shouldn't get together. That's why 99% of the time, the lead is a loser or anti-social, or some kind of retarded.

Er, off-topic... but pertaining the whole bullying bit. Some of Azreal's blogs on GaijinSmash on bullying are worth reading.

http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bullying.phtml

http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bullying_another_look.phtml

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 10:05:46 AM
Er, off-topic... but pertaining the whole bullying bit. Some of Azreal's blogs on GaijinSmash on bullying are worth reading.
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bullying.phtml
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bullying_another_look.phtml

That was fascinating.  Thanks for the links.

Still, he was referring to "Ghetto School".  I was at a US "Ghetto School" for a year, and kids were doing rather annoying things, and teachers were supporting them.  For example, a boy threw gum in my hair (I have very long hair), and when I complained to the teacher, she laughed and told me that being a tattle-tale is bad.  My brother was part of a candy-selling fund raiser, and some gang held him at gun point and took his money.  Nobody did anything about that either: what can you do about someone with a gun?  It's just life in the ghettos, and that's why it's so important to be able to get out of it.  At first, my mom sent us to private school, but it was about an hour and a half each way to get to the private school.  Then, my mom borrowed someone else's address and phone number to send us to a different public school that's just outside the area, and we had to remember and write down this other address and phone number every time the school gave us a form to fill out.

With all that bullying and automated grade advancement no matter how poorly kids did, did Pyron seriously try to say that the Japanese education system is better than ours...?  Our elite can probably easily toast their elite any day, and it's probably why so many people work so hard to come to America for college.  It's just that we have a lot of ghettos that drive down our statistics.  In order to be good, we have to leave the bad behind, and we can't let all the dead weight drag us down.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 13, 2007, 01:39:16 PM

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 10:05:46 AM
Er, off-topic... but pertaining the whole bullying bit. Some of Azreal's blogs on GaijinSmash on bullying are worth reading.
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bullying.phtml
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bullying_another_look.phtml

That was fascinating.  Thanks for the links.

Still, he was referring to "Ghetto School".  I was at a US "Ghetto School" for a year, and kids were doing rather annoying things, and teachers were supporting them.  For example, a boy threw gum in my hair (I have very long hair), and when I complained to the teacher, she laughed and told me that being a tattle-tale is bad.  My brother was part of a candy-selling fund raiser, and some gang held him at gun point and took his money.  Nobody did anything about that either: what can you do about someone with a gun?  It's just life in the ghettos, and that's why it's so important to be able to get out of it.  At first, my mom sent us to private school, but it was about an hour and a half each way to get to the private school.  Then, my mom borrowed someone else's address and phone number to send us to a different public school that's just outside the area, and we had to remember and write down this other address and phone number every time the school gave us a form to fill out.

With all that bullying and automated grade advancement no matter how poorly kids did, did Pyron seriously try to say that the Japanese education system is better than ours...?  Our elite can probably easily toast their elite any day, and it's probably why so many people work so hard to come to America for college.  It's just that we have a lot of ghettos that drive down our statistics.  In order to be good, we have to leave the bad behind, and we can't let all the dead weight drag us down.

By "Ghetto School", it's sort of an inside reference exclusive to his blog, not really referring to actual ghetto schools. In his entries, he talked about bullying in school, how it affects him, and how he perceives it. He also talks about the conditions that allow these sorts of things to happen, and why the school system can't do anything about it. Thing is, this sort of mentality applies to all schools and the entire country as a whole. It isn't just students that face these sorts of problems. High suicide rates in Japan aren't limited to just students-- even with adults the same type of bullying carries on.

You're talking about asshat teachers that support poor behavior, because to them, it's kids being kids and they're too lazy to do anything about it. What happens in Japan, though... they DON'T support it, but they can't do anything about it. The student, in Japan, has a right to their education. The teacher can't punish them, otherwise, it'd be violating that right. Teachers have no say in it, and as mentioned in the entry, when teachers did intervene, it'd either make things worse or cause a riot. People are afraid to do anything, because it causes trouble, because they're unable to do anything, anyway.

And actually, in comparison to EVERY major country, American curriculums are significantly easier, whereas Japanese education is very strict (in terms of academics). I'm not trying to trying to say "Japan is way better bonzai!!!", rather, it's not a lie to say that Japanese schools are more difficult than typical American schools.

Generally, in Asia and especially Japan and China, academics are very strict. You have to work from middle school (HARDER than you would in an American HIGH SCHOOL) to get into a decent high school. Even after that, you have to work to get into a decent college. In America, you typically don't have to work as hard or worry nearly as much. As for people working to get into American colleges and universities, that's because of the country. America is the leading country of the world, English is the international business language, and there's more of a variety of schools to attend based on personal preferences. As for Japan, it's a relatively small country with little variety in schools and universities to attend, and not everyone wants to learn Japanese to go to school as it isn't as necessary to learn as English is. Also, if you didn't know... if you are a Japanese citizen, it is actually more difficult to be accepted by a Japanese university by law.

Any other explanation to back up this point was already mentioned before. You seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

EDIT: Oh and uh, grats on the 100 post mark. :Q

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 13, 2007, 01:39:16 PM
That was fascinating.  Thanks for the links.

Still, he was referring to "Ghetto School".  I was at a US "Ghetto School" for a year, and kids were doing rather annoying things, and teachers were supporting them.  For example, a boy threw gum in my hair (I have very long hair), and when I complained to the teacher, she laughed and told me that being a tattle-tale is bad.  My brother was part of a candy-selling fund raiser, and some gang held him at gun point and took his money.  Nobody did anything about that either: what can you do about someone with a gun?  It's just life in the ghettos, and that's why it's so important to be able to get out of it.  At first, my mom sent us to private school, but it was about an hour and a half each way to get to the private school.  Then, my mom borrowed someone else's address and phone number to send us to a different public school that's just outside the area, and we had to remember and write down this other address and phone number every time the school gave us a form to fill out.

Le sigh. First you misinterperet what was meant by "ghetto school" in Japan. Secondly, you missed the point in the article as well as in comparison to what I said. Random targets, compared to actual bullying. As well as, state of the overall, compared to actions and capabilities of the faculty in response.

QuoteWith all that bullying and automated grade advancement no matter how poorly kids did, did Pyron seriously try to say that the Japanese education system is better than ours...?  Our elite can probably easily toast their elite any day, and it's probably why so many people work so hard to come to America for college.  It's just that we have a lot of ghettos that drive down our statistics.  In order to be good, we have to leave the bad behind, and we can't let all the dead weight drag us down.

And le sigh, again. At this point I will state, you could be a graduate at Harvard, with a 4.0 and it wouldn't matter, because your views are so narrow that you don't understand a thing about a "different culture". The Japanese education system, IS better than the US'. The school system and discipline, power, etc are not. The education in most of Europe, and the more civilized areas in Asia are better than the US', again though, I am only speaking of the education system itself, not discipline, the state of the schools, etc. etc. etc.

I love how quickly you jumped to state this though...

QuoteOur elite can probably easily toast their elite any day, and it's probably why so many people work so hard to come to America for college.

And isn't it the same for the other? How many Americans want to study in other countries? Because you know, the fact that it is a chance to study in a foreign land,and to experience foreign culture, has absolutely nothing to do with it right? It's merely because schools in other countries are SO HORRIBLE compared to the US, that everyone wants to study in the US.

You also missed the point of how the articles were linked to apply to that "KareKano is unrealistic... and Hana Yori Dango is a little more realistic in terms of bullying".

There's a lot of issues that you aren't even looking at, all you do is point out a few things, misinterperet them, and then act like your position is right. The elite of America may or may not be able to trump the elite of Japan... so what. Look at the majority of Japanese students compared to the US. There are so many cultural issues involved, how they're raised and how they're told they're supposed to be in Japan compared to the US. In the US, a lot of parents teach their kids "it's okay to not be smart, just do what you like, be whoever you want to be." In Japan it's totally different. You're basically raised and taught to be a drone, and that you as an individual comes second to the greater good. Being different in Japan is bad, and usually how you become a target of bullying. By being different, you're stating that you are better than the others, and they will not think twice to remind you that you are no one, and that you are easilly erased. Hence, the story of students getting completely ignored by their classmates for years. It's what drives some of them to suicide. Or if they're different, they'll get "treated" differently.

Japan's school system has a lot of problems, and a lot of the times the parents are to blame. This doesn't change how messed up the US school system is as well. The majority of Japanese students do well, and it reflects, because they are pushed to do well, and the curriculum matches. In the US, the curriculum is far lower than most other countries, and it's hard not to fail if you put in minimal effort.

This is why I hate talking about other cultures(specifically Japan) with other people. Most of them assume they know about the other culture and make bad assumptions, or they instantly compare it to the US(and badly at that). I'm far from an expert in Japan, but I try to understand it from their side and why things happen the way they do and don't jump to conclusions on a few facts, but try to put into consideration all the contributing factors.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 11, 2007, 12:56:18 PMThe writing and the condensing yes... but the characters themselves didn't change.

They did in a way.  The anime only covered the first eight? volumes of a 21 volume manga series.  What was revealed about Arima later very drastically revised someone who's realistic and understandable into a total soap opera.  It's very realistic at that age to not know what you want, so you end up just doing what you think is expected.  And, in trying so hard to do what's expected, it's realistic to not know who you are to the point that nobody else can know who you are either, and thus, while everybody knows your name, you have no friends.  It's realistic to be afraid of who you might really be because you only know that the person isn't the same person as this image that you've created.

QuoteBasic themes and ideas can reflect real life

Isn't that what "realistic" is?

Quote

QuoteHumans are very whimsical, and when people are banking on popularity, they have to realize that.  Yukino became a target because her standing slipped.  She stopped getting the scores that marked her as "godly intelligent", and she exposed herself as manipulative.  Manipulative people just aren't popular if people know they're being manipulated, and there's bound to be a backlash.

Oh... you don't think that students know they aren't being manipulated in this way?

Depends on what you mean.  For "popularity", as long as you're willing to keep up enough pieces of the illusion, many people are more than happy to meet you halfway and not pry too hard.  People like the ideals that get presented too, and they want to believe such things are real.  It doesn't take a "perfect" mask to maintain the illusion.

QuoteYou don't think any of the students go "Hey, our 'leader' is basically controlling me and that I'm just a total tool that is following along".

That's completely different.  There's a huge difference between being a "leader" and being "popular".

QuotePeople telling her not to fight back

And Yukino already knew this without being told.  She told Arima that he can't do anything about it.

QuoteDuring the anime, Arima didn't have any particularly odd mental or social issues either.  It's only in the manga that Arima was a psychological mess.

Uh... ... ... Arima didn't have any mental or social issues?[/quote]I didn't say he didn't have any issues at all -- I said that he didn't have any particularly odd ones in the anime.  He did have issues, but the ones he had during the anime were normal.

QuoteYes, now, are you going to say that US schools and JP high schools are exactly the same?

Not at all.  Still, Yukino and Arima didn't go to a top tier school.  And, if, like in the bullying article, they can't be held back and they can pass without doing any of the work (if bullies are such a real influence), how good can their classes be?

QuoteBesides curriculum level(US public school ranks pretty low in terms of difficulty), time span of classes, days per week, amount of work assigned, club hours and dedication, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Are you going to tell me, you put all of these into consideration when you decided to compare yourself with Japanese High School students who are in sports clubs etc?

Which is why I mentioned stuff like the hospital volunteering and the outside piano competitions.  If, every week, I spent the piano practice, tennis practice, hospital volunteering, part time job, chess meets, AP review sessions, etc. etc. etc. and the commute time in between all of them on what the Japanese kids have to do, I think it'd be rather equivalent.  In between all that, I still watched TV for an hour a day and had time to read a fantasy novel (the standard ~300 page types) per week.

