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ewu

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BART officer involved shooting
« on: January 12, 2009, 03:10:56 PM »

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/12/BAMF1585T4.DTL&tsp=1

What are your thoughts on this issue? Should the officer be arrested? Even if its against the currently established laws, should he be detained? If he was not, would we have on our hands another LA riots?

The facts are not clear yet, but it seem to be a charged topic.
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PyronIkari

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 03:22:42 PM »

I was talking to someone that witnessed it at the Bart station. This is how it went down(the important parts).

The officer had already detained the suspect and the other officer was looking down upon him. The suspect shouted out "I won't fight back just don't taze me". At which point the officer pulled out his gun while the other officer was talking down to the suspect, tell him to shut up and the such. That's when the gun went off, the officer looked really surprised and dumbfounded.

Some facts.

Officers are required to have their firearm safety on.
The officers safety was not on as he did not remove the safety when he pulled it out(you can see this in the video).

So my guess is, that the officer pulled out his gun as a scare tactic and squeezed the trigger assuming that the safety was on. The shot went off and he was surprised because he had not PLANNED on actually shooting him.

Mentally I believe the officer just imagined doing it but didn't actually want to do so.

Should he be arrested? Yes... it's manslaughter and negligence on his part as a trained/'armed officer. You can't just 'accidentally shoot someone' and not get put in prison. It happens all the time where someone will accidentally shoot someone, and they will get thrown in prison for negligence and manslaughter, the officer should not get any special treatment.

That's ideal though. Chances are he will get special treatment because he's an officer. They are covering it up quite a bit. Multiple witnesses saw what happened, and there is so many videos that exist but are not being released. Bart videos alone. They're bullshitting with the "it takes time to find the correct video" because it's all right there. There is no having to find the right video because they know exactly which videos were on the scene.

However, I DESPISE the public even more for how they are dealing with it. The gov't trying to cover one of their own, that's understandable. The public setting cars on fire, getting bart stations closed causing riots, this isn't acceptable and in no way helps the people they are "trying to protect" nor does it bring justice in anyway. The idea of the protests were to protect the public from officers, whether the officers were negligent or malicious. How does SCREWING OVER EVERYONE THAT USES BART do this? How does causing innocent pedestrians to be stranded for hours help this cause? How does causing physical damage to cars, trains and other such matters help at all?

The shooting is a pretty simple case. An officer did something he shouldn't have. He should be tried and sentenced. The public shouldn't be sending him death threats or vandalizing his house... and this is the media's fault. The media should not have released his name and his picture expecting things to go fine and dandy.
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ewu

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 04:17:10 PM »

Ahhh yes, The account seems to imply that the intent was not to shoot him. The safety could have been off for any number of reasons. The gun could have been misfired as a result. His only mistake was to pull the gun.

In my view, this would fall under the umbrella of involuntary manslaughter. This does carry jail time. Although, The CA penal code provides that peace officers may commit homicide for various reasons. That is why the officer cannot be arrested until the action is determined not to be inline with his duties. This is soon to be determined by the Alameda District Attorney.

Like Pyron I am unhappy about the public's response.....Anger and mob mentality can lead to such ugly ish....and yes, media had a big hand in it too. *sigh*

For ref: CA Penal Code §187-199
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PyronIkari

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 05:17:47 PM »

Ahhh yes, The account seems to imply that the intent was not to shoot him. The safety could have been off for any number of reasons. The gun could have been misfired as a result. His only mistake was to pull the gun.

In my view, this would fall under the umbrella of involuntary manslaughter. This does carry jail time. Although, The CA penal code provides that peace officers may commit homicide for various reasons. That is why the officer cannot be arrested until the action is determined not to be inline with his duties. This is soon to be determined by the Alameda District Attorney.

Like Pyron I am unhappy about the public's response.....Anger and mob mentality can lead to such ugly ish....and yes, media had a big hand in it too. *sigh*

For ref: CA Penal Code §187-199

The thing was he had no reason to draw his gun, or even a tazer. The suspect was clearly not struggling and the other officer had completely subdued him. The only time an officer would draw a gun in that situation is if the suspect had shown cause to.

This is what I also heard about the fight. It was nothing major. It's questionable if the cops should had even pinned down the suspect because it was a scuffle at best. Pushing and yelling. There were no major blows thrown. Everything about this case seems pretty straight forward from what I've seen and what I was told from a witness.

Also keep in mind, the witness I talked to was rather factual. He didn't put his opinion into anything he told me and pretty much said exactly what happened, and only the major points. No needless details or interjection on his part. It's the only reason I actually cared what he had to say. So many witnesses give false interpretation.

