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LordKefka

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Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« on: April 27, 2011, 08:25:54 PM »

Well with all the rave about this show, figured it be nice to have a discussion topic on it.

First issue of discussion: episode 3 = wtf.. THE END.

No but seriously, at first when I finished this show, I felt pretty empty on the inside. Not sure if I completely enjoyed/felt satisfied with the ending or not but I have to say the whole deconstructing the mahou shoujo genre made it pretty original as the more dark and almost a psuedo-reality check of the glamorous life of mahou shoujos really checked the idea of what people expect or think they are.

The more I thought about this show the more depressed I became, even after Madoka changed the laws of the universe and Witches, that these girls will ultimately run out of MP and die (as seen with Sayaka in episode 12). The wheel of fate for these girls will keep spinning: Mami will die (but hopefully not in a way where her head got ripped off which made me curl up in a ball of sadness till sunrise) as will Sakura fighting for something people don't even realize. It's this type of stuff that gets to me as it almost feels like they are tragic heroes: dying on behalf of what they do for others while under-appreciated if at all for their efforts and sacrifices.  

Going back to the ending, I really have no idea how else I would have wanted this series to end. I mean, the series ended on a bittersweet yet lonely but a close and inseparable feeling between two characters almost like how I felt back when I watched the ending of Simoun.

Anyways more thoughts later.

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Kuudere

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 09:26:56 PM »

I loved how they trolled us with a cheery OP, only to give us the events of episode 3 on. I totally loved Mami, only to watch her get killed by an adorably colorful witch. Yeah, I was like, "did that really just happen?"

As for the ending, I pretty much had Kyuubey's reaction to Madoka's wish (how in the world do you reverse something so vital to the process? It goes against every rule that was set in place. If you get rid of witches, who do the magic girls fight? What is their purpose to exist in the first place? If it's to fight demons, how do those come to be?)

I was happy that they allowed the dead to stay dead. I'm kinda sick of seeing shows that bring back characters after they die in order to have a happy ending (I'm looking at you, Clannad). It was as good of an ending as I could have asked for. A truly happy ending would have just felt out of place and forced.
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 09:44:13 PM »

Well technically Mami was dead then wasn't dead thanks to Homu. Feels like the whole time traveling thing dimmed the effect for her "death" in episode 3 for me. She dies over and over again but that takes away the initial effect.
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Kuudere

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2011, 10:05:39 PM »

Well technically Mami was dead then wasn't dead thanks to Homu. Feels like the whole time traveling thing dimmed the effect for her "death" in episode 3 for me. She dies over and over again but that takes away the initial effect.


I suppose what I mean was they were destined to die. No matter how many times Homura did a do-over, they still came to pretty much the same "bad ending." She couldn't bring them back to life, really...all she could do was keep repeating that same month over and over, trying to prevent Madoka from being tricked into a contract. You really had to feel bad for the hopeless situation that Homura was in.

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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2011, 10:34:30 PM »

Yea it was a fate they can't escape. It's another one of those original and complete deconstruction of what a typical mahou shoujo anime is.

The whole thing about episode 3 though was the complete shock of creating this grim reality for mahou shoujo in the world of Madoka Magica. If Mami died, for example, in a battle to save whoever to make her look heroic then sure it would have been like some other mahou shoujo anime. In fact, there are several mahou shoujo anime where characters die off. But the fact of the matter is she died of a simple, simple misjudgment. That short scene created a whole new atmosphere and that "shocker" of "oh shit, this isn't a fairytale" or mahou shoujo dying valiantly or heroically or whatever you want to call it. It was almost a realistic (hence me saying the whole psuedo-reality check) and a slap to the face scene. It wasn't her death which created the shocker but the WAY that she died and how simple mistakes can cost someone her life (just like it would be in a real war or fight)

And yea, Homu was in a bad state but that focus of her grief devalued the deaths of other characters in how we initially viewed it and the initial impact and feeling of them dying for the first time (not to mention a shift in focus to her and using the deaths of the other cast freely as a plot driver, you know, to explain what has happened before). It's like the effect we see with Dokuro-chan: at first she kills the guy and it was funny. But her doing it repeatedly lessens the effect more and more and it's impact of the viewers because of all the you know, repeats and we become sensitized to it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:45:21 PM by LordKefka »
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Kuudere

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 10:52:16 PM »

That's a great point. When that whole scene took place, I kept thinking, "why isn't she doing something?"