QuoteNot to mention that both Arima and Yukino admitted they weren't naturally smart, and they only got to that point through hours upon hours of studying?

Yukino admitted that she wasn't naturally smart.  Arima might've agreed just to make small talk, but in the anime, it was clear that he was naturally smart.

Quote

QuoteOther than the angsty manga flaws, what does Arima have that he didn't have?

... You realize that the angsty problems... is what made Arima, Arima.

His anime angst was realistic, and lots of people have similar problems.  The full-blown form of his manga angst was total soap opera.

QuoteCiting comparison of comic to real world, only works... if you understand what is happening in the comic and its real world comparison.

What makes a work of art a masterpiece is that it's universally applicable.  If it's only understandable in the context of a specific "real world comparison", like "Japanese bullying", then it's generally considered to just not be very good.  The "real world" is different things to different people.  Every school has some form of an Arima and Yukino: a male and female valedictorian or a homecoming king and homecoming queen.  I didn't know internationally famous rock stars, but I knew lots of musicians, and I did travel a few hundred miles to enter piano competitions.  I don't know any published authors with full novels out, but I knew a few that were entering and winning national short story contests.  (One of them does have two published books out now.)

QuoteWhen you compare things but take out major factors, or compare things to unrealistic examples, it doesn't work.

The major factors are the human emotions, and those are very realistic.

QuoteYukino and Arima are impossible characters in that they can put on a perfect mask, despite their real lives and problems outside of the social setting.

The mask doesn't have to be very perfect.  When you get enough pieces in place, a lot of people are willing to fill in the blanks.  Only my prom date ever asked what I did when I got home; everybody else was happy to assume that I was always studying and that I never watched TV without ever asking me.  Even if I were to tell them, they probably wouldn't believe me anyways.  I never once said, "Sorry, I can't go", but whenever I was around when people were inviting others out to parties, they would just say, "I'd invite you to my party too, but I'm sure you're too busy."

QuoteArima was barely holding his own mentality together, and lived only for his foster parents, and never showed a sign of weakness or pain, ever.

In the anime, Arima was fine until Yukino came along.  He was too busy trying to live up to this idea he had of what he had to do, and he didn't have time to contemplate his identity, his real personality, his weaknesses, his pain, or what he might want.  When Yukino showed up, for the first time, he suddenly wanted something for himself that wasn't in line with what he thought he's supposed to want, and that's when his issues started.

QuoteAfter her change, nothing really changed at all with her school life, her real life change was that, she had friends instead of spending her life studying.

Being able to have friends is a huge change.

QuoteYet she was still at the top despite her barely studying anymore, spending her time with her new friends and Arima etc.

A good deal of the time she spent with her friends and with Arima was spent studying.  And she was no longer a top student.  She dropped way below the top five.

QuoteIt's hard for me to even think of any decent series that are realistic to be honest. Genshiken is all I can think of off the top of my head.

You live in a very different reality then.  Genshiken is very much a parody and was always intended to be a parody.  ;)

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 02:14:39 PMYou seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

More later, but I have errands to run.  I'd like to introduce two ideas:
1) The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations.
2) Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 13, 2007, 02:44:20 PM

Quote
Yes, now, are you going to say that US schools and JP high schools are exactly the same?

Not at all.  Still, Yukino and Arima didn't go to a top tier school.  And, if, like in the bullying article, they can't be held back and they can pass without doing any of the work (if bullies are such a real influence), how good can their classes be?

Okay. You totally ignored my previous post... but anyway, it's not just about PASSING school. You have to do well enough to advance into a decent school. I've already explained this in my previous post.

I stopped caring in high school and had extremely low grades, but I did well on tests. I never did any of my work... EVER. It caught the attention of the school, they discussed matters with me, I end up taking a few extra exams and I graduate 2 years early and am now in my 2nd year of college at age 17. You can't do that in Japan.

Quote

QuoteBesides curriculum level(US public school ranks pretty low in terms of difficulty), time span of classes, days per week, amount of work assigned, club hours and dedication, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Are you going to tell me, you put all of these into consideration when you decided to compare yourself with Japanese High School students who are in sports clubs etc?

Which is why I mentioned stuff like the hospital volunteering and the outside piano competitions.  If, every week, I spent the piano practice, tennis practice, hospital volunteering, part time job, chess meets, AP review sessions, etc. etc. etc. and the commute time in between all of them on what the Japanese kids have to do, I think it'd be rather equivalent.  In between all that, I still watched TV for an hour a day and had time to read a fantasy novel (the standard ~300 page types) per week.

Again, the American curriculum isn't very difficult in comparison to any major country's academic standards. American mentality is a lot more liberal, students have the time and freedom to do extra-curricular activities and hobbies without necessarily affecting their school work significantly because school isn't as strict. They don't expect as much from you, as a student-- it's as long as you get things done. In America, the system is pretty much... as long as you work hard, you'll pass with a good grade. It doesn't matter whether or not you're smart, because they just want to encourage you to try. In Japan/Asia, they don't necessarily praise you for trying, rather, they EXPECT you to do your work and they focus on how well your test-scores are based on your intelligence. Who you are, intellectually, is ranked by that number by your peers, your family, and your teachers. We don't have that sort of pressure, here.

Quote

QuoteIt's hard for me to even think of any decent series that are realistic to be honest. Genshiken is all I can think of off the top of my head.

You live in a very different reality then.  Genshiken is very much a parody and was always intended to be a parody.  ;)

Actually... Genshiken IS pretty much the most realistic series I can think of right now, too. (NHK ni Youkoso is pretty realistic, but it has its moments.) Your views on life are pretty limited. It's not bizarre or anything, but it seems that you have no trouble believing the fantasy-variations of how life is in a drama series... but you fail to understand that the characters in Genshiken behave in a way that real people behave. Perhaps not people YOU know, but it's not so far-fetched to understand that the characters in Genshiken are pretty realistic. It's a series about a club full of otaku and one normal girl, with realistic characters that behave, feel emotions, and react to things as an actual person would. (Except Kohsaka. Saki isn't completely unrealistic, rather, just unlikely. But if they were to exist, the way the other characters interact and react to them are realistic.) If the characters existed in the real world, they would blend right in just fine. They're not eccentric, they're animated manifestations of realistic characters with personalities within the boundaries of this planet. I'm not just referring to just the characters, though. I mean the image of Japan, though a parody, IS Japan in Genshiken as a whole-- the locations, the people, media, characters, are all J-a-p-a-n-e-s-e.

I don't really see how you misinterpret things so easily, though. You misinterpret anime series, their characters, plots, and meaning behind things... you SOMEHOW misread the blog entries I linked. As for the whole idea of bullying and academics in Japan, I understand that it's all foreign to you. That's also why you find Genshiken unrealistic... Your protesting pretty much leads to needing to repeat the same things over to you, somehow without you being able to understand anything.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 13, 2007, 03:13:45 PM

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 02:14:39 PMYou seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

More later, but I have errands to run.  I'd like to introduce two ideas:
1) The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations.
2) Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her.

Not to say these ideas aren't true, but you seem to firmly believe them to the extent that you have the idea that all humans are the same. Again, they're not-- at least in this scale.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 13, 2007, 02:44:20 PM
They did in a way.  The anime only covered the first eight? volumes of a 21 volume manga series.  What was revealed about Arima later very drastically revised someone who's realistic and understandable into a total soap opera.  It's very realistic at that age to not know what you want, so you end up just doing what you think is expected.  And, in trying so hard to do what's expected, it's realistic to not know who you are to the point that nobody else can know who you are either, and thus, while everybody knows your name, you have no friends.  It's realistic to be afraid of who you might really be because you only know that the person isn't the same person as this image that you've created.

Not that I cared to do it earlier since you made a lot of bad assumptions about Anno earlier. Anno got bored of KareKano after episode 5. That's why the quality of the series went to shit after that, why it only ran for that long, and seemed to abruptly stop with nothing happening, no kind of conclusion or anything close to it, and absolutely nothing happening(LOL YAOI). Those are themes that can be found in the series... however, that doesn't make it realistic.

QuoteIsn't that what "realistic" is?

WHAT? NO! Did you fail every English class you've ever had? Realistic means the events and occurances are very probable to happen in real life. Things that actually happen in real life, can be unrealistic because the occurance is very unprobable to happen. If I close my eyes at half court and randomly throw a basketball up into the air, how realistic is it, that it will land into the basket. Answer? Very unrealistic, even if there is a chance that it will happen. I could attempt it until it did happen, and the event will still be unrealistic. The events that occur in KareKano are extremely UNREALISTIC in that, the probability of the majority of situations and their outcomes would be extremely low based on natural human processes. The themes are comparable and applicable to real life, the events themselves are very unrealistic.

QuoteDepends on what you mean.  For "popularity", as long as you're willing to keep up enough pieces of the illusion, many people are more than happy to meet you halfway and not pry too hard.  People like the ideals that get presented too, and they want to believe such things are real.  It doesn't take a "perfect" mask to maintain the illusion.

LOL, Hi, you don't know much about Japan, so stop assuming your experiences are just like how Japanese people are. But you sorta prove a point of mine. It's impossible to maintain that perfect mask and illusion, Arima does in the cartoon and comic. YAY, DOESN'T THAT MEAN I'M RIGHT?!?!?!?

QuoteThat's completely different.  There's a huge difference between being a "leader" and being "popular".

Oh this opens up such a huge arguement that it would be it's own 20 page subject. I suggest you re-evaluate thinking this, not on the "literal" but on the practical usages.

QuoteAnd Yukino already knew this without being told.  She told Arima that he can't do anything about it.

Uh... those two statements don't match up. My statement was about Hana Yori Dango. Yukino DID fight back, and that's how she turned the classes mind around. She told Arima not to do anything because it was "her fight" and frankly, in normal standards, if this was the case, and Arima did do anything, he would become a target too... WAIT... isn't that what happened in Hana Yori Dango? OH YEAH IT DID!

QuoteI didn't say he didn't have any issues at all -- I said that he didn't have any particularly odd ones in the anime.  He did have issues, but the ones he had during the anime were normal.

You seriously didn't pay attention to Arima's character then.

QuoteNot at all.  Still, Yukino and Arima didn't go to a top tier school.  And, if, like in the bullying article, they can't be held back and they can pass without doing any of the work (if bullies are such a real influence), how good can their classes be?

But they did go to a good school as evidenced as Yukino's sister studying hard to get into that school. You can't be held back, but if you don't pass entrance exams,you can't get into that high school. Do you think schools are like in the US where you go to schools based on where you live? And that Jr. Highs, and High Schools don't have entrance exams that you have to pass to get enrolled into... just because the US isn't like that? Again... Japan is not the US... stop acting like it is.

QuoteWhich is why I mentioned stuff like the hospital volunteering and the outside piano competitions.  If, every week, I spent the piano practice, tennis practice, hospital volunteering, part time job, chess meets, AP review sessions, etc. etc. etc. and the commute time in between all of them on what the Japanese kids have to do, I think it'd be rather equivalent.  In between all that, I still watched TV for an hour a day and had time to read a fantasy novel (the standard ~300 page types) per week.

Let's say, a person is in 1 club. On average that person would get home at around 6 or 7 pm according to how close they lived to school. If they were going to a nice school far away from them, and had to take the train home, 7 could easilly be turned to 8 or so. After eating dinner, they'd have about 2 hours of "free time" a day on weekdays, which according to the cartoon and comic, was spent studying and only studying because both of them worked hard to be on the top and weren't naturally smart. Just to let you know in retrospect. I never studied and had I done homework, I would have gotten A's in all my AP classes as well. I spent all my time playing games, and literally never opened my text books outside of when required to in class. So you saying you got all A's in your classes without studying means nothing to me. The curriculum in the US is a joke. I aced almost every essay I wrote in AP english without reading a single book/short story/poem.

