Messages

I'm not addressing every single point you make because arguing why cartoon child pornography is inappropriate is not a difficult argument to make...except to people who are so immersed in Internet culture that they have become disconnected from real life society. But those people will never change their mind, so I'm not going to waste my effort.

Either Fanime will take action or it won't. I'm not going to spend too much time trying to change things when I can just not go. But I figure there are many people who agree with me, so I'm throwing the idea out there.

Look, I already said the back-and-forth isn't going to change anything. If you approve of pedophilia I'm not going to change your mind.

I personally believe Fanime should not include child pornography in its celebration of anime and manga. Fanime, by approving the pedophilia that is sold and promoted in its convention, vicariously promotes it, and it shouldn't. That's obviously my standard and it's not shared by everyone. Am I arguing that my standard should be imposed on everyone else at the convention?

Yes.

Go cry me a river because I oppose child pornography and object to my city's anime convention supporting it.

I didn't know about the loli panel Fanime pulled. I'm glad they changed their mind about that.

There's still more to be done, though. Like I said, I don't expect changes overnight. Fanime can start small. Like banning shota and loli porn altogether.

I'd support a system that blacklists certain people/companies, but I also recognize the danger that comes with blacklisting based on judgment calls. Still, Fanime could do more to end the widespread presence of pedophilia at the convention.

Yes, I agree that it's a difficult issue to tackle without going overboard. There should be some standards and oversight, even if the policy is based on a case-by-case basis in which Fanime offers an open door to complaints which it can then investigate.

I'm thinking it could be like the bootleg policy. The standards are there to create an atmosphere that disapproves of bootlegging. But is it totally enforced? No, because that would be impossible. But Fanime encourages attendees to find staff if they suspect a product is bootlegged or otherwise infringes on an IP, then the staff member investigates. And if a vendor is caught bootlegging there are consequences.

Why can't Fanime take that approach with pedophilia? I'll concede that some porn simply has petite adults, and I'm not saying that shouldn't be allowed. But vendors and artists and panels should not be allowed to promote and sell content that is explicitly sexual regarding children. If there is a shota or loli manga that clearly identifies a child engaging in sex with an adult (i.e., being raped), staff should be receptive to complaints and follow through with consequences for the vendor/artist/panel.

Because Fanime is not the place to celebrate child rape fetishes.

Of course, there are going to be extremely ambiguous situations, which have been discussed in this topic already. But such ambiguity should not be used as an excuse to neglect standards. Simply setting the standards and enforcing them on a case-by-case basis creates an atmosphere of safety and respect regarding children and intolerance toward child rape fetishes.

It wouldn't change things overnight, but I think it would be a step in the right direction...which is sorely needed in the anime/manga/Internet realm.

This back-and-forth obviously isn't going to change either of our opinions, so there's no point in continuing it.

If Fanime wants to promote pedophilia, it should keep the code of conduct as it is. If Fanime does not want to promote pedophilia, it should change it. I personally won't be returning unless (at the very least) Fanime stops promoting child rape in manga and anime.

That can be said at every anime convention. It's not the fault of the artists or animation companies to regulate their forms of entertainment. That's the way anime culture is nowadays.

That's exactly my point. We shouldn't tolerate it. We should object to it. Other anime conventions are wrong for promoting child sexualization as well. If I attended other conventions I would raise a stink there. But I don't, so I'm starting with Fanime.

But we should hold the artists and animation companies accountable. They're the one perpetuating the sexualization of children. If it doesn't stop with them, who does it stop with? Or are you saying if the market demands the product then the product is justified?

They can create what they want, but they shouldn't be allowed to bring it to Fanime. It sullies the rest of the genre.

Also, I do understand the point that it's better for pedophiles to get their rocks off to cartoons than to engage in actual violence against children. I think that's a valid point (and one I have actually maintained for years in defense of protecting the rights of people to fictionalize child molestation).

But that's a separate issue. Fanime's purpose is not to be a support group for pedophiles or to provide them with that safe outlet. Fanime's purpose is to celebrate anime. Does Fanime want to be known as the place pedophiles should go to get their child porn fix?

I object to making fictionalized sexual depictions of children illegal. I never suggested they should be illegal. Freedom of speech and all that.

