State of the Industry

[PyronIkari]

Do you have any idea why you're posting to this forum?

In this forum? Because I've been going to fanime for a looooooooooooong time, and know a good amount of the staff members. I was ASKED TO join this forum by specific staff members to help out with things since they knew I was knowledgable about most of the subjects.

Why I'm posting in this thread specifically?

I hate when people say incredibly stupid things about a subject matter that they supposedly care about.

I'm personally here to have fun, and so are a lot of the other people here.

You can have fun without saying incredibly stupid things... can't you?

Even if I did present a full-fledged, realistic business proposal here, it wouldn't help anybody because the people here aren't the people who can implement it.  I was interested to see if anybody here downloads or fansubs, and I was curious how they'd react to various possible plans for the various anime companies to make money off of them.

You don't need a full-fledged business proposal. Your ideas just need to REALISTICALLY MAKE SENSE, which yours do not. You jump to major conclusion based on one fact, and that doesn't work. You make horrible assumptions, based on one fact, and again... that doesn't work.

I was hoping that, if I threw out some fun ideas too (like mDuo and Tony were throwing out fun ideas), they'd maybe speak up and come up with some ideas of their own and tell the forum what they're willing to pay for.  However, your existence means that we'll never know.  They're never going to post because you're just going to be abusive if they even try to say anything isn't worthy of a dissertation.  We're never going to hear their opinions.  Your constant derision stifles interesting conversation.  Just because people here are anime fans rather than doctors, lawyers, MBAs, Japanese teachers, etc. doesn't mean that their input isn't interesting.  Heck, even if they were doctors, lawyers, MBAs, etc., they would probably have better things to do than to write something up so airtight that you aren't going to call them names for it.  If you don't want to hear the opinions of other anime fans, why are you here?

Ideas can come from anyone, intelligent or worthwhile ideas come with thought and reasoning. I'm not abusive just because I say an idea that won't work... won't work. You see, if I say your idea won't work, it's your job to prove that it will, this is called discussion and progression. You are trying to present your idea, and try to prove and show how your idea is good. It's fun to bring up and discuss something with actual points of logic, so that more discussion can occur because of it. A good idea, brings birth to more good ideas, and option weighing of these different ideas as to which will work, which will not, which parts of an idea will work, and which can be intergrated together with others' ideas to make a solid reasonable plan.

But this all starts with making logical and thoughtful ideas and to push them, and to work out the logical kinks. You don't need to incorporate every single detail to make sure a plan is flawless before you progress, but the basics need to be covered. The major points of understanding have to be there. You are not presenting these MAJOR points, and IGNORING THEM. That's no longer a fun game of presenting ideas, it becomes people presenting a bunch of idiotic thoughts that they don't even think through before saying them.

It's the equivalent of...

"Anime companies should make more money... that way they wouldn't be doing bad. Maybe they can higher slaves to do work that way they don't use as much money in production."

That's the equivalent of what you're saying. Your statements ignore so many important basics, that the idea you propose is so perposperous that it's not even worth really looking into. But for some god damned reason I sit there and explain to you how your idea won't work regardless, because I guess I'm that stupid.

[Nyxyin]

Why does everyone pull the "You're being abusive" card so quickly? I've just been reading along here, a good back and forth argument, and all of a sudden a post that has nothing to do with the talk appears.

Riddling posts with words like "stupid" and "crap" isn't abusive?  He asked me why I'm posting here first.

The reason I'm not posting Nyxyin has nothing to do with Pyron (I'm a fansubber, editor of subtitles, and did some research about the anime industry a couple of years ago). I just don't care enough to break down the arguments and cite resources when the debate gets to this length.

But that's what I'm saying.  Not all discussions need to cite resources and have lengthy debates.  That's not what I wanted.  Whether the plan is realistic or not, wouldn't you find it cool if the companies would give fansubbers "Please add these commercials to your fansubs" letters instead of "please cease and desist" letters during production time?  We watch anime, after all.  Just because they have unrealistically big and expressive eyes or are set in unrealistic worlds and situations doesn't make them stupid.

Yes, I admit that the reality is that Cartoon Network probably attracts the majority of viewers.  (I didn't initially mean to say otherwise.)  The reality is also that some people are just going to download no matter how much they are discouraged from doing so.  There just isn't that much to say about realistic arguments.  I thought that reality was covered before I ever came into the thread.  So, I figured I'd try to start from a few outside-the-box angles.  If fansubbers are really in it for ego and rebellion, then brainstorming on whether companies can use fansubbers wouldn't be interesting.  But, if fansubbers would find it cool to help companies during the pre-production process, maybe by following that line, we would accidentally run into something that wasn't so unrealistic.  But that conversation can't take place if people are calling it "crap" and "stupid".

[Nyxyin]

I was ASKED TO join this forum by specific staff members to help out with things since they knew I was knowledgeable about most of the subjects.

And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Why I'm posting in this thread specifically?
I hate when people say incredibly stupid things about a subject matter that they supposedly care about.

Great inventions have originated from people who started out dreaming of what other people called "stupid".  Anime itself was called "stupid" by a whole lot of people when it first started out.

Your ideas just need to REALISTICALLY MAKE SENSE, which yours do not.

*sigh*  At first, I was supporting mDuo's idea.  Then, I thought up a logic trick that I thought was rather cute and entertaining, but people jumped all over that and thought I was seriously suggesting removing dubs.  I think it says bad things about a forum about entertainment that people immediately took it as a realistic suggestion and couldn't just laugh.

You jump to major conclusion based on one fact, and that doesn't work. You make horrible assumptions, based on one fact, and again... that doesn't work.

OK, I admit that dubs are a major part of the market.  I had asked if we still cared about the 40K fansub downloaders anyways.  The answer was yes.  If we care about the 40K downloaders, then let's talk about those 40K fansub downloaders.  If you didn't notice, making commercials and extras to splice into fansubs would require that the companies keep their dub studios, so I did tacitly agree that we're not going to remove dubs.  I was throwing out ideas that might lead to getting additional money from the 40K without taking out the dubs.  I'm sorry I didn't explicitly spell it earlier out, but I didn't think I needed to.

it becomes people presenting a bunch of idiotic thoughts that they don't even think through before saying them.

