Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Important Pleze Read!)Possible Tourney For Fanime 09

[Blue Impulse]

Gee... how many people from DBR were there...?

How many so-cal smashers were there?

Quite a few.

[PyronIkari]

I'm sorry but that's an apples to oranges comparison.  Wall carry is controlled by the player, the player can manipulate positioning on the map so that their launchers will get wall combos.  A wall combo doesn't magically appear in the game like an item, it's ALWAYS there.  I don't see how comparing chance of the draw (item appearance) is comparable to me carrying you to the wall.  So you can drop that mizuki wins pic because he failed.

Pyron is right, however, in this isn't a major tournament.  I just figured last year that I'd make e-gaming as organized as the rest of the con and make it stand out in its own right.  Unlike most fighting games, Smash is indeed sitting on the wall between fighting and party games.  I might consider doing a brawl tourney (1v1v1v1) and a 1v1 item tourney instead of the professional this year.  In defense of no item rules, however, our turnout last year for "pro" format was overwhelming to say the least.  We had an Evo level turnout, most of which contained competitive players to my understanding.  If we were to turn brawl into a fun tournament, you have to keep in mind we'll have signups that will dwarf last year's. 

I'm still on the fence.

Oh, do you really want to try arguing with me JT? Let's take SCIII. I play Nightmare(hypothetically). We get tiny ring stage via random select. That random select stage, just gave me almost a guaranteed win, since I can ring out from 3/4 into the ring(as in my back is a 1/4 way from one edge they are 3/4 away from the other edge). Nightmare has such a HUGE advantage on that stage it's not even funny. Taki basically sucks balls on that stage. She's so limited since almost all of her 8 way run stuff puts her right next to the edge, that a lucky hit and I fall off.

Now on full wall stage, I'm at a disadvantage as Nightmare... period. Nightmares main game is aiming for a ring out, luck of the stage can mean losing or not.

The same could be said about smash. You realize a lot of characters are better on certain stages. There was a big issue about Final Destination and banning it, since Ice Climbers(in melee) have an advantage since it's way easier for them to land infinite since there's no way to really zone from them.

None of this is guaranteed though, and it's just minor things based on luck. You can easily argue the same for items in Smash. "You only won because you got that item". But if it was the other way, they could have only lost if the item was there.

I've lost in A3 tournaments because I was on 2nd player side. Due to "random" factors that happen to the 2nd player side that don't on the first player. Missed VC's because of 2nd player turn around in the corner.

I've almost lost GGXX tourney matches because of Faust super, I've also won GGXX tourney matches because of Faust super.

T4 is always Cage, but t5 was always played on random. Getting a non-wall stage compared to a wall stage, could mean winning or losing based on a random factor of luck. A player can utilize the wall, which could lead to that extra damage needed to win. If a non-wall stage happened, they wouldn't have had that, who knows what would have happened with that extra life. It could have been anyone's game.

Random factors always appear.

Yes, you want to remove factors that are completely random but a lot of being good, is being able to cope with random factors. You want a fun random factor that was the difference between winning and losing?

Hsien vs Amir 3s for 1000$. Amir tried to chip super Hsien. Hsien parried the first half, the crowd got so loud that he couldn't hear, and because of that mis-timed the gap between the rotations causing him to get hit. You want a random factor, there you go. The crowd. Should we now ban people from watching, since they cause noise which is now a factor that changes the state of playing?

Back to Smash... items cannot be called a legitimate game changer. You get lucky and a pokeball appears and it's legendary. It's up to the other player to cope. It's the same as if Faust's item super gets 2 mini fausts and a meteor. It's up to the other player to cope with the opponent getting the luck of the draw.

Items do not break the game, they just change it. To be honest, it changes to... how the game was meant to be played in nintendo's eyes. While I agree, that items off is a better judge of "seeing who is better at the match up between the chosen characters" I don't necessarily agree that items off is a better judge of who is the better smash player.  

[Mizuki]

I agree with impulse in the fact that an entire game can be turned around (in the bad stupid way) by items.

So can a wallcombo in Tekken, but as a fact us fighting game players have to deal with it.

I'm sorry but that's an apples to oranges comparison.  Wall carry is controlled by the player, the player can manipulate positioning on the map so that their launchers will get wall combos.  A wall combo doesn't magically appear in the game like an item, it's ALWAYS there.  I don't see how comparing chance of the draw (item appearance) is comparable to me carrying you to the wall.  So you can drop that mizuki wins pic because he failed.

I was using the Wall combo theory as in something dumb can easily turn something around (in a bad stupid way.)

[JTchinoy]

Then why don't use random stage in Brawl as well?  I honestly don't know why there's select stages for pro tournaments if we're arguing that randomness is a key component of fighting games. 

Agreed that the stage can determine the winner in fighting games.  Agreed it's a random factor effecting game (as I have the advantage in Tekken 6 during wall stages).  I still don't feel it's a comparable argument to turn on items.  My point in hating items on is the fact that you're mid game and you might kill them, then magically some random item of woohoo godliness appears.  That can turn that entire match around for no reason during the match.  Random stage is different.  Yes it's random, and it determines advantage FROM THE START of a match.  I find that knowing the stage from the get-go (thus being able to already know your game plan before that game starts) is extremely different from Brawl's "okay I'm going to kill him, fuck a laser sword or bomb dropped, fall back!"  A shorter explanation for anyone else reading is you can play based on the stage in a consistent manner.  You however, can't play a consistent style in brawl since you can't anticipate where and what item will drop.

