Now that I have your attention, let's get a few ground rules clear...
I'm speaking for myself on this thread and not for ARG or FanimeCon.
What I'm saying should make it clear for everyone who is in either camp about what should be done with banning of Glomping or using signage.
There are legal laws covers certain aspects of Glomping, especially if the person getting Glomped doesn't want it. If you don't like physical contact, that is unwarranted, than you need to express yourself to the offending party, expecting everyone else to know what you like or don't like without verbal communications is just dumb.
Right about now, I can hear those voices on the forum who are offended saying "WTF!"
As for the Glomper, there are common society practices and rules that need to be observed and the failure to obtain verbal acceptance before Glomping the Glompee is disrespectful, rude and should be discouraged. In the simplest of term, you don't have the 'right' to make physical contact with someone else without their permission and that is the law.
If you think that physically attacking the Glomper back in the answer, that's going over the line and Glompee, not the Glomper is likely to end up in jail. Yes, if I Glomp the Glompee without any leaving any physical marks on the Glompee and the Glompee physically bruises the Glomper (round house kick to the face); you just might end up in jail. That's the law too.
Therefore if the Glompee and the Glomper agree, either through non-verbal or verbal communications that they wish to Glomp each other, than please proceed and enjoy the act of physical contact of each other.
Otherwise, don't do it... It's that simple.
As for signage...
Fanime Safety and ConOps are not the social conscious police for the convention nor for Glompee that is attacked by the Glomper. Neither should they should they be running around interfering with the attendees telling everyone that they are not allow to make physical contact with anyone else or they will be removed from the convention. They have better 'things' they need to be doing for the convention..
As for signage, it's quite clear (legally) what is to be allowed and not allowed without ARG or FanimeCon having to reinvent the wheel all over again. If you are in doubt, don't do it, if you offended, get over it, because again, FanimeCon Safety and ConOps have higher priorities than to be running around censoring or deciding what should be there and what shouldn't be there. If you have doubts, check with the San Jose Police Department.
Craige...
***Speaking as an attendee, not a member of the board or the convention.***
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 24, 2008, 10:31:12 AM
If you think that physically attacking the Glomper back in the answer, that's going over the line and Glompee, not the Glomper is likely to end up in jail. Yes, if I Glomp the Glompee without any leaving any physical marks on the Glompee and the Glompee physically bruises the Glomper (round house kick to the face); you just might end up in jail. That's the law too.
NOT TRUE AT ALL. It's based on the reactionary action. If someone runs and tackles you and your reaction is to turn and punch them in the face, then that is straight self-defense based on the reaction of getting attacked/touched unwantedly. There isn't a single judge who would see it any other way. However, if you get tackled you stop and look at the person and go "WHY DID YOU DO THAT" then punch the guy, then that is assault and it is illegal, because it is no longer self-defense, as the action has ended.
HOWEVER, if they glomp you, and they keep hugging you, and they WILL NOT LET GO even if you say to, and you punch them to get them off of you, that is not illegal.
Quote
As for signage, it's quite clear (legally) what is to be allowed and not allowed without ARG or FanimeCon having to reinvent the wheel all over again. If you are in doubt, don't do it, if you offended, get over it, because again, FanimeCon Safety and ConOps have higher priorities than to be running around censoring or deciding what should be there and what shouldn't be there. If you have doubts, check with the San Jose Police Department.
Craige...
***Speaking as an attendee, not a member of the board or the convention.***
And I said this before. You act like they have to actively walk around, reminding people, and calling it out. Roavers go around constantly just keeping an eye out for issues. They aren't going around REMNIDING PEOPLE WHAT AND WHAT NOT TO DO. Their jobs would be no different, it would just be that, they'd be looking for one more issue.
It's obviously an issue, and a lot of people don't like them. It causes a lot of problems, including fire hazards(seeing that even a staff member that had a Glomp me sign blocked a door way for like 10 minutes because a group of people decided to do so and no one could get pass them, and he wasn't doing his job checking for badges during this).
But hey... that isn't worth it.
lock? anywhere? please....
I'll take the word of this.
And please lock before there anymore debates.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:45:44 PM
I'll take the word of this.
And please lock before there anymore debates.
I know you might have a personal dislike for discussions, but... that's pretty retarded, if you ask me. Nothing really gets solved by ignoring a problem, but I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. Some things are meant to be discussed, and forums are to share information and discuss issues, especially ones relative to the organization the forum represents. Anyways, it's a real issue, and there's nothing wrong in pointing out a flaw in an announcement that the con-goers are supposed to assume is true. I've already contributed my opinion on the issue, so I won't get into it here, but I don't think that discussion on it warrants a lock on the thread.
... -_-; Eh, whatever.
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 24, 2008, 03:54:06 PM
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:45:44 PM
I'll take the word of this.
And please lock before there anymore debates.
I know you might have a personal dislike for discussions, but... that's pretty retarded, if you ask me. Nothing really gets solved by ignoring a problem, but I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. Some things are meant to be discussed, and forums are to share information and discuss issues, especially ones relative to the organization the forum represents. Anyways, it's a real issue, and there's nothing wrong in pointing out a flaw in an announcement that the con-goers are supposed to assume is true. I've already contributed my opinion on the issue, so I won't get into it here, but I don't think that discussion on it warrants a lock on the thread.
... -_-; Eh, whatever.
You don't have to point that much thank you very much by the fact that I am retarded.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:56:17 PM
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 24, 2008, 03:54:06 PM
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 03:45:44 PM
I'll take the word of this.
And please lock before there anymore debates.
I know you might have a personal dislike for discussions, but... that's pretty retarded, if you ask me. Nothing really gets solved by ignoring a problem, but I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. Some things are meant to be discussed, and forums are to share information and discuss issues, especially ones relative to the organization the forum represents. Anyways, it's a real issue, and there's nothing wrong in pointing out a flaw in an announcement that the con-goers are supposed to assume is true. I've already contributed my opinion on the issue, so I won't get into it here, but I don't think that discussion on it warrants a lock on the thread.
... -_-; Eh, whatever.
You don't have to point that much thank you very much by the fact that I am retarded.
Wha? I didn't say YOU were retarded. I just find avoiding discussion because you don't approve of it sort of ridiculous. If you interpret statements like these the way you do, then I do understand why you dislike them.
But it is an issue and a problem con-goers frequently encounter, and it should be discussed and addressed, rather than avoided because people disapprove of discussion. I agree that the direction the "debates" lead to are silly and redundant, since it's pretty much the same statements by both sides repeating over... and over... and over, but I hope for progress in the future. If FanimeCon can't take care of it, then it's the responsibility by the people who attend to regulate their own actions. Those people post on these forums, thus, I think if a discussion of some sort takes place, it shouldn't be locked.
I understand that it scares away some of the new forum members, and that it'd frustrate those moderating the forum by the constant tension and people's feelings getting hurt by some of the remarks made on people's posts, but it doesn't mean that discussion should stop because of this. Those who get upset from it have the choice not to read and participate.
I'm gonna leave this issue to the con not us. As long as me and my buddies can use the glomp/sign responsibly that will be fun. Why did I waste on posting my thought on that other thread. Heh I guess I'm just bored after all. My statement can sometimes be retarded to people anyways.
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 24, 2008, 04:11:54 PM
I'm gonna leave this issue to the con not us. As long as me and my buddies can use the glomp/sign responsibly that will be fun. Why did I waste on posting my thought on that other thread. Heh I guess I'm just bored after all. My statement can sometimes be retarded to people anyways.
Here here!
***Let me start out by saying that everything I express here and now are my personal opinions and having nothing to do with FanimeCon or ARG.***
My point PyronIkari still stands.
OniCourseMusha and Jun-Watarase, healthly debate is what made this country, even the name calling and if you don't believe me, read what our founding Fathers thought of each other when they were servicing in the First Congress. However, for the record, the Forum doesn't like it when you are disrespectful to the others on the forum (name calling, flaming, flame baiting, etc.), even when you disagree with them.
PyronIkari and I disagree all the time and neither of us have ever gotten into the gutter and started calling each other names.
PyronIkari, you've had bad experiences with Glompers and Signage-People. I loved that part of being tackling by someone; it's so over the top, I'm sure that you have personally been tackled dozens of times to the ground by Glomper who have had you in choke holds until you've passed out. It quite clear and evident by your posts that your dislike for these Glomper people is without recourse, the soon they disappear of the face of the Earth, the better. I on the other hand have had nothing but good experiences with them.
You want them removed or banned from Fanime by any means just as long as it gets done.
That's not going to happen without your help.
You cited an obscure incident with the Signage-People that I will be checking with the Head of ConOps about tomorrow. It did happen at FanimeCon, right?
More to the point you want Rovers and/or Safety to do the job of controlling or ejecting them from Fanime and that's just not going to happen without your help. If you have such a deep desire to have these people removed than you need to step up and do your part and stop complaining about it. Join the Rovers or Safety teams and go after them. Make a difference, no more complaining, whining about how bad Glompers and Signage-People are, stop citing issues that you are having with them, because you know as well as I do that no-one is going to do the job right, you need to do it personally.
You've stated openly that 'alot of people don't like them', than you shouldn't have a problem coming to a Fanime staff meeting, presenting your case to the Chair of the convention, citing your facts about how 'bad' these people are, getting his permission to form a group of devoted followers, personally training them on what they can legally do, additionally take your followers through FanimeCon Rover and/or Safety training classes and than actually working the convention instead of just attending it and getting this Glompers and Signage-People issue under control. Might I suggest a T-Shirt that ensures that everyone knows you and your followers are around, seriously, I would look toward a neutral Earth color, like brown, don't laugh, I'm serious, and it probably is not being used by either Rovers or Safety this year. You would stand out in a crowd, you would easily be identifiable to attendees and hell, I would even be willing to help make a donation to start the Brown Shirt Fund.
Remember either you are a solution to the problem or you are the problem.
Craige... ***These are my opinion and have nothing to do with ARG or Fanime***
I've stated this before, and I'll state it again.
I think it's pointless to argue back and forth, as so many people are doing right now. Why? Because in all likelihood you WON'T be changing the other person's opinion.
What I'd really like to see at this point is people proposing ideas to fix the issues which keep being brought up. Unwanted/unasked for glomping, and signs.
I, personally, don't have an issue with the sign bearers. I just ignore them, or snicker to myself about what the sign has said. I DO, however, stand for which signs Fanime has banned (Will Yaoi for Pocky, or similar) since they can get in big trouble for it. *shrug* That's my take, I don't care to argue it. If people don't like signs, what can we suggest to get rid of some of them?