So it played out rather basically, and no matter how you look at it, the cops did things they shouldn't have, and it resulted in a death. Bad decisions upon the officer caused a man to die. It's tricky though... because the cop knows he made a terrible mistake. It's not like he meant to kill the guy, and I'm fairly certain he regrets everything that was done.

That's where the line of morals is made. Personally I think he should be punished, but not for murder. He didn't murder the guy. He made a huge mistake.
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otakuapprentice

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 05:32:30 PM »

Bad decisions upon the officer caused a man to die. It's tricky though... because the cop knows he made a terrible mistake. It's not like he meant to kill the guy, and I'm fairly certain he regrets everything that was done.

That's where the line of morals is made. Personally I think he should be punished, but not for murder. He didn't murder the guy. He made a huge mistake.
agreed.
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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 06:37:19 PM »

Unfortunately, many people will wrongfully refer to this as a murder, and not manslaughter.

I had not ever heard about this case until last week when I was in the Bay area.  It's not barely being covered in the news in Southern California.
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LordKefka

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 11:30:25 PM »

Ahhh yes, The account seems to imply that the intent was not to shoot him. The safety could have been off for any number of reasons. The gun could have been misfired as a result. His only mistake was to pull the gun.

In my view, this would fall under the umbrella of involuntary manslaughter. This does carry jail time. Although, The CA penal code provides that peace officers may commit homicide for various reasons. That is why the officer cannot be arrested until the action is determined not to be inline with his duties. This is soon to be determined by the Alameda District Attorney.

Like Pyron I am unhappy about the public's response.....Anger and mob mentality can lead to such ugly ish....and yes, media had a big hand in it too. *sigh*

For ref: CA Penal Code §187-199

The thing was he had no reason to draw his gun, or even a tazer. The suspect was clearly not struggling and the other officer had completely subdued him. The only time an officer would draw a gun in that situation is if the suspect had shown cause to.

This is what I also heard about the fight. It was nothing major. It's questionable if the cops should had even pinned down the suspect because it was a scuffle at best. Pushing and yelling. There were no major blows thrown. Everything about this case seems pretty straight forward from what I've seen and what I was told from a witness.

Also keep in mind, the witness I talked to was rather factual. He didn't put his opinion into anything he told me and pretty much said exactly what happened, and only the major points. No needless details or interjection on his part. It's the only reason I actually cared what he had to say. So many witnesses give false interpretation.

So it played out rather basically, and no matter how you look at it, the cops did things they shouldn't have, and it resulted in a death. Bad decisions upon the officer caused a man to die. It's tricky though... because the cop knows he made a terrible mistake. It's not like he meant to kill the guy, and I'm fairly certain he regrets everything that was done.

That's where the line of morals is made. Personally I think he should be punished, but not for murder. He didn't murder the guy. He made a huge mistake.

100% agree.
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Stormfalcon

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 07:38:32 AM »

And it's murder charges for him.

It'll be interesting to see what the basis is for charging him for murder, as opposed to manslaughter.
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ewu

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 08:23:31 AM »

yup, murder is all about mens rea....state of mind/guilty mind
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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 10:30:08 AM »


 There arent enough facts to decide. That is the problem with getting your information from news/online articles.

If it is true that it was entirley an accident, by law it would be manslaughter, and that should be the charge.

Unfortunatly, I dont think there is anything that can really be done to ensure that it never happens again. If I have learned anything, it is that such laws only complicate issues, never fix them.
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PyronIkari

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 02:05:31 PM »

This is kind of smart to be honest.

It's a lot harder to prove a murder case. All the defense has to do in this case is prove that he didn't mean to kill the guy, and he's innocent. With that, proof that the safety SHOULD have been on, or that it was a misfire and he's innocent, and gets off scott free. With manslaughter it would have been a guaranteed conviction.

So what happens if he's tried for murder and found innocent? By then most of the people won't even care. It'll be months to years before this trial finishes and by then people won't remember it or care.
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ewu

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 02:56:12 PM »

The LA riots were after the officers were aquitted. Although, those officers were charged wiht excessive force.

There may be additional charges lodged with the murder charge, but media only says murder cuz it is the one that gets the ratings....
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PyronIkari

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 03:46:10 PM »

The LA riots were after the officers were aquitted. Although, those officers were charged wiht excessive force.

There may be additional charges lodged with the murder charge, but media only says murder cuz it is the one that gets the ratings....

