Best of...ROMANTIC DRAMA

[PyronIkari]

That was fascinating.  Thanks for the links.

Still, he was referring to "Ghetto School".  I was at a US "Ghetto School" for a year, and kids were doing rather annoying things, and teachers were supporting them.  For example, a boy threw gum in my hair (I have very long hair), and when I complained to the teacher, she laughed and told me that being a tattle-tale is bad.  My brother was part of a candy-selling fund raiser, and some gang held him at gun point and took his money.  Nobody did anything about that either: what can you do about someone with a gun?  It's just life in the ghettos, and that's why it's so important to be able to get out of it.  At first, my mom sent us to private school, but it was about an hour and a half each way to get to the private school.  Then, my mom borrowed someone else's address and phone number to send us to a different public school that's just outside the area, and we had to remember and write down this other address and phone number every time the school gave us a form to fill out.

Le sigh. First you misinterperet what was meant by "ghetto school" in Japan. Secondly, you missed the point in the article as well as in comparison to what I said. Random targets, compared to actual bullying. As well as, state of the overall, compared to actions and capabilities of the faculty in response.

With all that bullying and automated grade advancement no matter how poorly kids did, did Pyron seriously try to say that the Japanese education system is better than ours...?  Our elite can probably easily toast their elite any day, and it's probably why so many people work so hard to come to America for college.  It's just that we have a lot of ghettos that drive down our statistics.  In order to be good, we have to leave the bad behind, and we can't let all the dead weight drag us down.

And le sigh, again. At this point I will state, you could be a graduate at Harvard, with a 4.0 and it wouldn't matter, because your views are so narrow that you don't understand a thing about a "different culture". The Japanese education system, IS better than the US'. The school system and discipline, power, etc are not. The education in most of Europe, and the more civilized areas in Asia are better than the US', again though, I am only speaking of the education system itself, not discipline, the state of the schools, etc. etc. etc.

I love how quickly you jumped to state this though...

Our elite can probably easily toast their elite any day, and it's probably why so many people work so hard to come to America for college.

And isn't it the same for the other? How many Americans want to study in other countries? Because you know, the fact that it is a chance to study in a foreign land,and to experience foreign culture, has absolutely nothing to do with it right? It's merely because schools in other countries are SO HORRIBLE compared to the US, that everyone wants to study in the US.

You also missed the point of how the articles were linked to apply to that "KareKano is unrealistic... and Hana Yori Dango is a little more realistic in terms of bullying".

There's a lot of issues that you aren't even looking at, all you do is point out a few things, misinterperet them, and then act like your position is right. The elite of America may or may not be able to trump the elite of Japan... so what. Look at the majority of Japanese students compared to the US. There are so many cultural issues involved, how they're raised and how they're told they're supposed to be in Japan compared to the US. In the US, a lot of parents teach their kids "it's okay to not be smart, just do what you like, be whoever you want to be." In Japan it's totally different. You're basically raised and taught to be a drone, and that you as an individual comes second to the greater good. Being different in Japan is bad, and usually how you become a target of bullying. By being different, you're stating that you are better than the others, and they will not think twice to remind you that you are no one, and that you are easilly erased. Hence, the story of students getting completely ignored by their classmates for years. It's what drives some of them to suicide. Or if they're different, they'll get "treated" differently.

Japan's school system has a lot of problems, and a lot of the times the parents are to blame. This doesn't change how messed up the US school system is as well. The majority of Japanese students do well, and it reflects, because they are pushed to do well, and the curriculum matches. In the US, the curriculum is far lower than most other countries, and it's hard not to fail if you put in minimal effort.

This is why I hate talking about other cultures(specifically Japan) with other people. Most of them assume they know about the other culture and make bad assumptions, or they instantly compare it to the US(and badly at that). I'm far from an expert in Japan, but I try to understand it from their side and why things happen the way they do and don't jump to conclusions on a few facts, but try to put into consideration all the contributing factors.

[Nyxyin]

The writing and the condensing yes... but the characters themselves didn't change.

They did in a way.  The anime only covered the first eight? volumes of a 21 volume manga series.  What was revealed about Arima later very drastically revised someone who's realistic and understandable into a total soap opera.  It's very realistic at that age to not know what you want, so you end up just doing what you think is expected.  And, in trying so hard to do what's expected, it's realistic to not know who you are to the point that nobody else can know who you are either, and thus, while everybody knows your name, you have no friends.  It's realistic to be afraid of who you might really be because you only know that the person isn't the same person as this image that you've created.

Basic themes and ideas can reflect real life

Isn't that what "realistic" is?

Humans are very whimsical, and when people are banking on popularity, they have to realize that.  Yukino became a target because her standing slipped.  She stopped getting the scores that marked her as "godly intelligent", and she exposed herself as manipulative.  Manipulative people just aren't popular if people know they're being manipulated, and there's bound to be a backlash.

Oh... you don't think that students know they aren't being manipulated in this way?

Depends on what you mean.  For "popularity", as long as you're willing to keep up enough pieces of the illusion, many people are more than happy to meet you halfway and not pry too hard.  People like the ideals that get presented too, and they want to believe such things are real.  It doesn't take a "perfect" mask to maintain the illusion.

You don't think any of the students go "Hey, our 'leader' is basically controlling me and that I'm just a total tool that is following along".

That's completely different.  There's a huge difference between being a "leader" and being "popular".

People telling her not to fight back

And Yukino already knew this without being told.  She told Arima that he can't do anything about it.

During the anime, Arima didn't have any particularly odd mental or social issues either.  It's only in the manga that Arima was a psychological mess.

Uh... ... ... Arima didn't have any mental or social issues?[/quote]I didn't say he didn't have any issues at all -- I said that he didn't have any particularly odd ones in the anime.  He did have issues, but the ones he had during the anime were normal.

Yes, now, are you going to say that US schools and JP high schools are exactly the same?

Not at all.  Still, Yukino and Arima didn't go to a top tier school.  And, if, like in the bullying article, they can't be held back and they can pass without doing any of the work (if bullies are such a real influence), how good can their classes be?

Besides curriculum level(US public school ranks pretty low in terms of difficulty), time span of classes, days per week, amount of work assigned, club hours and dedication, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Are you going to tell me, you put all of these into consideration when you decided to compare yourself with Japanese High School students who are in sports clubs etc?

Which is why I mentioned stuff like the hospital volunteering and the outside piano competitions.  If, every week, I spent the piano practice, tennis practice, hospital volunteering, part time job, chess meets, AP review sessions, etc. etc. etc. and the commute time in between all of them on what the Japanese kids have to do, I think it'd be rather equivalent.  In between all that, I still watched TV for an hour a day and had time to read a fantasy novel (the standard ~300 page types) per week.

Not to mention that both Arima and Yukino admitted they weren't naturally smart, and they only got to that point through hours upon hours of studying?

Yukino admitted that she wasn't naturally smart.  Arima might've agreed just to make small talk, but in the anime, it was clear that he was naturally smart.

Other than the angsty manga flaws, what does Arima have that he didn't have?

... You realize that the angsty problems... is what made Arima, Arima.

His anime angst was realistic, and lots of people have similar problems.  The full-blown form of his manga angst was total soap opera.

Citing comparison of comic to real world, only works... if you understand what is happening in the comic and its real world comparison.

What makes a work of art a masterpiece is that it's universally applicable.  If it's only understandable in the context of a specific "real world comparison", like "Japanese bullying", then it's generally considered to just not be very good.  The "real world" is different things to different people.  Every school has some form of an Arima and Yukino: a male and female valedictorian or a homecoming king and homecoming queen.  I didn't know internationally famous rock stars, but I knew lots of musicians, and I did travel a few hundred miles to enter piano competitions.  I don't know any published authors with full novels out, but I knew a few that were entering and winning national short story contests.  (One of them does have two published books out now.)

When you compare things but take out major factors, or compare things to unrealistic examples, it doesn't work.

The major factors are the human emotions, and those are very realistic.

Yukino and Arima are impossible characters in that they can put on a perfect mask, despite their real lives and problems outside of the social setting.