For unwanted and unasked for glomping I see a more serious issue. I can't agree with the outright banning of glomps, since I'd be willing to be that for every unwanted glomp there are at least five more asked for glomps. (Note, I'm pulling those numbers out of thin air. That's just my guess.) What I'd like to see, is a code of conduct placed on the TV screens, and potentially in the little bag of handouts when you register or pick up your badge. I'm sure other people have even better ideas than I do, and I DO hate for Fanime to potentially have to pay for all that extra paper, hence why I suggested the TV screens.
NOTE: I will not be responding to Flamers, I've made my points on the argument, I'm sure many of them are not correct, but you won't be swaying me. Let's stop arguing and start DOING something about the problems.
(steps out of debate, sits in lawn chair, busts out the bon-bons, and enjoys)
{im out of this now, dramas bad for the soul}
Good Luck, both sides=)
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 24, 2008, 07:20:57 PM
PyronIkari, you've had bad experiences with Glompers and Signage-People. I loved that part of being tackling by someone; it's so over the top, I'm sure that you have personally been tackled dozens of times to the ground by Glomper who have had you in choke holds until you've passed out. It quite clear and evident by your posts that your dislike for these Glomper people is without recourse, the soon they disappear of the face of the Earth, the better. I on the other hand have had nothing but good experiences with them.
Frankly, it's based on the person. I've never said glomping should be banned, however people should have basic understandings of personal space and what not to do so. I don't care if people do it, it's when people do it unwantedly and unrespectfully. If a friend of mine does it, one that knows me and I know respects me to do it in an appropriate way, then that's fine. If a complete stranger does it to me when I'm not paying attention and talking to a friend of mine, that's a totally different story. Some people have very limited issues with personal space, and they don't care if completely strangers grope them... the majority are not the same. You think I'm wrong in stating that people should follow basic social rules?
As for signs, the issues is more about the results and mentallity behind them. People do that, to gain attention, and get things to happen in which they cannot obtain through realistic social ways. But that's personal choice. However, when issues like them gathering people in hall ways, when people are rolling around like idiots or chasing after each other and screaming and crawling on the floor... When people think it's okay to harass random passer byers with "DO YOU WANT POCKY, HERE TAKE MY POCKY, YOU HAVE TO TAKE MY POCKY!" or the reverse "GIVE ME POCKY, I WANT POCKY!!!!!!!" then there's a problem. When doors are being blocked, or people are falling over onto me then that's no longer just them having fun.
QuoteYou want them removed or banned from Fanime by any means just as long as it gets done.
Nope, I want people to just be semi-realistic and have basic social skills.
QuoteYou cited an obscure incident with the Signage-People that I will be checking with the Head of ConOps about tomorrow. It did happen at FanimeCon, right?
Obscure? I guess you don't get out much at cons with all the staff work you're doing, because it's hardly "obscure" to have things like this happen.
Quoterest of what PassingTheBuck says
Oh, but here's the issue with that. Instead of me trying to do things at a convention, I should spend my time telling people to have common sense? I'm *NOT* trying to make things better? There's more ways to make things "better" than physically enforcing it. I mean, isn't that the point of me posting and discussing it on these forums? I did bring it up at the meeting, just not during the main meeting. I brought it up with multiple staff members, and talked about reasons and what not.
The general concensus is that "Yeah, it is a problem, but there's very little that can be done". Which I agree with. It's hard to enforce something like that. The basic way would be to ban people carrying signs. But this is dependant on common sense. What about idiots that don't have this common sense(as was displayed in other threads with stupid questions). Then there's those that don't follow/read/listen to rules. It'd be quite a lot of work to enforce rules the con has written(or atleast this is what you are saying here).
So how am I trying to improve things? By making it known. By sharing my opinions with the general public, and hoping that by doing so they will share it with people they know. I can't change the entire convention, and prevent everyone from glomping random strangers, but I can get a handful of people to listen, and they might get others to do so.
My threads about glomping and discussion about it, GOT it brought up, and many of the people on this forum did listen. And they will think about it, and many will let their friends know about it(as many have said that they did and will).
I'm doing my part. What are you doing?
Butt hurt isn't he?
Quote from: Joecool1 on February 24, 2008, 10:37:46 PM
Butt hurt isn't he?
The hell?
On topic: I'm gonna come up some unique signs now (no hug me or glomp me signs) and get them approved.
Quote from: dibbly on February 24, 2008, 09:47:13 PM
(steps out of debate, sits in lawn chair, busts out the bon-bons, and enjoys)
{im out of this now, dramas bad for the soul}
Good Luck, both sides=)
-Pulls up a lawn chair and joins the viewing-
"Ah-yup! Best free entertainment around I tell you what." :D
QuoteI'm doing my part. What are you doing?
Getting involved with the conference while you are still standing at the side lines shouting at the parade as it goes by you.
You want everyone else to hear you, hence the reason you bring up the topic on the forum, however this is a limited platform for exchanging your opinion with others. You did state that you wanted 'these people' to become more semi-realistic and have basic social skills, than step up and do something about it. Offer to Programming that you will host a panel on it. Offer to work for Security/Rovers. Offer to work a web page on Glomping and Signage guidelines. Offer to ConOps that would do a training session on-the-floor for everyone at the event. You want to change this people, than you need to do it, but continually posting threads about your dislike and hatred of their activities isn't going far enough, because it's still happening.
Stop whining about it on this very limited forum and get out into the event itself and have a wider impact on this very important issue for you.
Oh yeah, nice side shot about me not getting out while at the con, that was actually funny. I'm sure ConOps found it funny too, but you wouldn't understand our inside joke on that one either.
Craige...
Quote from: G.I.R on February 25, 2008, 12:28:00 AM
Quote from: dibbly on February 24, 2008, 09:47:13 PM
(steps out of debate, sits in lawn chair, busts out the bon-bons, and enjoys)
{im out of this now, dramas bad for the soul}
Good Luck, both sides=)
-Pulls up a lawn chair and joins the viewing-
"Ah-yup! Best free entertainment around I tell you what." :D
-steps out of the debate.
"I'm done! Can I join ya? I got beer!"
Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 25, 2008, 12:38:37 AM
Quote from: G.I.R on February 25, 2008, 12:28:00 AM
Quote from: dibbly on February 24, 2008, 09:47:13 PM
(steps out of debate, sits in lawn chair, busts out the bon-bons, and enjoys)
{im out of this now, dramas bad for the soul}
Good Luck, both sides=)
-Pulls up a lawn chair and joins the viewing-
"Ah-yup! Best free entertainment around I tell you what." :D
-steps out of the debate.
"I'm done! Can I join ya? I got beer!"
Pfft who needs beer when you got some Captain
OK, so this topic is supposed to filled with serious conversation. Don't post in this topic unless you have something meaningful to say.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:29:17 AM
QuoteI'm doing my part. What are you doing?
Oh yeah, nice side shot about me not getting out while at the con, that was actually funny. I'm sure ConOps found it funny too, but you wouldn't understand our inside joke on that one either.
Craige...
how many miles you put on those tires? you go though like 3 sets for the Con right?
:: sits with two others on lawn chairs now watching anime on projector i brought::
Quote from: Akito Starwind on February 25, 2008, 07:28:51 AM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:29:17 AM
QuoteI'm doing my part. What are you doing?
Oh yeah, nice side shot about me not getting out while at the con, that was actually funny. I'm sure ConOps found it funny too, but you wouldn't understand our inside joke on that one either.
Craige...
how many miles you put on those tires? you go though like 3 sets for the Con right?
:: sits with two others on lawn chairs now watching anime on projector i brought::
A mod JUST said before your post to not fill the thread with meaningless jargon. Please.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:29:17 AM
QuoteI'm doing my part. What are you doing?
Getting involved with the conference while you are still standing at the side lines shouting at the parade as it goes by you.
You want everyone else to hear you, hence the reason you bring up the topic on the forum, however this is a limited platform for exchanging your opinion with others. You did state that you wanted 'these people' to become more semi-realistic and have basic social skills, than step up and do something about it. Offer to Programming that you will host a panel on it. Offer to work for Security/Rovers. Offer to work a web page on Glomping and Signage guidelines. Offer to ConOps that would do a training session on-the-floor for everyone at the event. You want to change this people, than you need to do it, but continually posting threads about your dislike and hatred of their activities isn't going far enough, because it's still happening.
Stop whining about it on this very limited forum and get out into the event itself and have a wider impact on this very important issue for you.
Oh yeah, nice side shot about me not getting out while at the con, that was actually funny. I'm sure ConOps found it funny too, but you wouldn't understand our inside joke on that one either.
Craige...
The reason why it wasn't brought up was because we were told it was already banned. But he's doing his part as a person that attends FanimeCon and is concerned by its issues. He posts on the forum, expressed his opinion, had others listen to it, and even got your attention. Just because a con-attendee wants a problem amongst other con-attendees solved, doesn't mean he necessarily wants to join staff; when you go to an event to have fun, and there's an issue with the people disrespecting each other while going... doesn't mean they'd join in to manage the event they went to have fun at.
Do you even care, or are you just posting this for the sake of disagreeing? You had easy access to bringing up the subject to others. It isn't complicated to let staff know that glomping has become an issue, and simply promoting respect for other people's safety would be a good improvement. It also isn't difficult to mention, "Oh yeah, confiscate inappropriate signs from people" and confiscate the signs that are obviously inappropriate, ie, not for all ages. I don't know how difficult it is to add the announcements to the PA once in a while, and having them up on screen, or adding them into pamphlets would be... but they seem simple enough. There's no need to host a panel on it and waste time since... why would anyone go to a panel about glomping? Not only that, but it wouldn't do much progress as it's a panel... during the convention itself. As for security/rovers, the two listed suggestions up there aren't much of a stretch. And last... that just wouldn't work. Even in doing all that, of course it would still happen, but at least there'd be improvement. None of these are big changes on staff duties, but they'd make a difference.
Quote
The reason why it wasn't brought up was because we were told it was already banned. But he's doing his part as a person that attends FanimeCon and is concerned by its issues. He posts on the forum, expressed his opinion, had others listen to it, and even got your attention. Just because a con-attendee wants a problem amongst other con-attendees solved, doesn't mean he necessarily wants to join staff; when you go to an event to have fun, and there's an issue with the people disrespecting each other while going... doesn't mean they'd join in to manage the event they went to have fun at.
