Quote from: LadyKaren
FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE-
We all know everyone has a thought on glomping.
We don't care.
Quote from: LadyKaren
So as much as you can talk about how to solve these problem and compare opinions , but it wont do anything at Con.
I just read this, and I just went, o___O!
I'm sorry, but does anyone agree with me, that this is (hopefully) untrue. If I'm not mistaken, Fanime's trademark line is "For the Fans, and By the Fans." If the fans have no say in solutions, then it's either false advertising, or just plain corruption.
I think the best way to do things is to discuss solutions, and the staff should always look to the fans for input rather than denying them any say in the matter. There are of course those who wish to gain brownie points with certain staff and promote the dissolution of any discussion, but I urge those people to actually think about if what they're doing helps the good of the con, or is just ass-kissing.
This:
Quote from: LadyKaren
Glomping and signs are a LEGAL ISSUE. With legal issues, we can't change anything.
And another thread to be locked.
Seriously, we need an official announcement made, locked, and stickied so that there'd be no more questions or debate on the topic.
By the fans, for the fans does not mean "We can break the law cause OMG it's teh funz"
That happens too often = no more Fanime. How would the fans feel about that?
Quote from: Moonblossom on February 23, 2008, 09:49:31 AM
By the fans, for the fans does not mean "We can break the law cause OMG it's teh funz"
That happens too often = no more Fanime. How would the fans feel about that?
Whoever said we were breaking the law. We were discussing solutions on how to fix the issue at hand.
We came up with informing people about the etiquette of glomping and signs both through fliers in the regular con handouts and through the television screens. What we should NOT do is ignore it, or else the glomping and sign issue will grow to be much more sinister, and end up in serious legal action or injury.
Quote from: Tony
Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.
Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.
I believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.
In terms of the whole glomping issue, and the staff supposedly not caring... is half true, for most. They don't care about the issue as to actually address it now, but the reason behind that is because in comparison to what they already have to do, it isn't important. Fanime staff already has a lot on their plate, and most of them are organized plans and procedures that actually need to get done to set up the con properly. But don't think I'm putting words into their mouthes; Fanime staff does care about the fans, but first they have to provide the fans with an adequate FanimeCon, before even considering to address every single issue, in this case, is smaller and inane in comparison to what they have to do as is.
The glomping issue isn't an organized concern that has any plan or discussion behind it, since... despite it being an actual problem, there honestly isn't much for staff to be able to realistically do. It's something that should be gradually changed by the people. Again, we've discussed how it SHOULD be common sense, and Fanime shouldn't even need to spend time and money to maintain it... so technically, it's our responsibility, and not theirs. It would help if they did, but ultimately, it's up to the people to actually listen. We could spread by word of mouth, reminding people to be polite and considerate, and promote some common sense. Eventually the trend of "glomping strangers ain't cool" will happen. Staff isn't here to baby us and teach us how to act in society. It'd just be convenient if we had some support in solving our own problems, but only if possible.
Not only that, but... there's already a rule against glomping. It's called law.
But I can at least say that a chunk that they're at least annoyed by it. Don't think of Lady Karen's post and locking the thread as "Us staffers don't give a damn about ur FanimeCon." She just felt that the discussion on the thread was stubborn and perpetually going in the same loop... and it was. You know all those things I've said to you? Yeah. I've repeated it like.... 20x, in all the glomp/glomp sign threads on this forum.
A'yup. :V
Quote from: Long on February 23, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Quote from: Tony
Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.
Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.
Thanks! But it wouldn't be arbitrary. To address your OP, we are indeed listening, but we are grounded in law; depending on your view, we are either enabled or restricted by that fact. Ultimately we have to make a decision, and of course those who are opposed to it will feel that they have been ignored. That's almost never the case; there are almost always other, bigger circumstances at play. This is one of them.
QuoteI believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.
Yes and no.
(Excuse me as I talk in metaphor here. I hate doing that, but it's a shortcut.)
There's the black and white part of the issue, and then there is the gray area.
The black-and-white portion is fully a legal issue. If you touch someone without their permission, you open yourself up to legal action by that person; if you go around with a "will have sex for money" sign, you open yourself up to legal action. That's it, end of story.
What you're talking about is the gray area, which is fully up to Fanime to enforce (or not) through the use of our member policies. After all, as a private event, we can mandate all sorts of crazy things to be a part of our convention.
[Personal opinion]
So, let's agree that the only issue in the gray are the signs. (Unwanted glomping is simply in the black, and consensual glomping is no one's business, simply in the white, and so is also a non-issue.) Again, the signs fall into black, white, and gray areas. Solicitation laws prevent the clearly black signs, so the only thing left are the white and the gray. I would put signs that are part of a cosplay (ex: Genma as panda) or are signage ("Bleach gathering here") in the white. The rest I would consider gray.
For signs that fall in the gray area, it's easier to disallow these on a subjective/case-by-case basis than to write out a precise policy and enforce it. It ends up being contradictory on some level anyway, and is overall just a waste of time.
What I'm saying is, we're pretty much covered already. If you want a policy, I would put it like this:
- Don't do anything illegal. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out. And arrested and/or sued.
- Don't do anything stupid. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out.
- We can kick you out for anything. Don't be surprised if you get kicked out. ;D
But don't be discouraged. We like our members. We don't kick people out lightly.