QuoteYukino admitted that she wasn't naturally smart.  Arima might've agreed just to make small talk, but in the anime, it was clear that he was naturally smart.

Now you're just making assumptions to save your arguement with no basis on it. He was naturally talented, but he proved he had to constantly study to keep up, otherwise his grades wouldn't have slipped.

QuoteHis anime angst was realistic, and lots of people have similar problems.  The full-blown form of his manga angst was total soap opera.

Only up to the part where they introduce his family. If you think the level of his psyche was realistic or common, you really don't have any grasp of the state of things. His conditioning was made extreme on purpose to show that even the seemingly most perfect people, are often times the most broken fragmented people. If you think that a lot of people don't care or live for themselves at all, and only live to be a mantle piece to make your adopted parents happy, and to make them think nothing is wrong... you are seriously nuts. He was void of emotion. Nothing he did was for himself, and all an act to appear like nothing was wrong. An act made because of how his relatives treated him when he was young, and to prevent his adopted parents from being talked down to.

Or are you completely ignoring all that?

QuoteWhat makes a work of art a masterpiece is that it's universally applicable.  If it's only understandable in the context of a specific "real world comparison", like "Japanese bullying", then it's generally considered to just not be very good.  The "real world" is different things to different people.  Every school has some form of an Arima and Yukino: a male and female valedictorian or a homecoming king and homecoming queen.  I didn't know internationally famous rock stars, but I knew lots of musicians, and I did travel a few hundred miles to enter piano competitions.  I don't know any published authors with full novels out, but I knew a few that were entering and winning national short story contests.  (One of them does have two published books out now.)

And you're still missing the point. Your defenition of a masterpiece is bull. Nothing is universally applicable. If I showed the Mona Lisa to a random African tribe do you think they'd stop and go "Wow this is quite a painting". Your average person has no clue why the Mona Lisa is a masterpiece at all. Most people, if presented with the real Mona Lisa wouldn't even think that it's the real painting seeing that it's slightly bigger than a post card. Do you think everyone understands and appreciates Bach or Chopin? Most people don't get a damned thing about their music at all. You contradict yourself greatly by stating all this universal application then state "The 'real world' is different things to different people.

You say every school has it's Arima and Yukino, and give off their great achievements. But you're missing out on the point of the comic because one of the most prominant themes in the series was their relationship and real selves behind those achievements. That out of all of the people they knew, Arima and Yukino were the most broken and fragmented characters. They didn't understand themselves at all nor each other until near the end of the series. Everything "perfect" about them was a lie. A charade of appearances, not who they really were at all. So are you stating, that ever valedictorian, every home coming queen and king, aren't who they are... but instead broken fragmented people and their achievements are lies? Arima and Yukino started to discover actions and merits, and worth through each other after realizing how fragmented everything was and it took them years to do so. But you seem to have missed all of that, and everything this story was about.

QuoteThe major factors are the human emotions, and those are very realistic.

That is the result, not the agent that creates the event. Why did those feelings come to light? Because of event A causing event B, which made character Y feel P. Comics are full of unrealistic events to portray those feelings, the feelings being real, doesn't make the event real.

QuoteThe mask doesn't have to be very perfect.  When you get enough pieces in place, a lot of people are willing to fill in the blanks.  Only my prom date ever asked what I did when I got home; everybody else was happy to assume that I was always studying and that I never watched TV without ever asking me.  Even if I were to tell them, they probably wouldn't believe me anyways.  I never once said, "Sorry, I can't go", but whenever I was around when people were inviting others out to parties, they would just say, "I'd invite you to my party too, but I'm sure you're too busy."

What you do at home is no longer the mask. Since no one can see you. But I like how you are still arguing the wrong thing. You SHOULD BE arguing that masks are only to make others feel at ease, and not for the personal gain of the person wearing them. But you aren't, and you're basically stating "Hey you don't have to lie perfectly, just well enough so that people believe you". Think about that...

QuoteIn the anime, Arima was fine until Yukino came along.  He was too busy trying to live up to this idea he had of what he had to do, and he didn't have time to contemplate his identity, his real personality, his weaknesses, his pain, or what he might want.  When Yukino showed up, for the first time, he suddenly wanted something for himself that wasn't in line with what he thought he's supposed to want, and that's when his issues started.

Wow... totally off. Arima has been broken ever since he was a child. But I already explained this.

QuoteBeing able to have friends is a huge change.

But her academic life didn't change at all which is what I was stating.

QuoteA good deal of the time she spent with her friends and with Arima was spent studying.  And she was no longer a top student.  She dropped way below the top five.

And that changed after it was brought to light. But think about time restraints etc. They didn't exist. They brought up the point that they were spending too much time not studying and being together, and all of a sudden they are studying and stuff. I would like to know... what time this was that they had to do this. Unless days started suddenly becoming 28 hours and what not. You don't have a lot of free time as a kid in Japan.

QuoteYou live in a very different reality then.  Genshiken is very much a parody and was always intended to be a parody.  ;)

Uhm... ... ... no it's not. It's a VERY realistic look into otaku culture with 2 exceptions. Saki and Kousaka. Saki and Kousaka are supposed to be the extreme ends and catalysts of a lot of realizations. Again, another series I knew would be misinterpereted when I heard it got turned into an cartoon.

James: Mike, Genshiken is getting turned into a cartoon.
Mikey: hahaha dude, I bet a bunch of Americans are going to watch it and laugh, and not realize that it's a reflection of actual otaku-dom... what a lot of them "claim" to be.
James: I just hope that idiots realize that this is the real fandom and don't think that it's funny for the wrong reason. I can watch it and laugh and realize that this is what happens in real life.
Mikey: Oh you know they will, they always do. Not like they care to actually learn about their fandom or the truths behind anything anyways. NEKO KAWAII BAKA HENTAI YAOI!
James: Shut up. I hope you die in hell.

That's a convo that me and my friend had about 4 years ago. And oh how true it is.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 13, 2007, 03:13:45 PM
More later, but I have errands to run.  I'd like to introduce two ideas:
1) The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations.
2) Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her.

Yes, and some humans are capable of listening to others that have more experiences and knowledge about subjects, you seem to not be one of them and act like your limited experience and knowledge is worldy accepted as the only truths.

Whoa geez, calm down here....I mean sure, stuff like realism is important in a drama, but lets not try to cause some drama here, shall we!?

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 03:28:38 PMit's not just about PASSING school. You have to do well enough to advance into a decent school.

If the Japanese determine school via test scores, it means that there are good schools and bad schools in Japan, just like there are good schools and bad schools here.  Not all US schools are alike, and that would seem to suggest that not all Japanese schools are alike.  There are private schools in the US that require an exam, and there are (or maybe "were" by now) programs even in public school that require exams.  The stratification problems are probably worse in Japan because the exams are so ubiquitous: all the delinquents and low achievers would end up segregated into the worst schools, while the good ones that do well on exams end up in a different reality, so to speak.  But that doesn't mean that the we don't have our equivalents.  "The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations."  It's like the Japanese saying that all Americans have to worry about guns.  Sure, many Americans carry guns, and most Americans do worry about guns, but there's a huge variation in how different Americans experience guns, and some Americans in some areas might worry about guns less than all Japanese.  A Japanese person going to Texas or Missouri could easily write (and be right) about how the whole office takes off and goes shooting and drinking for fun "in America" and still not be right about how many Californians spend their time.  According to the stories, back when Megumi Hayashibara came to California as a guest of an anime convention, she asked to the organizers to take her to a shooting range, expecting that all Americans would just know how to do that.  This idea that we Americans regularly use shooting ranges is realistic for some Americans and not for others.  "Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her."  "Realistic" varies a lot depending on what each person experiences.  When East Palo Alto was the murder capital of the world, how "realistic" would that have felt to the residents of Atherton and Los Altos?

Quoteyou SOMEHOW misread the blog entries I linked.

The idea that the blogger can refer to one school as "Ghetto School" and another school as "School of Peace" means that there are schools of different levels in Japan.  How is that wrong?  I didn't mean a "literal ghetto" as opposed to areas that just aren't as good as others.

It doesn't have to be a "literal ghetto" for kids to have access to guns.  It just takes the parents not paying attention, and that can happen anywhere.  The median household income in the city around Columbine is $73,000, and 45.5% had at least a college degree.  (In contrast, the city of Santa Clara -- not the best area in the world, but not too shabby, and certainly not a "literal ghetto" -- has a median household income of $69,466 and 42.4% college graduates.)  Columbine didn't happen in a "literal ghetto".  (That's partly why it made news.)

Also, some pretty bad bullying must've taken place in Columbine.  However, with access to guns, the bullies can only go so far before they get blown away.

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 02:14:39 PMYou seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

Yes and no.  Yes, they have a different culture.  But they still have to eat, sleep, and breathe.  They still have the impulse to smile (however slightly) when amused, and they still bleed when they cut themselves.  They still feel joy and pain.  They still have people they like better than others.  And they're still a huge population with a large range of traits.

QuoteAgain, they're not-- at least in this scale.

We might just be talking about different scales then.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 13, 2007, 03:38:09 PMIt's impossible to maintain that perfect mask and illusion, Arima does in the cartoon and comic.

Arima and Yukino wear very different levels of masks.  Yukino is in touch with and in control of her mask.  For Arima, however, his mask isn't the same type of mask because he fooled himself too.  From Arima's point of view, there was no mask and no illusion -- and thus nothing to maintain.  All he knew about himself was that he wanted to be this superman for the sake of his foster parents.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 13, 2007, 03:38:09 PMRealistic means the events and occurrences are very probable to happen in real life. Things that actually happen in real life, can be unrealistic because the occurrence is very improbable to happen.

OK, we're partly disagreeing because we have totally different definitions of "realistic" and "probable" then.  Actually, I think we've all being playing very loose with this word, "realistic", and we never defined what "realistic" meant.

If we agree that time machines are neither real nor realistic, then the past has a probability of 1: if it already happened, then it's 100% "probable to happen".  Reality has to have a bearing on what one considers is "realistic".  Otherwise, the word "realistic" becomes meaningless, and one's idea of "realistic" becomes "fantastic".  In my world, reality is fundamentally very necessarily "realistic".  Also, probabilities in reality change depending on who the players are and what the environment around them is (and both tend to affect the other).  What's realistic for Bill Gates and Warren Buffet isn't at all realistic for a homeless person.

Quote from: Moogleborg on December 14, 2007, 12:41:46 AM
Whoa geez, calm down here....I mean sure, stuff like realism is important in a drama, but lets not try to cause some drama here, shall we!?

I'm sorry.  I didn't realize we weren't already calm.  What parts come off as not-calm?

Depending on the parts of "realism" you're referring to, I don't think realism is important in a drama at all.  If we're talking about realism in the setting, then I tend to prefer fantasy as a background.  If we're talking about realism in the human emotions and responses, then realism varies.  The relationship between realism and enjoyment vary a lot for me.  For example, I found KKnJ to be very enjoyable because it was so realistic (for me) and related a lot to what I and people I know have been through.  However, a lot of very realistic programs (like some of the "slice of life" drama) strike me as just boring.  Often, drama is enjoyable because it can't happen in reality, but it does show us what we wanted to happen or what we were afraid would happen if certain circumstances were to become real.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 01:12:25 PM
I'm sorry.  I didn't realize we weren't already calm.  What parts come off as not-calm?

I was mostly refering to Pyrons responses to your opinions Nyxin. In a few of his responses, it seems like he exploded. Especially about the realism part. I mean is this a place to share opinions or a verbal battle!?

Quote from: JohnnyAR on December 12, 2007, 08:01:54 PM
Do you know of one that teaches that opposites attract?