 Also, of course the fact that they believed they are fighting for this great cause (which we are also made to believe is the reality of it, giving us that same cutesy magic-girl-show vibe), when really, they're just fighting transformed magic girls. They're fighting for nothing they can tangibly relate to, being used for some purpose that is impossible to grasp. Then they become the very things they fight, and cause the same harm to the world that they believed they were preventing. If that isn't depressing, I don't know what is.

This is why I keep bugging my friends to watch the show past episode 3. It's pretty misleading if you go by just the first two episodes. Didn't they finally introduce the ED in the 3rd episode, once the facade was revealed? The ED more accurately describes the series than the OP.
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 11:08:25 PM »

She isn't doing anything because again, she's only what... 15 years old? When reality hit for her in that fight and up front with the Witch, she froze in fear and of course it's a reaction of people to stand and unable to move from the fear. There was so much stuff going on in those 3 minutes almost as if you can feel how it would REALLY be like if you were there without the whole bullshit sparkles and glamors of some fictional happy happy in a fictional show. To create that feel was a work of a genius.

A lot fight for different reasons but whatever reason they fight for, in the end they end up with despair because one, they have to keep fighting to continue purifying their soul gems and if they're soul gems or their MP fades away, they die. This is exactly the point "The Devil" ( as I call it) pointed out: eat or to be eaten. To keep living, they have to keep hunting Witches and use Grief Seeds or else their soul gem "starves" to death... or I guess turn black and they die.

I think an even sadder thing is Sayaka who really exemplified the idea of a tragic heroine. I mean we see it in Ga Rei Zero but this here, it's on a completely different scale. No, she didn't give up her life but she no longer has any possibility with whatever the guy's name was again. It's like the saying death is better than living since she has to sit there being ALIVE but can only helplessly watch as that chance of her real wish to be granted taken away. She basically sacrificed not only her life and humanity for nothing but created a cause and effect that made her grief even more. On top of that, the only way for her to continue surviving is to keep killing Witches in order to purify her soul gem or else she dies. It's like she's almost a parasite. And this goes back to what Mami said near the beginning of the anime: is it her wish for him to become better or is she making the wish to have him grant her her wish. The first time she died she made the wrong choice but in episode 12, the motivation of her wish she made was right and she accepted it. Sad, but still better than the first time around.

And yea, they covered up the show pretty well with the opening. It's like Akiyuki Shinbo challenged the viewers to keep watching. For those who did, they got to see something that all anime fans should see and experience.

And oh, I hope you realize this is the same guy who did Bakemonogatari and Arawaka under the bridge. ya...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 11:34:29 PM by LordKefka »
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PyronIkari

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 09:26:02 AM »

You totally missed the point of Mami's character, reading your posts on this.

First off... Connect is cutesy? Have you actually paid attention to the OP at all? It's actually a really depressing song and the OP animation itself follows that.

Cheapened the affect of her dying? It's not so much that Mami dies each time, but WHY she dies each time. You also missed the big reality of her character, that she was the least understanding, the least strong willed and the worst kind of person to be put in that situation.

In the alternate time when Homuhomu explains the process of grief seeds and magicka -> witch, Mami breaks and KILLS THE OTHERS. So no matter what happens, the reality of the situation is that Mami could not handle the truth and if she ever found out the truth she would TRY TO KILL ALL THE OTHER GIRLS. Mami's death actually became a crucial thing because if she didn't/doesn't die, she would kill the others if she ever found out the truth, which HAD TO BE inevitable otherwise Homu could not protect Madoka.

You also completely miss read Sayaka's character as well. Sayaka very easily could have gotten the guy, but that wasn't the issue. She's the typical "Hero of justice" in which she puts her sense of justice and right over her wants. She lives based on her ideals not based on reality. From the start she was a broken character. If I wanted to be controversial, she's no different than KyuBei was, just different ideals. The wish itself had nothing to do with Sayaka breaking. The guy had nothing to do with Sayaka breaking either. This was reconfirmed in the ending as well. Her despair and breaking point was that her reasoning and her strength were taken away from her because her ideals had been broken. The reality of what she had become, just an empty shell that was destined to become a witch was the exact opposite of her ideal. Her sense of justice becamse the very thing that changed her into a witch.