[/personal opinion]
Just my opinion.
Quote from: Tony on February 23, 2008, 11:46:41 AM
Quote from: Long on February 23, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Quote from: Tony
Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.
Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.
Thanks! But it wouldn't be arbitrary. To address your OP, we are indeed listening, but we are grounded in law; depending on your view, we are either enabled or restricted by that fact. Ultimately we have to make a decision, and of course those who are opposed to it will feel that they have been ignored. That's almost never the case; there are almost always other, bigger circumstances at play. This is one of them.
QuoteI believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.
Yes and no.
(Excuse me as I talk in metaphor here. I hate doing that, but it's a shortcut.)
There's the black and white part of the issue, and then there is the gray area.
The black-and-white portion is fully a legal issue. If you touch someone without their permission, you open yourself up to legal action by that person; if you go around with a "will have sex for money" sign, you open yourself up to legal action. That's it, end of story.
What you're talking about is the gray area, which is fully up to Fanime to enforce (or not) through the use of our member policies. After all, as a private event, we can mandate all sorts of crazy things to be a part of our convention.
[Personal opinion]
So, let's agree that the only issue in the gray are the signs. (Unwanted glomping is simply in the black, and consensual glomping is no one's business, simply in the white, and so is also a non-issue.) Again, the signs fall into black, white, and gray areas. Solicitation laws prevent the clearly black signs, so the only thing left are the white and the gray. I would put signs that are part of a cosplay (ex: Genma as panda) or are signage ("Bleach gathering here") in the white. The rest I would consider gray.
For signs that fall in the gray area, it's easier to disallow these on a subjective/case-by-case basis than to write out a precise policy and enforce it. It ends up being contradictory on some level anyway, and is overall just a waste of time.
What I'm saying is, we're pretty much covered already. If you want a policy, I would put it like this:
- Don't do anything illegal. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out. And arrested and/or sued.
- Don't do anything stupid. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out.
- We can kick you out for anything. Don't be surprised if you get kicked out. ;D
But don't be discouraged. We like our members. We don't kick people out lightly.
[/personal opinion]
Just my opinion.
That makes sense. It's the first clear thing I've heard about all this since it started. xD
What I was worried about was a mass ban on glomps and I wanted to make sure that wouldn't happen. Concensual glomping, as stated is no one's business, and I hope rules don't come into play either now or later that would impose upon that action. I'm satisfied. =B
I don't think anyone was ever suggesting a con-wide ban on physical contact. Just a reminder to lay off, ask first if it's someone you don't know, and a reminder that you can report things if they make you uncomfortable or hurt you.
Quote from: Moonblossom on February 23, 2008, 03:53:22 PM
I don't think anyone was ever suggesting a con-wide ban on physical contact. Just a reminder to lay off, ask first if it's someone you don't know, and a reminder that you can report things if they make you uncomfortable or hurt you.
I know no one was suggesting a con-wide ban on physical contact. My worry was that even if there was no ban, it could possibly escalate. For instance, if nothing is done about non-consensual glomping this year, and one or more people got injured and the con got sued, or something like that, in a rash bit of action, there might be those that impose such things like a con-wide ban on glomping. I just want to do all we could before it turns into something more sinister.
Quote from: Long on February 23, 2008, 02:00:09 PM
That makes sense. It's the first clear thing I've heard about all this since it started. xD
What I was worried about was a mass ban on glomps and I wanted to make sure that wouldn't happen. Concensual glomping, as stated is no one's business, and I hope rules don't come into play either now or later that would impose upon that action. I'm satisfied. =B
Hell, I'm just glad you read any of that rambling!
Tony, if the personal opinion you presented was official policy, or at least reasonably close to it, I can live with that as well. As long as we get these matters under control before some of us have to take matters into our own hands, that's all that matters.
Quote from: Long on February 23, 2008, 09:27:52 AM
Quote from: LadyKaren
FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE-
We all know everyone has a thought on glomping.
We don't care.
Quote from: LadyKaren
So as much as you can talk about how to solve these problem and compare opinions , but it wont do anything at Con.
I just read this, and I just went, o___O!
I'm sorry, but does anyone agree with me, that this is (hopefully) untrue. If I'm not mistaken, Fanime's trademark line is "For the Fans, and By the Fans." If the fans have no say in solutions, then it's either false advertising, or just plain corruption.
I think the best way to do things is to discuss solutions, and the staff should always look to the fans for input rather than denying them any say in the matter. There are of course those who wish to gain brownie points with certain staff and promote the dissolution of any discussion, but I urge those people to actually think about if what they're doing helps the good of the con, or is just ass-kissing.
Like it's been said before, there's no compromise on this issue since it's a legal matter, and as much as you can talk about how to find solutions, you're making more problems.
I'm not being mean here and saying we don't care, but when I get over 7 emails and PM's about people's feelings getting hurt regarding this issues and this shouldn't even be an issue, I need to get involved.
Now, like Tony said, we will announce this officially either on the site or elsewhere, but till then, please drop the issue or talk about it in the byob. You're scaring off the noobs.