A static random factor that effects the match before it starts is different from a dynamic random factor that can come at any given moment.  If random power ups started dropping randomly in a tekken match, I'd fucking turn that shit off.

Mizuki I assume the given fact that items are a random event didn't come to mind when you read the original quote.  You're arguing against "dumb things" not against a random factor.  I'll agree with you 100% that Tekken 6 walls are garbage.  Granted I 60% with jack on a whim and 70% with xiaoyu, I still can't wait for T6:BR to be released.  Your argument seems to be on a different wavelength from mine so I'll drop it as we aren't on the same page.

I don't even know why I'm debating with you guys on this.  I'm on the fence and I really don't care to support my argument.

[PyronIkari]

Then why don't use random stage in Brawl as well?  I honestly don't know why there's select stages for pro tournaments if we're arguing that randomness is a key component of fighting games. 

Agreed that the stage can determine the winner in fighting games.  Agreed it's a random factor effecting game (as I have the advantage in Tekken 6 during wall stages).  I still don't feel it's a comparable argument to turn on items.  My point in hating items on is the fact that you're mid game and you might kill them, then magically some random item of woohoo godliness appears.  That can turn that entire match around for no reason during the match.  Random stage is different.  Yes it's random, and it determines advantage FROM THE START of a match.  I find that knowing the stage from the get-go (thus being able to already know your game plan before that game starts) is extremely different from Brawl's "okay I'm going to kill him, fuck a laser sword or bomb dropped, fall back!"  A shorter explanation for anyone else reading is you can play based on the stage in a consistent manner.  You however, can't play a consistent style in brawl since you can't anticipate where and what item will drop.

A static random factor that effects the match before it starts is different from a dynamic random factor that can come at any given moment.  If random power ups started dropping randomly in a tekken match, I'd fucking turn that shit off.

Mizuki I assume the given fact that items are a random event didn't come to mind when you read the original quote.  You're arguing against "dumb things" not against a random factor.  I'll agree with you 100% that Tekken 6 walls are garbage.  Granted I 60% with jack on a whim and 70% with xiaoyu, I still can't wait for T6:BR to be released.  Your argument seems to be on a different wavelength from mine so I'll drop it as we aren't on the same page.

See my faust/zappa argument in GG. You have advantage and I throw a meteor, or I do super item drop and a bomb drops off screen. You have to go "oh shit" and back off. If you didn't see the bomb(which to be honest is super hard to see) and boom you get hit by bomb, then meteors and I juggle(which is 60% for free).

You act as if items are godly in Smash Bros. Items don't turn the tide that much. Some items are good. At the tourney that just past, a guy got 3 legendary pokemon in a row, which helped him win. But it's not like items are insta-win in smash bros. Great items appear, and you still have to utilize said item well for it to be in any way effective. The only thing that doesn't is hearts/life items. But with that being said, life items don't TURN THE BATTLE. You can be at 100% and your opponent at 20% and you can still beat him. Picking up life and going to 60% doesn't mean you'll win, and not getting that means you'll lose. Pulling a legendary doesn't mean you instantly won.

It just adds to strategy. An item appears. Learn to cope with what ever it is. Learn to counter how the item works, and know how to avoid it. If the item is in your favor, learn to utilize it so that it's not just another wasted item. JT you don't seem to realize how much run-away is part of smash. Using sonic or Pit and running under the map to avoid attacks, or to stall. Stuff like that is always happening.

Want a fun random factor? Doing a shoryuken or tiger uppercut in SF4 only to have it trade with your opponent, meaning, you get a free ultra, doing 40% because YOUR anti-air traded for some reason.

[Mizuki]

Mizuki I assume the given fact that items are a random event didn't come to mind when you read the original quote.  You're arguing against "dumb things" not against a random factor.  I'll agree with you 100% that Tekken 6 walls are garbage.  Granted I 60% with jack on a whim and 70% with xiaoyu, I still can't wait for T6:BR to be released.  Your argument seems to be on a different wavelength from mine so I'll drop it as we aren't on the same page.

I'm arguing about both just fyi.

[JTchinoy]

Want a fun random factor? Doing a shoryuken or tiger uppercut in SF4 only to have it trade with your opponent, meaning, you get a free ultra, doing 40% because YOUR anti-air traded for some reason.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  That game never ceases to disappoint me.  Dragon punch invincibility is gone I take it?

Indeed my items argument began to fail me as I read over it.  *shrug*

And Mizuki, if you care enough about your argument, please clarify how a controllable factor of tekken and a random factor of smash is an apples to apples comparison?  I still see apples to oranges.  Uncontrolled appearance mid game to static characteristic of the stage that never changes (except in 1 stage of tekken6)

[Mizuki]

Want a fun random factor? Doing a shoryuken or tiger uppercut in SF4 only to have it trade with your opponent, meaning, you get a free ultra, doing 40% because YOUR anti-air traded for some reason.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  That game never ceases to disappoint me.  Dragon punch invincibility is gone I take it?