Not all ideas spring out fully formed.  Just because an idea isn't fully formed doesn't mean it's stupid or that the whole thing needs to be thrown out.  Discussion can also be improvement and refinement.  Fansubbers donate a lot of time for whatever reason.  Why do they do it, and can American anime companies make money off of it?  Do they have enough pull over their downloaders to help American anime companies make more money?

"Anime companies should make more money... that way they wouldn't be doing bad. Maybe they can hire slaves to do work that way they don't use as much money in production."

That's the equivalent of what you're saying.

Assuming that anime companies are doing poorly, they should try to make more money.  There is already a lot of free labor being applied to anime, and people are accusing that free labor of hurting the anime companies.  Is there any way the anime companies can take advantage of that free labor rather than just calling it illegal, and if not, why not?

Apparently, the authorities took one of the Asian pirate companies and turned it into a properly-licensed company that helped reduce piracy in Asia.  What happened with that?  Can there be parallels drawn here?

[Chun]

But that's what I'm saying.  Not all discussions need to cite resources and have lengthy debates.  That's not what I wanted.  Whether the plan is realistic or not, wouldn't you find it cool if the companies would give fansubbers "Please add these commercials to your fansubs" letters instead of "please cease and desist" letters during production time?  We watch anime, after all.  Just because they have unrealistically big and expressive eyes or are set in unrealistic worlds and situations doesn't make them stupid.

Yes, it would be nice, in a perfect world where there's control over fansub groups and companies backing them up and no one in the world downloaded them until they decided it was good enough to be put on DVD.

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely mad.

The fact that a fansubbing group exists is detrimental to the economy, and no company really enjoys dealing with the groups out there (SEE: Anime-Junkies egotrip a few years back). Even though my group stopped a project as soon as the series was licensed (Or did work that we couldn't see being licensed), in the end the waves of people between released constantly pestering us to finish the series probably far overlooked the fact that we were subbing this out of fun, not for profit. That's what it boils down to; fansubbers like myself are not mysterious creatures as you put it; it's a fact we try to bring material over that has a possibility of being licensed, or just for the fun of it. The bottom line is simple:

Fansubs are, contrary to popular belief, illegal (In the least sense). Though the subs happen before the DVD release, the internet is no longer a convenient place where everyone has good intentions and stops distribution right before DVD licensing, and buys the copy to support the original creators rather than storing it on their hard drives or burning them off to DVD-Rs.

Seeing how this thread is approaching a non-constructive direction, I'm calling it quits here.

~Chun

[mDuo13]

Seeing how this thread is approaching a non-constructive direction, I'm calling it quits here.

Really? I'm pretty sure the thread (like most) was non-constructive to begin with.

[Nyxyin]

The fact that a fansubbing group exists is detrimental to the economy

Then why do you do it?

and no company really enjoys dealing with the groups out there (SEE: Anime-Junkies egotrip a few years back).

And yet I've heard of two cases in which companies did use fansubbers: apparently, the KKnJ fansubber from Foothill Anime had something to do with RightStuf's release, and apparently, SyncPoint used an ex-president of Stanford's anime club (who did fansubs for club showings) for their release of FLCL and Tenshi ni Narumon.  Various companies claim that they were fansubbers to begin with.  AnimeJunkies doesn't represent all the fansub groups.  I believe hearing an outcry among fansub groups strongly disagreeing with and deriding AnimeJunkie's behavior, and I haven't heard of them since then.  How many people still support AnimeJunkies?  How much more support could they have had if they didn't go off the deep end?

Even though my group stopped a project as soon as the series was licensed (Or did work that we couldn't see being licensed), in the end the waves of people between released constantly pestering us to finish the series probably far overlooked the fact that we were subbing this out of fun, not for profit.

It's a normal problem for people to underestimate the silent majority.  We were using 40K as a reasonable number of people that download a fansub series from a reputable group which stops upon licensing announcement.  If even a mere 1% of these people pester for completion, the reputable fansub group still sees 400 whiners.  That's a depressingly large number of complaints.  However, what the group forgets is that there were 39,600 other fans that were downloading the series but simply accepted it and didn't say anything.  It would've been nice if they said, "Yay!  It's licensed!  Now I can get real DVDs!", but they're not going to feel like saying it because now they have to wait two years for the commercial companies to catch up to the point where the fansubs were.  Whatever goodwill the fansubbers created towards the series in a large part becomes cooled off by a licensing announcement.  The momentum stops.  Why can't there be a way to convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead?

Fansubs are, contrary to popular belief, illegal

I know fansubs are illegal, but I don't think that's contrary to popular belief.  I think most people who infringe copyrights understand that it's technically illegal.  But speeding is also illegal, and we know for sure that all drivers understand that speeding is illegal because we all have to take a test demonstrating that we know that the law before we are allowed to drive.  It still doesn't stop people from speeding.  Traffic violations being illegal doesn't stop the government from a making money off of speeders either.  When I went to jury duty, one of the screening questions was whether people had run-ins with the law, and everybody in the room (including the judge) had received a traffic ticket before.  With the computers in cars these days, it shouldn't be that hard to prevent a car from going above 65MPH for any length of time, but they just don't do it.  Nobody would buy it anyways, but it's also interesting that consumers insist on a feature that breaks the law.  In economics, legality is only one of many factors.  Automated camera enforcement don't actually stop speeding, but it does make it more efficient to issue speeding tickets.  Can there also be some compromise for fansubs (and all digital material in general)?

[Nyxyin]

Seeing how this thread is approaching a non-constructive direction, I'm calling it quits here.

Really? I'm pretty sure the thread (like most) was non-constructive to begin with.

LOL!  That's what I thought, but I wasn't going to be the one to post it.  ;)

[PyronIkari]

And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Should I point out, that a whole 2 chairs even look at the forum, one barely cares and only posts because of major issues, and the other one is Tony. (In case you don't see my point, the ones that asked me to post on this forum weren't those 2).

Great inventions have originated from people who started out dreaming of what other people called "stupid".  Anime itself was called "stupid" by a whole lot of people when it first started out.

Those "stupid" inventions had a very strong base that seemed unrealistic, not stupid ideas that went against logic. Yours go against logic.