The mask doesn't have to be very perfect.  When you get enough pieces in place, a lot of people are willing to fill in the blanks.  Only my prom date ever asked what I did when I got home; everybody else was happy to assume that I was always studying and that I never watched TV without ever asking me.  Even if I were to tell them, they probably wouldn't believe me anyways.  I never once said, "Sorry, I can't go", but whenever I was around when people were inviting others out to parties, they would just say, "I'd invite you to my party too, but I'm sure you're too busy."

Arima was barely holding his own mentality together, and lived only for his foster parents, and never showed a sign of weakness or pain, ever.

In the anime, Arima was fine until Yukino came along.  He was too busy trying to live up to this idea he had of what he had to do, and he didn't have time to contemplate his identity, his real personality, his weaknesses, his pain, or what he might want.  When Yukino showed up, for the first time, he suddenly wanted something for himself that wasn't in line with what he thought he's supposed to want, and that's when his issues started.

After her change, nothing really changed at all with her school life, her real life change was that, she had friends instead of spending her life studying.

Being able to have friends is a huge change.

Yet she was still at the top despite her barely studying anymore, spending her time with her new friends and Arima etc.

A good deal of the time she spent with her friends and with Arima was spent studying.  And she was no longer a top student.  She dropped way below the top five.

It's hard for me to even think of any decent series that are realistic to be honest. Genshiken is all I can think of off the top of my head.

You live in a very different reality then.  Genshiken is very much a parody and was always intended to be a parody.  ;)

[Nyxyin]

You seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

More later, but I have errands to run.  I'd like to introduce two ideas:
1) The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations.
2) Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her.

[Jun-Watarase]

Yes, now, are you going to say that US schools and JP high schools are exactly the same?

Not at all.  Still, Yukino and Arima didn't go to a top tier school.  And, if, like in the bullying article, they can't be held back and they can pass without doing any of the work (if bullies are such a real influence), how good can their classes be?

Okay. You totally ignored my previous post... but anyway, it's not just about PASSING school. You have to do well enough to advance into a decent school. I've already explained this in my previous post.

I stopped caring in high school and had extremely low grades, but I did well on tests. I never did any of my work... EVER. It caught the attention of the school, they discussed matters with me, I end up taking a few extra exams and I graduate 2 years early and am now in my 2nd year of college at age 17. You can't do that in Japan.

Besides curriculum level(US public school ranks pretty low in terms of difficulty), time span of classes, days per week, amount of work assigned, club hours and dedication, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Are you going to tell me, you put all of these into consideration when you decided to compare yourself with Japanese High School students who are in sports clubs etc?

Which is why I mentioned stuff like the hospital volunteering and the outside piano competitions.  If, every week, I spent the piano practice, tennis practice, hospital volunteering, part time job, chess meets, AP review sessions, etc. etc. etc. and the commute time in between all of them on what the Japanese kids have to do, I think it'd be rather equivalent.  In between all that, I still watched TV for an hour a day and had time to read a fantasy novel (the standard ~300 page types) per week.

Again, the American curriculum isn't very difficult in comparison to any major country's academic standards. American mentality is a lot more liberal, students have the time and freedom to do extra-curricular activities and hobbies without necessarily affecting their school work significantly because school isn't as strict. They don't expect as much from you, as a student-- it's as long as you get things done. In America, the system is pretty much... as long as you work hard, you'll pass with a good grade. It doesn't matter whether or not you're smart, because they just want to encourage you to try. In Japan/Asia, they don't necessarily praise you for trying, rather, they EXPECT you to do your work and they focus on how well your test-scores are based on your intelligence. Who you are, intellectually, is ranked by that number by your peers, your family, and your teachers. We don't have that sort of pressure, here.

It's hard for me to even think of any decent series that are realistic to be honest. Genshiken is all I can think of off the top of my head.

You live in a very different reality then.  Genshiken is very much a parody and was always intended to be a parody.  ;)

Actually... Genshiken IS pretty much the most realistic series I can think of right now, too. (NHK ni Youkoso is pretty realistic, but it has its moments.) Your views on life are pretty limited. It's not bizarre or anything, but it seems that you have no trouble believing the fantasy-variations of how life is in a drama series... but you fail to understand that the characters in Genshiken behave in a way that real people behave. Perhaps not people YOU know, but it's not so far-fetched to understand that the characters in Genshiken are pretty realistic. It's a series about a club full of otaku and one normal girl, with realistic characters that behave, feel emotions, and react to things as an actual person would. (Except Kohsaka. Saki isn't completely unrealistic, rather, just unlikely. But if they were to exist, the way the other characters interact and react to them are realistic.) If the characters existed in the real world, they would blend right in just fine. They're not eccentric, they're animated manifestations of realistic characters with personalities within the boundaries of this planet. I'm not just referring to just the characters, though. I mean the image of Japan, though a parody, IS Japan in Genshiken as a whole-- the locations, the people, media, characters, are all J-a-p-a-n-e-s-e.

I don't really see how you misinterpret things so easily, though. You misinterpret anime series, their characters, plots, and meaning behind things... you SOMEHOW misread the blog entries I linked. As for the whole idea of bullying and academics in Japan, I understand that it's all foreign to you. That's also why you find Genshiken unrealistic... Your protesting pretty much leads to needing to repeat the same things over to you, somehow without you being able to understand anything.

You seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

More later, but I have errands to run.  I'd like to introduce two ideas:
1) The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations.
2) Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her.

Not to say these ideas aren't true, but you seem to firmly believe them to the extent that you have the idea that all humans are the same. Again, they're not-- at least in this scale.

[PyronIkari]

They did in a way.  The anime only covered the first eight? volumes of a 21 volume manga series.  What was revealed about Arima later very drastically revised someone who's realistic and understandable into a total soap opera.  It's very realistic at that age to not know what you want, so you end up just doing what you think is expected.  And, in trying so hard to do what's expected, it's realistic to not know who you are to the point that nobody else can know who you are either, and thus, while everybody knows your name, you have no friends.  It's realistic to be afraid of who you might really be because you only know that the person isn't the same person as this image that you've created.

Not that I cared to do it earlier since you made a lot of bad assumptions about Anno earlier. Anno got bored of KareKano after episode 5. That's why the quality of the series went to shit after that, why it only ran for that long, and seemed to abruptly stop with nothing happening, no kind of conclusion or anything close to it, and absolutely nothing happening(LOL YAOI). Those are themes that can be found in the series... however, that doesn't make it realistic.

Isn't that what "realistic" is?

WHAT? NO! Did you fail every English class you've ever had? Realistic means the events and occurances are very probable to happen in real life. Things that actually happen in real life, can be unrealistic because the occurance is very unprobable to happen. If I close my eyes at half court and randomly throw a basketball up into the air, how realistic is it, that it will land into the basket. Answer? Very unrealistic, even if there is a chance that it will happen. I could attempt it until it did happen, and the event will still be unrealistic. The events that occur in KareKano are extremely UNREALISTIC in that, the probability of the majority of situations and their outcomes would be extremely low based on natural human processes. The themes are comparable and applicable to real life, the events themselves are very unrealistic.

Depends on what you mean.  For "popularity", as long as you're willing to keep up enough pieces of the illusion, many people are more than happy to meet you halfway and not pry too hard.  People like the ideals that get presented too, and they want to believe such things are real.  It doesn't take a "perfect" mask to maintain the illusion.

LOL, Hi, you don't know much about Japan, so stop assuming your experiences are just like how Japanese people are. But you sorta prove a point of mine. It's impossible to maintain that perfect mask and illusion, Arima does in the cartoon and comic. YAY, DOESN'T THAT MEAN I'M RIGHT?!?!?!?

That's completely different.  There's a huge difference between being a "leader" and being "popular".

Oh this opens up such a huge arguement that it would be it's own 20 page subject. I suggest you re-evaluate thinking this, not on the "literal" but on the practical usages.

And Yukino already knew this without being told.  She told Arima that he can't do anything about it.

Uh... those two statements don't match up. My statement was about Hana Yori Dango. Yukino DID fight back, and that's how she turned the classes mind around. She told Arima not to do anything because it was "her fight" and frankly, in normal standards, if this was the case, and Arima did do anything, he would become a target too... WAIT... isn't that what happened in Hana Yori Dango? OH YEAH IT DID!