All and none.  Think "yingyang".  All romance is a balance of opposites and likes, and every good couple (both real and fictional) has their differences and similarities.  In any good romance, you should be able to point to a whole bunch of traits that show that they're opposites plus another bunch of traits that show that they're alike.  Both "opposites attract" and "birds of a feather flock together" are simultaneously correct.  Humans are very complex, and there are always very many factors in play.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 01:12:25 PM

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 03:28:38 PMit's not just about PASSING school. You have to do well enough to advance into a decent school.

stuff

You see, schools in Japan ARE pretty much very similar to each other. It's all a matter of which one has a better reputation. The better the reputation of the school, the higher the test score is required to be to get into it. In any country, there are good and bad schools... but comparing American schools with Japanese schools creates a whole different range. Even poor schools, by Asian standards, would be pretty tough by American standards. Also keep in mind that America, in comparison, is a HUUUUUUGE country compared to tiny Japan. Society in Japan in all regions differ only slightly, whereas in America, differences could be very dramatic. Over history, Japan prefers not to change, so people have remained relatively the same within the country for decades.

Quote

Quoteyou SOMEHOW misread the blog entries I linked.

The idea that the blogger can refer to one school as "Ghetto School" and another school as "School of Peace" means that there are schools of different levels in Japan.  How is that wrong?  I didn't mean a "literal ghetto" as opposed to areas that just aren't as good as others.

Again, nicknames like "Ghetto School" and "School of Peace" are exclusive to his blog and his experiences. I didn't suggest that all schools are the same; they do have their differences, but still do believe that academics in Asia are more strict than American schools are.

Quote

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 13, 2007, 02:14:39 PMYou seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

Yes and no.  Yes, they have a different culture.  But they still have to eat, sleep, and breathe.  They still have the impulse to smile (however slightly) when amused, and they still bleed when they cut themselves.  They still feel joy and pain.  They still have people they like better than others.  And they're still a huge population with a large range of traits.

Yeah, okay. I was well aware that they're all human... not that I had ever suggested that they were anything but. The cultural differences between America and Asia, especially Japan, (almost literally) are on opposite ends of the planet. Using that as an argument to defend your lack of understanding for it is pretty weak.

Quote

QuoteAgain, they're not-- at least in this scale.

We might just be talking about different scales then.

Or your scale is far too general to have an understanding of things. It's like you're looking at every breed and species of canines and calling them all dogs, whereas domestic breeds are totally different from wolves and dingos. America, Japan, hell, Australia... they're all on the same planet, but they're different countries.

Quote from: Moogleborg on December 14, 2007, 01:24:03 PM

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 01:12:25 PM
I'm sorry.  I didn't realize we weren't already calm.  What parts come off as not-calm?

I was mostly refering to Pyrons responses to your opinions Nyxin. In a few of his responses, it seems like he exploded. Especially about the realism part. I mean is this a place to share opinions or a verbal battle!?

Ohoho, bias. From what I can see, Nixyin, Pyron, I, and everybody else have been quite calm. I know he can be pretty mellow in person, but if that's Pyron exploding, I can't imagine how badly his ass gets kicked if he ever got into an actual argument with a woman. =P

Quote from: Moogleborg on December 14, 2007, 01:24:03 PMI was mostly refering to Pyrons responses to your opinions Nyxin. In a few of his responses, it seems like he exploded. Especially about the realism part. I mean is this a place to share opinions or a verbal battle!?

Ah, OK, I can see how that can be read as an explosion, but I get the impression that lots of people can do that very calmly on the Internet.

It's like video games.  From some points of view, kids are sitting there quietly and impassively while pushing buttons very quickly.  (Granted, it varies: some kids throw their whole bodies around to play video games, but other kids move nothing but their fingers.)  From other points of view, the kids are running over pedestrians, beating up other people, learning bad language, shooting things down, and immersing themselves in all sorts of horrible and degenerate emotions.

I tend to be in the "it's nothing more than special effects on the screen" camp.  For me, unless I have solid evidence to the contrary, caps lock and "!?" are just a bunch of keystrokes that are very easy to press.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 01:12:25 PM
If the Japanese determine school via test scores, it means that there are good schools and bad schools in Japan, just like there are good schools and bad schools here.  Not all US schools are alike, and that would seem to suggest that not all Japanese schools are alike.  There are private schools in the US that require an exam, and there are (or maybe "were" by now) programs even in public school that require exams.  The stratification problems are probably worse in Japan because the exams are so ubiquitous: all the delinquents and low achievers would end up segregated into the worst schools, while the good ones that do well on exams end up in a different reality, so to speak.  But that doesn't mean that the we don't have our equivalents.  "The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations."  It's like the Japanese saying that all Americans have to worry about guns.  Sure, many Americans carry guns, and most Americans do worry about guns, but there's a huge variation in how different Americans experience guns, and some Americans in some areas might worry about guns less than all Japanese.  A Japanese person going to Texas or Missouri could easily write (and be right) about how the whole office takes off and goes shooting and drinking for fun "in America" and still not be right about how many Californians spend their time.  According to the stories, back when Megumi Hayashibara came to California as a guest of an anime convention, she asked to the organizers to take her to a shooting range, expecting that all Americans would just know how to do that.  This idea that we Americans regularly use shooting ranges is realistic for some Americans and not for others.  "Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her."  "Realistic" varies a lot depending on what each person experiences.  When East Palo Alto was the murder capital of the world, how "realistic" would that have felt to the residents of Atherton and Los Altos?

Le Sigh again. Jun pretty much discussed everything about JP schools that I would have said but the second half of this... makes me wonder. So you're basically stating that "realism is dependent on place and area". Realism is about probability as I already stated. If something is likely to happen compared to unlikely to happen. Now stating the whole gun thing. Yes, it would be unrealistic for say... a bunch of office mates in let's say, Irvine, Ca, to go shooting after they get off work every weekend. And it is realistic to say that it is in Texas(PS, it's not). It's more likely to happen in Texas, but still not as realistic as the number is quite low still. But just for the sake of arguement...

Now, what happens in the series is very unlikely to happen in Japan, I can atest to that, and so can anyone that knows a decent amount of the social life in Japan. Now the question is, is it likely to happen in the US. And once again, I will say no. I've put a pretty decent run down of the characters and who they are, and the extremes of what they are. Are there people sorta similar to Arima and Yukino, sure. A lot of people have self-identity issues, a lot of people are good at academics and sports... however, the level of extremity is not even close. If someone was at the level of Arima and Yukino in the real world, in the US, they would be in hardcore therapy. They'd be taking all kinds of different medications, and probably not be put into school. You miss a huge thing about Arima. Arima... was not fine before Yukino. Yukino is what made Arima better, because prior to that he wasn't human. He was nothing more than a drone that lived for the sake of an image. That's why Arima pushed Yukino away from him, because she was getting close to him, and he didn't want that image jeapordized. If she found out his secret, it would ruin everything he's done for the past odd decade.

The characters in themselves are unrealistic. The whole scene about how long it went before they held hands, and kissed, how they treated the relationship, everything about it was unrealistic. It's a fairy tale story in terms of progression and innocence. PS: Anno hated KareKano when he realized Arima and Yukino had sex, because to him it destroyed the innocence of two characters he loved. PSS: Your average Japanese student doesn't make it past 16 without losing their virginity, and may of them lose it by 14. It's extremely unrealistic to find an 18 year old normal Japanese girl. The ones that are virgins are usually socially inept or outcasts.

QuoteThe idea that the blogger can refer to one school as "Ghetto School" and another school as "School of Peace" means that there are schools of different levels in Japan.  How is that wrong?  I didn't mean a "literal ghetto" as opposed to areas that just aren't as good as others.

It doesn't have to be a "literal ghetto" for kids to have access to guns.  It just takes the parents not paying attention, and that can happen anywhere.  The median household income in the city around Columbine is $73,000, and 45.5% had at least a college degree.  (In contrast, the city of Santa Clara -- not the best area in the world, but not too shabby, and certainly not a "literal ghetto" -- has a median household income of $69,466 and 42.4% college graduates.)  Columbine didn't happen in a "literal ghetto".  (That's partly why it made news.)

Also, some pretty bad bullying must've taken place in Columbine.  However, with access to guns, the bullies can only go so far before they get blown away.

And again, you don't have any understanding of Japanese schooling. And you automatically assume that intelligence/exam scores is a direct interpretation of how "good/bad" the person is/are. I'm going to let you know in advance... you have it backwards. The worst students in Japan in terms of bullying, are usually the smartest kids. They have the capability to lead masses, manipulate others, and torture others. The failure kids, usually are the ones that are just bullies in the simplest terms. The ones that take money and what not to feel better about themselves. These aren't the biggest problems. It's the smart ones that bully to make others feel worthless that are the bigger issue.

QuoteArima and Yukino wear very different levels of masks.  Yukino is in touch with and in control of her mask.  For Arima, however, his mask isn't the same type of mask because he fooled himself too.  From Arima's point of view, there was no mask and no illusion -- and thus nothing to maintain.  All he knew about himself was that he wanted to be this superman for the sake of his foster parents.

It's so obvious that you're building an arguement based on what I said prior. But no, you're wrong. He is in touch and realizes it. Again, he would not have pushed Yukino away if he wasn't aware of it. He wouldn't have kept only 1 single friend, yet still did not tell that friend about the details of his life. He was very aware of what he was doing, and that's what made him perfect in action. It was only eventually that Yukino broke down his wall that he started to change. It was exactly what he was afraid of, but it was exactly what "he needed". He had it all planned and organized since he was a child. Again, your analysis makes me wonder quite a bit at how much attention you actually paid to the stories you read.

QuoteOK, we're partly disagreeing because we have totally different definitions of "realistic" and "probable" then.  Actually, I think we've all being playing very loose with this word, "realistic", and we never defined what "realistic" meant.

If we agree that time machines are neither real nor realistic, then the past has a probability of 1: if it already happened, then it's 100% "probable to happen".  Reality has to have a bearing on what one considers is "realistic".  Otherwise, the word "realistic" becomes meaningless, and one's idea of "realistic" becomes "fantastic".  In my world, reality is fundamentally very necessarily "realistic".  Also, probabilities in reality change depending on who the players are and what the environment around them is (and both tend to affect the other).  What's realistic for Bill Gates and Warren Buffet isn't at all realistic for a homeless person.

Again... just because something happens, does not make it realistic. One in a million things happen all the time, but they are still unrealistic and unlikely event. Oh, if something happened in the past, that doesn't mean the probability to happen is 100%. that means that there is a chance it will happen in a set amount of attempts. Okay, let's take for example, something incredibly huge and major. Is getting struck by lighting realistic. If I go stand outside in a storm, is it realistic I get hit by lighting? Many people in the past have been struck by lightning before, by your reasoning and logic. it is 100% probably to happen, that I will get struck by lightning then.

So all of those times in the past I was struck by lightning and lived and didn't notice/feel a thing then right? Because you clearly stated, if it already happened in the past, the probability of it happening is 0. If I flip a coin heads, the next time I flip that coin, it will be 100% heads right? Because... it happened in the past, therefore it is 100% probably to happen". Each individual action has it's own probability. Happening in the past means nothing. Back to my first example. I blindly throw a ball from half court. The probability of it happening is not 100%, it is probably like 1 in 560,000 or something.  CAN IT HAPPEN. the probability of it possibly happening is 100% unless the feat in itself is impossible, but it doesn't mean that it will, or is likely to happen.