*sigh*  At first, I was supporting mDuo's idea.  Then, I thought up a logic trick that I thought was rather cute and entertaining, but people jumped all over that and thought I was seriously suggesting removing dubs.  I think it says bad things about a forum about entertainment that people immediately took it as a realistic suggestion and couldn't just laugh.

Because this thread originally was a series thread, with real points, and reasoning. A thread that was presenting the actual standing on the state of the industry, knowledge and actual production. Just because you thought it should turn into "LOL LET'S BE STUPID!" doesn't mean that's what the thread was... until you tried to turn it into that.

OK, I admit that dubs are a major part of the market.  I had asked if we still cared about the 40K fansub downloaders anyways.  The answer was yes.  If we care about the 40K downloaders, then let's talk about those 40K fansub downloaders.  If you didn't notice, making commercials and extras to splice into fansubs would require that the companies keep their dub studios, so I did tacitly agree that we're not going to remove dubs.  I was throwing out ideas that might lead to getting additional money from the 40K without taking out the dubs.  I'm sorry I didn't explicitly spell it earlier out, but I didn't think I needed to.

Throwing out ideas, that are both illegal, and problematic. That realistically would not work, and cause far more problems and issues than would help.

Not all ideas spring out fully formed.  Just because an idea isn't fully formed doesn't mean it's stupid or that the whole thing needs to be thrown out.  Discussion can also be improvement and refinement.  Fansubbers donate a lot of time for whatever reason.  Why do they do it, and can American anime companies make money off of it?  Do they have enough pull over their downloaders to help American anime companies make more money?

Obviously not all ideas start out fully formed. I even said this. The major point is... that the idea isn't completely stupid. The idea doesn't already contain contradictions within itself, and doesn't cause a whole crap load of problems.

Assuming that anime companies are doing poorly, they should try to make more money.  There is already a lot of free labor being applied to anime, and people are accusing that free labor of hurting the anime companies.  Is there any way the anime companies can take advantage of that free labor rather than just calling it illegal, and if not, why not?

Apparently, the authorities took one of the Asian pirate companies and turned it into a properly-licensed company that helped reduce piracy in Asia.  What happened with that?  Can there be parallels drawn here?

Because IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

And yet I've heard of two cases in which companies did use fansubbers: apparently, the KKnJ fansubber from Foothill Anime had something to do with RightStuf's release, and apparently, SyncPoint used an ex-president of Stanford's anime club (who did fansubs for club showings) for their release of FLCL and Tenshi ni Narumon.  Various companies claim that they were fansubbers to begin with.  AnimeJunkies doesn't represent all the fansub groups.  I believe hearing an outcry among fansub groups strongly disagreeing with and deriding AnimeJunkie's behavior, and I haven't heard of them since then.  How many people still support AnimeJunkies?  How much more support could they have had if they didn't go off the deep end?

Using fansubbers in legal ways. They hired people that were fansubbers, and had them due legal work within the company due to knowledge of the product and skills. It's the same idea of hiring a criminal in the past to prevent crimes and to catch criminals in the future. Because they know how it works, because they are skilled, they can use their skills to be productive... legally. There's such a huge difference there.

It's a normal problem for people to underestimate the silent majority.  We were using 40K as a reasonable number of people that download a fansub series from a reputable group which stops upon licensing announcement.  If even a mere 1% of these people pester for completion, the reputable fansub group still sees 400 whiners.  That's a depressingly large number of complaints.  However, what the group forgets is that there were 39,600 other fans that were downloading the series but simply accepted it and didn't say anything.  It would've been nice if they said, "Yay!  It's licensed!  Now I can get real DVDs!", but they're not going to feel like saying it because now they have to wait two years for the commercial companies to catch up to the point where the fansubs were.  Whatever goodwill the fansubbers created towards the series in a large part becomes cooled off by a licensing announcement.  The momentum stops.  Why can't there be a way to convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead?

More contradictions in what you say. 39,600 people that accepted it, but didn't like it. PS... those numbers are for a LICENSED SERIES IN THE US. That number was pulled off of the latest episode of Bleach. Why can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL. Good will doesn't mean crap. If I punch a rich guy and steal money for him, and give it to a poor kid, I'm still commiting crimes, and there's no way to justify that. "Oh but I gave it to someone that needed it officer, I was doing the world a favor!".

I know fansubs are illegal, but I don't think that's contrary to popular belief.  I think most people who infringe copyrights understand that it's technically illegal.  But speeding is also illegal, and we know for sure that all drivers understand that speeding is illegal because we all have to take a test demonstrating that we know that the law before we are allowed to drive.  It still doesn't stop people from speeding.  Traffic violations being illegal doesn't stop the government from a making money off of speeders either.  When I went to jury duty, one of the screening questions was whether people had run-ins with the law, and everybody in the room (including the judge) had received a traffic ticket before.  With the computers in cars these days, it shouldn't be that hard to prevent a car from going above 65MPH for any length of time, but they just don't do it.  Nobody would buy it anyways, but it's also interesting that consumers insist on a feature that breaks the law.  In economics, legality is only one of many factors.  Automated camera enforcement don't actually stop speeding, but it does make it more efficient to issue speeding tickets.  Can there also be some compromise for fansubs (and all digital material in general)?

Ugh... why do you use the WORST POSSIBLE EXAMPLES? People know fansubs are illegal, why do they do it? Because they feel that they won't get caught, and because THEY will not feel the immediate consequences for it. Why do speeders speed? Because they think they won't be caught. Why is speeding illegal? Because it's dangerous. Do I really have to explain physics, control, and how a car is affected when it's going faster? The comparison doesn't make sense, because it goes to the gov't who is upholding the law. Here's how it would work in this example. How would companies make money in the same way the government does in your example?

IF COMPANIES SUED THE FANSUBBERS FOR DAMAGES. Now here's the hardpart. How does a company go about doing this, how much will it cost, and who do they sue? It's hard to prove things, it's hard to put things in action, and it's even harder and time consuming for it all to go through. Do you know why cars don't have limiters that let them go over 65? Because that would cause a lot of problems like... disallowing legalized racing, speed limits vary according to where you are, amongst hundreds of millions of other things. Once more... do you even ATTEMPT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY BEFORE YOU SAY IT?!?!?!?!?!?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL we should illegalize knives, that way, there will be no stabbings! We should illegalize cars! That will prevent car accidents! We should illegalize everything, and people shouldn't be allowed outside, that way people won't get hurt!