I kind of feel how annoyed hearing about people rants and rambling about the issues and debates is for months. I feel ya, Lady Karen. Debates is like reading a very very bad argument paper.
if this is un called for or just kinda weird in this thread im sorry
but one of the reasons i have posted in these things and posted things debating the glomp and signs is just because there were several times when the thing was just brutatly atacked out in the open people posting threads that are so violently aposed its distressing so i think alot of people might be reacting to that like i did because its hard when a person just posts thing taht are untrue like i read several threads about signs being banned when they wernt and then a few threads about how bad glomping is but i agree with tony in the black white and grey areas
sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off
Quote from: LadyKaren on February 23, 2008, 09:16:56 PM
Quote from: Long on February 23, 2008, 09:27:52 AM
Quote from: LadyKaren
FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE-
We all know everyone has a thought on glomping.
We don't care.
Quote from: LadyKaren
So as much as you can talk about how to solve these problem and compare opinions , but it wont do anything at Con.
I just read this, and I just went, o___O!
I'm sorry, but does anyone agree with me, that this is (hopefully) untrue. If I'm not mistaken, Fanime's trademark line is "For the Fans, and By the Fans." If the fans have no say in solutions, then it's either false advertising, or just plain corruption.
I think the best way to do things is to discuss solutions, and the staff should always look to the fans for input rather than denying them any say in the matter. There are of course those who wish to gain brownie points with certain staff and promote the dissolution of any discussion, but I urge those people to actually think about if what they're doing helps the good of the con, or is just ass-kissing.
Like it's been said before, there's no compromise on this issue since it's a legal matter, and as much as you can talk about how to find solutions, you're making more problems.
I'm not being mean here and saying we don't care, but when I get over 7 emails and PM's about people's feelings getting hurt regarding this issues and this shouldn't even be an issue, I need to get involved.
Now, like Tony said, we will announce this officially either on the site or elsewhere, but till then, please drop the issue or talk about it in the byob. You're scaring off the noobs.
If there's a thread that has been solely used for debating and discussing and you don't want it in the General Discussion, can we please move them to the byob instead of locking them? That way, those who want to continue discussing it, can discuss it. And for those who don't want to deal with it, don't have to go into that thread if they don't wish.
Quote from: luckyends on February 24, 2008, 08:56:37 AM
if this is un called for or just kinda weird in this thread im sorry
but one of the reasons i have posted in these things and posted things debating the glomp and signs is just because there were several times when the thing was just brutatly atacked out in the open people posting threads that are so violently aposed its distressing so i think alot of people might be reacting to that like i did because its hard when a person just posts thing taht are untrue like i read several threads about signs being banned when they wernt and then a few threads about how bad glomping is but i agree with tony in the black white and grey areas
sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off
Wha? I had trouble reading this; most of your posts are pretty unclear.
But anyway, I think people are just defending the freedom to get away with things like being able to run up and hug strangers, wear signs that tell others to show them affection and gain the attention of strangers, being able to act ridiculously stupid to verify to themselves that they're "unique" and etc... and it's distressing because now, people have a problem with some of those issues and actually responded to them by telling them that it's actually wrong and destructive to many people who don't want to become casualties to these sorts of things. They're afraid of this sort of change at FanimeCon, and the way I see it, people there only act so freely because they already feel derailed from normal society, so they feel the freedom to abandon standard social guidelines and common courtesy in terms of respect for personal space-- that, or they're in a perpetual competition for attention...
But anyway, the thread on signs is a bit iffy. Several staff members we had talked to told us that signs ARE banned, many said they didn't know, and others said they weren't. So the thread wasn't made off a blatant lie, it was just a huge misunderstanding. In any case, the problems still exist whether or not anything is enforced, and it's the responsibility of the people to actually make any sort of positive change.
Quote from: Long on February 24, 2008, 10:09:51 AM
If there's a thread that has been solely used for debating and discussing and you don't want it in the General Discussion, can we please move them to the byob instead of locking them? That way, those who want to continue discussing it, can discuss it. And for those who don't want to deal with it, don't have to go into that thread if they don't wish.
The irony of it is, if you think about it. They're DISCOURAGING discussion. Anything that contains thought or opinions is banned on this forum outside of /b/ because people *GASP* get offended at opinions. I don't get why people can't share their opinions and views on something, and why someone else can't share their opinions and views on that persons opinions and views. It's not like we're talking about freedoms such as religion and politics, but things that actually apply and we have to go through at the convention.
Quote from: luckyends on February 24, 2008, 08:56:37 AM
sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off
I don't mind. This is how I felt (sorry about for the long post)
The glomp/sign issue is like people trying to banned drinking in general. Drinking makes the person drunk and do crazy/reckless things. So that means there will be a list of bad thing about drinking. There are many people will agree and disagree strongly and in the between. What happens? Debates happens. Did that solve anything. I felt like it resolved nothing and the government did not do sh*t. and you can't do anything about it. All we have is drink responsibly.
I feel like glomping/sign issue are the same: Glomping hurts people if they're not careful, signs may the sign of attention. We now have a list of bad things about those things. There are many people agree and disagree strongly and in the between. What happen here? Debates happens here and causing some stupid drama and misunderstanding. Will that solve anything? I don't know cuz it depends on the fanime officials tells us. So if nothing has changed. Then i think glomp/sign responsibly.