I didn't say he didn't have any issues at all -- I said that he didn't have any particularly odd ones in the anime.  He did have issues, but the ones he had during the anime were normal.

You seriously didn't pay attention to Arima's character then.

Not at all.  Still, Yukino and Arima didn't go to a top tier school.  And, if, like in the bullying article, they can't be held back and they can pass without doing any of the work (if bullies are such a real influence), how good can their classes be?

But they did go to a good school as evidenced as Yukino's sister studying hard to get into that school. You can't be held back, but if you don't pass entrance exams,you can't get into that high school. Do you think schools are like in the US where you go to schools based on where you live? And that Jr. Highs, and High Schools don't have entrance exams that you have to pass to get enrolled into... just because the US isn't like that? Again... Japan is not the US... stop acting like it is.

Which is why I mentioned stuff like the hospital volunteering and the outside piano competitions.  If, every week, I spent the piano practice, tennis practice, hospital volunteering, part time job, chess meets, AP review sessions, etc. etc. etc. and the commute time in between all of them on what the Japanese kids have to do, I think it'd be rather equivalent.  In between all that, I still watched TV for an hour a day and had time to read a fantasy novel (the standard ~300 page types) per week.

Let's say, a person is in 1 club. On average that person would get home at around 6 or 7 pm according to how close they lived to school. If they were going to a nice school far away from them, and had to take the train home, 7 could easilly be turned to 8 or so. After eating dinner, they'd have about 2 hours of "free time" a day on weekdays, which according to the cartoon and comic, was spent studying and only studying because both of them worked hard to be on the top and weren't naturally smart. Just to let you know in retrospect. I never studied and had I done homework, I would have gotten A's in all my AP classes as well. I spent all my time playing games, and literally never opened my text books outside of when required to in class. So you saying you got all A's in your classes without studying means nothing to me. The curriculum in the US is a joke. I aced almost every essay I wrote in AP english without reading a single book/short story/poem.

Yukino admitted that she wasn't naturally smart.  Arima might've agreed just to make small talk, but in the anime, it was clear that he was naturally smart.

Now you're just making assumptions to save your arguement with no basis on it. He was naturally talented, but he proved he had to constantly study to keep up, otherwise his grades wouldn't have slipped.

His anime angst was realistic, and lots of people have similar problems.  The full-blown form of his manga angst was total soap opera.

Only up to the part where they introduce his family. If you think the level of his psyche was realistic or common, you really don't have any grasp of the state of things. His conditioning was made extreme on purpose to show that even the seemingly most perfect people, are often times the most broken fragmented people. If you think that a lot of people don't care or live for themselves at all, and only live to be a mantle piece to make your adopted parents happy, and to make them think nothing is wrong... you are seriously nuts. He was void of emotion. Nothing he did was for himself, and all an act to appear like nothing was wrong. An act made because of how his relatives treated him when he was young, and to prevent his adopted parents from being talked down to.

Or are you completely ignoring all that?

What makes a work of art a masterpiece is that it's universally applicable.  If it's only understandable in the context of a specific "real world comparison", like "Japanese bullying", then it's generally considered to just not be very good.  The "real world" is different things to different people.  Every school has some form of an Arima and Yukino: a male and female valedictorian or a homecoming king and homecoming queen.  I didn't know internationally famous rock stars, but I knew lots of musicians, and I did travel a few hundred miles to enter piano competitions.  I don't know any published authors with full novels out, but I knew a few that were entering and winning national short story contests.  (One of them does have two published books out now.)

And you're still missing the point. Your defenition of a masterpiece is bull. Nothing is universally applicable. If I showed the Mona Lisa to a random African tribe do you think they'd stop and go "Wow this is quite a painting". Your average person has no clue why the Mona Lisa is a masterpiece at all. Most people, if presented with the real Mona Lisa wouldn't even think that it's the real painting seeing that it's slightly bigger than a post card. Do you think everyone understands and appreciates Bach or Chopin? Most people don't get a damned thing about their music at all. You contradict yourself greatly by stating all this universal application then state "The 'real world' is different things to different people.

You say every school has it's Arima and Yukino, and give off their great achievements. But you're missing out on the point of the comic because one of the most prominant themes in the series was their relationship and real selves behind those achievements. That out of all of the people they knew, Arima and Yukino were the most broken and fragmented characters. They didn't understand themselves at all nor each other until near the end of the series. Everything "perfect" about them was a lie. A charade of appearances, not who they really were at all. So are you stating, that ever valedictorian, every home coming queen and king, aren't who they are... but instead broken fragmented people and their achievements are lies? Arima and Yukino started to discover actions and merits, and worth through each other after realizing how fragmented everything was and it took them years to do so. But you seem to have missed all of that, and everything this story was about.

The major factors are the human emotions, and those are very realistic.

That is the result, not the agent that creates the event. Why did those feelings come to light? Because of event A causing event B, which made character Y feel P. Comics are full of unrealistic events to portray those feelings, the feelings being real, doesn't make the event real.

The mask doesn't have to be very perfect.  When you get enough pieces in place, a lot of people are willing to fill in the blanks.  Only my prom date ever asked what I did when I got home; everybody else was happy to assume that I was always studying and that I never watched TV without ever asking me.  Even if I were to tell them, they probably wouldn't believe me anyways.  I never once said, "Sorry, I can't go", but whenever I was around when people were inviting others out to parties, they would just say, "I'd invite you to my party too, but I'm sure you're too busy."

What you do at home is no longer the mask. Since no one can see you. But I like how you are still arguing the wrong thing. You SHOULD BE arguing that masks are only to make others feel at ease, and not for the personal gain of the person wearing them. But you aren't, and you're basically stating "Hey you don't have to lie perfectly, just well enough so that people believe you". Think about that...

In the anime, Arima was fine until Yukino came along.  He was too busy trying to live up to this idea he had of what he had to do, and he didn't have time to contemplate his identity, his real personality, his weaknesses, his pain, or what he might want.  When Yukino showed up, for the first time, he suddenly wanted something for himself that wasn't in line with what he thought he's supposed to want, and that's when his issues started.

Wow... totally off. Arima has been broken ever since he was a child. But I already explained this.

Being able to have friends is a huge change.

But her academic life didn't change at all which is what I was stating.

A good deal of the time she spent with her friends and with Arima was spent studying.  And she was no longer a top student.  She dropped way below the top five.

And that changed after it was brought to light. But think about time restraints etc. They didn't exist. They brought up the point that they were spending too much time not studying and being together, and all of a sudden they are studying and stuff. I would like to know... what time this was that they had to do this. Unless days started suddenly becoming 28 hours and what not. You don't have a lot of free time as a kid in Japan.

You live in a very different reality then.  Genshiken is very much a parody and was always intended to be a parody.  ;)

Uhm... ... ... no it's not. It's a VERY realistic look into otaku culture with 2 exceptions. Saki and Kousaka. Saki and Kousaka are supposed to be the extreme ends and catalysts of a lot of realizations. Again, another series I knew would be misinterpereted when I heard it got turned into an cartoon.

James: Mike, Genshiken is getting turned into a cartoon.
Mikey: hahaha dude, I bet a bunch of Americans are going to watch it and laugh, and not realize that it's a reflection of actual otaku-dom... what a lot of them "claim" to be.
James: I just hope that idiots realize that this is the real fandom and don't think that it's funny for the wrong reason. I can watch it and laugh and realize that this is what happens in real life.
Mikey: Oh you know they will, they always do. Not like they care to actually learn about their fandom or the truths behind anything anyways. NEKO KAWAII BAKA HENTAI YAOI!
James: Shut up. I hope you die in hell.

That's a convo that me and my friend had about 4 years ago. And oh how true it is.

More later, but I have errands to run.  I'd like to introduce two ideas:
1) The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations.
2) Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her.

Yes, and some humans are capable of listening to others that have more experiences and knowledge about subjects, you seem to not be one of them and act like your limited experience and knowledge is worldy accepted as the only truths.