[Tony]

And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Should I point out, that a whole 2 chairs even look at the forum, one barely cares and only posts because of major issues, and the other one is Tony. (In case you don't see my point, the ones that asked me to post on this forum weren't those 2).

Hey hey hey. Let's get things straight - I only barely care, too.  ;D

I guess I shouldn't be hanging around this sandbox, but every once in a while, it's fun to play around. I'm saying that this thread could have a point. Or maybe that's just my unending optimism...

Anyway, as Pyron said in many more words, fansub groups and industry can't get in bed. There's a little logic issue for you! - for them to work together, the fansub groups can't actually do any subs; they'd have to stop, and hence lose a lot of their usefulness (and their name - as fans that sub), in order to do so.

(The only way I can see industry using using fansub groups to its advantage is to completely rip off the fansubber's translations. Except, of course, but it'd be poor quality and probably illegal... but the idea would be pretty funny.  ;D)

The thing could come full circle, though. Industry topples, fansubs come into prominence, the good ones go legit and make enough money to get back to where we are now. That's the default/omniscient market/capitalism scenario.

[Tenba]

I guess I shouldn't be hanging around this sandbox, but every once in a while, it's fun to play around.

Why do you say that you shouldn't be playing here?  (Does that apply to me too?)  I think it's good that you play.  I think it helps give the feel that Fanime really is "by fans, for fans" rather than having aloof authority figures that come in only to Give Official Word or Hand Down the Law.

Anyway, as Pyron said in many more words, fansub groups and industry can't get in bed. There's a little logic issue for you! - for them to work together, the fansub groups can't actually do any subs; they'd have to stop, and hence lose a lot of their usefulness (and their name - as fans that sub), in order to do so.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point.  Technically, fansubbers just can't distro.  I believe there shouldn't be anything technically illegal about creating a list of text translations.  Maybe partnered Japanese/American companies can present a web site with pictureboards and Japanese audio track or Japanese text while letting fansub groups race to subtitle.  Maybe they can sell a subscription for the audience to preview the fansub races or sell ads on the site where the races are held.  Maybe it can be a vehicle for teaching Japanese and explaining localization decisions too.  Maybe it can help provide material for "translator notes".  This idea doesn't give anything for the fansub timers and encoders to do, but the fansub translators and editors can be kept busy on a series even after the licensing announcement, and the audience would have something to do and something to see while they wait for DVD production.

The thing could come full circle, though. Industry topples, fansubs come into prominence, the good ones go legit and make enough money to get back to where we are now. That's the default/omniscient market/capitalism scenario.

Probably.  Every industry seems to revisit copyright infringement debates with every new technology, so that keeps going in circles too.

[OniCourseMusha]

GAH!! My brain f***in hurts reading all these essays!!

On topic:  I want to hear that original poster has to respond to all this.

[Nyxyin]

And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Should I point out, that a whole 2 chairs even look at the forum, one barely cares and only posts because of major issues, and the other one is Tony. (In case you don't see my point, the ones that asked me to post on this forum weren't those 2).

I don't see how that's related.  I asked why do you post, and you said it's because you were invited.  Then I pointed out that you kept posting even when you were uninvited.  So, if your reason for posting was because you were invited, I was curious why you kept posting even when you were uninvited.

Because this thread originally was a serious thread, with real points, and reasoning.

Before I posted, you had already said, "Bottomline: downloads are illegal, and you shouldn't do it."  It sounded reasonable to me, and it sounded like the serious part of the thread was simply finished there.

Because this thread originally was a series thread, with real points, and reasoning. A thread that was presenting the actual standing on the state of the industry, knowledge and actual production. Just because you thought it should turn into "LOL LET'S BE STUPID!" doesn't mean that's what the thread was... until you tried to turn it into that.

You yourself said that the thread was already full of misinformation, starting with the very first post.

Throwing out ideas, that are both illegal, and problematic. That realistically would not work, and cause far more problems and issues than would help.

That's what some people said about the idea of women voting.

Because IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

Using fansubbers in legal ways. They hired people that were fansubbers, and had them due legal work within the company due to knowledge of the product and skills. It's the same idea of hiring a criminal in the past to prevent crimes and to catch criminals in the future. Because they know how it works, because they are skilled, they can use their skills to be productive... legally. There's such a huge difference there.

If they talk to the Japanese companies and get permission, it's no longer illegal.  I don't see how that's a huge difference.  It's still legitimizing and capitalizing on what was previously illegal.

More contradictions in what you say. 39,600 people that accepted it, but didn't like it. PS... those numbers are for a LICENSED SERIES IN THE US.

I checked numbers on scarywater.  The numbers for some unlicensed series aren't that far off.

That number was pulled off of the latest episode of Bleach. Why can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL.

Legality is only one of many possible factors in economics.  If people get stuck on things being illegal, there are many potentially good ideas that get overlooked.

Good will doesn't mean crap. If I punch a rich guy and steal money for him, and give it to a poor kid, I'm still commiting crimes, and there's no way to justify that. "Oh but I gave it to someone that needed it officer, I was doing the world a favor!".

Robin Hood sold lots of books and movies.  Even Martha Stewart sold books and TV shows and such after getting out of jail.  Goodwill can translate to money even when people are committing crimes.

People know fansubs are illegal, why do they do it? Because they feel that they won't get caught, and because THEY will not feel the immediate consequences for it. Why do speeders speed? Because they think they won't be caught. Why is speeding illegal? Because it's dangerous. {...} Do you know why cars don't have limiters that let them go over 65? Because that would cause a lot of problems like... disallowing legalized racing, speed limits vary according to where you are, amongst hundreds of millions of other things.

Race cars aren't street legal.  Why not limit the ability to go fast to cars that can't drive in legal traffic?  It'd probably be a software limiter that can only be changed by a mechanic (the way people aren't supposed to be able to turn back their odometers).  It'd be neat if the roads sent wireless signals telling the cars what the speed limit is, and the cars just will not go faster than that for more than a minute.  It can technologically be done eventually, but it'd be expensive and take a lot of time, and nobody would fund it even if it were proposed.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL we should illegalize knives, that way, there will be no stabbings!