U wanna know wat else it reminds me when I see issues like this? Jack Thompsom trying to ban violent video games. I really can't stand him period.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: luckyends on February 24, 2008, 08:56:37 AM
sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off
I don't mind. This is how I felt (sorry about for the long post)
The glomp/sign issue is like people trying to banned drinking in general. Drinking makes the person drunk and do crazy/reckless things. So that means there will be a list of bad thing about drinking. There are many people will agree and disagree strongly and in the between. What happens? Debates happens. Did that solve anything. I felt like it resolved nothing and the government did not do sh*t. and you can't do anything about it. All we have is drink responsibly.
Wait wait... what?! I'm GENUINELY confused. How does that even compare?!
EDIT:
Same goes for... this.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:19:13 PMU wanna know wat else it reminds me when I see issues like this? Jack Thompsom trying to ban violent video games. I really can't stand him period.
Er, glomping actually causes physical harm and trauma to people, directly. In cases like Jack Thompson, that's just him blaming violence between kids and teens on playing videogames, and supposedly being influenced by them. He makes poor assumptions and puts the blame on them for absolutely no reason. People trying to ban glomping is just defending their rights to personal space and safety from physical harm!
Where do statements like these come from!?
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 24, 2008, 03:27:19 PM
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: luckyends on February 24, 2008, 08:56:37 AM
sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off
I don't mind. This is how I felt (sorry about for the long post)
The glomp/sign issue is like people trying to banned drinking in general. Drinking makes the person drunk and do crazy/reckless things. So that means there will be a list of bad thing about drinking. There are many people will agree and disagree strongly and in the between. What happens? Debates happens. Did that solve anything. I felt like it resolved nothing and the government did not do sh*t. and you can't do anything about it. All we have is drink responsibly.
Wait wait... what?! I'm GENUINELY confused. How does that even compare?!
eh...
You don't have to agree wit me. Cuz I thats how i
felt don't want to explain anymore.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:19:13 PM
I feel like glomping/sign issue are the same: Glomping hurts people if they're not careful, signs may the sign of attention. We now have a list of bad things about those things. There are many people agree and disagree strongly and in the between. What happen here? Debates happens here and causing some stupid drama and misunderstanding. Will that solve anything? I don't know cuz it depends on the fanime officials tells us. So if nothing has changed. Then i think glomp/sign responsibly.
U wanna know wat else it reminds me when I see issues like this? Jack Thompsom trying to ban violent video games. I believe he made himself like a total idiot kept on fighting over that! I felt like one of us might be fighting over pointless stuff like him.
I don't get how/why people keep making horrible comparisons that don't apply.
The difference between this is, that A -> B -> C. and A -> C here. Alcohol can lower inhibitions but it's still the responsibility of the person. Banning alcohol is trying to blame something else, not the person. Jack Thompson's ban on video games, same thing. It's putting the blame on B.
No one has said they should ban glomping, not even I. I've been saying people should be responsible with their actions. Why do I think people should ban signs? Because it's direct promotions. It's not an inhabition, or a hint. It's a statement.
Jack Thompson implies that, if you play violent games, you will act violently. This doesn't state. VIOLENT GAMES TELL YOU TO DO IT, AND TELL YOU THAT IT'S OKAY!". This is what signs do. It's a promotion and command that you should act a certain away.
Promoting people and telling them to act stupid, and saying that such action is okay, is what's going on.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 24, 2008, 03:30:03 PM
Quote from: my post on February 24, 2008, 03:19:13 PM
What i think:
I don't get how/why people keep making horrible comparisons that don't apply.
The difference between this is, that A -> B -> C. and A -> C here. Alcohol can lower inhibitions but it's still the responsibility of the person. Banning alcohol is trying to blame something else, not the person. Jack Thompson's ban on video games, same thing. It's putting the blame on B.
No one has said they should ban glomping, not even I. I've been saying people should be responsible with their actions. Why do I think people should ban signs? Because it's direct promotions. It's not an inhabition, or a hint. It's a statement.
Jack Thompson implies that, if you play violent games, you will act violently. This doesn't state. VIOLENT GAMES TELL YOU TO DO IT, AND TELL YOU THAT IT'S OKAY!". This is what signs do. It's a promotion and command that you should act a certain away.
Promoting people and telling them to act stupid, and saying that such action is okay, is what's going on.
Wow u did your studying really good. But I really don't care. Eh.... whatever.
It such a troublesome just to reply back.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:33:17 PM]Wow u did your studying really good. But I really don't care. Eh.... whatever.
It such a troublesome just to reply back.
THEN DON'T REPLY...
Why bother replying if you have absolutely nothing worth while to say only to make yourself look stupid? It's not that hard kids... if you don't have jack worth saying, then don't say it. If it's not going to contribute, explain something, show something, or accomplish anything, WHY BOTHER WASTING THE TIME OF NOT ONLY YOU, BUT THOSE READING IT.
Because then you ARE just being an idiot.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 24, 2008, 05:50:53 PM
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:33:17 PM]Wow u did your studying really good. But I really don't care. Eh.... whatever.
It such a troublesome just to reply back.
blah blah blah
Because then you ARE just being an idiot.
Because you ARE just being an smart ass! This is why you are troublesome. Even if I reply back to you start bringing more crap against me over my opinion! Coming from the guy who got claimed that sign banned was true. You make me laugh everytime u post!