I don't know what you guys are talking about the show tricked you or what not. It was obvious from the very start how the show was going to progress. Of course the details and exact plot points were unknown, it was still obvious it was going to be something along these lines.
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Kuudere

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 10:34:38 AM »

And yea, they covered up the show pretty well with the opening. It's like Akiyuki Shinbo challenged the viewers to keep watching. For those who did, they got to see something that all anime fans should see and experience.

And oh, I hope you realize this is the same guy who did Bakemonogatari and Arawaka under the bridge. ya...

Of course! Shinbo was the #1 reason I watched to begin with. I knew it wasn't going to be some ordinary show with him involved. Once I heard about ClariS, Kalafina, Ume Aoki, Eri Kitamura, and Chiwa Saito being involved, I was sold.




First off... Connect is cutesy? Have you actually paid attention to the OP at all? It's actually a really depressing song and the OP animation itself follows that.

That's not the message I get out of the song. It starts off as kind of a despairing message, but it develops into one of hope and looking forward to making things better tomorrow. I suppose you can argue that that theme is consistent with the anime and Madoka's overall path to her decision; that would be valid. And for the animation, other than the tears and moping in bed, it's pretty much indistinguishable from what you'd expect a cutesy magic girl show to have. Bright colors, showing all the characters, cute scenes of hanging out with friends, being a typical girl, lying in the grass with cats...etc.


I don't know what you guys are talking about the show tricked you or what not. It was obvious from the very start how the show was going to progress. Of course the details and exact plot points were unknown, it was still obvious it was going to be something along these lines.

It was meant to deceive, from what I've gathered on the subject. I've read that they initially attempted to keep Gen Urobuchi's involvement a secret (which was exposed early on via Twitter) in order to conceal the direction the show was going to take. They continued to try and keep people guessing when Urobuchi stated "...I’ll try my best to deliver to you a story that would warm your heart!"

True, the signs were there if you took time to look for them. The blatant references to Faust, both in storyline and in actual representation of the text, was a complete giveaway. It was an interesting choice of foreshadowing, but it certainly grabbed my attention.

I was mostly speaking from personal experience with friends. The ones I've been bugging to watch it, watched the first episode and judged the whole thing based on that. The word they came back with to describe it? "Cute." Obviously, it must fool some people who are just casually watching it.

I do have to agree with your assessments of Sayaka and Mami. Sayaka was way too in love with the idea of protecting humanity and essentially broke from learning the truth of it. I sort of don't fully get why Mami became all crazy from learning the truth. Out of all the girls, she lost the least in her deal with Kyuubey (she would have died had she not done so, she didn't have a full life ahead of her like the other girls did. Yes, she'll become a witch and all, but her reaction seemed overboard when you compare it to the others). She wasn't as hung up on the hero aspect of it like Sayaka was. She seemed to just be doing it because it was either become a magic girl or die. I don't expect her to sit back and take the news calmly, but it didn't seem to fit considering her motives and what she gained from the deal.

Either way, I really, really need to marathon the show. I watched each episode once, right after it got subbed, while watching many other series at the same time. I'm certain I've forgotten or mixed up several important details. It definitely deserves another dedicated watch.

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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 10:55:23 AM »

You totally missed the point of Mami's character, reading your posts on this.

First off... Connect is cutesy? Have you actually paid attention to the OP at all? It's actually a really depressing song and the OP animation itself follows that.

Cheapened the affect of her dying? It's not so much that Mami dies each time, but WHY she dies each time. You also missed the big reality of her character, that she was the least understanding, the least strong willed and the worst kind of person to be put in that situation.

In the alternate time when Homuhomu explains the process of grief seeds and magicka -> witch, Mami breaks and KILLS THE OTHERS. So no matter what happens, the reality of the situation is that Mami could not handle the truth and if she ever found out the truth she would TRY TO KILL ALL THE OTHER GIRLS. Mami's death actually became a crucial thing because if she didn't/doesn't die, she would kill the others if she ever found out the truth, which HAD TO BE inevitable otherwise Homu could not protect Madoka.

You also completely miss read Sayaka's character as well. Sayaka very easily could have gotten the guy, but that wasn't the issue. She's the typical "Hero of justice" in which she puts her sense of justice and right over her wants. She lives based on her ideals not based on reality. From the start she was a broken character. If I wanted to be controversial, she's no different than KyuBei was, just different ideals. The wish itself had nothing to do with Sayaka breaking. The guy had nothing to do with Sayaka breaking either. This was reconfirmed in the ending as well. Her despair and breaking point was that her reasoning and her strength were taken away from her because her ideals had been broken. The reality of what she had become, just an empty shell that was destined to become a witch was the exact opposite of her ideal. Her sense of justice becamse the very thing that changed her into a witch.