If it were technologically easy to create knives that will cut meat without cutting humans, why not make it illegal for the average civilian to have human-cutting knives?  Just like cars with certain racing features cannot be legally used on normal roads during normal traffic hours, knives that can cut people cannot be used in normal homes or sold to normal consumers.  If it were possible to create a knife that will cut meat but not humans, I don't see what's wrong with requiring a surgeon license to buy a human-cutting knife.

But this has very little to do with anime.  It's just that things being illegal doesn't stop being people doing them.  Besides, laws can get overturned and worked around.

[Nyxyin]

On topic:  I want to hear that original poster has to respond to all this.

It was a post and run.  The original poster created an account, posted two messages somewhat related to Atsuicon, and then never came back.

[OniCourseMusha]

On topic:  I want to hear that original poster has to respond to all this.

It was a post and run.  The original poster created an account, posted two messages somewhat related to Atsuicon, and then never came back.

damn it what a waste!!  This is why I hate people who just create account post very few things and to be never be heard back.  Watever!  He was trying to convince us to support the industry but its pretty pointless or not enough when you have try to convince millions of people who download anime in my opinion.

[Nyxyin]

Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

In fact, the links seem to say that the Japanese anime market is still growing: "The animeanime.jp news website reported that Japanese anime DVD sales rose from 82.4 billion yen (about US$771 million) in 2003 to 95 billion yen (about US$890 million) in 2006. Over 2,000 Japanese anime DVDs were released in 2006."

Also, http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2007/nyaf-icv2/icv2/whitepaper says, "sales of anime DVDs (not box office takes of anime shown in theaters or any revenue from the broadcast of anime on television) actually decreased from US$550 million in 2003 to US$400 million for last year.  Sell-through numbers for other years were US$450 million in 2005 and US$500 million in 2004 and 2002."  That is...

2002 $500M
2003 $550M
2004 $500M
2005 $450M
2006 $400M

So, the peak was in 2003.  I think it's interesting that they excluded theater and TV numbers.  I also think it's interesting that the ADV cable channel was announced in 2002.  According to http://www.advfilms.com/about-anime-network.aspx "Anime Network's current distribution has grown from zero to 40,000,000+ households and the network reaches over 94% of all digital households in North America through affiliate partners."  That's a lot of households that are getting anime on TV without having to go to buy DVDs now.  If each of those households moved only a average of $2/year from DVD purchases to pay per view anime purchases instead, that would make up for the difference.  Another interesting that was said is "fans demand the kind of season-set pricing that is now commonplace for American television series".  Well, if they want to sell it to an American TV show audience, it seems reasonable that they should expect the consumers to demand American TV show prices.  I paid $35 for the Battlestar Galactica season one 5 disk thinpak.  I paid $90 for my KKnJ 5 disk box set, and I was so happy to get it at such a bargain that I bought a second set...

So, I don't understand why they're blaming the downloaders when they're not counting TV numbers.  The anime on TV has gone up a lot since 2003.  To accuse the 40K downloaders of being responsible for a $50M/year decline, people would have to expect each downloader to buy $1250 of DVDs every year.  I might spend that much personally, but I doubt the people who are downloading can afford it.  It seems more realistic that those 40M households with Anime Network moved an average of less than $2/year to pay per view anime instead of spending it on DVDs.  Besides, there are many other legal ways to get anime without buying DVDs.  I know a friend that rents all his anime from NetFlix and another that uses the local video rental place.  Because they've spent money on rentals, and because renting is completely legal, they completely feel like they've done their part to support the anime industry, and they never actually buy any DVDs, so they don't show up in anime DVD sales figures.  Libraries are carrying quite a lot of anime, anime clubs are building anime lending libraries, and people are coming up with anime DVD trading sites as well.  All this is considered to be fully legal, and things like this are bound to happen more as anime gets more popular.  Until 2003, it's possible that these alternatives weren't widely available yet.  It might've been harder to get anime DVDs on NetFlix or at the local video store because anime just didn't have enough market penetration.  In 2003, there was no AZN TV, no AniMonday, and no Funimation channel.  There are a lot more legal ways to get anime without buying the DVDs now.  I'm not sure I see any proof that the downloaders are responsible for the decline.

If the American anime companies want to try to capitalize on them, that's great.  Merely saying that downloading is illegal and people shouldn't do it doesn't solve the problem.  There are a lot of still-legal alternatives that will get them access to anime without buying any DVDs.

[Jun-Watarase]

Throwing out ideas, that are both illegal, and problematic. That realistically would not work, and cause far more problems and issues than would help.

That's what some people said about the idea of women voting.

Okay, since it's mostly you and Pyron's discussion, I'll leave him to respond to the entire post... that, and I'm lazy. But WHAT IS WITH your series of ridiculous analogies and comparisons that don't even apply or make sense?! Now you're comparing your idea to a revolutionary idea of allowing women to vote... but here's the thing; there's a difference between going against sexist bias, and going against logic.

Because IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

See, ideas like these... you might have the intention of regulating law, but you'd lose profit and the industry wouldn't make this move. Part of your demographic of people purchasing anime on DVD are those who have followed subs and want to support the series/studio. If this were allowed, they'd either wouldn't touch it and buy a physical copy, since... why would anyone pay for subs from the same source if it's provided for free? Or they'd just download the subs and have that as their support, no longer feeling the need to purchase DVDs and supporting them for less. Either way, the industry loses money.

[Nyxyin]

here's the thing; there's a difference between going against sexist bias, and going against logic.

That is true, but nobody has explained why they think I'm going against logic.  Logic is merely a path.  Logic itself doesn't actually say or mean anything by itself.  Logic merely says that certain results can follow from certain assumptions and other results cannot.  I can always find a piece of perfect logic that says what I want it to say as long as I change the assumptions around, so saying that I'm going against logic doesn't get anywhere.  If the assumptions are wrong, then it doesn't matter how perfect the logic is, the results are still wrong.  Logic says things like "if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C."  So, if the assumptions are "women aren't intelligent enough to understand politics" and "people who can't understand politics shouldn't vote", then it is completely logical to say that women shouldn't vote.  The idea that women shouldn't vote doesn't necessarily go against logic itself; it goes against sexist assumptions.