Indeed my items argument began to fail me as I read over it.  *shrug*

And Mizuki, if you care enough about your argument, please clarify how a controllable factor of tekken and a random factor of smash is an apples to apples comparison?  I still see apples to oranges.  Uncontrolled appearance mid game to static characteristic of the stage that never changes (except in 1 stage of tekken6)

I meant overall T.T

[Kikkoman]

You act as if items are godly in Smash Bros. Items don't turn the tide that much. Some items are good. At the tourney that just past, a guy got 3 legendary pokemon in a row, which helped him win. But it's not like items are insta-win in smash bros. Great items appear, and you still have to utilize said item well for it to be in any way effective. The only thing that doesn't is hearts/life items. But with that being said, life items don't TURN THE BATTLE. You can be at 100% and your opponent at 20% and you can still beat him. Picking up life and going to 60% doesn't mean you'll win, and not getting that means you'll lose. Pulling a legendary doesn't mean you instantly won.

It just adds to strategy. An item appears. Learn to cope with what ever it is. Learn to counter how the item works, and know how to avoid it. If the item is in your favor, learn to utilize it so that it's not just another wasted item. JT you don't seem to realize how much run-away is part of smash. Using sonic or Pit and running under the map to avoid attacks, or to stall. Stuff like that is always happening.

It's just as JTchinoy said in his post. Items always spawn randomly, and if they happen to spawn right next to your opponent during your last stock, you are instantly put at a disadvantage. Sure sometime items may spawn in the middle and it creates a situation where you have to fight for it, but more often than not the items will create UNPREVENTABLE advantages to a certain player.

Q)"Items don't turn the tide that much. Some items are good."
R)Using words like those are very vague and doesn't prove anything, that's like saying  some items are good and some are bad, but none are good enough to turn the tide which is obviously false(remember that time you won a game because a bomb-omb/box popped up right on top of your opponent at the last second and sent him flying to his doom?).

Q)"At the tourney that just past, a guy got 3 legendary pokemon in a row, which helped him win. But it's not like items are insta-win in smash bros. Pulling a legendary doesn't mean you instantly won."
R)You just totally contradicted yourself there. True legendaries might not help you end the game instantly(lol @ insta win item) however they usually tip the scales because they are heavy hitting and are usually hard to avoid due to large AoE. It gives the person with a pokeball an unfair advantage with no balancing of power to the player who didn't get the pokeball.

Q)"Great items appear, and you still have to utilize said item well for it to be in any way effective. The only thing that doesn't is hearts/life items. But with that being said, life items don't TURN THE BATTLE."
R)I beg to differ, if a match was very even, and someone was at high percent(that usually happens in smash games doesn't it) and say they get a heart, or even a 50% pumpkin thing, it could heal them to a % which is below kill range. That basically means a second chance, FOR FREE. There is nothing to compensate the player that didn't get the heal, therefore putting him at an unfair advantage for NO REASON AT ALL.

Q)"It just adds to strategy. An item appears. Learn to cope with what ever it is. Learn to counter how the item works, and know how to avoid it. If the item is in your favor, learn to utilize it so that it's not just another wasted item. JT you don't seem to realize how much run-away is part of smash. Using sonic or Pit and running under the map to avoid attacks, or to stall. Stuff like that is always happening."
R)You can say items add to strategy. You can practice the art of grabbing items all day, but you will never be able to stop your opponent from grabbing the item if it is too far away from you, or say you are off the edge and an item appears(sucks for you doesn't it). You can learn the ways items work and how to avoid them as best as possible, BUT there are just somethings you just CAN'T avoid, examples could be the legendary pokemon(large area of effect, high damage), final smashes(some affect the whole map and are impossible to dodge, many others are one hit KO not to mention the smash ball floats around at random). Some items are impossible counter, items(again) like final smashes(heh good luck countering those), bomb-omb spawns on top of you, legendary/normal pokemon, assist trophies(good luck countering 2 flying ninjas that you can't get rid of), nearly any item actually. I think YOU don't realize what the true nature of smash is, run-away does not even begin to describe the amount of mindgaming involved(go visit smashboards.com, it will open your eyes). Not all characters can run under the map to avoid attacks, and sometimes you just can't get away in time(UNAVOIDABLE) so that is not a valid argument just because a handful of characters can stall.





If this is TL;DR for you basically I said "no items plz". Also JTchinoy would we be considering a possible ban on Metaknight? There have been quite a few discussions of it on smashboards and even a stickied thread with 400+ replies http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197057 There's also a poll here>>http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200718.

Looking forward to some good Smash games at Fanime.

[Mizuki]

It's just as JTchinoy said in his post. Items always spawn randomly, and if they happen to spawn right next to your opponent during your last stock, you are instantly put at a disadvantage. Sure sometime items may spawn in the middle and it creates a situation where you have to fight for it, but more often than not the items will create UNPREVENTABLE advantages to a certain player.

Have you ever played any fighting game before other than Smash? Unpreventable advantages to a player, I can name a few. Lets say I get full A-Groove meter in Capcom vs SNK2, you're K-groove at 1/4 life, and I'm Sakura. I activate at a range where you either block it or eat it. Eating it would cause you to die, blocking it would cause you to die from chip damage. You know how many times that's happened to me? I get pissed, but I deal with it and play it.