[Moogleborg]

Whoa geez, calm down here....I mean sure, stuff like realism is important in a drama, but lets not try to cause some drama here, shall we!?

[Nyxyin]

it's not just about PASSING school. You have to do well enough to advance into a decent school.

If the Japanese determine school via test scores, it means that there are good schools and bad schools in Japan, just like there are good schools and bad schools here.  Not all US schools are alike, and that would seem to suggest that not all Japanese schools are alike.  There are private schools in the US that require an exam, and there are (or maybe "were" by now) programs even in public school that require exams.  The stratification problems are probably worse in Japan because the exams are so ubiquitous: all the delinquents and low achievers would end up segregated into the worst schools, while the good ones that do well on exams end up in a different reality, so to speak.  But that doesn't mean that the we don't have our equivalents.  "The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations."  It's like the Japanese saying that all Americans have to worry about guns.  Sure, many Americans carry guns, and most Americans do worry about guns, but there's a huge variation in how different Americans experience guns, and some Americans in some areas might worry about guns less than all Japanese.  A Japanese person going to Texas or Missouri could easily write (and be right) about how the whole office takes off and goes shooting and drinking for fun "in America" and still not be right about how many Californians spend their time.  According to the stories, back when Megumi Hayashibara came to California as a guest of an anime convention, she asked to the organizers to take her to a shooting range, expecting that all Americans would just know how to do that.  This idea that we Americans regularly use shooting ranges is realistic for some Americans and not for others.  "Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her."  "Realistic" varies a lot depending on what each person experiences.  When East Palo Alto was the murder capital of the world, how "realistic" would that have felt to the residents of Atherton and Los Altos?

you SOMEHOW misread the blog entries I linked.

The idea that the blogger can refer to one school as "Ghetto School" and another school as "School of Peace" means that there are schools of different levels in Japan.  How is that wrong?  I didn't mean a "literal ghetto" as opposed to areas that just aren't as good as others.

It doesn't have to be a "literal ghetto" for kids to have access to guns.  It just takes the parents not paying attention, and that can happen anywhere.  The median household income in the city around Columbine is $73,000, and 45.5% had at least a college degree.  (In contrast, the city of Santa Clara -- not the best area in the world, but not too shabby, and certainly not a "literal ghetto" -- has a median household income of $69,466 and 42.4% college graduates.)  Columbine didn't happen in a "literal ghetto".  (That's partly why it made news.)

Also, some pretty bad bullying must've taken place in Columbine.  However, with access to guns, the bullies can only go so far before they get blown away.

You seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

Yes and no.  Yes, they have a different culture.  But they still have to eat, sleep, and breathe.  They still have the impulse to smile (however slightly) when amused, and they still bleed when they cut themselves.  They still feel joy and pain.  They still have people they like better than others.  And they're still a huge population with a large range of traits.

Again, they're not-- at least in this scale.

We might just be talking about different scales then.

It's impossible to maintain that perfect mask and illusion, Arima does in the cartoon and comic.

Arima and Yukino wear very different levels of masks.  Yukino is in touch with and in control of her mask.  For Arima, however, his mask isn't the same type of mask because he fooled himself too.  From Arima's point of view, there was no mask and no illusion -- and thus nothing to maintain.  All he knew about himself was that he wanted to be this superman for the sake of his foster parents.

Realistic means the events and occurrences are very probable to happen in real life. Things that actually happen in real life, can be unrealistic because the occurrence is very improbable to happen.

OK, we're partly disagreeing because we have totally different definitions of "realistic" and "probable" then.  Actually, I think we've all being playing very loose with this word, "realistic", and we never defined what "realistic" meant.

If we agree that time machines are neither real nor realistic, then the past has a probability of 1: if it already happened, then it's 100% "probable to happen".  Reality has to have a bearing on what one considers is "realistic".  Otherwise, the word "realistic" becomes meaningless, and one's idea of "realistic" becomes "fantastic".  In my world, reality is fundamentally very necessarily "realistic".  Also, probabilities in reality change depending on who the players are and what the environment around them is (and both tend to affect the other).  What's realistic for Bill Gates and Warren Buffet isn't at all realistic for a homeless person.

Whoa geez, calm down here....I mean sure, stuff like realism is important in a drama, but lets not try to cause some drama here, shall we!?

I'm sorry.  I didn't realize we weren't already calm.  What parts come off as not-calm?

Depending on the parts of "realism" you're referring to, I don't think realism is important in a drama at all.  If we're talking about realism in the setting, then I tend to prefer fantasy as a background.  If we're talking about realism in the human emotions and responses, then realism varies.  The relationship between realism and enjoyment vary a lot for me.  For example, I found KKnJ to be very enjoyable because it was so realistic (for me) and related a lot to what I and people I know have been through.  However, a lot of very realistic programs (like some of the "slice of life" drama) strike me as just boring.  Often, drama is enjoyable because it can't happen in reality, but it does show us what we wanted to happen or what we were afraid would happen if certain circumstances were to become real.

[Moogleborg]

I'm sorry.  I didn't realize we weren't already calm.  What parts come off as not-calm?

I was mostly refering to Pyrons responses to your opinions Nyxin. In a few of his responses, it seems like he exploded. Especially about the realism part. I mean is this a place to share opinions or a verbal battle!?

[Nyxyin]

Do you know of one that teaches that opposites attract?

All and none.  Think "yingyang".  All romance is a balance of opposites and likes, and every good couple (both real and fictional) has their differences and similarities.  In any good romance, you should be able to point to a whole bunch of traits that show that they're opposites plus another bunch of traits that show that they're alike.  Both "opposites attract" and "birds of a feather flock together" are simultaneously correct.  Humans are very complex, and there are always very many factors in play.

[Jun-Watarase]

it's not just about PASSING school. You have to do well enough to advance into a decent school.

stuff

You see, schools in Japan ARE pretty much very similar to each other. It's all a matter of which one has a better reputation. The better the reputation of the school, the higher the test score is required to be to get into it. In any country, there are good and bad schools... but comparing American schools with Japanese schools creates a whole different range. Even poor schools, by Asian standards, would be pretty tough by American standards. Also keep in mind that America, in comparison, is a HUUUUUUGE country compared to tiny Japan. Society in Japan in all regions differ only slightly, whereas in America, differences could be very dramatic. Over history, Japan prefers not to change, so people have remained relatively the same within the country for decades.

you SOMEHOW misread the blog entries I linked.

The idea that the blogger can refer to one school as "Ghetto School" and another school as "School of Peace" means that there are schools of different levels in Japan.  How is that wrong?  I didn't mean a "literal ghetto" as opposed to areas that just aren't as good as others.

Again, nicknames like "Ghetto School" and "School of Peace" are exclusive to his blog and his experiences. I didn't suggest that all schools are the same; they do have their differences, but still do believe that academics in Asia are more strict than American schools are.

You seem to have the idea that America and Japan are similar, though. They're not.

Yes and no.  Yes, they have a different culture.  But they still have to eat, sleep, and breathe.  They still have the impulse to smile (however slightly) when amused, and they still bleed when they cut themselves.  They still feel joy and pain.  They still have people they like better than others.  And they're still a huge population with a large range of traits.

Yeah, okay. I was well aware that they're all human... not that I had ever suggested that they were anything but. The cultural differences between America and Asia, especially Japan, (almost literally) are on opposite ends of the planet. Using that as an argument to defend your lack of understanding for it is pretty weak.

Again, they're not-- at least in this scale.

We might just be talking about different scales then.

Or your scale is far too general to have an understanding of things. It's like you're looking at every breed and species of canines and calling them all dogs, whereas domestic breeds are totally different from wolves and dingos. America, Japan, hell, Australia... they're all on the same planet, but they're different countries.

I'm sorry.  I didn't realize we weren't already calm.  What parts come off as not-calm?

I was mostly refering to Pyrons responses to your opinions Nyxin. In a few of his responses, it seems like he exploded. Especially about the realism part. I mean is this a place to share opinions or a verbal battle!?