I don't know what you guys are talking about the show tricked you or what not. It was obvious from the very start how the show was going to progress. Of course the details and exact plot points were unknown, it was still obvious it was going to be something along these lines.

I never said Connect was cutesy. And in no way is it depressing. What are you talking about? It's like a normal anime opening and in no way does the opening reflect the direction of the anime, whether happy, sad, funny or whatever and at least not to the degree of what we see. Here are the lyrics. Read it.

"I won't forget the promises we exchanged
I close my eyes to affirm it
I will shake off the overwhelming darkness to move forward

When will I ever be able
To see the lost future from here again?

Let's move forward in this world
By shattering the overflowing shadows of anxiety again and again

Time now begins to tick away incessantly
Let's open the closed door
While carrying our unchanging feelings

My heart awakes in order to depict the future
Even if I come to a halt on a tough road
The beautiful blue sky always waits for me
Therefore I'm not afraid
I won't be disheartened anymore no matter what happens

My friends were there when I looked back
They gave me a warm hug if they noticed

In the world where everything was distorted
This only trustable place was my salvation

Our feelings will be stronger by sharing our joy and sorrow
If my voice can reach you
I'm sure miracle will happen

I won't forget the promises we exchanged
I close my eyes to affirm it
I will shake off the overwhelming darkness to move forward
No matter how tall a wall there is
I will definitely cross over it
Pray for believing in tomorrow

While I was wandering in the collapsed world
I came to you as if I was drawn to you

My heart awakes in order to depict the future
Even if I come to a halt on a tough road
The beautiful blue sky always waits for me
Therefore I'm not afraid
I won't be disheartened anymore no matter what happens

Always look forward to tomorrow"

First, I don't even think I talked about Mami's character at ALL so I don't know where this lecture of me misunderstanding her came from. In fact, I really don't even think you read what I wrote cause if you did, you'd realize my focus wasn't anything about her character. But I guess since you brought up the discussion might as well go into it. When Mami first became a mahou shoujo, she didn't do it for the sake of becoming a mahou shoujo but for the sake of saving her own life. In fact, I see her completely opposite to Sayaka. Why do I say that? In her flash back of her being in a car accident, she selfishly used the wish to only save herself without considering the lives of the rest of her family. It was only natural to think about oneself rather and especially at her young age and she hinted that it was a wish she probably regrets. When Sayaka was faced with the dilemma of using the wish to save SOMEONE ELSE, Mami confronted her because the nature and ideal of her wish isn't what a wish should be used for and this is why her question was this: " do you truly wish for him to be better or do you wish that HE is able to make your wish come true". Mami was trying to pull Sayaka away from a mistake and path of despair but it still happened anyways. In the ending of Madoka, Sayaka wasn't in despair because the wish she made was clear minded and genuine, thus selflessly sacrificing herself. In the battle of the last episode, she doesn't become depressed or become a Witch. She actually died simply from using up all her magic, which is what happens since mahou shoujo no longer can restore their MP due to the new system imposed by Madoka. And what do you mean " the worst kind of position to be in that type of situation"? Is anyone FIT to be in that type of situation (I'm assuming you mean the scene where she froze right before her head got bitten off)? If anything, it's a natural reaction to be scared to the point where you can't move. The reality of this show is NO ONE SIGNED UP TO BE A MAGICAL GIRL TO BE COOL AND DO JUSTICE. EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE did it because they were pushed into a corner. Mami was going to die, Sakura did it because her family was ruined so she had to save it, Sayaka because she wanted to have him and the only way she had a chance with him was for him to get better and be the way he used to be the first time she saw him, and Madoka who sacrificed her very existence (in regards to other people) for the sake of all mahou shoujo.

The first time Mami dies, it was due to a mistake. The whole point of that scene was to reflect on the grim reality of being a mahou shoujo in this anime. I'm not even talking about the nature of her in the anime. As far as I could care, it could be anyone. It was the idea in episode 3 of that sudden " wait a minute, no way this can happen in a mahou shoujo anime" that got to people and set the show apart from every other mahou shoujo that people are so accustomed to. When I said "cheapened" her death, I mean that people become sensitized to seeing the same thing over and over again, relating to not even just this anime. I didn't say anywhere their deaths were meaningless. It was more of that decrease in shock factor after you watch or experience something over and over again.