Q)"At the tourney that just past, a guy got 3 legendary pokemon in a row, which helped him win. But it's not like items are insta-win in smash bros. Pulling a legendary doesn't mean you instantly won."
R)You just totally contradicted yourself there. True legendaries might not help you end the game instantly(lol @ insta win item) however they usually tip the scales because they are heavy hitting and are usually hard to avoid due to large AoE. It gives the person with a pokeball an unfair advantage with no balancing of power to the player who didn't get the pokeball.

Oh god, I got hit by Paint the Fence (CvS2, Bison's Custom Combo), He has an unfair advantage! It's just like getting hit by a super or a high damaging combo in any fighting game.

Q)"Great items appear, and you still have to utilize said item well for it to be in any way effective. The only thing that doesn't is hearts/life items. But with that being said, life items don't TURN THE BATTLE."
R)I beg to differ, if a match was very even, and someone was at high percent(that usually happens in smash games doesn't it) and say they get a heart, or even a 50% pumpkin thing, it could heal them to a % which is below kill range. That basically means a second chance, FOR FREE. There is nothing to compensate the player that didn't get the heal, therefore putting him at an unfair advantage for NO REASON AT ALL.

Oh lord, I really hate to use this example, but here, Melty Blood. I activate Heat/Blood Heat mode. I'm gaining my life back!

Q)"It just adds to strategy. An item appears. Learn to cope with what ever it is. Learn to counter how the item works, and know how to avoid it. If the item is in your favor, learn to utilize it so that it's not just another wasted item. JT you don't seem to realize how much run-away is part of smash. Using sonic or Pit and running under the map to avoid attacks, or to stall. Stuff like that is always happening."
R)You can say items add to strategy. You can practice the art of grabbing items all day, but you will never be able to stop your opponent from grabbing the item if it is too far away from you, or say you are off the edge and an item appears(sucks for you doesn't it). You can learn the ways items work and how to avoid them as best as possible, BUT there are just somethings you just CAN'T avoid, examples could be the legendary pokemon(large area of effect, high damage), final smashes(some affect the whole map and are impossible to dodge, many others are one hit KO not to mention the smash ball floats around at random). Some items are impossible counter, items(again) like final smashes(heh good luck countering those), bomb-omb spawns on top of you, legendary/normal pokemon, assist trophies(good luck countering 2 flying ninjas that you can't get rid of), nearly any item actually. I think YOU don't realize what the true nature of smash is, run-away does not even begin to describe the amount of mindgaming involved(go visit smashboards.com, it will open your eyes). Not all characters can run under the map to avoid attacks, and sometimes you just can't get away in time(UNAVOIDABLE) so that is not a valid argument just because a handful of characters can stall.
NO REASON AT ALL.

OH LORD, did you say some FSes are unavoidable? PLEASE give me an example, other than Sonic, which is guareenteed a loss of life, but it's not like he has anything else! Mindgames, Uhm, you're talking about all this talk and not understanding what mindgames are added when items are involved? And Smashboards is a joke, why don't you go on Shoryuken.com, smash section, where you have people actually playing the game with items and not complaining about JACK SQUAT. Granted, some characters can NOT run under the map, it's called next round counter with another character, or learning to deal with it, if you want to stick with an awful character, then fine by me. I play one of the worst characters in CvS2 and I eat a lot of things I can deal with if I played another character, but hey I decide to keep playing this character.

Why don't you watch the Evo finals for Smash Brawl on youtube. Find them. I bet half the stuff you say is countered with those videos.
Scratch that, watch Keits' All-Brawl videos on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/Rockeits
And lol @ Meta Knight banning, that's a whole nother post I'll deal with tommorow.

[Kikkoman]

Have you ever played any fighting game before other than Smash? Unpreventable advantages to a player, I can name a few. Lets say I get full A-Groove meter in Capcom vs SNK2, you're K-groove at 1/4 life, and I'm Sakura. I activate at a range where you either block it or eat it. Eating it would cause you to die, blocking it would cause you to die from chip damage. You know how many times that's happened to me? I get pissed, but I deal with it and play it.

Oh god, I got hit by Paint the Fence (CvS2, Bison's Custom Combo), He has an unfair advantage! It's just like getting hit by a super or a high damaging combo in any fighting game.

Oh lord, I really hate to use this example, but here, Melty Blood. I activate Heat/Blood Heat mode. I'm gaining my life back!


OH LORD, did you say some FSes are unavoidable? PLEASE give me an example, other than Sonic, which is guareenteed a loss of life, but it's not like he has anything else! Mindgames, Uhm, you're talking about all this talk and not understanding what mindgames are added when items are involved? And Smashboards is a joke, why don't you go on Shoryuken.com, smash section, where you have people actually playing the game with items and not complaining about JACK SQUAT. Granted, some characters can NOT run under the map, it's called next round counter with another character, or learning to deal with it, if you want to stick with an awful character, then fine by me. I play one of the worst characters in CvS2 and I eat a lot of things I can deal with if I played another character, but hey I decide to keep playing this character.