Ohoho, bias. From what I can see, Nixyin, Pyron, I, and everybody else have been quite calm. I know he can be pretty mellow in person, but if that's Pyron exploding, I can't imagine how badly his ass gets kicked if he ever got into an actual argument with a woman. =P

[Nyxyin]

I was mostly refering to Pyrons responses to your opinions Nyxin. In a few of his responses, it seems like he exploded. Especially about the realism part. I mean is this a place to share opinions or a verbal battle!?

Ah, OK, I can see how that can be read as an explosion, but I get the impression that lots of people can do that very calmly on the Internet.

It's like video games.  From some points of view, kids are sitting there quietly and impassively while pushing buttons very quickly.  (Granted, it varies: some kids throw their whole bodies around to play video games, but other kids move nothing but their fingers.)  From other points of view, the kids are running over pedestrians, beating up other people, learning bad language, shooting things down, and immersing themselves in all sorts of horrible and degenerate emotions.

I tend to be in the "it's nothing more than special effects on the screen" camp.  For me, unless I have solid evidence to the contrary, caps lock and "!?" are just a bunch of keystrokes that are very easy to press.

[PyronIkari]

If the Japanese determine school via test scores, it means that there are good schools and bad schools in Japan, just like there are good schools and bad schools here.  Not all US schools are alike, and that would seem to suggest that not all Japanese schools are alike.  There are private schools in the US that require an exam, and there are (or maybe "were" by now) programs even in public school that require exams.  The stratification problems are probably worse in Japan because the exams are so ubiquitous: all the delinquents and low achievers would end up segregated into the worst schools, while the good ones that do well on exams end up in a different reality, so to speak.  But that doesn't mean that the we don't have our equivalents.  "The variation within large enough populations can easily be larger than the variation between the populations."  It's like the Japanese saying that all Americans have to worry about guns.  Sure, many Americans carry guns, and most Americans do worry about guns, but there's a huge variation in how different Americans experience guns, and some Americans in some areas might worry about guns less than all Japanese.  A Japanese person going to Texas or Missouri could easily write (and be right) about how the whole office takes off and goes shooting and drinking for fun "in America" and still not be right about how many Californians spend their time.  According to the stories, back when Megumi Hayashibara came to California as a guest of an anime convention, she asked to the organizers to take her to a shooting range, expecting that all Americans would just know how to do that.  This idea that we Americans regularly use shooting ranges is realistic for some Americans and not for others.  "Any human is capable of processing only a very tiny fraction of the experience around him/her."  "Realistic" varies a lot depending on what each person experiences.  When East Palo Alto was the murder capital of the world, how "realistic" would that have felt to the residents of Atherton and Los Altos?

Le Sigh again. Jun pretty much discussed everything about JP schools that I would have said but the second half of this... makes me wonder. So you're basically stating that "realism is dependent on place and area". Realism is about probability as I already stated. If something is likely to happen compared to unlikely to happen. Now stating the whole gun thing. Yes, it would be unrealistic for say... a bunch of office mates in let's say, Irvine, Ca, to go shooting after they get off work every weekend. And it is realistic to say that it is in Texas(PS, it's not). It's more likely to happen in Texas, but still not as realistic as the number is quite low still. But just for the sake of arguement...

Now, what happens in the series is very unlikely to happen in Japan, I can atest to that, and so can anyone that knows a decent amount of the social life in Japan. Now the question is, is it likely to happen in the US. And once again, I will say no. I've put a pretty decent run down of the characters and who they are, and the extremes of what they are. Are there people sorta similar to Arima and Yukino, sure. A lot of people have self-identity issues, a lot of people are good at academics and sports... however, the level of extremity is not even close. If someone was at the level of Arima and Yukino in the real world, in the US, they would be in hardcore therapy. They'd be taking all kinds of different medications, and probably not be put into school. You miss a huge thing about Arima. Arima... was not fine before Yukino. Yukino is what made Arima better, because prior to that he wasn't human. He was nothing more than a drone that lived for the sake of an image. That's why Arima pushed Yukino away from him, because she was getting close to him, and he didn't want that image jeapordized. If she found out his secret, it would ruin everything he's done for the past odd decade.

The characters in themselves are unrealistic. The whole scene about how long it went before they held hands, and kissed, how they treated the relationship, everything about it was unrealistic. It's a fairy tale story in terms of progression and innocence. PS: Anno hated KareKano when he realized Arima and Yukino had sex, because to him it destroyed the innocence of two characters he loved. PSS: Your average Japanese student doesn't make it past 16 without losing their virginity, and may of them lose it by 14. It's extremely unrealistic to find an 18 year old normal Japanese girl. The ones that are virgins are usually socially inept or outcasts.

The idea that the blogger can refer to one school as "Ghetto School" and another school as "School of Peace" means that there are schools of different levels in Japan.  How is that wrong?  I didn't mean a "literal ghetto" as opposed to areas that just aren't as good as others.

It doesn't have to be a "literal ghetto" for kids to have access to guns.  It just takes the parents not paying attention, and that can happen anywhere.  The median household income in the city around Columbine is $73,000, and 45.5% had at least a college degree.  (In contrast, the city of Santa Clara -- not the best area in the world, but not too shabby, and certainly not a "literal ghetto" -- has a median household income of $69,466 and 42.4% college graduates.)  Columbine didn't happen in a "literal ghetto".  (That's partly why it made news.)

Also, some pretty bad bullying must've taken place in Columbine.  However, with access to guns, the bullies can only go so far before they get blown away.

And again, you don't have any understanding of Japanese schooling. And you automatically assume that intelligence/exam scores is a direct interpretation of how "good/bad" the person is/are. I'm going to let you know in advance... you have it backwards. The worst students in Japan in terms of bullying, are usually the smartest kids. They have the capability to lead masses, manipulate others, and torture others. The failure kids, usually are the ones that are just bullies in the simplest terms. The ones that take money and what not to feel better about themselves. These aren't the biggest problems. It's the smart ones that bully to make others feel worthless that are the bigger issue.

Arima and Yukino wear very different levels of masks.  Yukino is in touch with and in control of her mask.  For Arima, however, his mask isn't the same type of mask because he fooled himself too.  From Arima's point of view, there was no mask and no illusion -- and thus nothing to maintain.  All he knew about himself was that he wanted to be this superman for the sake of his foster parents.

It's so obvious that you're building an arguement based on what I said prior. But no, you're wrong. He is in touch and realizes it. Again, he would not have pushed Yukino away if he wasn't aware of it. He wouldn't have kept only 1 single friend, yet still did not tell that friend about the details of his life. He was very aware of what he was doing, and that's what made him perfect in action. It was only eventually that Yukino broke down his wall that he started to change. It was exactly what he was afraid of, but it was exactly what "he needed". He had it all planned and organized since he was a child. Again, your analysis makes me wonder quite a bit at how much attention you actually paid to the stories you read.

OK, we're partly disagreeing because we have totally different definitions of "realistic" and "probable" then.  Actually, I think we've all being playing very loose with this word, "realistic", and we never defined what "realistic" meant.

If we agree that time machines are neither real nor realistic, then the past has a probability of 1: if it already happened, then it's 100% "probable to happen".  Reality has to have a bearing on what one considers is "realistic".  Otherwise, the word "realistic" becomes meaningless, and one's idea of "realistic" becomes "fantastic".  In my world, reality is fundamentally very necessarily "realistic".  Also, probabilities in reality change depending on who the players are and what the environment around them is (and both tend to affect the other).  What's realistic for Bill Gates and Warren Buffet isn't at all realistic for a homeless person.

Again... just because something happens, does not make it realistic. One in a million things happen all the time, but they are still unrealistic and unlikely event. Oh, if something happened in the past, that doesn't mean the probability to happen is 100%. that means that there is a chance it will happen in a set amount of attempts. Okay, let's take for example, something incredibly huge and major. Is getting struck by lighting realistic. If I go stand outside in a storm, is it realistic I get hit by lighting? Many people in the past have been struck by lightning before, by your reasoning and logic. it is 100% probably to happen, that I will get struck by lightning then.