Do you even care, or are you just posting this for the sake of disagreeing? You had easy access to bringing up the subject to others. It isn't complicated to let staff know that glomping has become an issue, and simply promoting respect for other people's safety would be a good improvement. It also isn't difficult to mention, "Oh yeah, confiscate inappropriate signs from people" and confiscate the signs that are obviously inappropriate, ie, not for all ages. I don't know how difficult it is to add the announcements to the PA once in a while, and having them up on screen, or adding them into pamphlets would be... but they seem simple enough. There's no need to host a panel on it and waste time since... why would anyone go to a panel about glomping? Not only that, but it wouldn't do much progress as it's a panel... during the convention itself. As for security/rovers, the two listed suggestions up there aren't much of a stretch. And last... that just wouldn't work. Even in doing all that, of course it would still happen, but at least there'd be improvement. None of these are big changes on staff duties, but they'd make a difference.
Interesting, do I care? Yeah, actually I do or otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to reply.
You want someone else to clean up the mess, but those who are the most vocal about it aren't willing to directly help out, but you will be the most critical of whatever action the Fanime takes to resolve the issue that they have pointed out.
Stop sitting on the side lines and get in there and help out. If, as you say, you are someone who wants to see this to end, than stop whining about it and take a proactive stance, join the staff and make a difference.
Glomping is not an issue for everyone, but for a select few on both sides of the coin. In fact you have given me the idea for a new thread... Thanks...
You made a few suggestions that frankly I've heard before:
You want Rovers/Safety to make the judgment calls on what should be allowed, and I'm speaking of the grey area, not the over the line stuff, and I agree that needs to be removed, but as you have pointed out, we have a very limited staff to do it, which is, as I have pointed out very tough to do in the most normal of times without your help. However you are expecting the ban to be effect, why? Because everyone will follow it, not unless you are willing to step up and join the staff and help out.
The only Public Address system is in the Exhibit Halls that we use.
You want Fanime to do the dirty work of making the judgment calls on what attendees will be allowed to do, legally we are speaking about here, which means that we need additional staff for those policies of enforcement and since you are so vocally about it, you need to join the staff and help us out.
Craige...
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:29:17 AM
Getting involved with the conference while you are still standing at the side lines shouting at the parade as it goes by you.
You want everyone else to hear you, hence the reason you bring up the topic on the forum, however this is a limited platform for exchanging your opinion with others. You did state that you wanted 'these people' to become more semi-realistic and have basic social skills, than step up and do something about it. Offer to Programming that you will host a panel on it. Offer to work for Security/Rovers. Offer to work a web page on Glomping and Signage guidelines. Offer to ConOps that would do a training session on-the-floor for everyone at the event. You want to change this people, than you need to do it, but continually posting threads about your dislike and hatred of their activities isn't going far enough, because it's still happening.
Stop whining about it on this very limited forum and get out into the event itself and have a wider impact on this very important issue for you.
Oh yeah, nice side shot about me not getting out while at the con, that was actually funny. I'm sure ConOps found it funny too, but you wouldn't understand our inside joke on that one either.
Craige...
Last I checked, I had the panel with the largest attendance at Fanime. Do you think I didn't bring it up, and don't plan to bring it up again this year?
Actually, I would understand the inside joke, unless you guys have multiple, but that's besides the point.
You make a lot of horrible assumptions, and act as if this is the only thing I'm doing. You're attacking me and what I'm doing, and you're trying to take the high road at the same time? Sorry, no, not gonna work like that. You staff, good for you. You do things behind the scenes, and you talk about things and do things through the con. I do things through the people, through panels, through forums... as an attendee. Besides, even if I followed your horrible advice of joining con-ops, I'd be upholding THE CON'S rules, not my opinion and thought about it. So wouldn't that be counter productive?
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 25, 2008, 09:49:10 PM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 25, 2008, 12:29:17 AM
Getting involved with the conference while you are still standing at the side lines shouting at the parade as it goes by you.
You want everyone else to hear you, hence the reason you bring up the topic on the forum, however this is a limited platform for exchanging your opinion with others. You did state that you wanted 'these people' to become more semi-realistic and have basic social skills, than step up and do something about it. Offer to Programming that you will host a panel on it. Offer to work for Security/Rovers. Offer to work a web page on Glomping and Signage guidelines. Offer to ConOps that would do a training session on-the-floor for everyone at the event. You want to change this people, than you need to do it, but continually posting threads about your dislike and hatred of their activities isn't going far enough, because it's still happening.
Stop whining about it on this very limited forum and get out into the event itself and have a wider impact on this very important issue for you.
Oh yeah, nice side shot about me not getting out while at the con, that was actually funny. I'm sure ConOps found it funny too, but you wouldn't understand our inside joke on that one either.
Craige...
Last I checked, I had the panel with the largest attendance at Fanime. Do you think I didn't bring it up, and don't plan to bring it up again this year?
Actually, I would understand the inside joke, unless you guys have multiple, but that's besides the point.
You make a lot of horrible assumptions, and act as if this is the only thing I'm doing. You're attacking me and what I'm doing, and you're trying to take the high road at the same time? Sorry, no, not gonna work like that. You staff, good for you. You do things behind the scenes, and you talk about things and do things through the con. I do things through the people, through panels, through forums... as an attendee. Besides, even if I followed your horrible advice of joining con-ops, I'd be upholding THE CON'S rules, not my opinion and thought about it. So wouldn't that be counter productive?
Or you could join Con-ops and use those awesome persuasive skills to convince them why your opinions and thoughts on the situation make sense. Maybe...
I didn't read the other thread, so forgive me if this was covered there, but...
I'm pretty sure I've read some rules in the program guide or some flyer in earlier years stating that solicitation is bad, but it was in a small font. I don't think most people bothered to read it. I remember there being a lot of rules and suggestions on the page (like asking cosplayers before taking pictures and waiting for autographing sessions to ask guests for their autographs), and while the rules are all just common courtesy, courtesy tends to not be common among otaku, and I think it's a bit hard for most people to remember them all.
I disagree with the suggestion that people join staff if they have a beef with glompers and sign-bearers. From where I'm sitting, it sounds like it's just begging for staff members who are most likely to abuse their authority. I also agree that I wouldn't bother to attend a panel that was going to just lecture at me about common courtesy. There should be too many other fun panels to attend.
However, flyering sounds like a good idea. It looks like it would cost a regular person $300 to ask Fanime to stuff flyers into the registration bag? http://www.fanime.com/professional/professional If enough people here think that glomping and signage is a problem, maybe someone can write up an ad to raise awareness of personal space, social etiquette, and laws related to signs, and then take up a collection to raise the $300 to pay for getting the ad stuffed into the registration bags? Or $100 for a 1/8 page ad in the program guide (although I don't think 1/8 page is enough space to address the issue). If it's written up and paid for as an ad, Fanime won't have to worry about costs or enforcement, right...?
I don't think it's practical or warranted for Fanime to try to enforce rules against signs and glomping beyond what the legal system requires. (I believe that people with signs advertising the exchange of goods and services are required to at least have a seller's permit, and some signs might violate panhandling and solicitation laws.) I think it'd be nice if Fanime did things to help raise awareness of the problem (like adding the information to those cute public service "please shower" cartoons in the program guides and on the TV monitors), but making such things into enforced rules beyond what the law requires strikes me as going too far.
Quote from: FanFicGuru on February 26, 2008, 12:34:47 AM
Or you could join Con-ops and use those awesome persuasive skills to convince them why your opinions and thoughts on the situation make sense. Maybe...
That wouldn't mean anything. If I joined con-ops I'd have a low position that basically sits at a desk and does whatever my higher up tells me to do. Chain of power, one that I don't want to fight through to get an opinion that matters. I'll make my opinion through another way.
Here's the thing. The ACML agrees with me(for those that don't know what that is, the ACML is the major mailing list where all the US cons and chairs and higher ups talk to each other and comment/discuss the state of conventions, ideas, problems, and so forth). Craige is on the side of "it's not an issue" but the majority of them have all spoken up against sign carriers and glompers. There's a fe that disagree, alongside Craige, but the majority all see it as a problem. This is why so many conventions HAVE banned signs, and are putting up stricter rules on glomping and what not.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 26, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Quote from: FanFicGuru on February 26, 2008, 12:34:47 AM
Or you could join Con-ops and use those awesome persuasive skills to convince them why your opinions and thoughts on the situation make sense. Maybe...
That wouldn't mean anything. If I joined con-ops I'd have a low position that basically sits at a desk and does whatever my higher up tells me to do. Chain of power, one that I don't want to fight through to get an opinion that matters. I'll make my opinion through another way.
Here's the thing. The ACML agrees with me(for those that don't know what that is, the ACML is the major mailing list where all the US cons and chairs and higher ups talk to each other and comment/discuss the state of conventions, ideas, problems, and so forth). Craige is on the side of "it's not an issue" but the majority of them have all spoken up against sign carriers and glompers. There's a fe that disagree, alongside Craige, but the majority all see it as a problem. This is why so many conventions HAVE banned signs, and are putting up stricter rules on glomping and what not.
Pyron- Just out of curiosity, do you know which cons have banned and/or set rules for glomping and signs and what these rules entail? I'm just wondering what may or may not be able to be adapted to Fanime.
I can point to Otakon being a very good example of this (http://board.otakon.com/index.php?showtopic=14226).
Actually, a better link: The actual policies page (http://www.otakon.com/policies.asp#signs)
Quote from: Stormfalcon on February 26, 2008, 08:47:45 AM
I can point to Otakon being a very good example of this (http://board.otakon.com/index.php?showtopic=14226).
Actually, a better link: The actual policies page (http://www.otakon.com/policies.asp#signs)
While I usually don't have a problem with the signs, I can see why they had to go to this policy. The problems seemed to be centered on the behavior of those carrying signs and the wide-spread use of "illegal" signs. I hope that Fanime goers can control themselves and not cause problems, but in the future, this sort of policy might have to be used simply because it's easier than trying to remove hundreds of signs or repremanding tons of people.
And I like their overall policy: If it's illegal outside the con, it's illegal inside the con
Quote
Last I checked, I had the panel with the largest attendance at Fanime. Do you think I didn't bring it up, and don't plan to bring it up again this year?
Actually, I would understand the inside joke, unless you guys have multiple, but that's besides the point.