Here's an old thing my science teacher discussed with us concerning realism, probability, and science. Nothing is 100%. There is a likeliness and unlikeliness in every event. Random factors beyond our imagination may always take place, but chances are, they won't happen. If I bounce a ball... what will happen? The ball will bounce back with the same amount of force, minus the loss of energy from friction, heat, and absorbtion through the air correct? WRONG. Just because that is the most likely and realistic event, does not mean that is what is going to happen. What if there is a small pebble that none of us could see and it made the trajectory change and shoot to the left? What if... the ball explodes because of a change in heat and air pressure that none of you realized because it was so miniscule it would be unmeasurable to humans. Both the latter events are so unlikely to happen, that you could bet on it bouncing back and probably win every single time you did it in your life span, however the possibility still exists that something different might happen. This is science though. Knowing that we're probably right about something, but knowing that things could change at anytime. Science in itself is the "current understanding" not a law that guarantees it to happen. What we know now, as scientific fact can change at any time by forces we do not understand yet.

He has a doctrine in both biology as well as physics, and even though I learned close to nothing in this class, I will remember that speech forever.

Basically, you're right, we have different definitions of "realistic". Mine is correct, and yours is not.

QuoteDepending on the parts of "realism" you're referring to, I don't think realism is important in a drama at all.  If we're talking about realism in the setting, then I tend to prefer fantasy as a background.  If we're talking about realism in the human emotions and responses, then realism varies.  The relationship between realism and enjoyment vary a lot for me.  For example, I found KKnJ to be very enjoyable because it was so realistic (for me) and related a lot to what I and people I know have been through.  However, a lot of very realistic programs (like some of the "slice of life" drama) strike me as just boring.  Often, drama is enjoyable because it can't happen in reality, but it does show us what we wanted to happen or what we were afraid would happen if certain circumstances were to become real.

Every story that wants to accomplish something must contain some point of realism in it, otherwise your average person would not be able to relate or understand it at all. There has to be a control basis that allows people to put themselves into a position and attempt to understand what is going on. Outside of pure comedies, there is always a point of realism, not matter how fantastical the story is. Humans, are humans. Physics are physics. But there will always be a random unrealistic factor. The loser character ends up with the beautiful amazing secondary character. A random person finds magical powers.

The point of most stories is the "if that happened to me" factor. An unlikely, unrealistic situation that is created by stupid dumb luck, or another force which makes the impossible happen.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 01:34:04 PMAll and none.  Think "yingyang".  All romance is a balance of opposites and likes, and every good couple (both real and fictional) has their differences and similarities.  In any good romance, you should be able to point to a whole bunch of traits that show that they're opposites plus another bunch of traits that show that they're alike.  Both "opposites attract" and "birds of a feather flock together" are simultaneously correct.  Humans are very complex, and there are always very many factors in play.

Actually no. "Both opposites attract" and "birds of a feather flock together" are not simultaneously correct. The idea of them are meant to be on high levels. Opposites means that most traits between the two are very different almost to extremities. And for Birds, most traits are extremely similar, almost to extremities.

It has been scientifically shown in thousands of studies, that opposites rarely work out, as those sharing many similar traits often times do work out. As a side note though, opposites often time have more passionate flings, despite their short time span, while similar like, are not as passionate but have more consistency.

Are you going to argue about defenitions again?

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on December 14, 2007, 02:00:23 PMYou see, schools in Japan ARE pretty much very similar to each other.

In what way?  If all kids that pass a test aim for schools with good reputations and all kids who fail the test end up at other schools, then it pretty much necessarily creates a different mix of people and a different social environment.  The curriculum might be the same across the board, but the type of people in the schools just logically can't be if they're segregated via testing.

5% of the junior high schools in Japan are private while 95% are public.  Only 45% of the junior high schools had computers by 1989, which means 55% didn't.  Apparently, some schools are "elevator schools", and others aren't.  Wouldn't that create a different social environment too?  They have a few private schools that cater to specific minorities, and they even have a few public schools for the handicapped.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 14, 2007, 02:41:03 PM

QuoteIf we agree that time machines are neither real nor realistic, then the past has a probability of 1

Okay, let's take for example, something incredibly huge and major. Is getting struck by lighting realistic. If I go stand outside in a storm, is it realistic I get hit by lighting? Many people in the past have been struck by lightning before, by your reasoning and logic. it is 100% probably to happen, that I will get struck by lightning then.

The probability that the event of a coin being flipped yesterday and turning up heads is 100% if it actually did turn up heads and 0% if it didn't actually turn up heads.  The probability of the past ever happening is 100%.  "Hindsight is 20/20."  The probability of the past occurring again in the future, however, is a different issue, but the past is the past and the probability is 100% that it happened.

QuoteHere's an old thing my science teacher discussed with us concerning realism, probability, and science. Nothing is 100%.

That's true about predictions and expectations.  But what has happened, no matter how unlikely it was before it happened, has happened.  After it happens, it's 100% likely to ever occur because it has already occurred.

QuoteWhat we know now, as scientific fact can change at any time by forces we do not understand yet.

True.  If we figure out time travel, then things go haywire.

QuoteOpposites means that most traits between the two are very different almost to extremities.

No two humans can be that different.  We all share something like over 95% of our DNA.  We all live on the same planet.  We all have to deal with the same gravitational constant.

QuoteIt has been scientifically shown in thousands of studies, that opposites rarely work out, as those sharing many similar traits often times do work out.

Scientific studies show that particular opposite traits do not work out and particular similar traits do.  Scientific studies have also shown that it's most common for couples to share between 25% to 75% of traits in a general personality inventory.  Couples with too many different personality traits have a lower percentage of long-term success, but the same goes for couple with too high of a percentage of similar traits.  But, well, scientific studies about personalities and relationships tend to very poorly constructed to the point of being invalid anyways.  For any hypothesis about personalities and relationships, I'm sure a casual web search will pull up several studies supporting the hypothesis and several studies that disagrees with it.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 03:10:54 PMThe probability that the event of a coin being flipped yesterday and turning up heads is 100% if it actually did turn up heads and 0% if it didn't actually turn up heads.  The probability of the past ever happening is 100%.  "Hindsight is 20/20."  The probability of the past occurring again in the future, however, is a different issue, but the past is the past and the probability is 100% that it happened.

And none of this applies to this discussion. All that shows is that, something CAN HAPPEN and HAS... that doesn't make the event realistic or even likely to happen. Robert got struck by lightning. That doesn't mean getting struck by lightning is a realistic event, it happens sure, but is so unlikely that chances are it won't happen. Some people have been struck by lightning twice, which is even more unrealistic and still very unlikely. People win the lottery all the time, does that mean winning the lottery is realistic? Longshot chances are not realistic events. Relationships that begin in Jr. High ending in marriage and lasting 60+ years... EXTREMELY unrealistic, but it happens.

Seriously... what in god's hell are you trying to argue? That, because something happened in a story, or happened before in the history of mankind, that it said event is realistic? Spell it out for me, because you are making absolutely no sense at all.

QuoteThat's true about predictions and expectations.  But what has happened, no matter how unlikely it was before it happened, has happened.  After it happens, it's 100% likely to ever occur because it has already occurred.

Not only did you miss the point of that entire speech, what you said is still wrong. "100% likely to ever occur because it already occured." Wooly Mammoths will walk the earth again. I will be in another car crash where I should have died, but some how came out completely unscathed as it has happened twice to me before, therefore it is 100% likely to happen to me again right? An event happened, means that it happened. It has no bearing on the chances or probability of it happening again.

QuoteNo two humans can be that different.  We all share something like over 95% of our DNA.  We all live on the same planet.  We all have to deal with the same gravitational constant.

Now you're just being stupid. Basic concept of understood usages of words. "Opposites" in terms of personalities does not mean literal opposites, because it's impossible to be a literal opposite.

Ask any psychologist if "Which is true in terms of human relationships, "Opposites attract" or "Bird of a feather Flock Together" and you will get the second answer.

Btw, the basic Psychology 1 hind sight test that you are pulling this from doesn't impress anyone. It sure as hell doesn't impress me. The basis of the test is to show that hindsight makes an answer sound correct, even if it's almost completely false. Opposites attract, is a used cliche heard quite a bit, so it sounds true, despite realistically, it being completely false in practice. People with little in common rarely work out long term. Birds of a feather, doesn't mean "exactly the same" but in general, it means "very similar" in the same way "Opposites attract" does not mean completely opposite. You're screwing up your own analyzation because of self imposed errors in terminology and basic usage.

I don't care, what school you went to, what GPA you had, what honors you got, this show of intelligence you're attempting is bull, as the logic behind everything you're saying doesn't make sense.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 14, 2007, 03:29:23 PMSeriously... what in god's hell are you trying to argue? That, because something happened in a story, or happened before in the history of mankind, that it said event is realistic? Spell it out for me, because you are making absolutely no sense at all.

I seem to have gotten my message across: reality necessarily has to have bearing on what is "realistic".  If something has happened, then the probabilities have changed.  If wearing tall metal rods as caps were to become fashionable and lightning was hitting lots of people every day, then people's idea of "realistic" have to include getting hit by lightning, no matter how unrealistic it was before.  The way humans have designed social statistics, every time something happens, the probabilities change.

QuoteNow you're just being stupid. Basic concept of understood usages of words. "Opposites" in terms of personalities does not mean literal opposites, because it's impossible to be a literal opposite.

Agreed, so all that's different between "opposites" and "likes" are the random lines people draw based on their limited points of view.  From some points of view, Yukino and Arima are very much alike because they're both top students in the same school.  From other points of view, they're very much opposites because Arima is not in control while Yukino is.  Likewise, in Hana Yori Dango, Makino and Doumyouji are arguably opposites because Makino is only middle-class while Doumyouji is rich.  But they're alike in that they're both very stubborn.

QuoteAsk any psychologist if "Which is true in terms of human relationships, "Opposites attract" or "Bird of a feather Flock Together" and you will get the second answer.

If you ask a biological anthropologist, you get the first answer: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb416491.htm  "Research has shown that when we are young and not looking to get married, we tend to date those who are like ourselves," explains Fisher. "But when we are considering someone to spend our life with, we find ourselves seeking someone who will complement ourselves rather than be exactly like us."  As I said, there are many factors, and psychology is far to complex for our state of research to make any proper conclusions.  Psychologists are often not taken very seriously scientifically as their margin for error is much higher (and their probabilities change very much faster) than that in more respected forms of science.

Quotethe logic behind everything you're saying doesn't make sense.

Fine, I'll bite.  This once.  And only because the setup in this case is far too amusing to not share.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that logic makes no sense to you.  People who have even a minimal understanding of logic generally recognize ad hominems as fallacies and at least try to refrain from using them.

There.  Part of me feels much better now.  However, part of me also recognizes that I've now helped drag the conversation into the dirt (not to mention myself), and in the long run, this helped the ad hominem team win.  I still hope someone else got a chuckle out of it anyways.

Since I'd hate to leave it on that note, back to the anime...

QuoteThe characters in themselves are unrealistic. The whole scene about how long it went before they held hands, and kissed, how they treated the relationship, everything about it was unrealistic. It's a fairy tale story in terms of progression and innocence. PS: Anno hated KareKano when he realized Arima and Yukino had sex, because to him it destroyed the innocence of two characters he loved.

The characters are very real.  Granted, most people like that are geeks and nerds in the US, but Arima and Yukino are not in the US.  If the smart ones are often the bullies, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that the geeks and nerds are considered the social elite.  Maybe it's not normal behavior for the majority of the student population, but if bullying is so widespread, then it seems reasonable that the majority of the student population knows and gossips about the tiny minority that is really so innocent.  I hated that Arima and Yukino had sex too, and even if the bottom 99.9% of students have sex, Tsuda decided to set her story outside of that.  Depending on the constraints that the reader decides are important, the story can be realistic or unrealistic.  As far as I can tell, you seem to be saying that the top 0.1% is "unrealistic"; after all, it's very highly improbable that any given person is in the top 0.1%.  However, from my point of view, most people in the school have heard about the people in that top 0.1%.  So, because, say, 60% of the school talks, gossips, or briefly thinks about their student body president, class valedictorian, last innocent virgin, etc., and they know them to be real, then that 0.1% of people are "realistic" because 60% of the school are influenced by their existence.  Maybe it's not probable that any given office in Texas takes off to hunt turkeys on Thanksgiving, but a whole lot of people recognize it as reality that Cheney went hunting in Texas and shot someone, and because so many people recognize it as real, I think of Texans going hunting as realistic.  Furthermore, perception of "realistic" does change as people have more exposure.  Stepping back and taking a look at general statistics, then getting divorced is rather probable.  However, when zooming in and getting closer to the situation, any given demographic or any given couple getting divorced may not be.