Why don't you watch the Evo finals for Smash Brawl on youtube. Find them. I bet half the stuff you say is countered with those videos.
Scratch that, watch Keits' All-Brawl videos on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/Rockeits
And lol @ Meta Knight banning, that's a whole nother post I'll deal with tommorow.

Q)"Have you ever played any fighting game before other than Smash? Unpreventable advantages to a player, I can name a few. Lets say I get full A-Groove meter in Capcom vs SNK2, you're K-groove at 1/4 life, and I'm Sakura. I activate at a range where you either block it or eat it. Eating it would cause you to die, blocking it would cause you to die from chip damage. You know how many times that's happened to me? I get pissed, but I deal with it and play it."
R)Lol, sorry to say no I haven't really played any other fighting game seriously other than smash, although I have a friend who does and keeps trying to pull me into them ;D. The example you gave was(I'm assuming) some sort of power meter that charges up as you're fighting(due to hitting the opponent or getting hit?) and you do a combo in which I am cornered and I will die either way right? Well that can't be compared to getting an item, getting an item is an advantage randomly generated by the game which nobody can control, unlike the power meter in Capcom vs SNK2. Sure I can just DEAL with being killed by items and take it like a man, but I would rather just play a more "fair" game.(that's my opinion of a fair game though, may not be yours)

Q)"Oh god, I got hit by Paint the Fence (CvS2, Bison's Custom Combo), He has an unfair advantage! It's just like getting hit by a super or a high damaging combo in any fighting game."
R)Sorry again, I don't know what it takes to even initiate a Bison's Custom Combo(although I'm guessing it's some super move you get after charging up some power[and M.Bison character right?]). It's not an unfair advantage to get hit by a combo, the combo is in game and you can see it coming at any time. Having a pokeball pop-up next to your opponent and him throwing it is an entirely different matter because the ball did not exist before and is impossible to predict. You can see the combo coming in CvS2(I'm guessing again). Once again you can't compare a high damaging combo to high damaging items because both characters have high damaging combos in CvS2 while in Brawl, there is a random chance of either person getting a high damage item spontaneuously.

Q)Oh lord, I really hate to use this example, but here, Melty Blood. I activate Heat/Blood Heat mode. I'm gaining my life back!
R)Oh man I'm on a roll, I don't know what Heat/Blood Heat mode is. I'm guessing(for the billionth time) that both characters have Heat/Blood mode in Melty Blood. Like the previous argument this can't be compared to Brawl in which no one has the innate ability to heal(with the exception of ness and lucas absorbing stuff but that hardly counts). Items would mean a random advantage of healing to a random person and cannot be controlled, unlike Heat/Blood Head mode(which is not random I'm assuming).

Q)OH LORD, did you say some FSes are unavoidable? PLEASE give me an example, other than Sonic, which is guareenteed a loss of life, but it's not like he has anything else! Mindgames, Uhm, you're talking about all this talk and not understanding what mindgames are added when items are involved? And Smashboards is a joke, why don't you go on Shoryuken.com, smash section, where you have people actually playing the game with items and not complaining about JACK SQUAT. Granted, some characters can NOT run under the map, it's called next round counter with another character, or learning to deal with it, if you want to stick with an awful character, then fine by me. I play one of the worst characters in CvS2 and I eat a lot of things I can deal with if I played another character, but hey I decide to keep playing this character.
R)Zelda/Shiek's arrow is nearly instantaneous, as with some other FSes, and they have incredible range/hit boxes. Sure they are avoidable but nearly impossible to because of their speed which essentially makes it UNAVOIDABLE if used correctly. You can say "don't get hit" but that applies to every attack.  I know mindgames are added when items are involved, but the cost of those mindgames is the unbalancing of power in the game(I would take balance over item mindgames anyday). Smasboards is definitely not a joke, Mew2King, as well as other top level players have discussions there.(although I don't know how it compares to other hardcore fighting game boards out there). "it's called next round counter with another character, or learning to deal with it", what if there was no next round, what if it was your finals round or just any round, and losing means losing a ridiculous sum of money or being eliminated out of the tourney? I guess you'll just have to learn to deal with it. I never said I wanted to stick with an awful character, and not all non-flying/crazy recovery characters are bad.

Thanks for responding to my post, but please don't degrade me by saying that I can't handle items because you think I think they are too strong. I'm fine with playing with them, I would just prefer not to if possible. Haha and I don't have anything personal against you when I am in this discussion, don't want to be on the bad side of a moderator  ;D

[Mizuki]

I'm tired, I'll respond to what you posted yesterday, but don't be afraid to discuss stuff in a serious matter and make me wrong, I'll accept if I'm wrong if what I read seems to be a strong statement, and holds truth. Also, don't suck up to me, please.

[otakuapprentice]

I laughed so hard at all this.

[Kikkoman]

That's good to know...and I'm not sucking up to you >_> There's no benefits to sucking up to a moderator. And sucking up sucks in general lol.

[Mizuki]

I actually think obtaining and item is obtaining meter in my opinion. You have to fight for it in a way, and you can reap the rewards if you get it.

I see where you're going with the healing thing, and my response is basically, you gotta learn how to get his life back down.

IIRC you can dodge Shiek's FS on reaction, I've seen it done quite a lot.