You make a lot of horrible assumptions, and act as if this is the only thing I'm doing. You're attacking me and what I'm doing, and you're trying to take the high road at the same time? Sorry, no, not gonna work like that. You staff, good for you. You do things behind the scenes, and you talk about things and do things through the con. I do things through the people, through panels, through forums... as an attendee. Besides, even if I followed your horrible advice of joining con-ops, I'd be upholding THE CON'S rules, not my opinion and thought about it. So wouldn't that be counter productive?
If you have your panel, let me know the name, time and on which date and I'll be there, because I want to hear it.
I make no assumptions when it comes to you.
I'm not attacking you, I'm making a strong suggestion that you get more invovled in the inner workings of Fanime, instead of standing and pointing at the fire, I'm asking you to assist in putting it out.
Now my advise is horrible and of course that's just your opinion, which is what I will take it for.
You try and make the change from without and I'm doing my job from within.
Craige...
QuoteThat wouldn't mean anything. If I joined con-ops I'd have a low position that basically sits at a desk and does whatever my higher up tells me to do. Chain of power, one that I don't want to fight through to get an opinion that matters. I'll make my opinion through another way.
Here's the thing. The ACML agrees with me(for those that don't know what that is, the ACML is the major mailing list where all the US cons and chairs and higher ups talk to each other and comment/discuss the state of conventions, ideas, problems, and so forth). Craige is on the side of "it's not an issue" but the majority of them have all spoken up against sign carriers and glompers. There's a fe that disagree, alongside Craige, but the majority all see it as a problem. This is why so many conventions HAVE banned signs, and are putting up stricter rules on glomping and what not.
Chain of Power, what a concept!
The ACML group has as many way of handling it there are issues, including what you are proposing and what I'm proposing, so neither of us have the right solution for the other.
My, my, my, when did I ever say it wasn't a issue? Of course it's a issue. The question is how bad of an issue it is and how to handle it.
Your solution is to ban signs and enforce the 'no touch' rule.
Excellent ideas now make it work. Oh yeah, that wasn't part of your solution was it, you want Fanime to figure that out and make it work, but your investment is to let everyone know there is a problem and Fanime needs to do something about it.
I've asked you to join the team to get it under control, instead you continue to whine about the problem and suggest a 'Brown Shirt' blanket solution. Okay, we have all heard your suggestions.
Okay, we've heard you, you're done.
Since you don't want to be part of the physical solution, let those in the "Chain of Power" figure out where we are going to get the additional manpower to do it. Because in case you have figure it out, let me help you, Rovers/Safety is stretch really, really thin and what you are proposing will bury them in additional duties and a much higher demand on their time and energy. Don't worry yourself with the logistics of actually doing the work or getting all the moving parts to come together, you've done your job, you've pointed it out. Don't worry about the legal framework that would be necessary to change the policy, that's not your problem, you've point it out and told everyone on this forum about it.
You're concept of doing the job is pointing out the problem, as you see it. You've done it and now the real work continues for those in the "Chain of Power".
Thanks...
Craige...
I haven't attended Fanime before so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge about the attendee base for this con, but the other cons I go to I don't see these kinds of problems, with signs or glomping. At least not as rampant as everyone here is making it out to be.
The sign thing is actually pretty easy to enforce selectively. All you have to do is ban signs soliciting a service (I.E. prostitution). "Will XXX for XXX" is such a sign. There is no gray area on that kind of sign, end of story.
I work "security" (we're called yojimbo since we can't actually call ourselves security) for Kumoricon and I've never seen problems with signs before. We have the above type of stuff banned. I've never seen those problems at Sakura-con, either. And that is a much bigger convention than Kumoricon.
As for the whole glomping thing, I am curious as to how big of a problem it really is. Maybe Kumoricon and Sakura-con are different, but I don't hear a lot about this sort of thing with those two cons. In fact I personally have only ever seen 1 person glomp someone unknowingly and that was myself who got glomped...by a friend.
And as for the whole thing about changing things..honestly I agree with Craige. If you actually want these problems fixed then you need to do more than just point out that they are problems and give solutions on how to fix them. Not just say "ban signs" and whatever else. Get involved in the workings of the con if you really want something changed. I'm not saying join staff, but volunteer, go to meetings, do what you can to get things changed instead of just pointing out the problems.
I've been to fanime or the past 4 years. every year i go i haven't actually seen a problem. this is the first time I've heard of a problem. an annoyance yes, but I've neither seen nor heard of anyone reporting a problem glomper (which they should do). prostitution signs are illegal in general and should be handled when it happens. only once have i seen someone glomp and break a cosplayers costume. but she learned her lesson real quick. (the glompers reaction speed is AMAZING when they get a target. i didnt see her get up, i just heard her squeal)
only thing i can think to do to help the problem is report out of hand glompers.
im against banning signs i dont participate in the habit, but the sign (being legal) is their's to have and freedom to show.
sorry, no effective solution, but i'll do my part for the people, i love this con and i love it's people.
Quote from: Trumby on February 26, 2008, 05:57:08 PM
I haven't attended Fanime before so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge about the attendee base for this con, but the other cons I go to I don't see these kinds of problems, with signs or glomping. At least not as rampant as everyone here is making it out to be.
...
As for the whole glomping thing, I am curious as to how big of a problem it really is. Maybe Kumoricon and Sakura-con are different, but I don't hear a lot about this sort of thing with those two cons. In fact I personally have only ever seen 1 person glomp someone unknowingly and that was myself who got glomped...by a friend.
And as for the whole thing about changing things..honestly I agree with Craige. If you actually want these problems fixed then you need to do more than just point out that they are problems and give solutions on how to fix them. Not just say "ban signs" and whatever else. Get involved in the workings of the con if you really want something changed. I'm not saying join staff, but volunteer, go to meetings, do what you can to get things changed instead of just pointing out the problems.
I think glomping didn't used to be as big of a problem, but I think last year there were a couple groups which were consistently glomping without permission. I would have reported them, had I known that would have helped to solve the problem. I found it out after the fact when I went to ConOps to tell them that it seemed to be a problem this year. I will be reporting glompers next year. Perhaps not right away, and perhaps I'll try and judge on whether or not they seemed genuinely sorry and didn't know about the common courtesy thing, but who knows.
The only real thing I have a problem with a few people saying here, is the basic idea of "If you think there's a problem, join staff to help fix it". My problem here is that I feel like I shouldn't have to join staff or rovers, or whoever, to enjoy the Con. I'm more than willing to help out at events I like. (Ex: The game show had issues with the computer, so I was the scoreboard. YaoiCon bingo my sister and I have helped with the line multiple times by holding signs and sitting where we were told to in order to help point people to the end of the line.) So, I guess my only issue is the fact that I shouldn't have to staff or volunteer to enjoy my time at the Convention.
You really don't have to be staff or volunteer to enjoy the con. And if there seems to be a problem, you also don't need to be staff to fix it. But it does help, and attending meetings and talking to authoritative figures (nicely, w/o arguing) is always the best way to go to bring up issues and possibly change something for the better ["greater good"].
If signs, glomping, or whatever is bothering you during the con, just let a rover or staff know so they can handle the situation properly. Don't let it get to you so much that you don't enjoy yourself during FanimeCon. Its a huge convention center and there's always something to do.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 26, 2008, 12:14:20 PM
Chain of Power, what a concept!
Chain of power is time consuming and based on politics, not action or thought. Something I don't want to deal with or invest in.
QuoteThe ACML group has as many way of handling it there are issues, including what you are proposing and what I'm proposing, so neither of us have the right solution for the other.
And the majority of them agree with what I'm saying, which is why a lot of the major cons are doing it. You're right, there's many ways, but most of them disagree with you, and agree with a plan that is similar to mine.
QuoteMy, my, my, when did I ever say it wasn't a issue? Of course it's a issue. The question is how bad of an issue it is and how to handle it.
Your solution is to ban signs and enforce the 'no touch' rule.
Uh, when did I say a "no touch" rule? Multiple times I have said that "you can't ban glomping and shouldn't" but it should be apparent that people shouldn't do it without permission. This is kind of one of those things though. "Don't groap random people". "Don't kiss strangers". These are all basically the same idea. You can things you can do with friends and stuff that know you and are comfortable with it, but things you shouldn't do to strangers, unless they give you permission. So it should be enforced the same way. Con people SHOULD let it be known that people aren't allowed to do so, through the usual methods. The site, at registration it should be on the thing they sign, and it should be in the program guide along with the rest of the general rules. If someone does it, they can get in trouble/removed from the con if they do so. Can we expect everyone to get caught? No... but if they are, or if someone is reported, it should be dealt with just like any other kind of problem.
What other solution is there? The two base ideas are "do nothing and let people do whatever they want" which causes problems, or "try to do something about it to prevent some of these problems". Base right? Something should be done.
What can be done? Allow people that don't care to be allowed to do it amongst themselves, they don't hurt anyone, so let's let them be. Now the ones that do mind, they should be able to report it if it happens to them. If so, the person that does it gets punished for doing something they shouldn't do. That's usually what happens when people do things that are illegal/hurt/affect other people in negative ways directly.
A glomper is commiting battery, there's no way around it that it's against the law and problematic. They shouldn't be allowed to do it unless the person allows them, therefore the convention should realistically hold a rule to make sure they know it's not allowed(even though basic logic should tell them that).
QuoteExcellent ideas now make it work. Oh yeah, that wasn't part of your solution was it, you want Fanime to figure that out and make it work, but your investment is to let everyone know there is a problem and Fanime needs to do something about it.
I've asked you to join the team to get it under control, instead you continue to whine about the problem and suggest a 'Brown Shirt' blanket solution. Okay, we have all heard your suggestions.
I didn't? I talked about it quite a bit, and put up more than enough reasons of how to do it. YOU jumped back and said things like "it'd be illogical to have rovers walking around only to look for signs and take them from people, or waiting and banning glompers". Which of course it's realistic. It also had nothing to do with what I said nor what I presented as well.
QuoteOkay, we've heard you, you're done.
Since you don't want to be part of the physical solution, let those in the "Chain of Power" figure out where we are going to get the additional manpower to do it. Because in case you have figure it out, let me help you, Rovers/Safety is stretch really, really thin and what you are proposing will bury them in additional duties and a much higher demand on their time and energy. Don't worry yourself with the logistics of actually doing the work or getting all the moving parts to come together, you've done your job, you've pointed it out. Don't worry about the legal framework that would be necessary to change the policy, that's not your problem, you've point it out and told everyone on this forum about it.