I don't agree with your point about Sayaka at all. She originally pointed out that and even admitted that that type of mahou shoujo life wasn't for them and how it should be given to people more unfortunate. She was pushed into the corner to make the wish because she could no longer stand to watch the person she love drift more and more away from her. And she COULD have him anytime but she didn't WANT it be done that way. This goes back to Mami questioning Sayaka's motives for using a wish on the guy because the wish she wanted can't be granted directly by a wish she makes. If you remember when Sakura came into the picture after she already made her wish, she mentioned how she offered to break his limbs again so he could come crawling back to Sayaka in which Sayaka became furious to hear. In other words, she didn't want to force him to like her. The focus of her character wasn't about her wanting to be a "hero of justice" but more so about a sense wanting her true wish, which can't be granted by her making the wish, happen. Sayaka accepted the fate as a mahou shoujo without realizing the true nature of it. If you recall, the soul gem wasn't revealed to her until AFTER she made a contract with Kyubei and it was at that point she realized she was no longer herself/human and that she can never face the guy again because of the state she was in. NO ONE signed up to be a mahou shoujo in this anime for the sake of justice. Everyone signed up for their own personal reason and fighting Witches was the contract in EXCHANGE for that wish to be granted. And I don't know what you mean by saying " this was reconfirmed in the ending as well". The ending was Homu going back in time but Sayaka made the same choice to save the guy and grant him his wish. The scene you saw where she sat next to Madoka in the theater crying happened AFTER the scene that came next which was her using up the rest of her MP when the gang was fighting the new creature. She left the world in resolution with herself and satisfied, knowing the wish she made this time was truly for the sake of the person she loved. She selflessly sacrificed herself for him.

And showed tricked us? It didn't trick anyone but obviously to judge an anime based solely on the opening theme and the lyrics is pretty damn stupid. My chest was pretty tight watching through episode one though, like I could almost feel this wasn't going to be some glamorous show.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:36:32 AM by LordKefka »
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 11:10:45 AM »

I do have to agree with your assessments of Sayaka and Mami. Sayaka was way too in love with the idea of protecting humanity and essentially broke from learning the truth of it. I sort of don't fully get why Mami became all crazy from learning the truth. Out of all the girls, she lost the least in her deal with Kyuubey (she would have died had she not done so, she didn't have a full life ahead of her like the other girls did. Yes, she'll become a witch and all, but her reaction seemed overboard when you compare it to the others). She wasn't as hung up on the hero aspect of it like Sayaka was. She seemed to just be doing it because it was either become a magic girl or die. I don't expect her to sit back and take the news calmly, but it didn't seem to fit considering her motives and what she gained from the deal.

Either way, I really, really need to marathon the show. I watched each episode once, right after it got subbed, while watching many other series at the same time. I'm certain I've forgotten or mixed up several important details. It definitely deserves another dedicated watch.



For some reason I don't really agree with both of you on this stand of her wanting to fight for justice. If you watch the very early episodes before Mami died, she WAS in love with the whole idea of justice and how cool being a mahou shoujo was. However, the choice she made to become a mahou shoujo after Mami's death wasn't for the same motivation as before as it was made because she couldn't bare to see the guy drift further and further apart from her. She forcefully told herself that " I get to have him grant my wish and fight for a cause". The whole fighting for a cause was a side thing as she broke down after finding out the grim reality of what a mahou shoujo was. HOWEVER, she broke down because she no longer could face the guy due to what she has become NOT because the idea of fighting for justice by her was shattered. She knew what she was getting into but she didn't know becoming a mahou shoujo would take away her humanity and thus, negating the wish she made on the guy to be with her thus making the wish made not only wasted but also put her in a hopeless situation that isn't reversible.

And yeah, the whole scene where Mami went crazy and killed off Sakura was a bit off but I think it could be what Mikey said that because she was in fact, the weakest. That or it could just be a plot driver or that it could be that she just happened to act first because she did end up getting killed immediately and almost impulsively by Madoka after.