Also, I don't think I mean you directly should change character, I was throwing it out there as an argument, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also, you should still watch the videos on Rockeits' youtube page =)

[PyronIkari]

Le sigh...

It's just as JTchinoy said in his post. Items always spawn randomly, and if they happen to spawn right next to your opponent during your last stock, you are instantly put at a disadvantage. Sure sometime items may spawn in the middle and it creates a situation where you have to fight for it, but more often than not the items will create UNPREVENTABLE advantages to a certain player.

Yes, items do that. This happened in Samurai Showdown 1 and 2 as well. Did that make the game unplayable? Did it make people bitch and complain that it was unfair? People get lucky and meat falls next to them, others get unlucky and a bomb falls next to them. OHNOS! If you can't cope with that, then you're not very good.

Using words like those are very vague and doesn't prove anything, that's like saying  some items are good and some are bad, but none are good enough to turn the tide which is obviously false(remember that time you won a game because a bomb-omb/box popped up right on top of your opponent at the last second and sent him flying to his doom?).

You're not even arguing something here. And you're wrong. If a bomb-om appears right on top of him at the last second... he should have saw it and avoided it. That's his fault. If a good item appears next to him, it's your job to prevent him from picking it up. That's what pressure is for. You can't just let your opponent do whatever he wants. This is key in any game. How is letting him pick up an item, any different than say... letting your opponent build meter in a different fighting game? In certain games, letting your opponent build meter is WORSE than your opponent picking up a pokeball in Smash. It's your job to make your opponent RISK picking up the item and not get hit by a combo. If you're staying far away and and trying to distance yourself... it's your fault that he picked up the item that spawned near him. You can see items spawning before they're able to pick them up, you have to react and prevent it.

Why the hell am I telling a smash player how to play? It's stupid.

This is honestly why I hate smash players. The majority of them don't play other games, so they think what they do is HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED. It honestly irritates me because they have such a narrow minded view.

In MvC2 you can run around all day with storm and it's near impossible for your opponent to hit you. The drawback of this is that, they can build meter freely. By allowing them to do so, you put yourself at a bad advantage to eat a lot of chip damage and maybe even a lucky super will hit when you're dashing away, which means you lose Storm off a 100% combo. If you're letting your opponent pick crap up, that's your fault. There is a random factor in items, we know that. Guess what though, that factor was MEANT TO BE IN THE GAME.

R)You just totally contradicted yourself there. True legendaries might not help you end the game instantly(lol @ insta win item) however they usually tip the scales because they are heavy hitting and are usually hard to avoid due to large AoE. It gives the person with a pokeball an unfair advantage with no balancing of power to the player who didn't get the pokeball.

I didn't contradict myself at all. I merely stated, he got lucky, and was able to utilize that luck to win. Here's something people don't understand about "balance". There is never 100% balance. Nothing is ever perfect, and that's what makes games fun. If everything was perfectly equal, you would never win against someone better than you. You would never lose to someone worse than you. That's what pure balance means. It's a perfect judgment of skill. I will use this as it is MY FAVORITE REFERENCE IN THE WORLD.

Was it unfair when Derice and Yul Brenner got tripped by Junior when they were trying to qualify for the olympics?

WAS IT FAIR WHEN THEIR BOBSLED BROKE APART, WHEN THEY WERE RUSHING THROUGH THE TUBES, POSSIBLY WELL ENOUGH TO WIN A GOLD MEDAL?

Did the olympics people let Derice and Yul Brenner rerun the qualifying run? Everyone knows that Derice was the fastest man in Jamaica. Just like everyone knew Sanka was the best Pushcar driver in ALL OF JAMAICA.

Did the olympic people let them redo their run on the ice? NOPE

Random factors are always there. Smash was meant to be played with items. You're no longer playing smash how it was meant to be played by turning them off. This is the hardest thing for smash players to get, and how Smash players differ from all other fighting game players. They don't seem to accept "this is how the game was meant to be played" and want to turn it into "this is how we SHOULD play this game".

R)I beg to differ, if a match was very even, and someone was at high percent(that usually happens in smash games doesn't it) and say they get a heart, or even a 50% pumpkin thing, it could heal them to a % which is below kill range. That basically means a second chance, FOR FREE. There is nothing to compensate the player that didn't get the heal, therefore putting him at an unfair advantage for NO REASON AT ALL.

It's not for free at all. They had to 1. get the item, and 2 utilize their second chance. You're saying there should always be compensation in a fighting game? I got hit by a super, where is my compensation. How come my opponent doesn't lose life? He guessed right in a 50/50 situation, where's my compensation? Sorry, you don't deserve any. It's not my fault that the item landed closer to him, and you failed to prevent him from picking it up.

R)You can say items add to strategy. You can practice the art of grabbing items all day, but you will never be able to stop your opponent from grabbing the item if it is too far away from you, or say you are off the edge and an item appears(sucks for you doesn't it). You can learn the ways items work and how to avoid them as best as possible, BUT there are just somethings you just CAN'T avoid, examples could be the legendary pokemon(large area of effect, high damage), final smashes(some affect the whole map and are impossible to dodge, many others are one hit KO not to mention the smash ball floats around at random). Some items are impossible counter, items(again) like final smashes(heh good luck countering those), bomb-omb spawns on top of you, legendary/normal pokemon, assist trophies(good luck countering 2 flying ninjas that you can't get rid of), nearly any item actually. I think YOU don't realize what the true nature of smash is, run-away does not even begin to describe the amount of mindgaming involved(go visit smashboards.com, it will open your eyes). Not all characters can run under the map to avoid attacks, and sometimes you just can't get away in time(UNAVOIDABLE) so that is not a valid argument just because a handful of characters can stall.