You DON'T NEED ADDITIONAL MANPOWER. It's just one more thing that needs to be addressed. Rovers no longer just deal with lines, and fights, and thieves, now they deal with another problem, one of which they should be addressing anyways(the signs were always an issue with panhandling and prostitution, as well assault/battery were always a problem they've been dealing with anyways). See, you always go off on tangents that don't even apply, like you're trying to mock me as if you're extremely immature, and you think I'm a child that doesn't know anything. I know the basis and logistics behind it. I've presented the base ideas and how they would work. It's up to the chairs to decide on what to do, because no matter how much I do, or not matter how much I present, or even if I made a perfect plan that is flawless... it comes down to the con chairs to decide what to do. I'm not a con-chair.
You should start acting like one instead of just whining that someone on your forum is disagreeing with you and attempting to present reasoning and ideas as to how you can address this problem, and not retort with childish logic circles.
QuoteYou're concept of doing the job is pointing out the problem, as you see it. You've done it and now the real work continues for those in the "Chain of Power".
Thanks...
Craige...
Oh... not really. Because others still need to be made aware of it. You seem to not care about letting the public be aware of it.
PyronIkari, your feedback is noted.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck
Fanime has a Code of Conduct Policy and it has been printed in all the Program Books, but in the past there have not references to Glomping or Signage.
I see nothing wrong in what you are seeking, but that's never really been the real issue, it's the enforcement of the Code.
Craige...
That was posted in the other thread before it got locked, so I'll respond to it here.
Perhaps the problem last year was the fact that the program books weren't available during the Con, and I've heard the story behind it, and am not blaming Fanime in the least.
Perhaps something needs to be added to the code of conduct about glomping then? I'm not arguing either side on the signs issue, but was genuinely upset at the amount of unwanted glomping last year.
I still think it would be a good idea to post the code of conduct on the main Fanime page. And if it IS up there already, I apologize. I haven't gone hunting for it recently.
Quote from: Xeluu on February 27, 2008, 12:42:32 AM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck
Fanime has a Code of Conduct Policy and it has been printed in all the Program Books, but in the past there have not references to Glomping or Signage.
I see nothing wrong in what you are seeking, but that's never really been the real issue, it's the enforcement of the Code.
Craige...
That was posted in the other thread before it got locked, so I'll respond to it here.
Perhaps the problem last year was the fact that the program books weren't available during the Con, and I've heard the story behind it, and am not blaming Fanime in the least.
Perhaps something needs to be added to the code of conduct about glomping then? I'm not arguing either side on the signs issue, but was genuinely upset at the amount of unwanted glomping last year.
I still think it would be a good idea to post the code of conduct on the main Fanime page. And if it IS up there already, I apologize. I haven't gone hunting for it recently.
Hi Xeluu, yeah, you're right, it needs to be up on the web site and that's something I've passed along, hopefully in the near future.
i have been reading this thread and looking around on the forum boards for a while now and reading things and sorry to say i dont mean to be atacking a specific person but the thing that brought me into these debates was the fact that pyonikari posted a thread that was about signs being baned which was later to be noted untrue and also the fact that he posted a large post about how a viedo of glomps made by a girl who went around glomping people he said this was completly unaceptable
sry if that was kinda rambaly but im not good at typing but in defence for that video she showed (for the most part) the proper way to glomp some one which was to shout out there name giving them 10 seconds warning to tell her no and then glomped ( i was one of the people)
ok any way
so my points are i agree with the idea of having general rules posted on the TV and in the play book about glomping and signage because half the people at fanime arnt on the boards reading these posts are doing the glomping and signage so if you were to put a page in the book or a peice of paper or something on the TV about proper forms of conduct on those 2 subjects that would solve alot of problems
sorry if i made no contribution to this thread -_-
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 27, 2008, 09:42:39 AM
Hi Xeluu, yeah, you're right, it needs to be up on the web site and that's something I've passed along, hopefully in the near future.
That's all I can reasonably ask for. Thank you for taking it into consideration and forwarding it to the appropriate staff.
*bow*
Quote from: luckyends on February 27, 2008, 07:28:54 PM
...
sry if that was kinda rambaly but im not good at typing but in defence for that video she showed (for the most part) the proper way to glomp some one which was to shout out there name giving them 10 seconds warning to tell her no and then glomped ( i was one of the people)
...
sorry if i made no contribution to this thread -_-
The only thing I don't particularly agree with is the fact that you should just shout their name before glomping them. Just ask. It takes... what, five seconds? Makes everyone happier too.
And everyone has a right to say something on the boards (assuming it's not flaming), so your opinion is, in my opinion, a contribution.
Glomping is not a problem?
Some fat guy picked me up three time and didn't let me down. I almost hit my head on the floor.
Hard Gay is not for glomping, he's for taking pictures with, and the occasional UFO.
I found this extremely annoying last year, I'd just get tackled randomly.
I hope the rovers enforce this, because I'm more than willing to enforce this myself verbally in a firm non-HG style without any cursing with no regret.
No touch unless I let you. That right belongs to my friends, and no one else.
PS.
No, DON'T tell me it's because I'm Hard Gay that I deserved it, because I didn't harass anyone at the con without permission because I respected THEIR privacy.
I demand my respect in return, and that means no glomping.
Quote from: quantbits on February 28, 2008, 01:53:41 AM
Glomping is not a problem?
Some fat guy picked me up three time and didn't let me down. I almost hit my head on the floor.
Hard Gay is not for glomping, he's for taking pictures with, and the occasional UFO.
I found this extremely annoying last year, I'd just get tackled randomly.
I hope the rovers enforce this, because I'm more than willing to enforce this myself verbally in a firm non-HG style without any cursing with no regret.
No touch unless I let you. That right belongs to my friends, and no one else.
PS.
No, DON'T tell me it's because I'm Hard Gay that I deserved it, because I didn't harass anyone at the con without permission because I respected THEIR privacy.
I demand my respect in return, and that means no glomping.
Hi quantbits, sorry you have such a bad interaction with the Glompers, there are a few bad apples out there and yes, they need to be educated and my I suggest using a 'clue-by-four' and verbally telling them what they have done wrong. If that doesn't work, get their name, if you see a Rover/Safety patrol, let them know about it, if you don't see a partol, come to ConOps and make a report. If nothing else, get the name and badge number.
I agree with you that you have the right to not be physically abuse by someone 'glomping' you, especially if it creeps you out.
Craige...
Ah... enter "I am going to be respectable authoritarian figure mode".
Now we get into the issue of. Will the con actually do anything.
Here's how I see it. Let's say quantbits goes through the trouble of getting the persons name, and badge number by some how magically forcing them to give it to him. Now, he takes 10-20 minutes to go to con-ops, makes a report gives them the badge name and number.
What is the con going to do about it?
Essentially THIS is how it gets impossible for the con to enforce because there's no way the con can go "ALRIGHT, we will find person xxxxx with badge number yyyy and do something about it!" Unless the person does it like 10 times, and all 10 times the person is reported, it's a waste of time to even attempt to go look for the person.
Based on this, there is no threat to people that do it. Let's say He verbally warned this person "you can't do this, this is invasion of my privacy and battery blah blah blah blah". They'll just go "lighten up it's just part of the con spirit" and run off.
Hence why there needs to be an established rule on the matter made by the con and made aware. So if they do it you can go THIS IS AGAINST CON RULES... which carries a much stronger impact than "You shouldn't do this". A lot of people won't like it, but a lot of people won't like any rule that allows less freedoms. If the rule makes logical sense to prevent major problems though, they'll have to deal with it.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 28, 2008, 07:45:42 AM
I agree with you that you have the right to not be physically abuse by someone 'glomping' you, especially if it creeps you out.
Craige...
And that's the point a number of us were trying to get across over the course of a half-dozen threads or so. Some of us were feeling a lot of frustration, partly from the sense we were getting that FanimeCon wasn't taking the issue seriously at all and was content to leave it for the fans to sort out (of course, the other major source of frustration was from other posters who think it's perfectly a-okay to glomp people willy-nilly, permission or no, and wasn't about to take no for an answer). The problem with that approach is that you're going to get people deciding to resolve things their own way, to the point of repaying the glomp with their own act of violence in some cases. Unwanted glomping isn't good, and neither is attacking the glomper in retaliation. That's why Fanime needs to make it known that it takes the matter seriously, before the matter gets even more out of hand. Putting the code of conduct on the site (ideally linking it to registration to make sure people registering it at least give it a glance) and amending it to include matters like unwanted glomps and signs would be a good step, as would putting notices in the programs, overhead video screens, flyers, etc. I realize that rover staff is stretched as-is, but some awareness and action from them would be helpful.
Yes, this is coming down on the fun of some folks, but the problem is that their fun is making Fanime a lot less enjoyable for a number of people. People shouldn't have to worry if some random glomper is going to invade their space, make unwanted physical contact, or ruin their costume at any given moment. Consensual glomps are fine, no one has a problem with that (unless they somehow create a hazard of some sort). It's the unwanted ones that are the problem, and more and more people are wondering if anything is going to be done about them at all.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 28, 2008, 08:17:19 AM
Ah... enter "I am going to be respectable authoritarian figure mode".
Now we get into the issue of. Will the con actually do anything.
Here's how I see it. Let's say quantbits goes through the trouble of getting the persons name, and badge number by some how magically forcing them to give it to him. Now, he takes 10-20 minutes to go to con-ops, makes a report gives them the badge name and number.
What is the con going to do about it?
Essentially THIS is how it gets impossible for the con to enforce because there's no way the con can go "ALRIGHT, we will find person xxxxx with badge number yyyy and do something about it!" Unless the person does it like 10 times, and all 10 times the person is reported, it's a waste of time to even attempt to go look for the person.
Based on this, there is no threat to people that do it. Let's say He verbally warned this person "you can't do this, this is invasion of my privacy and battery blah blah blah blah". They'll just go "lighten up it's just part of the con spirit" and run off.
Hence why there needs to be an established rule on the matter made by the con and made aware. So if they do it you can go THIS IS AGAINST CON RULES... which carries a much stronger impact than "You shouldn't do this". A lot of people won't like it, but a lot of people won't like any rule that allows less freedoms. If the rule makes logical sense to prevent major problems though, they'll have to deal with it.
Your opinion is duly noted Pyronikari and I will pass your observations along to Staff.