On a side note, I wish more people were discussing this show other than 3 people as I'm sure there are plenty who has seen this.. -_-;
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:23:53 AM by LordKefka »
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Kuudere

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 11:39:25 AM »

For some reason I don't really agree with both of you on this stand of her wanting to fight for justice. If you watch the very early episodes before Mami died, she WAS in love with the whole idea of justice and how cool being a mahou shoujo was. However, the choice she made to become a mahou shoujo after Mami's death wasn't for the same motivation as before as it was made because she couldn't bare to see the guy drift further and further apart from her. She forcefully told herself that " I get to have him grant my wish and fight for a cause". The whole fighting for a cause was a side thing as she broke down after finding out the grim reality of what a mahou shoujo was. HOWEVER, she broke down because she no longer could face the guy due to what she has become NOT because the idea of fighting for justice by her was shattered. She knew what she was getting into but she didn't know becoming a mahou shoujo would take away her humanity and thus, negating the wish she made on the guy to be with her thus making the wish made not only wasted but also put her in a hopeless situation that isn't reversible.


No, I can see where you're coming from with your take on it. I remember Sayaka saying something along the lines of (and I'm probably badly paraphrasing it) 'How can I be with him when I'm just a shell?' That was the beginning of her breakdown. Again, I really need to re-watch this, because Sayaka's character is probably one of the more debated ones of the series. People argue whether or not she is selfish in her wish, and both sides have valid points. Also, I think one small thing that influences my opinion in how she views herself as a hero would be her choice of outfit. Clearly she seems to view herself as some kind of knight with that design and weapon choice, though maybe I'm looking too deeply into character design at this point.

On a side note, I wish more people were discussing this show other than 3 people as I'm sure there are plenty who has seen this.. -_-;
Yeah, I'd say give it a little time. These forums aren't the most active right now. I'm glad for PyronIkari's involvement, though. You know he'll speak up whenever he disagrees with something, so it makes for interesting discussion, at least. I like to read others' interpretations on things, especially when they disagree with my own (as long as he keeps the personal attacks to a minimum ;)).
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 11:52:47 AM »

For some reason I don't really agree with both of you on this stand of her wanting to fight for justice. If you watch the very early episodes before Mami died, she WAS in love with the whole idea of justice and how cool being a mahou shoujo was. However, the choice she made to become a mahou shoujo after Mami's death wasn't for the same motivation as before as it was made because she couldn't bare to see the guy drift further and further apart from her. She forcefully told herself that " I get to have him grant my wish and fight for a cause". The whole fighting for a cause was a side thing as she broke down after finding out the grim reality of what a mahou shoujo was. HOWEVER, she broke down because she no longer could face the guy due to what she has become NOT because the idea of fighting for justice by her was shattered. She knew what she was getting into but she didn't know becoming a mahou shoujo would take away her humanity and thus, negating the wish she made on the guy to be with her thus making the wish made not only wasted but also put her in a hopeless situation that isn't reversible.


No, I can see where you're coming from with your take on it. I remember Sayaka saying something along the lines of (and I'm probably badly paraphrasing it) 'How can I be with him when I'm just a shell?' That was the beginning of her breakdown. Again, I really need to re-watch this, because Sayaka's character is probably one of the more debated ones of the series. People argue whether or not she is selfish in her wish, and both sides have valid points. Also, I think one small thing that influences my opinion in how she views herself as a hero would be her choice of outfit. Clearly she seems to view herself as some kind of knight with that design and weapon choice, though maybe I'm looking too deeply into character design at this point.

On a side note, I wish more people were discussing this show other than 3 people as I'm sure there are plenty who has seen this.. -_-;
Yeah, I'd say give it a little time. These forums aren't the most active right now. I'm glad for PyronIkari's involvement, though. You know he'll speak up whenever he disagrees with something, so it makes for interesting discussion, at least. I like to read others' interpretations on things, especially when they disagree with my own (as long as he keeps the personal attacks to a minimum ;)).

Adding on and I remember this clearly, Madoka stated to Homu how how if Sayaka didn't show up to "save her" she would have died. However, Homu pointed out that "what if Sayaka showed up not to save her but only because it was her task kill Witches". It really puts things into another perspective. A

Regarding her outfit, I think it might just be her outfit lol.

To me, I think the ending is something I can't quite take a stand on in either direction with what happened to Homu.