This is my last post on this topic, and even if Mikey tries hundred fuckin ways of calling me stupid or insult me i'm just gonna ignore it cuz thats Mikey for you after reading all his post and its gonna waste my time. He'll just make himself look more dumb. Bye!
But I am gonna be aware of the sign/glomp issue.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 24, 2008, 03:30:03 PM
***SNIP***
Promoting people and telling them to act stupid, and saying that such action is okay, is what's going on.
Interesting.
Your solution is what for the Signage-People again?
You have stated that anyone Glomping you will get physically injured. Period, end of statement. Okay, but that's you.
What are you proposing again for Signage-People again? Banning them? Right.
Craige...
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 06:12:59 PM
Because you ARE just being an smart ass! This is why you are troublesome. Even if I reply back to you start bringing more crap against me over my opinion! Coming from the guy who got claimed that sign banned was true. You make me laugh everytime u post!
This is my last post on this topic, and even if Mikey tries hundred fuckin ways of calling me stupid or insult me i'm just gonna ignore it cuz thats Mikey for you after reading all his post and its gonna waste my time. He'll just make himself look more dumb. Bye!
But I am gonna be aware of the sign/glomp issue.
But what I say about your opinion applies and shows flaws in the logic of your opinion. So you get mad at people who point out how your opinion is stupid and doesn't make sense? Sorry kid, you're not perfect, your opinion isn't always perfect, so don't be suprised if people point that out.
QuoteInteresting.
Your solution is what for the Signage-People again?
You have stated that anyone Glomping you will get physically injured. Period, end of statement. Okay, but that's you.
What are you proposing again for Signage-People again? Banning them? Right.
Craige...
And what was the point of this?
If someone attacks me, they shouldn't be suprised if I react by back handing them in the face as soon as I feel them touching me.
Banning signs makes logical sense. For the most part, those signs have no reasonable basis for even existing anyways. I mean, there's millions of ways to whore yourself out and get attention. Signs just make it more apparent. And it's that apparency that causes idiots to flock and act like idiots.
Hey guys! Wats up wit this stupid essays? Especially Ikari's essay? My head hurts reading these things.
Quote from: Joecool1 on February 24, 2008, 10:33:37 PM
Hey guys! Wats up wit this stupid essays? Especially Ikari's essay? My head hurts reading these things.
Then don't read. Or respond. Thanks.
QuoteAnd what was the point of this?
If someone attacks me, they shouldn't be suprised if I react by back handing them in the face as soon as I feel them touching me.
Banning signs makes logical sense. For the most part, those signs have no reasonable basis for even existing anyways. I mean, there's millions of ways to whore yourself out and get attention. Signs just make it more apparent. And it's that apparency that causes idiots to flock and act like idiots.
The point of any communications PyronIkari in its finest form is debate, which is achieved by exchanging points of views, until the point has become dull.
You PyronIkari don't like Glompers. You have stated it clearly and if Glomped you will physically attack your Glomper. You've made that clear. I expect that you and I will be seeing each other when you are Glomped, you physically attack them back and somewhere along the line the Police Officers, who are working for the event get involved.
Therefore I sure that we can at that point can continue this delightful discussion in person, but frankly I highly doubt it's going to happen.
As for the Signage-People, your opinion is noted, you dislike anyone who has a sign or even uses one at the Fanime and you want them off the event space floor. Understood! The exact process for doing this is, what PyronIkari, how would you enforce this decree?
Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?
Craige...
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:44:10 AM
Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?
Craige...
No
Unwanted glompers: I won't resort to violence, but I won't hesitate to report them to the police either if Fanime won't do anything about them. If they want to glomp each other with permission, that's fine. They should leave everyone else alone unless they obtain express permission beforehand.
Sign-holders: I honestly wish Fanime would do something about them as well like other cons do. I understand that it's far down the list of priorities due to stretched resources, but this honestly was the seed of the whole matter. If Fanime did something about this a few years ago when it first started becoming evident, I doubt we'd have these kind of problems today.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:44:10 AM
Does anyone else on this thread wish to express the same opinion as PyronIkari?
Craige...
On glompers, neither I or PyronIkari would actually resort to violence
unless necessary, as in... not letting go and what have you. It is an issue attendees deal with, and people on the boards HAVE APPARENTLY already expressed similar opinions. Some have even said they've been injured, had their property damaged, and even violated. In some cases, I've seen glomping used as a distraction for stealing. No one so far has expressed interest on banning glomping, for reasons that have been repeated at least 20 times. The only efficient way to a solution is to make it known, whether by word of mouth or signs and announcements at the con. So far, despite it seeming like a neverending "battle", there have been people who have learned and become aware of the issues of glomping from threads on the boards, people who have improved and kept in mind that it's better to ask strangers, and glomp amongst friends.
As for banning signs, if a ban isn't possible... some regulation at least would be good. Many of those that carry signs don't actually wait for people to pass by them, rather, they follow people around and show them their signs and their instructions, instead. There had been at least 2 people last year that did the whole glomp-count thing that I encountered. They'd patrol the con, asking people to hug them and then sign a tally-- one of which asked politely, which seemed okay. Another, however, pestered other people with a group of friends around him, shouting "OMG HUG HIM SO WE CAN GET HUNDREDS OF COUNTS!!!" ... unless it was just the same person. Anyway, Fanime could at least confiscate inappropriate signs that imply exchanging anything to do with their bodies, and signs from people who abuse its attention. Banning it altogether would make it a lot easier, but if people don't agree with that, at least there should be a compromise.
Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.
It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:
Quote from: Long on February 25, 2008, 09:05:51 AM
Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.
It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:
Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 25, 2008, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Long on February 25, 2008, 09:05:51 AM
Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.
It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:
Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
That is the point of signs my dear. You wouldn't hold a sign if you wanted to be inconspicuous.
Quote from: Long on February 25, 2008, 09:16:58 AM
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 25, 2008, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Long on February 25, 2008, 09:05:51 AM
Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.
It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:
Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
That is the point of signs my dear. You wouldn't hold a sign if you wanted to be inconspicuous.
Key word is abuse. The purpose for signs are for attention, but for people to notice on their own and hug them when they pass by-- not for people to carry around a sign for an excuse to hug people who pass by them, follow them around, or shout at them, "HUG ME~!!". Anyway, the point of my post was to say it's legal for FanimeCon to put a ban on signs.
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 25, 2008, 09:28:46 AM
Quote from: Long on February 25, 2008, 09:16:58 AM
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 25, 2008, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Long on February 25, 2008, 09:05:51 AM
Holding a sign (that isn't whoring yourself out), and not following someone around with it is an expression of freedom of speech, and cannot be banned, by federal law. Anyone has the right to make any sign they want. What would happen if there was a protest on a campus about certain regulations or some such the campus had, and the people were all holding signs. The school can't say, "Signs are banned." and then proceed to take them away from anyone. If it's your paper, and your ideas or words, and is within legal limits of other laws, I see no reason why signs should be banned.
It's not against the law to attention whore. It may annoy people, but like we discussed earlier, fat otaku annoy me, but I don't think we should ban them. D:
Actually, FanimeCon is a private organization... so technically, they can ban signs. I'm all for freedom of speech, but signs specifically have become a problem by people abusing their purpose to bug others for attention.
That is the point of signs my dear. You wouldn't hold a sign if you wanted to be inconspicuous.
Anyway, the point of my post was to say it's legal for FanimeCon to put a ban on signs.
Yes, I realize that now. However, putting a ban on signs and therefore people's implied right at free speech which actually doesn't apply in this case, is just asking for trouble. People aren't going to be happy about it, and it might start a ruckus.
Okay, let me see if I've got this straight, Long and Jun-Watarase are on the opposite view of Signs issue, let's drop the Glompee vs. Glomper problem for the moment.
While Fanime is owned by ARG, we are renting a city owned facility, which means we're tenants at best, not the owners of the property. If they, the City dictates a standard of conduct, we would have to apply it to everyone, which in fact we do, the City says you can't smoke inside the building, because of health concerns, so you can't. The City says that you can't spray paint the walls inside the convention and we expect our attendees not to spray paint the walls. However, the City allows the freedom of expression of your thoughts, whether written or oral, thus, Fanime can't ban signage, per say, if those sign are not of an illegal nature.
--Side Track for a moment-- Now I find it funny that Fanime should post signs banning signage of any type and posting on the walls and pillars that we are instructing the sign people that they can't use. --Okay, back to hard stuff--
In any forum, such as Fanime, you will get people who use signs as a communications vehicle and follow all the suggestions made by those of their peer group and of course, you will get a few bad apples who insist upon pushing the envelope. However, in a free society, where there are two opposing views that are going to be clashes over an issue, our society has always found that fewer restriction will always work better than placing more restriction on our peer group.
As for doing a blanket wide ban vs. a selective ban, it is much tougher enforcing a selective ban, because the judgment is left up to the individual to decide and by taking the judgment out of the individual to enforce that policy and making a blanket, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Therefore it would seem that being flexible is a harder task to achieve than simply restricting everyone's rights to express themselves (legally, of course), which is what is referred to as the moral high ground.
Craige...
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 09:38:43 AM
Therefore it would seem that being flexible is a harder task to achieve than simply restricting everyone's rights to express themselves (legally, of course), which is what is referred to as the moral high ground.
Craige...
As said on one of my previous posts, "Banning it altogether would make it a lot easier, but if people don't agree with that, at least there should be a compromise." It would be a lot more difficult, but there are types of signs that should be dealt with, regardless, such as ones that imply any sort of prostitution or exchange for money illegally. Also, those who abuse the use of a sign to harass other people, if observed, should have some sort of intervention. In any case, it's complicated-- banning signs would be an inconvenience to a lot of people and restrict their rights to freedom of speech, but when the problem develops into something troublesome, a ban is the easier solution.
Exactly Jun!
I don't really care about signs except when the people carrying them are causing problems because of their actions
(unless the sign is obviously offensive-like asking for sex or other inappropriate contact). Following people around and bothering them, blocking walk ways, or covering helpful signs (like maps, cosplay locations) are the problem for me, not the signs themselves. This is something that can and should be reported. I don't think a sign ban would prevent this. People who want attention will just find some other way to do it.