As a side note, your knowledge of the inner works of FanimeCon is lacking. Rovers/Safety and senior management have the right to pull anyone's badge for misconduct, the notice has been on the back of the convention badges for a while and it's in the Program Book too. I've pulled badges in the past for a variety of reason (slapping a complete stranger, moving arcade equipment, stealing in the Dealer's Room, using the space between the escalators as a slide, etc.), I'll probably do it again this year. R/S has the ability to pull the offenders badge once the report has been given and they find the person, but they also may choice to warn the offender not to repeat it again or they will be ejected. More to the point, you mention that it's a waste of time reporting the offender, because the penalty wouldn't be great enough to make it worth while. As you can see, that just not true.
The Staff is working on getting the message out about being a good glomper vs being a bad glomper and what happens if you are a bad glomper.
Hi Stormfalcon
QuoteAnd that's the point a number of us were trying to get across over the course of a half-dozen threads or so. Some of us were feeling a lot of frustration, partly from the sense we were getting that FanimeCon wasn't taking the issue seriously at all and was content to leave it for the fans to sort out (of course, the other major source of frustration was from other posters who think it's perfectly a-okay to glomp people willy-nilly, permission or no, and wasn't about to take no for an answer). The problem with that approach is that you're going to get people deciding to resolve things their own way, to the point of repaying the glomp with their own act of violence in some cases. Unwanted glomping isn't good, and neither is attacking the glomper in retaliation. That's why Fanime needs to make it known that it takes the matter seriously, before the matter gets even more out of hand. Putting the code of conduct on the site (ideally linking it to registration to make sure people registering it at least give it a glance) and amending it to include matters like unwanted glomps and signs would be a good step, as would putting notices in the programs, overhead video screens, flyers, etc. I realize that rover staff is stretched as-is, but some awareness and action from them would be helpful.
Yes, this is coming down on the fun of some folks, but the problem is that their fun is making Fanime a lot less enjoyable for a number of people. People shouldn't have to worry if some random glomper is going to invade their space, make unwanted physical contact, or ruin their costume at any given moment. Consensual glomps are fine, no one has a problem with that (unless they somehow create a hazard of some sort). It's the unwanted ones that are the problem, and more and more people are wondering if anything is going to be done about them at all.
Okay, you are not going to see me disagree with you. In fact I do agree that the bad-Glompers need to remove from the rest of those who are good-Glompers. The staff is reviewing the rules and how to get the message out to the masses prior and At-Con. Certain staff and management personnel have the right to strip anyone of their badge and eject them from the property and we are not afraid to use it. As you mention, Rovers/Safety is going to be stretch when they are doing their normal duties and stop everyone who they see getting Glomp to inquiry if it was permitted would be overloading them. Hence the reason we need the attendees to step up and assist in ID'ing the bad-Glompers. Does that make sense?
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 28, 2008, 09:27:23 AM
Hi Stormfalcon
QuoteAnd that's the point a number of us were trying to get across over the course of a half-dozen threads or so. Some of us were feeling a lot of frustration, partly from the sense we were getting that FanimeCon wasn't taking the issue seriously at all and was content to leave it for the fans to sort out (of course, the other major source of frustration was from other posters who think it's perfectly a-okay to glomp people willy-nilly, permission or no, and wasn't about to take no for an answer). The problem with that approach is that you're going to get people deciding to resolve things their own way, to the point of repaying the glomp with their own act of violence in some cases. Unwanted glomping isn't good, and neither is attacking the glomper in retaliation. That's why Fanime needs to make it known that it takes the matter seriously, before the matter gets even more out of hand. Putting the code of conduct on the site (ideally linking it to registration to make sure people registering it at least give it a glance) and amending it to include matters like unwanted glomps and signs would be a good step, as would putting notices in the programs, overhead video screens, flyers, etc. I realize that rover staff is stretched as-is, but some awareness and action from them would be helpful.
Yes, this is coming down on the fun of some folks, but the problem is that their fun is making Fanime a lot less enjoyable for a number of people. People shouldn't have to worry if some random glomper is going to invade their space, make unwanted physical contact, or ruin their costume at any given moment. Consensual glomps are fine, no one has a problem with that (unless they somehow create a hazard of some sort). It's the unwanted ones that are the problem, and more and more people are wondering if anything is going to be done about them at all.
Okay, you are not going to see me disagree with you. In fact I do agree that the bad-Glompers need to remove from the rest of those who are good-Glompers. The staff is reviewing the rules and how to get the message out to the masses prior and At-Con. Certain staff and management personnel have the right to strip anyone of their badge and eject them from the property and we are not afraid to use it. As you mention, Rovers/Safety is going to be stretch when they are doing their normal duties and stop everyone who they see getting Glomp to inquiry if it was permitted would be overloading them. Hence the reason we need the attendees to step up and assist in ID'ing the bad-Glompers. Does that make sense?
Sure, I have no problem pointing out the unwanted glompers at all. I hope more and more attendees point out them out as well, in fact. I think we're finally getting to a more workable approach with what you outlined there, and I applaud that.
good to know I have a ally =). I doubt it'll come down to that... I'm pretty convincing when I need to be ;D
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 28, 2008, 07:45:42 AM
Quote from: quantbits on February 28, 2008, 01:53:41 AM
Glomping is not a problem?
Some fat guy picked me up three time and didn't let me down. I almost hit my head on the floor.
Hard Gay is not for glomping, he's for taking pictures with, and the occasional UFO.
I found this extremely annoying last year, I'd just get tackled randomly.
I hope the rovers enforce this, because I'm more than willing to enforce this myself verbally in a firm non-HG style without any cursing with no regret.
No touch unless I let you. That right belongs to my friends, and no one else.
PS.
No, DON'T tell me it's because I'm Hard Gay that I deserved it, because I didn't harass anyone at the con without permission because I respected THEIR privacy.
I demand my respect in return, and that means no glomping.
Hi quantbits, sorry you have such a bad interaction with the Glompers, there are a few bad apples out there and yes, they need to be educated and my I suggest using a 'clue-by-four' and verbally telling them what they have done wrong. If that doesn't work, get their name, if you see a Rover/Safety patrol, let them know about it, if you don't see a partol, come to ConOps and make a report. If nothing else, get the name and badge number.
I agree with you that you have the right to not be physically abuse by someone 'glomping' you, especially if it creeps you out.
Craige...
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 27, 2008, 09:42:39 AM
Quote from: Xeluu on February 27, 2008, 12:42:32 AM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck
I still think it would be a good idea to post the code of conduct on the main Fanime page. And if it IS up there already, I apologize. I haven't gone hunting for it recently.
Hi Xeluu, yeah, you're right, it needs to be up on the web site and that's something I've passed along, hopefully in the near future.
Someone want to give me said code of conduct so I can put it on the website?
Quote from: LadyKaren on February 28, 2008, 05:18:56 PM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on February 27, 2008, 09:42:39 AM
Quote from: Xeluu on February 27, 2008, 12:42:32 AM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck
I still think it would be a good idea to post the code of conduct on the main Fanime page. And if it IS up there already, I apologize. I haven't gone hunting for it recently.
Hi Xeluu, yeah, you're right, it needs to be up on the web site and that's something I've passed along, hopefully in the near future.
Someone want to give me said code of conduct so I can put it on the website?
Let's see.
I can write a 3 page essay about it... but what format did you want it?
Quote from: quantbits on February 29, 2008, 12:24:56 AM
Quote from: LadyKaren on February 28, 2008, 05:18:56 PM
Someone want to give me said code of conduct so I can put it on the website?
Let's see.
I can write a 3 page essay about it... but what format did you want it?
LadyKaren: It'll be emailed to you from the appropriate people. Let me remind you that the forums isn't the correct place to request said documents and that e-mails is probably the fastest way to get a reply.
Quantbits: Writing an essay doesn't help us out as it's not the official code of conduct and would only be your take on what it should be. ;)
Quote from: MPLe on February 29, 2008, 03:19:19 AM
Quantbits: Writing an essay doesn't help us out as it's not the official code of conduct and would only be your take on what it should be. ;)
Oh MPLe, my knees go weak when you take such forceful command of the situation... ;D <even when I do agree with you.> :D
Oh, I wasn't actualy going to write A essay.
I was using a figure of speech. ;D
Quote from: MPLe on February 29, 2008, 03:19:19 AM
Quote from: quantbits on February 29, 2008, 12:24:56 AM
Quote from: LadyKaren on February 28, 2008, 05:18:56 PM
Someone want to give me said code of conduct so I can put it on the website?
Let's see.
I can write a 3 page essay about it... but what format did you want it?
LadyKaren: It'll be emailed to you from the appropriate people. Let me remind you that the forums isn't the correct place to request said documents and that e-mails is probably the fastest way to get a reply.
Quantbits: Writing an essay doesn't help us out as it's not the official code of conduct and would only be your take on what it should be. ;)
Well, if they're going to be as hardcore as they were last year (and as they appeared to be), then glomping needs to be banned, and inappropriate glomping needs to be referred to the police for the assault it is.
Glomping Dont Really Need to Be Banned
All I Say is Be Curdious And Ask the Person Before
Glomping
I Was Kind Of Ticked Cause Of my Prop Getting Damage By Glomps
But Its A Persons Nature ^ ^
So Just Ask
Though, I'm not sure if this is official yet.
It was said in the last meeting that inappropriate signs that promote anything illegal, like soliciting, are prohibited. This includes "Glomp me", "Free hugs", "Hugs for Pocky", or anything similar, along with advertisements without a permit. They'll probably be dealt with on a case by case basis. Signs with jokes/funny phrases, cosplay relevance, prop, or information (gatherings, etc) should be okay.
Quote from: darkstar on March 08, 2008, 07:32:49 PM
Well, if they're going to be as hardcore as they were last year (and as they appeared to be), then glomping needs to be banned, and inappropriate glomping needs to be referred to the police for the assault it is.
I'm one of the loud, adamant anti-glomp people, and even I don't think it needs to be -entirely- banned. If two people are okay being the glomper and the glompee, that's fine with me, and I think everyone else on this side of the argument. It's only when it's done without consent that I think action needs to be taken.
It's kind of like anything to do with physical contact/sexuality. What you want to do with a willing partner is your business, just don't force it on others.
Quote from: Moonblossom on March 11, 2008, 11:15:36 AM
Quote from: darkstar on March 08, 2008, 07:32:49 PM
Well, if they're going to be as hardcore as they were last year (and as they appeared to be), then glomping needs to be banned, and inappropriate glomping needs to be referred to the police for the assault it is.
I'm one of the loud, adamant anti-glomp people, and even I don't think it needs to be -entirely- banned. If two people are okay being the glomper and the glompee, that's fine with me, and I think everyone else on this side of the argument. It's only when it's done without consent that I think action needs to be taken.