As for Genshiken, how many people in Japan are anime/manga freaks in a club that is neither the anime club nor the manga club?  How many of those people manage to publish their own comics, make their own cosplay, or become manga editors?  I don't get the impression that those statistics are very high.  Yes, it might be realistic from the point of view of otaku but not the rest of the population, just like KareKano might be realistic from the point of view of valedictorians but not the rest of the population.

QuoteIt's extremely unrealistic to find an 18 year old normal Japanese girl.

If it's "unrealistic" to find someone who's "normal", then I have to wonder what either "normal" or "unrealistic" means in this context.  In my world, and by the definition of "probability" being used, "normal" has to be "realistic".  ;)

Joking aside, if we decide that we're working within the constraint of only the one top-ranked female student from each school, I wonder what's the statistics for those #1 females in each school still being virgins...  Statistics -- and thus perceptions of probabilities -- change based on which constraints people accept.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 05:28:25 PM
I seem to have gotten my message across: reality necessarily has to have bearing on what is "realistic".  If something has happened, then the probabilities have changed.  If wearing tall metal rods as caps were to become fashionable and lightning was hitting lots of people every day, then people's idea of "realistic" have to include getting hit by lightning, no matter how unrealistic it was before.  The way humans have designed social statistics, every time something happens, the probabilities change.

No you didn't prove or show anything. You can make something unrealistic realistic over time, and with a HUGE social change... but fortunately, "what if" scenerios and "possibly" don't make it "realistic" in the real world. Realistic can change, just like science can. But right now, it's not. Is it realistic that tomorrow everyone will leave their houses naked? No it isn't. Right now, it is unrealistic for that to happen. In ten years, it might be acceptable, and fashionable(though that is unrealistic too), but right now, it is unrealistic. I can create a situation where anything is realistic, but again, we're in the real world where there is a real base of things. Probabilities CAN change, but it must be a huge MAJOR change for it to become "realistic" compared to the original "unrealistic" state. And honestly... it's trends that change the probability, not the occurance of the event. Flipping a coin and getting heads 2 times in a row, does not make the third flip more likely to be either heads or tails. The probability is the same. The third flips probability is still 50/50(minus human error, and things like minor weight differences due to chipping or anything like that).

You did take AP stats right? This is supposed to be one of the first things you learn.

QuoteAgreed, so all that's different between "opposites" and "likes" are the random lines people draw based on their limited points of view.  From some points of view, Yukino and Arima are very much alike because they're both top students in the same school.  From other points of view, they're very much opposites because Arima is not in control while Yukino is.  Likewise, in Hana Yori Dango, Makino and Doumyouji are arguably opposites because Makino is only middle-class while Doumyouji is rich.  But they're alike in that they're both very stubborn.

... You point out specifics, the terminology is about overall and general instances. I can find millions of similarities, and millions of likes, but their is still a general air of people that creates differences. Based on your reasoning, everyone is an exact neutral, which isn't the case, otherwise there would be no such things as similar people or different people. It's about the general base of ther personality, and how they view the world and different things. General views and opinion. Not specifics...

QuoteIf you ask a biological anthropologist, you get the first answer: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb416491.htm  "Research has shown that when we are young and not looking to get married, we tend to date those who are like ourselves," explains Fisher. "But when we are considering someone to spend our life with, we find ourselves seeking someone who will complement ourselves rather than be exactly like us."  As I said, there are many factors, and psychology is far to complex for our state of research to make any proper conclusions.  Psychologists are often not taken very seriously scientifically as their margin for error is much higher (and their probabilities change very much faster) than that in more respected forms of science.

No... that's if you ask google about percentages and specifics. But nice try at trying to "prove me wrong" instead of actually paying attention to the point of it all.

QuoteFine, I'll bite.  This once.  And only because the setup in this case is far too amusing to not share.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that logic makes no sense to you.  People who have even a minimal understanding of logic generally recognize ad hominems as fallacies and at least try to refrain from using them.

There.  Part of me feels much better now.  However, part of me also recognizes that I've now helped drag the conversation into the dirt (not to mention myself), and in the long run, this helped the ad hominem team win.  I still hope someone else got a chuckle out of it anyways.

Since I'd hate to leave it on that note, back to the anime...

Nice...  Seeing that everything I said is on the basis of logic and nothing you said follows logic. Such as "LOL If it happens in the past, that means it's realistic!" Also your little comment of how "Genshiken is only a parody and not realistic". Lovely, when it's baseless and completely incorrect. You're not using logic, you're trying to argue like it's a science paper essay, only you're missing the conclusive evidence, and the logical chain of reasoning as to why. Your whole point was that...

It's realistic, because I think so based on what I've seen in my life. I replied with how your experiences are extremely minimal especially about a foreign country you know nothing about. In addition to that, your experiences/examples are only remotely similar, and do not match up to the magnitude in which the original basis is the subject. I can eat a 5 hamburgers. That is eating a lot(for sake of arguement). If someone eats 500 in a cartoon, my eating a lot of hamburgers(let's even say 50), it doesn't mean that it's the same as eating 500 in cartoon. Eating 500 is unrealistic, my example of eating a whole crap load, does not mean it is realistic. This is what you have done to support your "it's realistic".

After that, you started stating that "it's realistic because it happened in the past" to which i replied it doesn't. Statistics do not change, without major influence, as well, statistics do not change because of a prior outcome. As I have displayed with the coin flip example.

So again, I do not understand the logic in your examples... because the logic doesn't exist. Your arguements do not link together, but instead only try to disprove the last thing I said. If you follow everything I said,the all add up together, but yours jump ship and try to only disprove the last thing I said.

QuoteThe characters are very real.  Granted, most people like that are geeks and nerds in the US, but Arima and Yukino are not in the US.  If the smart ones are often the bullies, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that the geeks and nerds are considered the social elite.  Maybe it's not normal behavior for the majority of the student population, but if bullying is so widespread, then it seems reasonable that the majority of the student population knows and gossips about the tiny minority that is really so innocent.  I hated that Arima and Yukino had sex too, and even if the bottom 99.9% of students have sex, Tsuda decided to set her story outside of that.  Depending on the constraints that the reader decides are important, the story can be realistic or unrealistic.  As far as I can tell, you seem to be saying that the top 0.1% is "unrealistic"; after all, it's very highly improbable that any given person is in the top 0.1%.  However, from my point of view, most people in the school have heard about the people in that top 0.1%.  So, because, say, 60% of the school talks, gossips, or briefly thinks about their student body president, class valedictorian, last innocent virgin, etc., and they know them to be real, then that 0.1% of people are "realistic" because 60% of the school are influenced by their existence.  Maybe it's not probable that any given office in Texas takes off to hunt turkeys on Thanksgiving, but a whole lot of people recognize it as reality that Cheney went hunting in Texas and shot someone, and because so many people recognize it as real, I think of Texans going hunting as realistic.  Furthermore, perception of "realistic" does change as people have more exposure.  Stepping back and taking a look at general statistics, then getting divorced is rather probable.  However, when zooming in and getting closer to the situation, any given demographic or any given couple getting divorced may not be.

You're missing so much. You're trying to put titles and completely side track everything. They are not realistic for a number of reasons. Their relationship, and how it proceeded. It's not unrealistic to be smart and score in the top 0.1%. It's unrealistic for them to carry the lives they had, be who they were, score in the top 0.1%, as well as a number of other things that all combined... make them who they were. "A few people do go turkey hunting in Texas near thanksgiving" is realistic." However "Texans go turkey hunting near thanksgiving" is a lie. Just because "some do" doesn't mean the generalized statement becomes true or realistic. Divorce is probable. In general the rate is about 50%. So stating that "a relationship ending in divorce is realistic" is true. Just like stating "A relationship not ending in divorce is realistic" is also true. There are many murder cases where a wife kills a husband, or a husband kills a wife. Stating that "A marriage will end in murder is realistic" IS NOT TRUE. The chances of it happening exists, but it's not realistic. Even if let's say it's more likely to happen in Kentucky over Washington. You could say "IT is more likely that a marriage will end in murder in Kentucky than Washington" but stating "A marriage in Kentucky will end in murder" IS NOT realistic at all.

You miss the point of what makes something realistic. A few facts does not make something realistic. All characters have realistic traits, but that doesn't make the character as a whole realistic. Ichijo from PaniPoniDash is a smart student and class president. But she is not a realistic character, seeing that she can talk to aliens, see things without any realistic way to, access to millions of items, poisons, can stand on ceilings, and a number of other things as well.

An extreme example, but a statement that, a few small facts of realistic personalities, does not make a CHARACTER realistic. Nor their situations.

QuoteAs for Genshiken, how many people in Japan are anime/manga freaks in a club that is neither the anime club nor the manga club?  How many of those people manage to publish their own comics, make their own cosplay, or become manga editors?  I don't get the impression that those statistics are very high.  Yes, it might be realistic from the point of view of otaku but not the rest of the population, just like KareKano might be realistic from the point of view of valedictorians but not the rest of the population.

Most people do not, but their situations and their actions all are realistic, outside of Kousaka and Saki. How they act is very much like they do. Just to let you in, I visited the college and the club Genshiken was based on while in Japan. I'm in circles that are EXTREMELY similar to the people within the clubs. Personalities, spending habits, etc. etc. etc. are extremely similar. Their actions and thoughts are not to the point of extremity(outside of Kohsaka and Saki)that normal humans don't act like that. What about Genshiken is unrealistic? I know for a fact that some people on this forum are extremely similar to the characters of Genshiken. Maybe not exactly, but realistically close.  Karekano is unrealistic because you seem to only want to look at 1 fact or 1 characteristic at a time, instead of seeing a character for what they are.

QuoteIf it's "unrealistic" to find someone who's "normal", then I have to wonder what either "normal" or "unrealistic" means in this context.  In my world, and by the definition of "probability" being used, "normal" has to be "realistic".  ;)

Left out the word "virgin", sorry about that.

QuoteJoking aside, if we decide that we're working within the constraint of only the one top-ranked female student from each school, I wonder what's the statistics for those #1 females in each school still being virgins...  Statistics -- and thus perceptions of probabilities -- change based on which constraints people accept.

Percentages change, but it doesn't change that it's unrealistic for a female in Japan to be a virgin by 18, and that it's realistic for a JP girl to lose her virginity by 16.

"Post your favorite romance/drama series XP "

Where's the love?

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 14, 2007, 03:10:54 PM

QuoteOpposites means that most traits between the two are very different almost to extremities.

No two humans can be that different.  We all share something like over 95% of our DNA.  We all live on the same planet.  We all have to deal with the same gravitational constant.

Again, you're looking at things on the wrong scale. I'm not going to argue the fact that, in this world, there really isn't "true individuality". No two humans can be completely different... but on a lower scale, no two humans can be exactly the same. We do all live on the same planet... put it on an astronomical scale, all humans are the same. At a higher scale, all animals are the same. At an even HIGHER scale, anything that EXISTS in the universe is the same. But pulling the "but, we're all the same!" card weakens your argument. We're not arguing whether or not everyone on the planet, every country, every culture is similar (Which is the scale you seem to be stuck on.)... We're talking about the differences of Japan/Asia and America. It makes a good difference on perspective.