Quote
As said on one of my previous posts, "Banning it altogether would make it a lot easier, but if people don't agree with that, at least there should be a compromise." It would be a lot more difficult, but there are types of signs that should be dealt with, regardless, such as ones that imply any sort of prostitution or exchange for money illegally. Also, those who abuse the use of a sign to harass other people, if observed, should have some sort of intervention. In any case, it's complicated-- banning signs would be an inconvenience to a lot of people and restrict their rights to freedom of speech, but when the problem develops into something troublesome, a ban is the easier solution.
Now we are down to the bare bones of the matter. It's the illegal signage that should be removed. Agreed. However, there are only a limited number of people who can take them away, legally, and that would be Rover/Safety staff, senior management and ARG personnel. If in my wanders around the floor, I observe such a sign, than I will be more than glad to remove any signage that promotes "prostitution or exchange for money illegally" and in fact I have done this, but there is a fine line between what is legal and illegal and unless it's over the grey line, I would feel comfortable doing it.
I'm sure that Rovers/Safety would be doing the same procedure too. Does that help?
Craige...
It's amusing how Craige is bringing up all this. I'd like to point out how many other cons have banned signs in almost the exact way I have stated, and they're doing fine. Sure, some people will get away with their signs, as con staff can't be everywhere and see everything, but a lot of cons put it in their rules, their websites, their newsletters, the programs book, and what not... and it DOES cut down and prevent the problem quite a bit.
It won't completely abolish the problem, but it will help, and isn't that the point?
Frankly, if Fanime doesn't want to do it, fine, I have no problem with that. It's not my convention, I'm not the chair, so it's not my decision. I'm merely presenting the idea, my views, and evidence to support it.
Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 25, 2008, 09:56:22 PM
It's amusing how Craige is bringing up all this. I'd like to point out how many other cons have banned signs in almost the exact way I have stated, and they're doing fine. Sure, some people will get away with their signs, as con staff can't be everywhere and see everything, but a lot of cons put it in their rules, their websites, their newsletters, the programs book, and what not... and it DOES cut down and prevent the problem quite a bit.
It won't completely abolish the problem, but it will help, and isn't that the point?
Frankly, if Fanime doesn't want to do it, fine, I have no problem with that. It's not my convention, I'm not the chair, so it's not my decision. I'm merely presenting the idea, my views, and evidence to support it.
Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.
Sound all cocky everyday, eh. Heh hyprocrites these days.
Quote from: Joecool1 on February 25, 2008, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 25, 2008, 09:56:22 PM
It's amusing how Craige is bringing up all this. I'd like to point out how many other cons have banned signs in almost the exact way I have stated, and they're doing fine. Sure, some people will get away with their signs, as con staff can't be everywhere and see everything, but a lot of cons put it in their rules, their websites, their newsletters, the programs book, and what not... and it DOES cut down and prevent the problem quite a bit.
It won't completely abolish the problem, but it will help, and isn't that the point?
Frankly, if Fanime doesn't want to do it, fine, I have no problem with that. It's not my convention, I'm not the chair, so it's not my decision. I'm merely presenting the idea, my views, and evidence to support it.
Craige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.
Sound all cocky everyday, eh. Heh hyprocrites these days.
Every single one of your posts have something negative to say about Pyron... but did you honestly need to make a new account to do so? Instead of hiding behind an anonymous account, how about you grow some balls and express your opinion with your actual identity. Otherwise, if you really have nothing to contribute other than stupid empty comments, don't post at all. kthxbai
I just came back from 4chan and I just had to be an ass! I just had to point it out to people while he had to be so negative towards other people. Heh! People who back him up! Very funny!
My name is Joseph btw. The most evil guy you're ever meet. I'm gonna go talk shit to other people if you don't want me to target you!
:/ Pyron is admittedly not my favourite person on the planet, and I am fond of Craige, but honestly Joe, you're just coming off as cowardly and immature here, not witty and badass. If you have a legitimate argument with something someone is saying, that's fine (as is Pyron's case), but you're just making stupid smart-ass remarks without and grounding here. It's childish, it's petty, and I doubt it's scaring anyone. I also doubt you're even remotely as bad as the most evil person I've ever met.
QuoteCraige, it'd be nice if you presented POV's and crap that actually apply. Debate is fine, as long as the content is still there. You're not providing that, you're just trying to sound like you're in a higher position and speaking as if a sophisticated more wordly tone actually means a damned thing.
Now who is personally attacking whom? However, your opinion is noted.
The point still being that you have pointed out the issue and as you have noted on other threads, that's what you do best, you are not a physically, hands on guy, who wants to do the dirty work, that what's best left up to Fanime to do. Okay. Your point is noted.
Where you and I part on this debate is it best to throw the baby out with the bath water. You say yes and I say no. You have told me everyone else is doing banning signs, therefore it is what is best for everyone, I say that doesn't make it right. You have noted that you are offended (and have said the alot of other people are too) and I say that of 10,000 plus people who attend, we are going to get a few bad eggs and yes, we need to be proactive (I happen to agree that to the Policy of Conduct needs to be created and message spread around), however, with less than 90 days to start of the convention, it would require a great deal of man power, resources and energy that are need, at this time to be pushing a variety of different areas in Fanime, such as programming.
Again, I've asked you to help, to get in there with both hands and help out, you've told me flat 'no', that's not your fortay. That leaves it us to do the dirty work and I doubt that this year we will have the manpower to do anything about it.