It's kind of like anything to do with physical contact/sexuality. What you want to do with a willing partner is your business, just don't force it on others.
It was also brought up at the last meeting. It constitutes sexual harassment to hug anyone unwantedly, or to even pursue asking them. Technically... asking them once is sexual harassment. Doing things like this are grounds for getting your badge pulled and getting removed from the con. For the most part, I don't think anyone is going to do anythng if they're cosplaying and you ask them, but if you pursue it and ask them multiple times, OR you ask multiple times, or ask random people... don't be suprised if you get your badge pulled...
that is if that 20 minute speech about sexual harassment and the such from the last meeting was understood correctly by me.
Asking for photographs, or taking people's photographs is okay, as long as you don't ask them anything like "Can you show more skin" or "do a more sexy pose" or something like that.
Basically, the convention is going to try harder to uphold the laws of the city/state. Randomly hugging people on the streets, holding signs of solicitation (even if it means giving away something for free... like hugs or the such) are against the rules, so don't do it, and tell people not to do them. Signs aren't banned, but a good majority of KINDS OF SIGNS are banned. Also, limitations on realistic usages, if signs are too big, to where they can cause a hazard or if signs are in poor taste, they are also banned.
Quote from: PyronIkari on February 26, 2008, 08:14:34 AMThe ACML agrees with me
The ACML is not a monolithic organization. Please do not speak for all of us.
Yes, glomping, signs, etc are problems at many, maybe most, cons. However, that's really an issue that a particular con's special operations/operations/security or whatever fun euphemism that con comes up with for people who keep the peace to decide. I can't take a decision one way or another since that's really a con specific problem. However, unless you are staff for a con, please do not speak for other staffers, or the larger community of said staffers.
Also, a general line of advice if you want to have a real positive effect on con policy, one way IS to join staff at many cons. Yes, there are cases where the head of a particular department might be stubborn and/or have other things going on, but only way to make sure something gets done is to DO it and that might involve some hard work on your part. But hard work builds character, when I was your age...
(seeing the post on the ACML made me miss fanime enough to poke around the forums. If it wasn't for ACen...)
Ah... Taiki. Irony much. Anyways, had you even read the thread you'd see my stance on staffing, and it's even funnier seeing that it's the general basis of FUKU... which is something you're part of isn't it? Or did they finally get fed up with you and ban you as well?
Quote from: PyronIkari on March 11, 2008, 09:27:51 PM
Ah... Taiki. Irony much. Anyways, had you even read the thread you'd see my stance on staffing, and it's even funnier seeing that it's the general basis of FUKU... which is something you're part of isn't it? Or did they finally get fed up with you and ban you as well?
I'm speaking in a general sense and that the way to solve problems isn't to go on to some webboard and act like a complete flaming jackass and start fights with the con staff.
What IS actually ironic is that you're actually displaying many key characteristics of being an F'ing Otaku. Being beligerant, pseudo intellectual, stubborn, etc. Really, the sign problem is the CON'S PROBLEM TO SOLVE. It's really a problem for the security dept to figure out. I'm not saying people shouldn't be saying anything negative about it, or that it's NOT a problem, I'm just saying that you should choose your fights far more wisely than this.
Quote from: taitai on March 11, 2008, 10:18:02 PM
I'm speaking in a general sense and that the way to solve problems isn't to go on to some webboard and act like a complete flaming jackass and start fights with the con staff.
What IS actually ironic is that you're actually displaying many key characteristics of being an F'ing Otaku. Being beligerant, pseudo intellectual, stubborn, etc. Really, the sign problem is the CON'S PROBLEM TO SOLVE. It's really a problem for the security dept to figure out. I'm not saying people shouldn't be saying anything negative about it, or that it's NOT a problem, I'm just saying that you should choose your fights far more wisely than this.
Hey Taiki... that's why I go to the Fanime meetings, bring it up, talk to staff members, and bring it up on the forum. Again, you didn't read this thread, or the other threads have you? And... pseudo? Tell me where i'm being "pseudo" in any of this, and state where what I say isn't based on actuallity. It's the security dept to decide what to do... which they did, but a lot of it has to do with people bringing it up, and making it an issue first to let them know that people are concerned, which is what I did.
And when I take advice from you about "choosing your fights more wisely" or... listening to any of your advice for that matter, is the day I admit defeat to the world and kill myself.
Quote from: taitai on March 11, 2008, 10:18:02 PM
Quote from: PyronIkari on March 11, 2008, 09:27:51 PM
Ah... Taiki. Irony much. Anyways, had you even read the thread you'd see my stance on staffing, and it's even funnier seeing that it's the general basis of FUKU... which is something you're part of isn't it? Or did they finally get fed up with you and ban you as well?
I'm speaking in a general sense and that the way to solve problems isn't to go on to some webboard and act like a complete flaming jackass and start fights with the con staff.
What IS actually ironic is that you're actually displaying many key characteristics of being an F'ing Otaku. Being beligerant, pseudo intellectual, stubborn, etc. Really, the sign problem is the CON'S PROBLEM TO SOLVE. It's really a problem for the security dept to figure out. I'm not saying people shouldn't be saying anything negative about it, or that it's NOT a problem, I'm just saying that you should choose your fights far more wisely than this.
Take your personal issue against Mikey elsewhere. Doesn't belong here.
Quote from: PyronIkari on March 11, 2008, 10:32:27 PM
Hey Taiki... that's why I go to the Fanime meetings, bring it up, talk to staff members, and bring it up on the forum. Again, you didn't read this thread, or the other threads have you? And... pseudo? Tell me where i'm being "pseudo" in any of this, and state where what I say isn't based on actuallity. It's the security dept to decide what to do... which they did, but a lot of it has to do with people bringing it up, and making it an issue first to let them know that people are concerned, which is what I did.
And when I take advice from you about "choosing your fights more wisely" or... listening to any of your advice for that matter, is the day I admit defeat to the world and kill myself.
Because stating "The ACML agrees with me" is such a horribly logically contructed statement that it almost made me fall over onto my fat ass. It's really an appeal to a higher power which doesn't make your statement true at all. Now, there's reasons why what your'e saying IS true, BUT you're using the way wrong line of reasoning. That's pseudo intellectual. Not to mention dragging the ACML into the discussion.
Saying you've seen it, and others have, doesn't really address the problem from any point to make a decision on. Enforcing those rules does take quite a bit of man power. Especially if you've got a real problem. It pulls security from their posts and reporting back to sec ops/con ops/wherever they go to report repeat offenders, it makes one more thing that door watching volunteers have to look for and unless it's *really* bad, like AKon 04 or Otakon 04/05 bad, it's generally not worth it to enforce with an iron fist. Is it worth it to ahve it on the books in case something happens? No doubt, but to enforce actively? Possibly not. This is why some cons just don't have sign/glomp policies. I can't imagine cons like Anime LA, Anime Vegas, or Ani-Magic trying to enforce that kind of rule. I know Anime Vegas has a policy on this because I helped out with it. But is it heavily enforced? No. There's simply not enough man power to do it for the reward.
Now as to picking your fights wisely, yes, I'm aware you've got friends in high places within Fanime's organization, but I thought it was generally common fucking sense to not pick fights with Board members on their own forums, no matter who your friends are.
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on March 11, 2008, 10:41:31 PM
Take your personal issue against Mikey elsewhere. Doesn't belong here.
The only problem I have is with the idea that someone can join the ACML and run around and act like it's THE final word on anything(or even that there's a hive mind like consensus on many issues when, there really isn't any), when it's not. Being a member of said ML, I really did feel the need to speak up about speaking for us all. It wasn't until Mikey brought up Fuku did I really even bother to think about taking it personally since, well, he brought it up.
Edit: yes, I have said in the past, "Join the ACML, you'll get some idea of how to run a con" which is true, because there are so many basic, ground level things that there is a consensus on, but when it gets into issues that are incredibly specific for a single con, then no, there's no absolute consensus. Making sure everyone has badges and properly doing head counting? Yeah, easily there's an established consensus there. How to handle crowds? Not so much.
Quote from: taitai on March 11, 2008, 11:11:25 PM
Because stating "The ACML agrees with me" is such a horribly logically contructed statement that it almost made me fall over onto my fat ass. It's really an appeal to a higher power which doesn't make your statement true at all. Now, there's reasons why what your'e saying IS true, BUT you're using the way wrong line of reasoning. That's pseudo intellectual. Not to mention dragging the ACML into the discussion.
Saying you've seen it, and others have, doesn't really address the problem from any point to make a decision on. Enforcing those rules does take quite a bit of man power. Especially if you've got a real problem. It pulls security from their posts and reporting back to sec ops/con ops/wherever they go to report repeat offenders, it makes one more thing that door watching volunteers have to look for and unless it's *really* bad, like AKon 04 or Otakon 04/05 bad, it's generally not worth it to enforce with an iron fist. Is it worth it to ahve it on the books in case something happens? No doubt, but to enforce actively? Possibly not. This is why some cons just don't have sign/glomp policies. I can't imagine cons like Anime LA, Anime Vegas, or Ani-Magic trying to enforce that kind of rule. I know Anime Vegas has a policy on this because I helped out with it. But is it heavily enforced? No. There's simply not enough man power to do it for the reward.
Now as to picking your fights wisely, yes, I'm aware you've got friends in high places within Fanime's organization, but I thought it was generally common fucking sense to not pick fights with Board members on their own forums, no matter who your friends are.
The only problem I have is with the idea that someone can join the ACML and run around and act like it's THE final word on anything(or even that there's a hive mind like consensus on many issues when, there really isn't any), when it's not. Being a member of said ML, I really did feel the need to speak up about speaking for us all. It wasn't until Mikey brought up Fuku did I really even bother to think about taking it personally since, well, he brought it up.
I merely stated that the majority of the ACML agrees that it is a problem, and they agree that the issue should be handled in that certain way.
Which... is true. You don't know what goes on at fanime, as you don't attend fanime, so who are you to say that the statement isn't applicable in said situations. I will argue with higher ups, or the chair, regardless of who my friends are if I see something as a problem, that should be addressed and they are refusing to acknowledge it, or I disagree with their views. THEY ARE FREE TO DISREGARD WHAT I SAY AND HANDLE THINGS HOWEVER THEY WANT, and I am fully aware of that. So again, what's your point? I attend fanime meetings, I observe what happens at fanime, and I make my judgments. All you are doing is arguing with me, based on one reference I used. Who said it was the final word or what not? I am arguing for the sake of the convention that I attend, and hope that it will make it a better place to attend. I show my support by running panels, helping with odd jobs and errands when people need me to, and by contributing as a member. I attend meeting, and give my opinion, raise up my thoughts and concerns, and allow them to decide whatever they wish to decide.