Likewise, my ideas are logical given the set of assumptions I'm using.  If the American anime companies want to make more money, and if they think the downloaders are a problem, then logic says that it makes sense to come up with ways to convince the downloaders to pay the companies money.

Why can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL.

This was what I was responding to.  It's obvious that the general idea of converting goodwill and momentum to dollars just isn't illegal.  Therefore, he has some assumption about a specific case in mind that he didn't mention, but I have to logically assume he's talking only about illegal ways to convert goodwill and momentum.  And, whatever illegal ways he's thinking about can be made legal by getting permission.  Therefore, the idea that it's currently illegal shouldn't stop people from brainstorming about how to convert goodwill and momentum to dollars.  I'm personally not attached to any one idea.  I'm just brainstorming.  However, the way Pyron is responding, it sounds like he thinks it's illegal and wrong to even brainstorm about how to convert downloaders to paying customers, and people keep talking as if they never read past my first idea.  I've already dropped the idea that they can cut expenses by removing the dub studios (and I wasn't even serious about that one in the first place), but people kept harping on it even after I've moved on.

Because IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

See, ideas like these... you might have the intention of regulating law, but you'd lose profit and the industry wouldn't make this move.

Ideas like what?  (And what does "regulating law" mean?)  Pyron wasn't targeting any specific idea there.  He had written that "converting goodwill and momentum to dollars" is illegal, and that's very clearly not the case.  He didn't say what he wanted to say, so I'm not sure what he wanted to say there.  But whatever he wanted to say, something being illegal shouldn't at all be a hurdle or a reason to not consider it because getting over the illegal hurdle can be done by getting permission from the Japanese company.  Now, if he had said that allowing fansubs to be distributed at all after licensing would lose the company money (which seems to be what you're saying?) instead of saying that converting goodwill and momentum to dollars is illegal, then the response would've been different.  But that's not what he said.

One of the problems with just rejecting or ignoring everything that's illegal is that people don't get any information about how many dollars are actually lost (or gained) through illegal activity.  Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's necessarily morally bad, depending on what moral code people believe in.  What Robin Hood did was very clearly illegal, but there are quite a few people who don't believe that he was morally bad.  The American Revolution was illegal too, but we are still taught to admire our country's forefathers for it.  The idea that those who participate in illegal activities only do it because they want to be bad and don't think they'll get caught is going to be wrong in some percentage of the cases.  If someone is speeding to and from work twice a day for 200 days per year for years on end, the probability is actually very, very high that they'll get caught eventually.  And they're definitely not speeding because they want to endanger people.  They just want to be more productive.  And the economics work out: if it's a few hundred dollars for traffic school, and if they think they'll only get caught once a year, but those extra minutes in the office means that they get a few thousand dollars per year of extra pay increase, then economically, it makes logical sense to speed.  The government can change the economics by making speeding tickets result in a higher penalty, and some percent of speeders will show down.  They can change people's perception of the odds by putting out more or fewer cops or by using more or fewer photo enforcement devices.  The fact that speeding is illegal isn't the end of the conversation, just like saying that "downloading is illegal, so people just shouldn't do it" isn't the be-all end-all of the downloading question.  It's only the beginning of a different conversation since playing with other variables can still be fun and interesting.

Part of your demographic of people purchasing anime on DVD are those who have followed subs and want to support the series/studio. If this were allowed, they'd either wouldn't touch it and buy a physical copy, since... why would anyone pay for subs from the same source if it's provided for free? Or they'd just download the subs and have that as their support, no longer feeling the need to purchase DVDs and supporting them for less. Either way, the industry loses money.

Thanks.  That sounds like progress.  I'd love to write an intelligent response here, but I can't because I personally tried to throw several ideas out there, and there were other ideas thrown in too.  Which one of the ideas specifically are you talking about, and what details of implementation are you using?

[Jun-Watarase]

here's the thing; there's a difference between going against sexist bias, and going against logic.

That is true, but nobody has explained why they think I'm going against logic.  Logic is merely a path.  Logic itself doesn't actually say or mean anything by itself.  Logic merely says that certain results can follow from certain assumptions and other results cannot.  I can always find a piece of perfect logic that says what I want it to say as long as I change the assumptions around, so saying that I'm going against logic doesn't get anywhere.  If the assumptions are wrong, then it doesn't matter how perfect the logic is, the results are still wrong.  Logic says things like "if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C."  So, if the assumptions are "women aren't intelligent enough to understand politics" and "people who can't understand politics shouldn't vote", then it is completely logical to say that women shouldn't vote.  The idea that women shouldn't vote doesn't necessarily go against logic itself; it goes against sexist assumptions.

By then, there WERE women who understood politics and wanted equal rights to vote. The logic against that idea wasn't based on fact-- just bias that women were inferior and didn't deserve that sort of equality... which doesn't apply whatsoever. But anyways, when anyone refers to logic, I think they mean "logic without stupid assumptions". So far, the ideas that you've presented are inefficient and problematic, where the industry could potentially lose money... but at the same time, wouldn't be dumb enough to even make those moves.

Likewise, my ideas are logical given the set of assumptions I'm using.  If the American anime companies want to make more money, and if they think the downloaders are a problem, then logic says that it makes sense to come up with ways to convince the downloaders to pay the companies money.

I'll be straightforward and say that no one would do this.

Why can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL.

This was what I was responding to.  It's obvious that the general idea of converting goodwill and momentum to dollars just isn't illegal.  Therefore, he has some assumption about a specific case in mind that he didn't mention, but I have to logically assume he's talking only about illegal ways to convert goodwill and momentum.  And, whatever illegal ways he's thinking about can be made legal by getting permission.  Therefore, the idea that it's currently illegal shouldn't stop people from brainstorming about how to convert goodwill and momentum to dollars.  I'm personally not attached to any one idea.  I'm just brainstorming.  However, the way Pyron is responding, it sounds like he thinks it's illegal and wrong to even brainstorm about how to convert downloaders to paying customers, and people keep talking as if they never read past my first idea.  I've already dropped the idea that they can cut expenses by removing the dub studios (and I wasn't even serious about that one in the first place), but people kept harping on it even after I've moved on.