What I am saying is that Fanime should not allow itself to be used to promote pedophilia. If someone wants to masturbate to children, he can stay in the dark corners of the Internet. Fanime should not be an open place for pedophiles to creep out of the woodwork and fantasize about violating children.

For some reason, most attendees seem totally okay with this. I think the reason for that is there is a long history of anime (and, really, the Internet in general) being so strange that people will tolerate anything. But fantasizing about childrape is definitely over the line. The Fanime organizers should respect that line and acknowledge that pedophilia is not acceptable for their event.

By that logic, fanfiction doesn't resemble real life because there are no pictures to show 100% accuracy.

The cartoons represent humans. Anime girls and boys represent human children. To represent them sexually (either visually or simply in writing) is to represent children sexually.

I don't understand how arguments to the contrary could possibly hold up, considering the plotlines of things like shota involve the child condition (innocence, dependence on adults, underdeveloped sexuality, naivete, etc.). It's total wish fulfillment.

As for media such as anime, manga, artwork, etc etc..  That's more vague.  I mean for one thing, how do you enforce that?  Yes there are series which explicitly sexualize children and the characters are stated as children, However they're rather unrealistic depictions, and then you have characters who are of legal age, but may be flat chested and short..  So you can't exactly say.. 

"Oh! That character is 4'7 and an A-cup! She's a minor!"   I mean, my roommate is in her 20s and she can fit into clothing from the children's section.

If you see a REAL adult getting creepy on a REAL LIVE minor.. do something about it.  Go get staff, yell out, draw attention.  Real children, and everyone for that matter, should be able to feel safe.  However, I wouldn't worry about an anime girl with a petite body in a bikini.

Uh, we can start by banning things that advertise the sexual depiction of children (e.g., shota). The convention can make it policy that anyone who promotes the sexual depiction of children gets shut down. Introduce a review/investigation system for people to file complaints.

I randomly attended the panel on a video game called Vanguard Princess, which featured this character:
http://i.imgur.com/9b3lMlX.jpg
I simply asked the panel how old she is, and they told me eight.

Eight years old. This is how companies who use Fanime to promote their products view eight year old girls.
Even worse is some other guy in the audience responded to my criticism by saying he was drawn to Vanguard Princess because of this.

Things like shota merchandise and the Vanguard Princess panel create an open atmosphere for pedophiles to promote the sexualization of children. My intention is not to demonize pedophiles (I actually don't think they do anything wrong until they act on their desires; it's not their fault they're attracted to kids). However, I do not think this is the kind of message that should be promoted through the convention.

I do take your point that enforcement cannot be perfect (especially because it's common for copout excuses like "she's not ten years old...she's actually a 4000 year old alien who just looks like a child"). I don't have an answer for that. But the convention can certainly make it known that it does not condone pedophilia and will no longer allow the free for all environment for it that currently exists.

It blows my mind that the organizers approved the shota merchandise. It makes me wonder what other products take advantage of the convention's venue to promote pedophilia.

While I get that the theme was a summer beach party, I don't get a lot of "cosplays" out there. Is practically being naked a cosplay? I'm all for promoting the codes of conduct

While I agree that the whole convention was sexualized (I hated my badge for this reason), I'd prefer to just focus on the pedophilia prevalent in the convention. I think that's actually an issue worth our attention. Adults wearing skimpy clothing is something I can tolerate. Adults lusting over prepubescent children is not tolerable.

And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about the occasional naked child in anime. I'm complaining about explicitly sexual content. Legit cartoon pedophilia.

Can the organizers of Fanime take a stand against the sexualization of children at their event? There were anime theaters and panels that involved prepubescent girls depicted sexually (skimpy & form fitting clothing, nude, sexually suggestive poses, sexually charged dialog, sexually based plot). I didn't explore the hentai or yaoi, but I saw signs for shota, and expect many products sold in the vendor area involved the sexual depiction of children. I think this content gives the convention and Japanese culture a bad image. I (and perhaps others) would appreciate intervention on behalf of the convention organizers.

The code of conduct could simply be changed to prohibit the following:
1. Vendors and artists cannot sell or display products (anime, manga, pillows, prints, etc.) that depict prepubescent children sexually.
2. Videos played in the theaters cannot depict prepubescent children sexually.
3. Panels cannot display or promote products that depict prepubescent children sexually.

Fanime is supposed to be a safe place for everyone, but I think condoning the sexualization of children contradicts that.