He'll get charged with other stuff, but you can't really be charged with both man-slaughter and murder for the same crime. Since if it's man-slaughter it's not murder, and if it's murder it's not man-slaughter.
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questionette

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 04:57:46 PM »

I was talking about this to a recently retired officer, Cindy Lee of Oakland police.
Apparently the tazers that are on officers are shaped like guns.  Tazers are on one side of the belt, gun on the other.  Her guess is that in the heat of the moment he went for his gun thinking it was his tazer.

IMO, the guy didn't want to kill anyone.  He just had a kid, too.

PyronIkari

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 05:59:08 PM »

I was talking about this to a recently retired officer, Cindy Lee of Oakland police.
Apparently the tazers that are on officers are shaped like guns.  Tazers are on one side of the belt, gun on the other.  Her guess is that in the heat of the moment he went for his gun thinking it was his tazer.

IMO, the guy didn't want to kill anyone.  He just had a kid, too.

Uh... the tazer thing is bull. Grabbing the tazer he might have made a mistake, squeezing the trigger on the other hand is not. As soon as you feel the gun in your hand, you know it's a gun. The weight of it, the shape, the feel, everything about it. It'd be like picking up a plastic knife and picking up a 8in hunting knife. The delay shows more than enough time that there's consciousness there. Not only that, the guy is a veteran. He shouldn't be making a rookie mistake like that.
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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 05:31:41 PM »

I heard the guy had only been working for BART for 2 years, that's really bad if he didn't know to have his safety on (or not to pull a gun out on an unarmed, detained man) if he's a veteran.
Either way, I agree completely with Pyron.

They also should have been trained to immediately get the guy help.  They sort of stood around looking at the crowd and the guy on the floor for a while before calling for help (or at least, so a news report said).
Some people had called and said they had knives and/or guns, but it was *quickly* determined that wasn't the case, so they shouldn't have pulled the gun out.

It seems like it was a dumb, dumb, dumb mistake and a horrible accident.   ....That resulted in senseless and needless riots  T.T
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ewu

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 05:40:32 PM »

and a senseless and needless death
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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2009, 05:37:33 PM »

and a senseless and needless death
needless to say.  lol
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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 01:40:28 AM »

I was talking about this to a recently retired officer, Cindy Lee of Oakland police.
Apparently the tazers that are on officers are shaped like guns.  Tazers are on one side of the belt, gun on the other.  Her guess is that in the heat of the moment he went for his gun thinking it was his tazer.

IMO, the guy didn't want to kill anyone.  He just had a kid, too.

Uh... the tazer thing is bull. Grabbing the tazer he might have made a mistake, squeezing the trigger on the other hand is not. As soon as you feel the gun in your hand, you know it's a gun. The weight of it, the shape, the feel, everything about it. It'd be like picking up a plastic knife and picking up a 8in hunting knife. The delay shows more than enough time that there's consciousness there. Not only that, the guy is a veteran. He shouldn't be making a rookie mistake like that.
My friend, who's an Oakland police officer, confirmed that the tazer that the Bart police uses is actually shaped and feels like a gun. I get the feeling that the Bart Officer, in the heat of the moment, didn't realize this. Veteran or not, he screwed up in more ways than one.

I'm glad that the higher powers got involved and this is getting the attention that it needed. The Bart Police screwed up by letting the guy go without asking for a written statement and tried to ignore it, but this is why they are looking to redo the Bart Police policies.

I can confirm from one of my friends that the fight wasn't really even a fight... Pushing, shoving, and generally what you would see from a playground fight. It was pathetic that the end result is something as serious as a death.
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PyronIkari

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Re: BART officer involved shooting
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 12:47:05 AM »


My friend, who's an Oakland police officer, confirmed that the tazer that the Bart police uses is actually shaped and feels like a gun. I get the feeling that the Bart Officer, in the heat of the moment, didn't realize this. Veteran or not, he screwed up in more ways than one.

I'm glad that the higher powers got involved and this is getting the attention that it needed. The Bart Police screwed up by letting the guy go without asking for a written statement and tried to ignore it, but this is why they are looking to redo the Bart Police policies.

I can confirm from one of my friends that the fight wasn't really even a fight... Pushing, shoving, and generally what you would see from a playground fight. It was pathetic that the end result is something as serious as a death.
I've held the tazer before. It's shaped and feels like it only in shape and handle. It feels nothing like holding a gun though. The weight difference is huge, and the grip etc. If he grabbed it and fired it INSTANTLY, I could believe it was just a heat of the moment issue. But he didn't fire the gun instantly, there's a pause. He knew what he was holding.
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