So all of those times in the past I was struck by lightning and lived and didn't notice/feel a thing then right? Because you clearly stated, if it already happened in the past, the probability of it happening is 0. If I flip a coin heads, the next time I flip that coin, it will be 100% heads right? Because... it happened in the past, therefore it is 100% probably to happen". Each individual action has it's own probability. Happening in the past means nothing. Back to my first example. I blindly throw a ball from half court. The probability of it happening is not 100%, it is probably like 1 in 560,000 or something.  CAN IT HAPPEN. the probability of it possibly happening is 100% unless the feat in itself is impossible, but it doesn't mean that it will, or is likely to happen.

Here's an old thing my science teacher discussed with us concerning realism, probability, and science. Nothing is 100%. There is a likeliness and unlikeliness in every event. Random factors beyond our imagination may always take place, but chances are, they won't happen. If I bounce a ball... what will happen? The ball will bounce back with the same amount of force, minus the loss of energy from friction, heat, and absorbtion through the air correct? WRONG. Just because that is the most likely and realistic event, does not mean that is what is going to happen. What if there is a small pebble that none of us could see and it made the trajectory change and shoot to the left? What if... the ball explodes because of a change in heat and air pressure that none of you realized because it was so miniscule it would be unmeasurable to humans. Both the latter events are so unlikely to happen, that you could bet on it bouncing back and probably win every single time you did it in your life span, however the possibility still exists that something different might happen. This is science though. Knowing that we're probably right about something, but knowing that things could change at anytime. Science in itself is the "current understanding" not a law that guarantees it to happen. What we know now, as scientific fact can change at any time by forces we do not understand yet.

He has a doctrine in both biology as well as physics, and even though I learned close to nothing in this class, I will remember that speech forever.

Basically, you're right, we have different definitions of "realistic". Mine is correct, and yours is not.

Depending on the parts of "realism" you're referring to, I don't think realism is important in a drama at all.  If we're talking about realism in the setting, then I tend to prefer fantasy as a background.  If we're talking about realism in the human emotions and responses, then realism varies.  The relationship between realism and enjoyment vary a lot for me.  For example, I found KKnJ to be very enjoyable because it was so realistic (for me) and related a lot to what I and people I know have been through.  However, a lot of very realistic programs (like some of the "slice of life" drama) strike me as just boring.  Often, drama is enjoyable because it can't happen in reality, but it does show us what we wanted to happen or what we were afraid would happen if certain circumstances were to become real.

Every story that wants to accomplish something must contain some point of realism in it, otherwise your average person would not be able to relate or understand it at all. There has to be a control basis that allows people to put themselves into a position and attempt to understand what is going on. Outside of pure comedies, there is always a point of realism, not matter how fantastical the story is. Humans, are humans. Physics are physics. But there will always be a random unrealistic factor. The loser character ends up with the beautiful amazing secondary character. A random person finds magical powers.

The point of most stories is the "if that happened to me" factor. An unlikely, unrealistic situation that is created by stupid dumb luck, or another force which makes the impossible happen.

All and none.  Think "yingyang".  All romance is a balance of opposites and likes, and every good couple (both real and fictional) has their differences and similarities.  In any good romance, you should be able to point to a whole bunch of traits that show that they're opposites plus another bunch of traits that show that they're alike.  Both "opposites attract" and "birds of a feather flock together" are simultaneously correct.  Humans are very complex, and there are always very many factors in play.

Actually no. "Both opposites attract" and "birds of a feather flock together" are not simultaneously correct. The idea of them are meant to be on high levels. Opposites means that most traits between the two are very different almost to extremities. And for Birds, most traits are extremely similar, almost to extremities.

It has been scientifically shown in thousands of studies, that opposites rarely work out, as those sharing many similar traits often times do work out. As a side note though, opposites often time have more passionate flings, despite their short time span, while similar like, are not as passionate but have more consistency.

Are you going to argue about defenitions again?

[Nyxyin]

You see, schools in Japan ARE pretty much very similar to each other.

In what way?  If all kids that pass a test aim for schools with good reputations and all kids who fail the test end up at other schools, then it pretty much necessarily creates a different mix of people and a different social environment.  The curriculum might be the same across the board, but the type of people in the schools just logically can't be if they're segregated via testing.

5% of the junior high schools in Japan are private while 95% are public.  Only 45% of the junior high schools had computers by 1989, which means 55% didn't.  Apparently, some schools are "elevator schools", and others aren't.  Wouldn't that create a different social environment too?  They have a few private schools that cater to specific minorities, and they even have a few public schools for the handicapped.

[Nyxyin]

If we agree that time machines are neither real nor realistic, then the past has a probability of 1

Okay, let's take for example, something incredibly huge and major. Is getting struck by lighting realistic. If I go stand outside in a storm, is it realistic I get hit by lighting? Many people in the past have been struck by lightning before, by your reasoning and logic. it is 100% probably to happen, that I will get struck by lightning then.

The probability that the event of a coin being flipped yesterday and turning up heads is 100% if it actually did turn up heads and 0% if it didn't actually turn up heads.  The probability of the past ever happening is 100%.  "Hindsight is 20/20."  The probability of the past occurring again in the future, however, is a different issue, but the past is the past and the probability is 100% that it happened.

Here's an old thing my science teacher discussed with us concerning realism, probability, and science. Nothing is 100%.

That's true about predictions and expectations.  But what has happened, no matter how unlikely it was before it happened, has happened.  After it happens, it's 100% likely to ever occur because it has already occurred.

What we know now, as scientific fact can change at any time by forces we do not understand yet.

True.  If we figure out time travel, then things go haywire.

Opposites means that most traits between the two are very different almost to extremities.

No two humans can be that different.  We all share something like over 95% of our DNA.  We all live on the same planet.  We all have to deal with the same gravitational constant.

It has been scientifically shown in thousands of studies, that opposites rarely work out, as those sharing many similar traits often times do work out.

Scientific studies show that particular opposite traits do not work out and particular similar traits do.  Scientific studies have also shown that it's most common for couples to share between 25% to 75% of traits in a general personality inventory.  Couples with too many different personality traits have a lower percentage of long-term success, but the same goes for couple with too high of a percentage of similar traits.  But, well, scientific studies about personalities and relationships tend to very poorly constructed to the point of being invalid anyways.  For any hypothesis about personalities and relationships, I'm sure a casual web search will pull up several studies supporting the hypothesis and several studies that disagrees with it.

[PyronIkari]

The probability that the event of a coin being flipped yesterday and turning up heads is 100% if it actually did turn up heads and 0% if it didn't actually turn up heads.  The probability of the past ever happening is 100%.  "Hindsight is 20/20."  The probability of the past occurring again in the future, however, is a different issue, but the past is the past and the probability is 100% that it happened.

And none of this applies to this discussion. All that shows is that, something CAN HAPPEN and HAS... that doesn't make the event realistic or even likely to happen. Robert got struck by lightning. That doesn't mean getting struck by lightning is a realistic event, it happens sure, but is so unlikely that chances are it won't happen. Some people have been struck by lightning twice, which is even more unrealistic and still very unlikely. People win the lottery all the time, does that mean winning the lottery is realistic? Longshot chances are not realistic events. Relationships that begin in Jr. High ending in marriage and lasting 60+ years... EXTREMELY unrealistic, but it happens.

Seriously... what in god's hell are you trying to argue? That, because something happened in a story, or happened before in the history of mankind, that it said event is realistic? Spell it out for me, because you are making absolutely no sense at all.

That's true about predictions and expectations.  But what has happened, no matter how unlikely it was before it happened, has happened.  After it happens, it's 100% likely to ever occur because it has already occurred.

Not only did you miss the point of that entire speech, what you said is still wrong. "100% likely to ever occur because it already occured." Wooly Mammoths will walk the earth again. I will be in another car crash where I should have died, but some how came out completely unscathed as it has happened twice to me before, therefore it is 100% likely to happen to me again right? An event happened, means that it happened. It has no bearing on the chances or probability of it happening again.

No two humans can be that different.  We all share something like over 95% of our DNA.  We all live on the same planet.  We all have to deal with the same gravitational constant.

Now you're just being stupid. Basic concept of understood usages of words. "Opposites" in terms of personalities does not mean literal opposites, because it's impossible to be a literal opposite.