But why would anyone do this? You're just trying to make what's illegal, legal... of which would do nothing but lose people money and waste people's time, and possibly be promoting illegal downloading anyway. As for your brainstorming, it's not that anyone was stuck on your first idea-- it's that each one that you present here is just as ridiculous and inefficient. So what do you have? A series of ideas that don't work.

Because IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

See, ideas like these... you might have the intention of regulating law, but you'd lose profit and the industry wouldn't make this move.

Ideas like what?  (And what does "regulating law" mean?)  Pyron wasn't targeting any specific idea there.  He had written that "converting goodwill and momentum to dollars" is illegal, and that's very clearly not the case.  He didn't say what he wanted to say, so I'm not sure what he wanted to say there.  But whatever he wanted to say, something being illegal shouldn't at all be a hurdle or a reason to not consider it because getting over the illegal hurdle can be done by getting permission from the Japanese company.  Now, if he had said that allowing fansubs to be distributed at all after licensing would lose the company money (which seems to be what you're saying?) instead of saying that converting goodwill and momentum to dollars is illegal, then the response would've been different.  But that's not what he said.

... -_-

Follow the series of quotes and you get traced back to your idea of having subbers contact Japanese companies to have them legally distribute... illegal subs. You're trying to make it legal and it'd supposedly be NO PROBLEM after doing so. Do you honestly need anyone to explain why this wouldn't work? For one, no one would do this, because if they did, both parties would lose money. The subbers and downloaders willing to do this will lose their time and money and the company dumb enough to do this would lose money. Because of that, it'd promote even more pirating since the company is so willing to sign off their media for the public to download, anyway.

But if you meant, have the companies legalize this process and distribute the subs for free, then... I had said before, you're losing money from those who purchase anime (via the legal ways provided now) to support the series and company would either just download the free subs since it'd then be legal, or continue to purchase a physical copy of their DVDs and have the company end up wasting their money with even bothering with subs in the first place.

One of the problems with just rejecting or ignoring everything that's illegal is that people don't get any information about how many dollars are actually lost (or gained) through illegal activity.  Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's necessarily morally bad, depending on what moral code people believe in.  What Robin Hood did was very clearly illegal, but there are quite a few people who don't believe that he was morally bad.  The American Revolution was illegal too, but we are still taught to admire our country's forefathers for it.  The idea that those who participate in illegal activities only do it because they want to be bad and don't think they'll get caught is going to be wrong in some percentage of the cases.  If someone is speeding to and from work twice a day for 200 days per year for years on end, the probability is actually very, very high that they'll get caught eventually.  And they're definitely not speeding because they want to endanger people.  They just want to be more productive.  And the economics work out: if it's a few hundred dollars for traffic school, and if they think they'll only get caught once a year, but those extra minutes in the office means that they get a few thousand dollars per year of extra pay increase, then economically, it makes logical sense to speed.  The government can change the economics by making speeding tickets result in a higher penalty, and some percent of speeders will show down.  They can change people's perception of the odds by putting out more or fewer cops or by using more or fewer photo enforcement devices.  The fact that speeding is illegal isn't the end of the conversation, just like saying that "downloading is illegal, so people just shouldn't do it" isn't the be-all end-all of the downloading question.  It's only the beginning of a different conversation since playing with other variables can still be fun and interesting.

Why are you even making these comparisons?!?!?!?!

A person breaking the law by speeding to and fro going to work, it may be illegal, but he's being pushing under the circumstances to do so to... keep his job. Someone speeding to get away from someone shooting at them with the gun is illegal, too, but they're under the circumstances to save their lives. How does this apply to your ideas being illegal and inefficient? They gain nothing and helps no one.

Speeding is illegal because it's hazardous and could risk lives. Pirating is illegal because it's stealing and causes the industry to lose money. They're both illegal, and if they were both made legal, they'd still have the same issues as to why they were illegal in the first place. Speeding, even if legal, would still be dangerous, maybe even more so. Distributing pirated copies of media still loses the industry money, maybe even more so. Okay...? Now what?

Part of your demographic of people purchasing anime on DVD are those who have followed subs and want to support the series/studio. If this were allowed, they'd either wouldn't touch it and buy a physical copy, since... why would anyone pay for subs from the same source if it's provided for free? Or they'd just download the subs and have that as their support, no longer feeling the need to purchase DVDs and supporting them for less. Either way, the industry loses money.

Thanks.  That sounds like progress.  I'd love to write an intelligent response here, but I can't because I personally tried to throw several ideas out there, and there were other ideas thrown in too.  Which one of the ideas specifically are you talking about, and what details of implementation are you using?

Do I have to trace back quotes for you? It's obvious which idea I was responding to, if you couldn't figure it out. But this time, all you have to do is scroll up within this post.

Anyways, this is only... my 3rd post in this thread. I responded this time because I felt the need to actually say something instead of just *facepalm* in front of my screen. It's clear that it's pointless to respond, and it's a wonder that you've even made Pyron feel like he's wasting his time to respond to your jargon, and he's normally more than happy to correct someone's statements if they're wrong. Several other people have already nicely told you that what you've said so far is ridiculously stupid. People have the right present their ideas and opinions, but you seem to be abusing that right with stupidity and will to waste people's time. To avoid future frustration, I'm withdrawing until the next time I feel the urge to respond when you make another ridiculously idiotic statement (in comparison) and if you want, I'll admit defeat from being irritated to death. kjfkdsjflkadflksd >=|

[PyronIkari]

I don't see how that's related.  I asked why do you post, and you said it's because you were invited.  Then I pointed out that you kept posting even when you were uninvited.  So, if your reason for posting was because you were invited, I was curious why you kept posting even when you were uninvited.

Because I honestly don't care who those two are/were. The one that asked me to post asked me to, and didn't tell me to stop. He also said that I should keep posting. His word, is more important to me than theirs.

Before I posted, you had already said, "Bottomline: downloads are illegal, and you shouldn't do it."  It sounded reasonable to me, and it sounded like the serious part of the thread was simply finished there.

But that doesn't change that it was a serious thread. And that doesn't mean you can degrade the thread on your degression. Frankly, it's not your choice to destroy a thread by turning it into a big joke, especially when some people WERE posting legitimately and seriously. And frankly... if it wasn't meant to be taken seriously, you really suck at writing.