I am not telling people to boycott Fanime if they don't ban signs, and I'm neither forcing them, nor commanding them to do anything, I'm merely arguing a point.
So once more... where am I being a pseudo intellectual?
I brought up the ACML as a point of reference, and also explained the reasoning behind it, I didn't just state" THE ACML SAYS IT, SO IT IS TRUE!"
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on March 11, 2008, 10:41:31 PM
Take your personal issue against Mikey elsewhere. Doesn't belong here.
Mikey?!? ;D
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on March 12, 2008, 09:57:40 AM
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on March 11, 2008, 10:41:31 PM
Take your personal issue against Mikey elsewhere. Doesn't belong here.
Mikey?!? ;D
Nice to know that staff represents themselves on the forums
so maturely. =/
OK, stop replying to this post if you have nothing to add regarding the subject. Side conversations should be taken to Private Messages.
This goes for everyone.
i was wondering, is there any way to get official information from the higher ups or would one have to go to the meetings?
Walking around the con patrolling last year, several attendees did walk up to me and tell me of overaggressive and unwanted glomping. Those people were warned it is considered harassment and they seemed to acknowledge it (But I'm sure they just ran off, waited a little bit, and did it again). However, I know Rovers/SOS is pretty stretched cause we have maybe 10 staff per shift working the entire con at any one time with a couple support at base. We have 4-5 shifts and a whole bunch of events (Music Fest, Hentai nights, etc.), which leaves us pretty stretched for people. I worked almost the entire con straight last year just cause we really needed people out and about. If you want to help stem the problem a little bit, educating the attendees to report the badge numbers of the unwanted glompers go a long way. Cause that can get sent to those working the concourse from base and they can be on the lookout, and if they are caught doing it again, then more than likely can be removed since he/she is a repeat offender. Also, if you go to con-ops to file a report, it'd help too. I think a couple people were removed last year for sexual harassment after it was reported to con-ops and the guys were found.
But was SHE caught! The person who almost single handly started this whole Ban Glomp thing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8RxL8DLsEuc
Quote from: Mister_E on March 20, 2008, 08:06:55 AM
But was SHE caught! The person who almost single handly started this whole Ban Glomp thing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8RxL8DLsEuc
What's funny is that she probably has no idea about all the madness that has ensued behind the scenes and will no doubt return this year thinking that everything is fine.
Maybe Fanime staff should make it a point to let fans know that if they want to keep up with policies and the operation of the con all year round they should really visit the boards. I mean, it's probably been said before but most people probably dismiss it. As the rest of us have seen, however, the boards are pretty important in the structure and execution of the convention as far as fan-created elements go.
Quote from: dibbly on March 19, 2008, 05:12:45 PMis there any way to get official information from the higher ups or would one have to go to the meetings?
Apparently, the official information will eventually be placed in the official section of the web site when it's ready. Until that gets written up and posted, it's all hearsay, rumors, and ideas being tossed around. As has been demonstrated earlier, even going to meetings does not get you the final official information.
Quote from: Nyxyin on March 21, 2008, 12:54:16 AMAs has been demonstrated earlier, even going to meetings does not get you the final official information.
Official information will be posted by certain staff members. What was demonstrated earlier was unconfirmed rumors being passed off as facts and even then, it was corrected very quickly.
The proper staff members are gathering the rules and whatnot and it will be posted on the forums, website, and will be inside of the program guide.
If you can, it always helps to get the badge number. :)
Quote from: MPLe on March 21, 2008, 10:26:04 AMOfficial information will be posted by certain staff members.
Is there a list of the Official Authoritative People on the forums and what they're authoritative about? Obviously, the stars and "Moderator" status means people are authoritative, but PassingTheBuck must be pretty important too (or so I gather from his posts about hotel numbers), but he only has two stars and a status of "Inu-Posta".
Quote from: Nyxyin on March 21, 2008, 06:15:04 PMIs there a list of the Official Authoritative People on the forums and what they're authoritative about? Obviously, the stars and "Moderator" status means people are authoritative, but PassingTheBuck must be pretty important too (or so I gather from his posts about hotel numbers), but he only has two stars and a status of "Inu-Posta".
That's a loaded question, how important am I? :P One's ego could get inflated by ones attempting to describe how important they are to cause one not to be able to use a doorway, because one's head is over inflated. ::)
As the SIG states, I'm the Treasury of FanimeCon as well as the Comptroller (and the Chief Finacial Officer) for ARG, the parent company that owns FanimeCon. I am also part of the executive staff for FanimeCon for the past five years. You might say I have some knowledge of how Fanime works and do speak with a certain amount of authority when it comes to specific subject matters, such as Finance and Hotels, while I also have a passing knowledge of Facilities, Rovers/Safety/Security, ConOps, Tech, Publications, Programming and maybe one or two other subjects.
If I comment on something it's from almost 45 years of experiences in Science Ficition, Horror, Fantasy and Anime conventions and not from one or two local events, but literally hundreds of events that I've either attended or have works as a staffer. While I do speak for FanimeCon, I try to announce when it's my opinion and when it's coming out of my mouth as Staff. However, I don't often comment on a vareity of subjects, just because there are literally dozens of other people who have the knowledge and the authority to comment on it. Therefore I don't have a lot of posts and in fact last year I was a moderator and just didn't have the time nor the talent to properly devote to it and I was reduced in rank this year. MILTON - Did you have something to do with that?!?
Does that answer your question without it making me sounds like a doofus or an self absorbed a**hole? No one else can answer that question for her, especially you LadyKaren...
C.
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on March 21, 2008, 08:04:13 PMDoes that answer your question
Thanks for explaining your background. 45 years of convention experience is most impressive.
(Especially considering that the person who started the "How old is too old?" thread was worried about being "too old" at 24 years of age....) ;)That answers part of my question, but I was also trying to ask more generally for a list of authoritative people on the forums. I think it might help people judge the level of authority of various posters if there could be a sticky thread in which the official staff people could write similar introductions indicating what they do, how high up the chain they are (since those lower down on the chain have more people who can change the policies from under them, making what they say no longer true), and how much experience they have (which I tend to use as an indication of how likely it is that they'll run into unforeseen circumstances that force them to recant what they've said). It might clear up the confusion of who can say what.
It bothers me that people can randomly say that there's a ban on "all signs" or "anything that is a proposition" and have people believe them. Obviously, FanimeCon itself has to put up signs to point people in the right direction, and the dealers and art booths should be able to have signs advertising their products. At a minimum, there should be a clause allowing Fanime's own signs. And, just because banning signs might be in vogue with other anime conventions doesn't mean that the policy is a good idea, that it actually works, or that it will stand up to legal scrutiny if necessary. "Propositions" do not have solid enough legal definitions that anybody can ban "anything" that is one of them (and I believe that our country is still "dedicated to the
proposition that all men are created equal"). People can ban "prostitution", "sexual harassment", "advertising without a valid and verified California sales permit", "physical assault", "panhandling", "solicitation", etc., but a "proposition" would need to be more specifically defined, and proper policies should probably avoid using that particular word completely.
Quote from: Nyxyin on March 22, 2008, 03:21:32 AM
Quote from: PassingTheBuck on March 21, 2008, 08:04:13 PMDoes that answer your question
Thanks for explaining your background. 45 years of convention experience is most impressive.
(Especially considering that the person who started the "How old is too old?" thread was worried about being "too old" at 24 years of age....) ;)
That answers part of my question, but I was also trying to ask more generally for a list of authoritative people on the forums. I think it might help people judge the level of authority of various posters if there could be a sticky thread in which the official staff people could write similar introductions indicating what they do, how high up the chain they are (since those lower down on the chain have more people who can change the policies from under them, making what they say no longer true), and how much experience they have (which I tend to use as an indication of how likely it is that they'll run into unforeseen circumstances that force them to recant what they've said). It might clear up the confusion of who can say what.
It bothers me that people can randomly say that there's a ban on "all signs" or "anything that is a proposition" and have people believe them. Obviously, FanimeCon itself has to put up signs to point people in the right direction, and the dealers and art booths should be able to have signs advertising their products. At a minimum, there should be a clause allowing Fanime's own signs. And, just because banning signs might be in vogue with other anime conventions doesn't mean that the policy is a good idea, that it actually works, or that it will stand up to legal scrutiny if necessary. "Propositions" do not have solid enough legal definitions that anybody can ban "anything" that is one of them (and I believe that our country is still "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal"). People can ban "prostitution", "sexual harassment", "advertising without a valid and verified California sales permit", "physical assault", "panhandling", "solicitation", etc., but a "proposition" would need to be more specifically defined, and proper policies should probably avoid using that particular word completely.
WOW, that's a lot to think about, but to be honest, if the SIG has Chairman, Vice-Chair, Division or Head, they have the Authority to comment on the their field of specific knowledge or cross knowledge. That's about the best, for the time being, that we could offer to you. If the SIG is something other than one of those titles, you would have to use your judgement.
Sorry I'm new. What exactly is glomping and signage? I would appreciate a simple answer. Thanks
Quote from: migitlicious on March 24, 2008, 12:52:41 PM
Sorry I'm new. What exactly is glomping and signage? I would appreciate a simple answer. Thanks
Glomps are pretty much tackle-hugs. It's a form of showing affection excitedly. Unfortunately, people tend to "spread the love" to strangers that don't expect being tackled down and given hugs. It's fun within friends that enjoy it too.
Signs are typically pieces of cardboard or posters that attract some sort of attention to the person holding it. It became a problem when people started using them to beg other people for hugs, money for fictional reasons, and in some cases, prostitution.
Oh okay, thank you for the information. It will be my first fanime this year and I thought I should know these things before I go.
Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 25, 2008, 09:07:50 AMThere's no need to host a panel on it and waste time since... why would anyone go to a panel about glomping? Not only that, but it wouldn't do much progress as it's a panel... during the convention itself.
I stopped reading this thread on page 2. It started getting repetitive. Anyways people go to panel's about glomping if you offer them candy and if people have enough time to hear about it. Sac Anime host a con etiquette panel. They get a pretty good turn out too. Though Fanime is a pretty big con and I'm not sure how appropriate it would be since it's not really seen as a beginners con like the Sacramento conventions.
Anyways that's my two cents.