As for everything else... seriously, no comment.

Quote from: Polaris3C on December 14, 2007, 11:12:29 PM
"Post your favorite romance/drama series XP "

Where's the love?

Good question. XD

This is why I no longer care to reason or waste my time with certain people. Maybe if opinions can be respected, more posts will be made. But for now... naaa

Anyways, for the topic

Bokura Ga Ita.. kinda.
Hana Yori Dango ( at least the second half of it)
KGOR
KGNE.. maybe slightly
Video Girl Ai (although more like a live-triangle like DNA^2)
SaiKano

Few more I'm missing which I don't care to try and remember atm.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 14, 2007, 06:55:00 PMFlipping a coin and getting heads 2 times in a row, does not make the third flip more likely to be either heads or tails.

The third flip, which has not happened yet, is still something rather close to 50/50.  The first two flips, which already came up heads, have a 100% probability of being heads if we assume that we can't change the past.

QuoteYou point out specifics, the terminology is about overall and general instances. I can find millions of similarities, and millions of likes, but their is still a general air of people that creates differences.

And the "general air" that people notice is based a lot on where they're looking and what point of view they're coming from.

QuoteBased on your reasoning, everyone is an exact neutral, which isn't the case, otherwise there would be no such things as similar people or different people.

No, similar people or different people -- the overall effect -- depends on the point of view being used.  What is more important, is shown to, or stands out more for the viewer.  In KareKano, the students in the school were commenting how much Yukino and Arima are alike and how much they just belong together.  The reader in the story is shown how much they're different.  In reality, humans are very complex, and general impressions depend on point of view.

QuoteIt's about the general base of ther personality, and how they view the world and different things. General views and opinion. Not specifics...

Yukino and Arima both have very positive outlooks on the world.  They have a deep respect of their parents and teachers, and they try very hard to be well-behaved and good students.  They took their clubs and schoolwork seriously.  When they met, they're both on the academic achievement track, and they had basically the same goals of growing up and becoming a productive and respectable members of society.  They're both Japanese, and they're the same age.  They go to the same school and participate in the same culture.  Generally, their attitudes towards the world are far more similar to each other than to that of anybody else in the show.  From that point of view, I'd have to say that KareKano is about how people who are similar belong together.  On the other hand, earlier, you had said that KareKano is one of the shows that teach that opposites attract.  I think you're right about that too: Arima and Yukino are opposites in many ways as well.  Overall, KareKano is realistic partly because it does show that people are complex, and it's not as easy as saying that opposites attract or similar people belong together.

QuoteYour whole point was that...  It's realistic, because I think so based on what I've seen in my life.

My opinion is, in general, outside of specifics like exact magnitude of achievement, KareKano is more generally and emotionally realistic than Hana Yori Dango and about as realistic as Genshiken overall.  I do agree that, depending on the point of view, none of them are realistic, and all of them have some element of realism.  I did explicitly put in words saying things like KareKano is more realistic "for me".

QuoteI replied with how your experiences are extremely minimal especially about a foreign country you know nothing about.

I'm saying that humans are very much alike, especially across first world countries, and at the same time, I doubt even twins raised together completely understand each other.  "Nothing" and "extremely minimal" are relative; I have visited 20 countries (including Japan and China), and whether anybody decides that humans are alike or different merely depends on where their limited focus is currently cast.  People can easily be right without the opposite opinions being wrong.  The world is very complex and vast and has room for very many points of view.

QuoteIn addition to that, your experiences/examples are only remotely similar, and do not match up to the magnitude in which the original basis is the subject. I can eat a 5 hamburgers. That is eating a lot(for sake of arguement). If someone eats 500 in a cartoon, my eating a lot of hamburgers(let's even say 50), it doesn't mean that it's the same as eating 500 in cartoon. Eating 500 is unrealistic, my example of eating a whole crap load, does not mean it is realistic.

If we're talking generally rather than specifically, then specific details like whether it was 5 or 500 hamburgers just generally isn't important.  The point is that it's a lot of hamburgers.  The series can still be realistic in general.  When saying that this hamburger-eating anime scene isn't realistic, the person simply decided to concentrate on the fact that it was 500 hamburgers instead of 5.  When saying that this scene is realistic, the person decided to concentrate on the idea that this hungry person wolfed down a lot of hamburgers without regarding social convention, which is realistic.  "Realistic" depends on point of view.

QuoteAfter that, you started stating that "it's realistic because it happened in the past" to which i replied it doesn't. Statistics do not change, without major influence, as well, statistics do not change because of a prior outcome.

Sure they do.  Statistics change all the time.  That's why people are constantly taking them.  If nobody was murdered in Los Altos last year, then 0 people were murdered in Los Altos last year.  If, this year, one person murders someone else there, then 1 person was murdered in Los Altos this year.  The statistic has changed.  And, because we structured social probabilities on statistics (which is technically rather invalid), that means that the probability has changed.

QuoteAs I have displayed with the coin flip example.

That coin still has a head and a tail.  The coin hasn't grown.  Its health hasn't been influenced by pollution in the environment.  It hasn't met new coins, and it hasn't learned new things.  It has no perception of probability of its own.  It has no memory.  It also hasn't been put into different situations.  If you flip a coin into a funnel that has a slot at the end, the probability that it will land on its side goes up.  The probability of something happening within a changing and diverse environment is constantly changing.

QuoteThey (Yukino and Arima) are not realistic for a number of reasons. Their relationship, and how it proceeded.

That's what I was saying about geeks and nerds.  It's realistic for people who concentrate that hard on their schoolwork and are so dedicated to their club activities.  It's not so improbable for people who figure out how to function within society but not have figured out how to function in an intimate relationship or what to do with the opposite sex.  It's realistic for a rival to end up as a best friend.  It seems realistic for a well-bred boy to wants sex and be ashamed/afraid about even thinking about doing it.  What's not realistic about their relationship or how it progressed?

Quote"A few people do go turkey hunting in Texas near thanksgiving" is realistic." However "Texans go turkey hunting near thanksgiving" is a lie. Just because "some do" doesn't mean the generalized statement becomes true or realistic.

However, statistics vary.  If one year, 51% of Texans went turkey hunting, but the next year, only 30% go, does that mean that an anime about Texans going turkey hunting is "realistic" one year but not the next?  Chances are that the people who lived through the 51% year are more likely to find the anime about turkey-hunting Texans to be realistic in general, while those who didn't are going to think of Texans going turkey hunting as less realistic in general.  Regardless, even if only 10% of Texans go turkey-hunting on Thanksgiving, an anime about turkey-hunting Texans can be considered realistic by a lot of people.

QuoteYou miss the point of what makes something realistic. A few facts does not make something realistic.

"Realistic", as commonly used by lay people in normal speech, is merely a perception, not a theoretical probability.

QuoteAn extreme example, but a statement that, a few small facts of realistic personalities, does not make a CHARACTER realistic. Nor their situations.

If someone watches an anime and it pretty much tells the story of a segment of their life and many friends report the same experience, then trying to assert that the anime isn't realistic isn't going to work very well.  The situations match, the emotions match, the way events unfolded match, the reactions match, the decisions match, the conclusions match, etc.  OK, maybe it was 7 hamburgers instead of a shapeless mountain of hamburgers, but it's still a lot of hamburgers, and such tiny details just aren't important: the anime overall can still be realistic.

Even TV shows in the US depend on the audience on whether they're found "realistic" or not.  Rosanne Barr, for example.  I thought it was over-the-top comedy and that Rosanne was a total caricature.  On the other hand, other people say they see it as realistic and a reflection of their lives.  If "realistic" isn't based in reality, then it's very much relative.  Me being right doesn't make them wrong.  In reality, there are too many factors to accurately calculate a true overall probability without saying a whole lot about the person trying to do the calculation.

QuoteMost people do not, but their situations and their actions all are realistic, outside of Kousaka and Saki. How they act is very much like they do. Just to let you in, I visited the college and the club Genshiken was based on while in Japan.

So, Genshiken is realistic because it's very similar to the people in the one club that it's based on.  Out of how many Japanese?  Millions?  Billions?  In the end, the idea that Genshiken is realistic or not seems to be very much colored by the viewer's experiences as well.

QuoteI'm in circles that are EXTREMELY similar to the people within the clubs. Personalities, spending habits, etc. etc. etc. are extremely similar. Their actions and thoughts are not to the point of extremity(outside of Kohsaka and Saki)that normal humans don't act like that.

And I'm saying that the personalities of Arima and Yukino are extremely similar to people I know as well.  People I know act like that and think like that.  Yes, Shibahime is a caricature, for example, but she's the 500th hamburger -- in much the same way that Kohsaka and Saki are the 500th hamburger for you.  For me, KareKano is as realistic as Genshiken is for you.

Quote from: LordKefka on December 15, 2007, 12:14:49 AMBokura Ga Ita.. kinda.

The thread started with Bokura ga Ita.

QuoteKGOR
KGNE.. maybe slightly

Sorry to be clueless, but what do those stand for?

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 15, 2007, 12:44:56 AM

Quote from: LordKefka on December 15, 2007, 12:14:49 AMBokura Ga Ita.. kinda.

The thread started with Bokura ga Ita.

QuoteKGOR
KGNE.. maybe slightly

Sorry to be clueless, but what do those stand for?

Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien and Kimagure Orange Road

Quote from: LordKefka on December 15, 2007, 12:50:56 AMKimagure Orange Road

Ah, I loved the music in that show.  I didn't recognize the abbreviation because I'm not used to seeing it with a "G" in there. 

By the way, has anybody seen something called "Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora"?  Is it any good?

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 15, 2007, 12:42:46 AM
[The third flip, which has not happened yet, is still something rather close to 50/50.  The first two flips, which already came up heads, have a 100% probability of being heads if we assume that we can't change the past.

And this has nothing to do with anything \o/ YAY.

QuoteAnd the "general air" that people notice is based a lot on where they're looking and what point of view they're coming from.

People's o[inions are based on the perspective, the actuallity isn't based on opinions though.

QuoteNo, similar people or different people -- the overall effect -- depends on the point of view being used.  What is more important, is shown to, or stands out more for the viewer.  In KareKano, the students in the school were commenting how much Yukino and Arima are alike and how much they just belong together.  The reader in the story is shown how much they're different.  In reality, humans are very complex, and general impressions depend on point of view.

Again, no. The opinions of similarities and differences are based on point of view, but the actuallity isn't. Yukino and Arima ARE similar people in end result, but extremely different in reasoning and understanding at the start of the story. Arima's entire view about life, and everything changes half way through the story, and they become incredibly similar. Realistically, they're not very similar at all at the beginning of the story, but based on appearances they SEEM similar.

QuoteYukino and Arima both have very positive outlooks on the world.

Stop right there. Now I know we didn't read/watch the same story. Arima HATED the world. He hated EVERYTHING the world represented, he hated Yukino for getting close to him, he hated himself for being weak, he hated his parents for leaving him, he hated all of his relatives, and his drive was to DEFEAT IT ALL. By beating everything completely, he would win. He despised everything about life, and multiple times wished he had died. How is that a "very positive outlook on the world".

QuoteFrom that point of view, I'd have to say that KareKano is about how people who are similar belong together.  On the other hand, earlier, you had said that KareKano is one of the shows that teach that opposites attract.  I think you're right about that too: Arima and Yukino are opposites in many ways as well.  Overall, KareKano is realistic partly because it does show that people are complex, and it's not as easy as saying that opposites attract or similar people belong together.

It portrayed emotions realistically(sorta...), but the characters and the events themselves were not. I've said that over and over again.