You yourself said that the thread was already full of misinformation, starting with the very first post.

Yes... misinformation from commonly misinterpereted facts. I corrected him. Because he was just repeating crap he heard from somewhere else that was wrong, and was taking it seriously. I informed him the more truth of the matter. Then you jumped in and acted like an idiot.

That's what some people said about the idea of women voting.

That was opinion based and not based on facts and reasoning. Again, you really suck at comparisons. Women voting had no factual proof that it would be bad for the system, it was just the opinion that women are lesser beings and didn't deserve it. So, where's the comparison?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

Are you really stupid? What company would say... "Go ahead, take my media, and give it out for free, distribute it for free, and do whatever you want with it, we don't care... especially since, these people can take these raws, and it can be SENT BACK TO JAPAN TO SCREW US OVER." Idealisitcally it would work out, if a Japanese company was THAT STUPID to allow them to do it. But if a company is that stupid, they deserve to fail.

Using fansubbers in legal ways. They hired people that were fansubbers, and had them due legal work within the company due to knowledge of the product and skills. It's the same idea of hiring a criminal in the past to prevent crimes and to catch criminals in the future. Because they know how it works, because they are skilled, they can use their skills to be productive... legally. There's such a huge difference there.

If they talk to the Japanese companies and get permission, it's no longer illegal.  I don't see how that's a huge difference.  It's still legitimizing and capitalizing on what was previously illegal.

... Because it's not capitalizing on what was previously illegal. IT'S STILL ILLEGAL. No company in the world would do it, because it's just asking for funds to be lost. It's promoting people to pirate, and promoting people to download illegally. If they do this, they no longer have any power to stop people from illegally pirating, since they're PROMOTING IT'S USAGE.

I checked numbers on scarywater.  The numbers for some unlicensed series aren't that far off.

And? It still shows that licensed shows have it to.

Legality is only one of many possible factors in economics.  If people get stuck on things being illegal, there are many potentially good ideas that get overlooked.

Okay, besides it being illegal, it's STUPID AND WON'T WORK. For reasons I stated above. You don't reward people, and tell them that it's good to steal media from you, and expect it not to get them to steal more.

Robin Hood sold lots of books and movies.  Even Martha Stewart sold books and TV shows and such after getting out of jail.  Goodwill can translate to money even when people are committing crimes.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT, AND HOW DOES THIS APPLY?!??!?!?! Talking to you is aggrivating because half of what you say doesn't even apply and it's rather retarded, that I'm wasting time before work to reply.

Race cars aren't street legal.  Why not limit the ability to go fast to cars that can't drive in legal traffic?  It'd probably be a software limiter that can only be changed by a mechanic (the way people aren't supposed to be able to turn back their odometers).  It'd be neat if the roads sent wireless signals telling the cars what the speed limit is, and the cars just will not go faster than that for more than a minute.  It can technologically be done eventually, but it'd be expensive and take a lot of time, and nobody would fund it even if it were proposed.

Because "race cars" aren't just Nascar. You realize people race "everyday" sports cars right? Most "RACE CARS" are just modified versions of street cars. The Focus, the Subaru WRX, the RX8, The M3... etc. etc. etc. Seriously, if you think "race cars" are anything special ?outside of F-1, you're an idiot.

And that doesn't address the other problem about DIFFERENT SPEED LIMITS IN DIFFERENT AREAS! You realize speed limit goes up to 80-85 in certain areas as well right? Then there's other cases. Try to tell someone, that he can't go over 55mph when his son is dying, and every second counts to get him to a hospital where he could be saved. Try telling a soon to be mother, that her husband cannot speed to a hospital where she's having complications and might lose her baby.

If it were technologically easy to create knives that will cut meat without cutting humans, why not make it illegal for the average civilian to have human-cutting knives?  Just like cars with certain racing features cannot be legally used on normal roads during normal traffic hours, knives that can cut people cannot be used in normal homes or sold to normal consumers.  If it were possible to create a knife that will cut meat but not humans, I don't see what's wrong with requiring a surgeon license to buy a human-cutting knife.

But this has very little to do with anime.  It's just that things being illegal doesn't stop being people doing them.  Besides, laws can get overturned and worked around.

Now, you're just being really stupid. [back from work] Because there's more usages than cutting meat with a knife? Because of millions of other reasons?

You're no longer even attempting to try and show a point. All you're doing is stating that "Hey, my ideas are stupid, but I have a right to say these stupid ideas, and YOU CAN'T STOP ME OR SAY I'M WRONG!" You're right, I can't stop you from saying them, but I have the same right to tell you how stupid your ideas work, and how they logically don't make sense. You state that companies should try to make money from fansubbers, and all you offer are illegal ways, or ways that would actually cause them to lose money, not make money.

The base idea is fine "they should try to make money". That's all fine and dandy, it's the moment you say anything after that, where you totally look like a fool for even suggesting such horrible ideas.

"Companies should go out, and hold up fansubbers to knife point and make them hand over all of their money to the companies... that way companies will make money during times they aren't making money from sales! ISN'T THIS A GREAT IDEA!?!?!?!?!"

[Tony]

I guess I shouldn't be hanging around this sandbox, but every once in a while, it's fun to play around.

Why do you say that you shouldn't be playing here?  (Does that apply to me too?)  I think it's good that you play.  I think it helps give the feel that Fanime really is "by fans, for fans" rather than having aloof authority figures that come in only to Give Official Word or Hand Down the Law.

Don't mind me; I'm just being a jerk.  ;D It's just a feeling I have for myself, so please do continue.

Anyway, as Pyron said in many more words, fansub groups and industry can't get in bed. There's a little logic issue for you! - for them to work together, the fansub groups can't actually do any subs; they'd have to stop, and hence lose a lot of their usefulness (and their name - as fans that sub), in order to do so.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point.  Technically, fansubbers just can't distro.  I believe there shouldn't be anything technically illegal about creating a list of text translations.

Maybe! That's a good question. I dunno how to exploit that, but yours is one idea.

Heh, actually, I don't think Nyxyin's ideas are necessarily stupid. In fact, it maps to a business model used by thousands of legitimate, funded, even public companies today. It can be made viable, though I think it's a bit bubble-ish.

As a side note, can we stay away from similies and metaphors? They're distracting...