Ask any psychologist if "Which is true in terms of human relationships, "Opposites attract" or "Bird of a feather Flock Together" and you will get the second answer.

Btw, the basic Psychology 1 hind sight test that you are pulling this from doesn't impress anyone. It sure as hell doesn't impress me. The basis of the test is to show that hindsight makes an answer sound correct, even if it's almost completely false. Opposites attract, is a used cliche heard quite a bit, so it sounds true, despite realistically, it being completely false in practice. People with little in common rarely work out long term. Birds of a feather, doesn't mean "exactly the same" but in general, it means "very similar" in the same way "Opposites attract" does not mean completely opposite. You're screwing up your own analyzation because of self imposed errors in terminology and basic usage.

I don't care, what school you went to, what GPA you had, what honors you got, this show of intelligence you're attempting is bull, as the logic behind everything you're saying doesn't make sense.

[Nyxyin]

Seriously... what in god's hell are you trying to argue? That, because something happened in a story, or happened before in the history of mankind, that it said event is realistic? Spell it out for me, because you are making absolutely no sense at all.

I seem to have gotten my message across: reality necessarily has to have bearing on what is "realistic".  If something has happened, then the probabilities have changed.  If wearing tall metal rods as caps were to become fashionable and lightning was hitting lots of people every day, then people's idea of "realistic" have to include getting hit by lightning, no matter how unrealistic it was before.  The way humans have designed social statistics, every time something happens, the probabilities change.

Now you're just being stupid. Basic concept of understood usages of words. "Opposites" in terms of personalities does not mean literal opposites, because it's impossible to be a literal opposite.

Agreed, so all that's different between "opposites" and "likes" are the random lines people draw based on their limited points of view.  From some points of view, Yukino and Arima are very much alike because they're both top students in the same school.  From other points of view, they're very much opposites because Arima is not in control while Yukino is.  Likewise, in Hana Yori Dango, Makino and Doumyouji are arguably opposites because Makino is only middle-class while Doumyouji is rich.  But they're alike in that they're both very stubborn.

Ask any psychologist if "Which is true in terms of human relationships, "Opposites attract" or "Bird of a feather Flock Together" and you will get the second answer.

If you ask a biological anthropologist, you get the first answer: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb416491.htm  "Research has shown that when we are young and not looking to get married, we tend to date those who are like ourselves," explains Fisher. "But when we are considering someone to spend our life with, we find ourselves seeking someone who will complement ourselves rather than be exactly like us."  As I said, there are many factors, and psychology is far to complex for our state of research to make any proper conclusions.  Psychologists are often not taken very seriously scientifically as their margin for error is much higher (and their probabilities change very much faster) than that in more respected forms of science.

the logic behind everything you're saying doesn't make sense.

Fine, I'll bite.  This once.  And only because the setup in this case is far too amusing to not share.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that logic makes no sense to you.  People who have even a minimal understanding of logic generally recognize ad hominems as fallacies and at least try to refrain from using them.

There.  Part of me feels much better now.  However, part of me also recognizes that I've now helped drag the conversation into the dirt (not to mention myself), and in the long run, this helped the ad hominem team win.  I still hope someone else got a chuckle out of it anyways.

Since I'd hate to leave it on that note, back to the anime...

The characters in themselves are unrealistic. The whole scene about how long it went before they held hands, and kissed, how they treated the relationship, everything about it was unrealistic. It's a fairy tale story in terms of progression and innocence. PS: Anno hated KareKano when he realized Arima and Yukino had sex, because to him it destroyed the innocence of two characters he loved.

The characters are very real.  Granted, most people like that are geeks and nerds in the US, but Arima and Yukino are not in the US.  If the smart ones are often the bullies, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that the geeks and nerds are considered the social elite.  Maybe it's not normal behavior for the majority of the student population, but if bullying is so widespread, then it seems reasonable that the majority of the student population knows and gossips about the tiny minority that is really so innocent.  I hated that Arima and Yukino had sex too, and even if the bottom 99.9% of students have sex, Tsuda decided to set her story outside of that.  Depending on the constraints that the reader decides are important, the story can be realistic or unrealistic.  As far as I can tell, you seem to be saying that the top 0.1% is "unrealistic"; after all, it's very highly improbable that any given person is in the top 0.1%.  However, from my point of view, most people in the school have heard about the people in that top 0.1%.  So, because, say, 60% of the school talks, gossips, or briefly thinks about their student body president, class valedictorian, last innocent virgin, etc., and they know them to be real, then that 0.1% of people are "realistic" because 60% of the school are influenced by their existence.  Maybe it's not probable that any given office in Texas takes off to hunt turkeys on Thanksgiving, but a whole lot of people recognize it as reality that Cheney went hunting in Texas and shot someone, and because so many people recognize it as real, I think of Texans going hunting as realistic.  Furthermore, perception of "realistic" does change as people have more exposure.  Stepping back and taking a look at general statistics, then getting divorced is rather probable.  However, when zooming in and getting closer to the situation, any given demographic or any given couple getting divorced may not be.

As for Genshiken, how many people in Japan are anime/manga freaks in a club that is neither the anime club nor the manga club?  How many of those people manage to publish their own comics, make their own cosplay, or become manga editors?  I don't get the impression that those statistics are very high.  Yes, it might be realistic from the point of view of otaku but not the rest of the population, just like KareKano might be realistic from the point of view of valedictorians but not the rest of the population.

It's extremely unrealistic to find an 18 year old normal Japanese girl.

If it's "unrealistic" to find someone who's "normal", then I have to wonder what either "normal" or "unrealistic" means in this context.  In my world, and by the definition of "probability" being used, "normal" has to be "realistic".  ;)

Joking aside, if we decide that we're working within the constraint of only the one top-ranked female student from each school, I wonder what's the statistics for those #1 females in each school still being virgins...  Statistics -- and thus perceptions of probabilities -- change based on which constraints people accept.

[PyronIkari]

I seem to have gotten my message across: reality necessarily has to have bearing on what is "realistic".  If something has happened, then the probabilities have changed.  If wearing tall metal rods as caps were to become fashionable and lightning was hitting lots of people every day, then people's idea of "realistic" have to include getting hit by lightning, no matter how unrealistic it was before.  The way humans have designed social statistics, every time something happens, the probabilities change.

No you didn't prove or show anything. You can make something unrealistic realistic over time, and with a HUGE social change... but fortunately, "what if" scenerios and "possibly" don't make it "realistic" in the real world. Realistic can change, just like science can. But right now, it's not. Is it realistic that tomorrow everyone will leave their houses naked? No it isn't. Right now, it is unrealistic for that to happen. In ten years, it might be acceptable, and fashionable(though that is unrealistic too), but right now, it is unrealistic. I can create a situation where anything is realistic, but again, we're in the real world where there is a real base of things. Probabilities CAN change, but it must be a huge MAJOR change for it to become "realistic" compared to the original "unrealistic" state. And honestly... it's trends that change the probability, not the occurance of the event. Flipping a coin and getting heads 2 times in a row, does not make the third flip more likely to be either heads or tails. The probability is the same. The third flips probability is still 50/50(minus human error, and things like minor weight differences due to chipping or anything like that).

You did take AP stats right? This is supposed to be one of the first things you learn.

Agreed, so all that's different between "opposites" and "likes" are the random lines people draw based on their limited points of view.  From some points of view, Yukino and Arima are very much alike because they're both top students in the same school.  From other points of view, they're very much opposites because Arima is not in control while Yukino is.  Likewise, in Hana Yori Dango, Makino and Doumyouji are arguably opposites because Makino is only middle-class while Doumyouji is rich.  But they're alike in that they're both very stubborn.

... You point out specifics, the terminology is about overall and general instances. I can find millions of similarities, and millions of likes, but their is still a general air of people that creates differences. Based on your reasoning, everyone is an exact neutral, which isn't the case, otherwise there would be no such things as similar people or different people. It's about the general base of ther personality, and how they view the world and different things. General views and opinion. Not specifics...