QuoteMy opinion is, in general, outside of specifics like exact magnitude of achievement, KareKano is more generally and emotionally realistic than Hana Yori Dango and about as realistic as Genshiken overall.  I do agree that, depending on the point of view, none of them are realistic, and all of them have some element of realism.  I did explicitly put in words saying things like KareKano is more realistic "for me".

PARTS of KareKano are realistic, as PARTS of Hana Yori Dango is realistc. but EVERYTHING about Genshiken outside of Kousaka and Saki ARE realistic. KareKano's story, the characters, and the events are unrealistic. The emotional portrayal was done pretty well, but the events that caused them are unrealistic. Hana Yori Dango's relationship was unrealistic, but the portrayals were pretty realistic. Both series as a whole, were very unrealistic.

Genshiken as a whole, is very realistic.

QuoteI'm saying that humans are very much alike, especially across first world countries, and at the same time, I doubt even twins raised together completely understand each other.  "Nothing" and "extremely minimal" are relative; I have visited 20 countries (including Japan and China), and whether anybody decides that humans are alike or different merely depends on where their limited focus is currently cast.  People can easily be right without the opposite opinions being wrong.  The world is very complex and vast and has room for very many points of view.

Your arguement comes down to "you can specifiy anything down to the exact", so my generalizations and ever changing meanings wins. It's a "you can't prove that god doesn't exist, so he exists" arguement.

QuoteIf we're talking generally rather than specifically, then specific details like whether it was 5 or 500 hamburgers just generally isn't important.  The point is that it's a lot of hamburgers.  The series can still be realistic in general.  When saying that this hamburger-eating anime scene isn't realistic, the person simply decided to concentrate on the fact that it was 500 hamburgers instead of 5.  When saying that this scene is realistic, the person decided to concentrate on the idea that this hungry person wolfed down a lot of hamburgers without regarding social convention, which is realistic.  "Realistic" depends on point of view.

It does matter, because that's what makes it real or not. The result is the same regardless, and that's the point of story telling, but the realism in the action isn't real because of the result. The action is either realistic or not, whether the result is or not. Their independent of each other.

QuoteSure they do.  Statistics change all the time.  That's why people are constantly taking them.  If nobody was murdered in Los Altos last year, then 0 people were murdered in Los Altos last year.  If, this year, one person murders someone else there, then 1 person was murdered in Los Altos this year.  The statistic has changed.  And, because we structured social probabilities on statistics (which is technically rather invalid), that means that the probability has changed.

The event changes the statistic though, not the probability of it happening before. You're not even arguing logicalally and saying IF A->B then A -> Giraffe

QuoteThat coin still has a head and a tail.  The coin hasn't grown.  Its health hasn't been influenced by pollution in the environment.  It hasn't met new coins, and it hasn't learned new things.  It has no perception of probability of its own.  It has no memory.  It also hasn't been put into different situations.  If you flip a coin into a funnel that has a slot at the end, the probability that it will land on its side goes up.  The probability of something happening within a changing and diverse environment is constantly changing.

What the hell are you arguing here? It doesn't even apply or make sense. You're basically just creating situations where you can go "NU-UH!"

QuoteThat's what I was saying about geeks and nerds.  It's realistic for people who concentrate that hard on their schoolwork and are so dedicated to their club activities.  It's not so improbable for people who figure out how to function within society but not have figured out how to function in an intimate relationship or what to do with the opposite sex.  It's realistic for a rival to end up as a best friend.  It seems realistic for a well-bred boy to wants sex and be ashamed/afraid about even thinking about doing it.  What's not realistic about their relationship or how it progressed?

I've explained it multiple times, and you addressed none of them.

QuoteHowever, statistics vary.  If one year, 51% of Texans went turkey hunting, but the next year, only 30% go, does that mean that an anime about Texans going turkey hunting is "realistic" one year but not the next?  Chances are that the people who lived through the 51% year are more likely to find the anime about turkey-hunting Texans to be realistic in general, while those who didn't are going to think of Texans going turkey hunting as less realistic in general.  Regardless, even if only 10% of Texans go turkey-hunting on Thanksgiving, an anime about turkey-hunting Texans can be considered realistic by a lot of people.

... You don't realize that it's not percentage... it's "likelihoods". But think about that. Look how huge of a jump 21% is. You'd have better luck citing something that constantly changes... like "fashion". In which... yes... it would be realistic if X character dressed a certain way 1 year, but unrealistic if she did a different year. If the character was highly fashionable, and written to be highly fashionable, but wore something really unfashionable... then it's unrealistic(LOL this happens in crappy ass Megatokyo all the time).

Quote"Realistic", as commonly used by lay people in normal speech, is merely a perception, not a theoretical probability.

Realistic is commonly used by lay people in normal speech for something that is unlikely to happen over likely to happen.

QuoteIf someone watches an anime and it pretty much tells the story of a segment of their life and many friends report the same experience, then trying to assert that the anime isn't realistic isn't going to work very well.  The situations match, the emotions match, the way events unfolded match, the reactions match, the decisions match, the conclusions match, etc.  OK, maybe it was 7 hamburgers instead of a shapeless mountain of hamburgers, but it's still a lot of hamburgers, and such tiny details just aren't important: the anime overall can still be realistic.

You can perceive anything to be realistic, if you exaggerate and misinterperate and over-compensate, but just because "YOU" think it's something doesn't make it that way. Perception means jack shit realistically(LOL see what I did there?). Tiny details are what make everything what they are. Details are what make something realistic or not.

"I walked 5 miles in the snow to get to school every day, and only had shorts and a t-shirt to wear. And we had 8 hours of homework every night, and I had to raise the cows all on my own." The point is that his life was harder than yours is portrayed, that doesn't make his story realistic.

Have you ever seen Big Fish? That's the entire premise of the story. You can see something as unrealistic and over the top, and still get meaning out of it, and the unrealisticness and over the top, is what makes the story interesting. But you should realize the difference between realistic and unrealistic.

QuoteSo, Genshiken is realistic because it's very similar to the people in the one club that it's based on.  Out of how many Japanese?  Millions?  Billions?  In the end, the idea that Genshiken is realistic or not seems to be very much colored by the viewer's experiences as well.

Not it's realistic because it's extremely realistic. Their actions and thought processes are very realistic within otaku circles. Their extremities, aren't extremities. That's how most otaku really are, and to that amount. The realism isn't changed just because some people don't believe that it's realistic... because the reality of the matter is... that it is. (see the "real" part of "realistic" is the same as "reality"). Opinions don't matter, I can think... Harry Potter is realistic, even though they're flying on brooms, shooting spells, and crap. And any non-stupid person would say "It's not realistic... there's people flying on brooms, shooting spells, and crap". Denial of reality does not make it realistic. It just means the person is dillusional and unaccepting of reality.

QuoteAnd I'm saying that the personalities of Arima and Yukino are extremely similar to people I know as well.  People I know act like that and think like that.  Yes, Shibahime is a caricature, for example, but she's the 500th hamburger -- in much the same way that Kohsaka and Saki are the 500th hamburger for you.  For me, KareKano is as realistic as Genshiken is for you.

No they aren't There are some similar traits to Arima and Yukino's, but their characters were made to be over the top and unrealistic. Arima's hatred for the world was masked perfectly. He was a horrible human being prior to Yukino shattering his mentallity. So you know people, that hate the world so  much, that they try their best to seem perfect(and succeed), and are trying this hard only to beat the reality they hate so much, to gain power over the world they hate. Not to mention it's impossible for this to be, because if you did know their secret, then it would destroy the illusion, thus making it all void. Catch-22, it'd be impossible for you to know someone like Arima.

LordKefka: STOP USING STUPID ABBREVIATIONS THAT NO ONE KNOWS.

Kimagure Orange Road normally if done like that is KOR. Most people call it Kimagure Orange Road though.

Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien is abbreviated KimiNozomu.

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 15, 2007, 01:11:57 AM
By the way, has anybody seen something called "Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora"?  Is it any good?

I watched part of it, but I never finished. It's pretty cute, somewhat slow-paced and mellow from what I saw... It's not that it's bad, but it's not extraordinary, either. It's really short, so you could finish it in a couple of hours. Characters weren't very dimensional, but they were cute. This is just my opinion, though, and I hadn't finished the series.

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 15, 2007, 01:46:35 AM

Quote from: Nyxyin on December 15, 2007, 12:42:46 AM
[The third flip, which has not happened yet, is still something rather close to 50/50.  The first two flips, which already came up heads, have a 100% probability of being heads if we assume that we can't change the past.

And this has nothing to do with anything \o/ YAY.

It doesn't, but you don't have to be such a jerk about it. >=(

And Kimagura Orange Road is commonly abbreviated as KOR, and in English fandom, Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien is commonly abbreviated as KGNE. KimiNozomu is the short title generally used by Japanese fans. When I saw "KGOR", I got confused too... because of that G. -Babbles on about abbreviations.- I can barely keep up with all the abbreviations in text messaging. -Slams fist on table.- =,(

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 15, 2007, 01:46:35 AMThe realism isn't changed just because some people don't believe that it's realistic... because the reality of the matter is... that it is. (see the "real" part of "realistic" is the same as "reality").

Reality hasn't changed because people don't think it's realistic.  However, you had defined "realistic" (and thus "realism") in such a way that reality -- what is actually real and what has actually happened -- isn't necessarily "realistic".

Because it's not. Flipping a coin 50 times in a row, and it being heads all 50 times is unrealistic. But it's happened before.

In reality, it is unrealistic for it to happen. Unrealistic != impossible. Unrealistic merely means "Very unlikely to happen, near impossible, goes against the logical run of events".

Quote from: PyronIkari on December 15, 2007, 01:46:35 AMKimi Ga Nozomu Eien is abbreviated KimiNozomu.

I usually see it as just "KimiNozo".

Does "Is" count? Because thats all I can think of for now

Quote from: JohnnyAR on December 16, 2007, 07:44:10 PM
Does "Is" count? Because thats all I can think of for now

'Twas suggested.

How many pages can one write about the probability of a series of coin flips being heads or tails?

Come on guys, this analogy has run its course.

On the topic of this post, the manga "Lament of the Lamb" (Japanese title, Hitsuji no Uta) is a compelling drama with some solid romantic elements, though if you can't handle high levels of angst, you might not be able to appreciate it (it's almost comical how the characters are always drawn frowning) but I definitely enjoyed it. And at only 7 volumes, it's reasonably easy to get the full thing (though it's just old enough to be left out of small manga sections in bookstores, so Amazon is the place to go). It might be lighter on "Romantic Drama" than some of the other series in this thread.

I'm also surprised that Saikano (Saishu Heiki Kanojo, or She, the Ultimate Weapon) hasn't been mentioned. It's a really depressing story but also a really good romance.

Quote from: mDuo13 on December 16, 2007, 08:25:17 PM
How many pages can one write about the probability of a series of coin flips being heads or tails?

Come on guys, this analogy has run its course.

On the topic of this post, the manga "Lament of the Lamb" (Japanese title, Hitsuji no Uta) is a compelling drama with some solid romantic elements, though if you can't handle high levels of angst, you might not be able to appreciate it (it's almost comical how the characters are always drawn frowning) but I definitely enjoyed it. And at only 7 volumes, it's reasonably easy to get the full thing (though it's just old enough to be left out of small manga sections in bookstores, so Amazon is the place to go). It might be lighter on "Romantic Drama" than some of the other series in this thread.

I'm also surprised that Saikano (Saishu Heiki Kanojo, or She, the Ultimate Weapon) hasn't been mentioned. It's a really depressing story but also a really good romance.

SaiKano actually was suggested, too. It was kind of far-fetched, and cheesy... but I enjoyed it when I was younger. I didn't like the anime series too much, but the movie was a little more entertaining. That's just my opinion, though. My high school boyfriend and I kept a journal together like in the series. Hahaha... so cheesy.