Craige...
Quote from: Tony on February 23, 2008, 11:46:41 AM
Quote from: Long on February 23, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Quote from: Tony
Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.
Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.
Thanks! But it wouldn't be arbitrary. To address your OP, we are indeed listening, but we are grounded in law; depending on your view, we are either enabled or restricted by that fact. Ultimately we have to make a decision, and of course those who are opposed to it will feel that they have been ignored. That's almost never the case; there are almost always other, bigger circumstances at play. This is one of them.
QuoteI believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.
Yes and no.
(Excuse me as I talk in metaphor here. I hate doing that, but it's a shortcut.)
There's the black and white part of the issue, and then there is the gray area.
The black-and-white portion is fully a legal issue. If you touch someone without their permission, you open yourself up to legal action by that person; if you go around with a "will have sex for money" sign, you open yourself up to legal action. That's it, end of story.
What you're talking about is the gray area, which is fully up to Fanime to enforce (or not) through the use of our member policies. After all, as a private event, we can mandate all sorts of crazy things to be a part of our convention.
[Personal opinion]
So, let's agree that the only issue in the gray are the signs. (Unwanted glomping is simply in the black, and consensual glomping is no one's business, simply in the white, and so is also a non-issue.) Again, the signs fall into black, white, and gray areas. Solicitation laws prevent the clearly black signs, so the only thing left are the white and the gray. I would put signs that are part of a cosplay (ex: Genma as panda) or are signage ("Bleach gathering here") in the white. The rest I would consider gray.
For signs that fall in the gray area, it's easier to disallow these on a subjective/case-by-case basis than to write out a precise policy and enforce it. It ends up being contradictory on some level anyway, and is overall just a waste of time.
What I'm saying is, we're pretty much covered already. If you want a policy, I would put it like this:
- Don't do anything illegal. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out. And arrested and/or sued.
- Don't do anything stupid. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out.
- We can kick you out for anything. Don't be surprised if you get kicked out. ;D
But don't be discouraged. We like our members. We don't kick people out lightly.
[/personal opinion]
Just my opinion.
yay tony! moderator extraordinaire! thank goodness for level headed mods.
Quote from: Moonblossom on February 26, 2008, 08:53:49 AM
:/ Pyron is admittedly not my favourite person on the planet, and I am fond of Craige, but honestly Joe, you're just coming off as cowardly and immature here, not witty and badass. If you have a legitimate argument with something someone is saying, that's fine (as is Pyron's case), but you're just making stupid smart-ass remarks without and grounding here. It's childish, it's petty, and I doubt it's scaring anyone. I also doubt you're even remotely as bad as the most evil person I've ever met.
Yes I am a coward I tend to run away like ninjas "OH SHIT SOMEONE FOUND ME!!"!! He makes smart-ass and I'm called smart-ass, hahahaha! Who the fuck is the REAL smart-ass? Now people is feeling sorry for him! *runs*
My real argument here is STFU!! Except for Craige since he has a word of wisdom. I agree wit Craige fully, and forgive me for being this evil!
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 26, 2008, 12:32:06 PM
...I happen to agree that to the Policy of Conduct needs to be created and message spread around), however, with less than 90 days to start of the convention, it would require a great deal of man power, resources and energy that are need, at this time to be pushing a variety of different areas in Fanime, such as programming...
Craige...
An idea then, if I may. Create a code of conduct and post it on the main site, and link to it when you send out the receipt to pick up pre-reg badges. Then, post the code of conduct by each line, so when people pick up their badges they'll have a chance to read over them.
Also, I go back to the TV screens idea. I know this all makes a bit more work for Fanime, and heck, at this point may not be possible for this year, but I'd like to think that's low work and could be accomplished in less than a day's time.
Perhaps that's just me being optimistic though.
I'm not even the only person on this forum that is saying these things though(there's a pretty large handful that don't care otherway, and there are more in support of being harsher on glompers and the such than those that aren't.
I don't even understand what you want me to do now, not post my opinion on the issue any more? You're basically saying you don't agree, and you don't want me to post my opinion anymore.
Quote from: Xeluu on February 26, 2008, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 26, 2008, 12:32:06 PM
...I happen to agree that to the Policy of Conduct needs to be created and message spread around), however, with less than 90 days to start of the convention, it would require a great deal of man power, resources and energy that are need, at this time to be pushing a variety of different areas in Fanime, such as programming...
Craige...
An idea then, if I may. Create a code of conduct and post it on the main site, and link to it when you send out the receipt to pick up pre-reg badges. Then, post the code of conduct by each line, so when people pick up their badges they'll have a chance to read over them.
Also, I go back to the TV screens idea. I know this all makes a bit more work for Fanime, and heck, at this point may not be possible for this year, but I'd like to think that's low work and could be accomplished in less than a day's time.
Perhaps that's just me being optimistic though.
Fanime has a Code of Conduct Policy and it has been printed in all the Program Books, but in the past there have not references to Glomping or Signage.
I see nothing wrong in what you are seeking, but that's never really been the real issue, it's the enforcement of the Code.
Craige...
So there seems to be two topics in this forum about the same thing (they started out different, but ended up being about the same thing). Please use the other post.
http://forums.fanime.com/index.php/topic,8890.0.html