Bull... all items are counterable/avoidable. Just because you can't, and just because it is difficult doesn't make it impossible. The smash ball is free game. It's your fault for letting your opponent get it. You are too far from an item so your enemy pics it up? That's your fault for running away from him. That's part of strategy. Staying closer to your opponent to avoid this. I've already covered this though.

If this is TL;DR for you basically I said "no items plz". Also JTchinoy would we be considering a possible ban on Metaknight? There have been quite a few discussions of it on smashboards and even a stickied thread with 400+ replies http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197057 There's also a poll here>>http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200718.

Looking forward to some good Smash games at Fanime.

See this is hillarious too. Ban METAKNIGHT, he's top tier! Meta Knight isn't broken in anyway. He's a good character, but he's not godly. This is just whining because people don't want to try. We should ban Chun and Yun from 3S. Should ban O.Sagat/Claw from ST. We should ban Sagat/Cammy/A-groove/Roll Cancelling from CvS2.

Instead of whining that something is too good, figure out how to beat it. I've played low-tier characters in almost every game, BY CHANCE. And I don't whine about it. I've beaten V-Akumas in A3 with V-Mika. I've beaten MSP players with Ken/Sak/Akuma. I've beaten tons of Chuns/Yun/Ken players with Alex. And guess what in all of those cases, I had a HUUUUUUUUUUGE disadvantage for no reason, just because the character I play isn't top tier.

WHERE'S MY COMPENSATION?

[Kikkoman]

I did, and to say picking up items is like charging a power meter is no comparison. You can't choose when an item appears or who gets the item most of the time. You have no way to predict when items appear. However you can control when you hit the opponent when using a powerbar. Really don't even compare the two.

You can't just say "you gotta learn how to get his life back down", because that's saying "learn to play the game" because the game is all about getting life bars down. Look this matters most at endgame play, when most top level players(either in a pro tourney or just your casual tourney) should probably be of equal skill, it is really hard to just "be better" than someone that's equal to your skill level. Top level players don't just miraculously beat everyone else because they learn how to make a comeback. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN PRACTICE MAKING A COMEBACK AFTER SOMEONE GETS A HEAL BECAUSE THE GAME CONTINUES LIKE BEFORE THE HEAL. You can't just instantly up your skill level after he gets a heal, if you were already that good then why haven't you beaten him hands down in the first place? Between close matches, heals can really screw up the game for someone.

Look I know you can dodge Shiek's FS on reaction, but that applies to everything else(and duh it's in a line so you can guess where it'll be shot but that doesn't mean you can avoid it for certain). The point I was making wasn't that it was impossible to dodge, it's just that you have WAY LESS OF A CHANCE to dodge it because it is so dang fast as opposed to, say, Samus's charged shot or Lucario's.

Either way I hope JTchinoy comes here and makes a conclusion about items.

[PyronIkari]

I did, and to say picking up items is like charging a power meter is no comparison. You can't choose when an item appears or who gets the item most of the time. You have no way to predict when items appear. However you can control when you hit the opponent when using a powerbar. Really don't even compare the two.

You can't just say "you gotta learn how to get his life back down", because that's saying "learn to play the game" because the game is all about getting life bars down. Look this matters most at endgame play, when most top level players(either in a pro tourney or just your casual tourney) should probably be of equal skill, it is really hard to just "be better" than someone that's equal to your skill level. Top level players don't just miraculously beat everyone else because they learn how to make a comeback. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN PRACTICE MAKING A COMEBACK AFTER SOMEONE GETS A HEAL BECAUSE THE GAME CONTINUES LIKE BEFORE THE HEAL. You can't just instantly up your skill level after he gets a heal, if you were already that good then why haven't you beaten him hands down in the first place? Between close matches, heals can really screw up the game for someone.

Look I know you can dodge Shiek's FS on reaction, but that applies to everything else(and duh it's in a line so you can guess where it'll be shot but that doesn't mean you can avoid it for certain). The point I was making wasn't that it was impossible to dodge, it's just that you have WAY LESS OF A CHANCE to dodge it because it is so dang fast as opposed to, say, Samus's charged shot or Lucario's.

Either way I hope JTchinoy comes here and makes a conclusion about items.

Yes there is. It's called having clutch. That's what skill is.

As for the rest. Now you're comparing TIERS of characters. Some moves are good, some are crappy. But guess what, it's your job to learn to avoid things and to cope. The only reason to *BAN* something is if it breaks the game. If something is so ridiculous that it breaks the game. Items DO NOT do this in any way. All you have said is that "Items MIGHT help someone win". It is in no way a guarantee. It is in no way definite. Playing Chun in 3S over Alex MIGHT help me with more. But guess what, I'm not going to say it's broken. It's your job as a player to deal with what is thrown at you. Urien has unblockables in 3S. Banning unblockables isn't the way to deal with this... learning how not to get put into a situation where he can use it is the viable way to go.