If you ask a biological anthropologist, you get the first answer: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/7/prweb416491.htm  "Research has shown that when we are young and not looking to get married, we tend to date those who are like ourselves," explains Fisher. "But when we are considering someone to spend our life with, we find ourselves seeking someone who will complement ourselves rather than be exactly like us."  As I said, there are many factors, and psychology is far to complex for our state of research to make any proper conclusions.  Psychologists are often not taken very seriously scientifically as their margin for error is much higher (and their probabilities change very much faster) than that in more respected forms of science.

No... that's if you ask google about percentages and specifics. But nice try at trying to "prove me wrong" instead of actually paying attention to the point of it all.

Fine, I'll bite.  This once.  And only because the setup in this case is far too amusing to not share.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that logic makes no sense to you.  People who have even a minimal understanding of logic generally recognize ad hominems as fallacies and at least try to refrain from using them.

There.  Part of me feels much better now.  However, part of me also recognizes that I've now helped drag the conversation into the dirt (not to mention myself), and in the long run, this helped the ad hominem team win.  I still hope someone else got a chuckle out of it anyways.

Since I'd hate to leave it on that note, back to the anime...

Nice...  Seeing that everything I said is on the basis of logic and nothing you said follows logic. Such as "LOL If it happens in the past, that means it's realistic!" Also your little comment of how "Genshiken is only a parody and not realistic". Lovely, when it's baseless and completely incorrect. You're not using logic, you're trying to argue like it's a science paper essay, only you're missing the conclusive evidence, and the logical chain of reasoning as to why. Your whole point was that...

It's realistic, because I think so based on what I've seen in my life. I replied with how your experiences are extremely minimal especially about a foreign country you know nothing about. In addition to that, your experiences/examples are only remotely similar, and do not match up to the magnitude in which the original basis is the subject. I can eat a 5 hamburgers. That is eating a lot(for sake of arguement). If someone eats 500 in a cartoon, my eating a lot of hamburgers(let's even say 50), it doesn't mean that it's the same as eating 500 in cartoon. Eating 500 is unrealistic, my example of eating a whole crap load, does not mean it is realistic. This is what you have done to support your "it's realistic".

After that, you started stating that "it's realistic because it happened in the past" to which i replied it doesn't. Statistics do not change, without major influence, as well, statistics do not change because of a prior outcome. As I have displayed with the coin flip example.

So again, I do not understand the logic in your examples... because the logic doesn't exist. Your arguements do not link together, but instead only try to disprove the last thing I said. If you follow everything I said,the all add up together, but yours jump ship and try to only disprove the last thing I said.

The characters are very real.  Granted, most people like that are geeks and nerds in the US, but Arima and Yukino are not in the US.  If the smart ones are often the bullies, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that the geeks and nerds are considered the social elite.  Maybe it's not normal behavior for the majority of the student population, but if bullying is so widespread, then it seems reasonable that the majority of the student population knows and gossips about the tiny minority that is really so innocent.  I hated that Arima and Yukino had sex too, and even if the bottom 99.9% of students have sex, Tsuda decided to set her story outside of that.  Depending on the constraints that the reader decides are important, the story can be realistic or unrealistic.  As far as I can tell, you seem to be saying that the top 0.1% is "unrealistic"; after all, it's very highly improbable that any given person is in the top 0.1%.  However, from my point of view, most people in the school have heard about the people in that top 0.1%.  So, because, say, 60% of the school talks, gossips, or briefly thinks about their student body president, class valedictorian, last innocent virgin, etc., and they know them to be real, then that 0.1% of people are "realistic" because 60% of the school are influenced by their existence.  Maybe it's not probable that any given office in Texas takes off to hunt turkeys on Thanksgiving, but a whole lot of people recognize it as reality that Cheney went hunting in Texas and shot someone, and because so many people recognize it as real, I think of Texans going hunting as realistic.  Furthermore, perception of "realistic" does change as people have more exposure.  Stepping back and taking a look at general statistics, then getting divorced is rather probable.  However, when zooming in and getting closer to the situation, any given demographic or any given couple getting divorced may not be.

You're missing so much. You're trying to put titles and completely side track everything. They are not realistic for a number of reasons. Their relationship, and how it proceeded. It's not unrealistic to be smart and score in the top 0.1%. It's unrealistic for them to carry the lives they had, be who they were, score in the top 0.1%, as well as a number of other things that all combined... make them who they were. "A few people do go turkey hunting in Texas near thanksgiving" is realistic." However "Texans go turkey hunting near thanksgiving" is a lie. Just because "some do" doesn't mean the generalized statement becomes true or realistic. Divorce is probable. In general the rate is about 50%. So stating that "a relationship ending in divorce is realistic" is true. Just like stating "A relationship not ending in divorce is realistic" is also true. There are many murder cases where a wife kills a husband, or a husband kills a wife. Stating that "A marriage will end in murder is realistic" IS NOT TRUE. The chances of it happening exists, but it's not realistic. Even if let's say it's more likely to happen in Kentucky over Washington. You could say "IT is more likely that a marriage will end in murder in Kentucky than Washington" but stating "A marriage in Kentucky will end in murder" IS NOT realistic at all.

You miss the point of what makes something realistic. A few facts does not make something realistic. All characters have realistic traits, but that doesn't make the character as a whole realistic. Ichijo from PaniPoniDash is a smart student and class president. But she is not a realistic character, seeing that she can talk to aliens, see things without any realistic way to, access to millions of items, poisons, can stand on ceilings, and a number of other things as well.

An extreme example, but a statement that, a few small facts of realistic personalities, does not make a CHARACTER realistic. Nor their situations.

As for Genshiken, how many people in Japan are anime/manga freaks in a club that is neither the anime club nor the manga club?  How many of those people manage to publish their own comics, make their own cosplay, or become manga editors?  I don't get the impression that those statistics are very high.  Yes, it might be realistic from the point of view of otaku but not the rest of the population, just like KareKano might be realistic from the point of view of valedictorians but not the rest of the population.

Most people do not, but their situations and their actions all are realistic, outside of Kousaka and Saki. How they act is very much like they do. Just to let you in, I visited the college and the club Genshiken was based on while in Japan. I'm in circles that are EXTREMELY similar to the people within the clubs. Personalities, spending habits, etc. etc. etc. are extremely similar. Their actions and thoughts are not to the point of extremity(outside of Kohsaka and Saki)that normal humans don't act like that. What about Genshiken is unrealistic? I know for a fact that some people on this forum are extremely similar to the characters of Genshiken. Maybe not exactly, but realistically close.  Karekano is unrealistic because you seem to only want to look at 1 fact or 1 characteristic at a time, instead of seeing a character for what they are.

If it's "unrealistic" to find someone who's "normal", then I have to wonder what either "normal" or "unrealistic" means in this context.  In my world, and by the definition of "probability" being used, "normal" has to be "realistic".  ;)

Left out the word "virgin", sorry about that.

Joking aside, if we decide that we're working within the constraint of only the one top-ranked female student from each school, I wonder what's the statistics for those #1 females in each school still being virgins...  Statistics -- and thus perceptions of probabilities -- change based on which constraints people accept.

Percentages change, but it doesn't change that it's unrealistic for a female in Japan to be a virgin by 18, and that it's realistic for a JP girl to lose her virginity by 16.

[Polaris3C]

"Post your favorite romance/drama series XP "

Where's the love?

[Jun-Watarase]

Opposites means that most traits between the two are very different almost to extremities.

No two humans can be that different.  We all share something like over 95% of our DNA.  We all live on the same planet.  We all have to deal with the same gravitational constant.

Again, you're looking at things on the wrong scale. I'm not going to argue the fact that, in this world, there really isn't "true individuality". No two humans can be completely different... but on a lower scale, no two humans can be exactly the same. We do all live on the same planet... put it on an astronomical scale, all humans are the same. At a higher scale, all animals are the same. At an even HIGHER scale, anything that EXISTS in the universe is the same. But pulling the "but, we're all the same!" card weakens your argument. We're not arguing whether or not everyone on the planet, every country, every culture is similar (Which is the scale you seem to be stuck on.)... We're talking about the differences of Japan/Asia and America. It makes a good difference on perspective.

As for everything else... seriously, no comment.

[Moogleborg]

"Post your favorite romance/drama series XP "

Where's the love?

Good question. XD