As I said. I don't like Smash players for this reason. They don't want to learn and expand, they want to assume that their rules and guidelines are absolute. That anything outside of that, HAS to be banned.

[Kikkoman]

PyronIkari your posts are so large I can't respond to it all, but I'll give some main points as a last shot. After that I'll just stop because we won't come to a conclusion without JTchinoy. Please don't make a generalization of Smash players out there and lump me in with them as being narrowminded, if I was I wouldn't even be reading your posts and bother responding to them would I. I'm not bitching, or whining for that matter, just stating my points let's keep this argument clean.

Here are my points:
1) Items are random(PyronIkari you seem to not acknowledge that some items are unstoppable, remember the bomb-omb spawn over head? You can't dodge it if it's RIGHT ON YOU, not even if you shield or spot dodge or air dodge). And if you tell me "why were you in position to get hit by a bomb-omb spawning on top of you in the first place, you could've prevented it by not being there", then tell me, how am I supposed to know where they spawn? At least in a fighting game I know which direction the other character's combo is coming from.

2) Items add a luck factor. Here's a simple one, do you get combos just by randomly having your power meter suddenly filled up?(as in nobody hits you, you hit nobody but your powermeter instantly becomes full). That's like saying items are like combos because items give you extra power for no work at all(I wouldn't call an item popping up right next to you because your opponent hit you in that direction and the item just happened to spawn next to where you land "fighting for the item", it's just plain luck). Would you say combos have a luck factor?(and by that I don't mean you got lucky hitting your opponent so your power meter filled up a little, I mean hitting him once and filling your meter from empty to full in an instant).

3) Just because they're in the game doesn't mean you have to make use of it. Items/Smash Bros in general was meant to be a party feature/game and that's how I first played it. That's the way items are supposed to be used, to generate a fun/random factor into the game. It's the competitive community that ruled it out because as you know "tourneys are serious business D:<" lololol. Look if whatever is in a game is meant to be used, then shouldn't we all learn to play with all the characters, use every single one of them, learn to play with all the modes, giant, small, invisible, curry, light gravity, heavy gravity, falcon punch only mode? After all they are in the game, we should make use of it because that's how the creators wanted us to play it.

3) Why are you comparing Brawl to other Fighting games, there is no fighting game out there that is even close to it. Where is the power meter in smash? Where is the chip damage? Apples to Oranges


4) Owari, maybe I'll add more if you guys respond, but it honestly doesn't matter.

[PyronIkari]

Here are my points:
1) Items are random(PyronIkari you seem to not acknowledge that some items are unstoppable, remember the bomb-omb spawn over head? You can't dodge it if it's RIGHT ON YOU, not even if you shield or spot dodge or air dodge). And if you tell me "why were you in position to get hit by a bomb-omb spawning on top of you in the first place, you could've prevented it by not being there", then tell me, how am I supposed to know where they spawn? At least in a fighting game I know which direction the other character's combo is coming from.

This is bull. You have a good 3 seconds before the first impact frames appear, you can easily dodge as long as you're paying attention. That's part of it. You see an item spawn, do you stand there and pick up the item or dodge assuming it's a bomb. HEY ISN'T THAT PART OF STRATEGY?

2) Items add a luck factor. Here's a simple one, do you get combos just by randomly having your power meter suddenly filled up?(as in nobody hits you, you hit nobody but your powermeter instantly becomes full). That's like saying items are like combos because items give you extra power for no work at all(I wouldn't call an item popping up right next to you because your opponent hit you in that direction and the item just happened to spawn next to where you land "fighting for the item", it's just plain luck). Would you say combos have a luck factor?(and by that I don't mean you got lucky hitting your opponent so your power meter filled up a little, I mean hitting him once and filling your meter from empty to full in an instant).

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww And this is where your lack of knowledge shines. You don't need to hit anyone to build meter. You can whiff attacks. It's not instant, but it builds. Now as I said. the point is, if you're not putting pressure on your opponent, it means you're allowing him to move freely. Letting your opponent build meter is the same idea as letting your opponent pick up items on his discretion(whether or not it appears near him or not). You're not forcing him to not pick up the item. Therefore you are at fault for allowing him to.

Some combos do have a luck factor whether or not they'll hit. Makoto's SA2 will miss at a certain range for no reason against certain characters. The luck of standing in a specific place. Oh wait... isn't that what you're claiming for items? Luck? Standing in a specific place means you get an advantage or disadvantage? Oh boo hoo, that's the same as Makoto does. She loses a match because the opponent HAPPENED to get pushed back the perfect amount to be in a position where her SA2 will MISS FOR NO REASON AT ALL. Damn, we should ban standing in that position then.

3) Why are you comparing Brawl to other Fighting games, there is no fighting game out there that is even close to it. Where is the power meter in smash? Where is the chip damage? Apples to Oranges... ... Because it's a fighting game and the idea is the same. Where is the chip damage in Tekken? Where is the power meters in VF?

Good job though at trying to dodge the subject of you not knowing anything about "fighting games" in general by trying to claim that the comparison isn't there.