Oh and him? He's been contributing in general not just here but in other topics as well. As long as personal attacks are not in anything, it's fine. It's fine to say how stupid a comment is but that's different than calling someone an idiot.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:58:40 AM by LordKefka »
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PyronIkari

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 12:00:32 PM »

The ending reitterates that it wasn't purely for her to get with him. But it was just an inclusive. Was her wish selfless? Not entirely, in the end it was for him. She couldn't bear him being in pain, that was why the wish was made. It wasn't because she was trying to get with him and this was the only way she could do it. If this *WAS* it would go against everything about Sayaka's character. it wouldn't match. She made the choice as a sacrifice of her self. But she's incredibly head strong in her actions that, even if I'm sacrificing myself, I will do this job at the very best I possibly can. This is why she too urges Madoka NOT to become a mahou shoujo at the start after Sayaka had become one. She's very "this is my cross to bare, and I will bare it for everyone in the world". To say that she made the wish to get with the guy goes completely against this, and goes completely against her character.

Look how long it takes her to make the wish... She doesn't want to do it, but it's not until AFTER he basically gives up on his life. When he does the one thing she doesn't want him to do. He threw away music and he gave up on life.

Her turning point was the realization of what she is. Again, it had nothing to do with the guy. Although the guy ends up being a part of the end result of how she feels, it wasn't the cause of. After she learns that she's no longer really human, she loses her self identity completely. That's when she turns on Madoka and blames her, that's when she can't bare the weight of everything any more and just snaps.

You put way too much on the relationship aspect, when really it had nothing to do with anything. I.E. Replace him, with say... her little brother. What changes? Absolutely nothing. The reasons are still exactly the same, the path and pacing are exactly the same. The relationship aspect was so minor in the grand scheme of it all.  

Asfor losely translated lyrics (LOLOLOL) learn to read context and tone in music please.

As for Homu telling that to Madoka. It goes with "I'm trying to protect you by telling things to you that hurt you".

EDIT:

Madoka shoots Mami to STOP HER FROM KILLING EVERYONE ELSE.

You also quoted me wrong. I said "person" not "position to be in that position". As it her as a person, her character and her reasoning.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 12:06:19 PM by PyronIkari »
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2011, 12:19:03 PM »

The ending reitterates that it wasn't purely for her to get with him. But it was just an inclusive. Was her wish selfless? Not entirely, in the end it was for him. She couldn't bear him being in pain, that was why the wish was made. It wasn't because she was trying to get with him and this was the only way she could do it. If this *WAS* it would go against everything about Sayaka's character. it wouldn't match. She made the choice as a sacrifice of her self. But she's incredibly head strong in her actions that, even if I'm sacrificing myself, I will do this job at the very best I possibly can. This is why she too urges Madoka NOT to become a mahou shoujo at the start after Sayaka had become one. She's very "this is my cross to bare, and I will bare it for everyone in the world". To say that she made the wish to get with the guy goes completely against this, and goes completely against her character.

Look how long it takes her to make the wish... She doesn't want to do it, but it's not until AFTER he basically gives up on his life. When he does the one thing she doesn't want him to do. He threw away music and he gave up on life.

Her turning point was the realization of what she is. Again, it had nothing to do with the guy. Although the guy ends up being a part of the end result of how she feels, it wasn't the cause of. After she learns that she's no longer really human, she loses her self identity completely. That's when she turns on Madoka and blames her, that's when she can't bare the weight of everything any more and just snaps.

You put way too much on the relationship aspect, when really it had nothing to do with anything. I.E. Replace him, with say... her little brother. What changes? Absolutely nothing. The reasons are still exactly the same, the path and pacing are exactly the same. The relationship aspect was so minor in the grand scheme of it all.  

Asfor losely translated lyrics (LOLOLOL) learn to read context and tone in music please.

As for Homu telling that to Madoka. It goes with "I'm trying to protect you by telling things to you that hurt you".

Yep EXACTLY. The ending WASN'T about her getting with him at ALL. This was what I was talking about when I mentioned how Mami asked her what her true goal or purpose of her wish was whether if it was to truly help him or to do it so he can be with him. Episode 12, Sayaka made the RIGHT choice with a clear mind. In the previous time line, Sayaka made her wish with the alter-motive for the sake of a relationship with him which both Mami and Homu told Madoka that Sayaka was hopeless to save.  

The looong time it took for Sayaka to make her wish only proved that he was the deciding factor of whether she becomes a mahou shoujo or not. She didn't want to become one for justice and is in fact scared after seeing what happened to Mami and lying to herself by telling how she enjoyed being a defender of justice.

And yes I think it was because of the guy. I will refer you to episode 7, 18:53 when she was talking with Madoka. This was when her true feelings came out as she mentioned what if she didn't save Hitomi and how she isn't fit to me a partner of justice. She then breaks down over the fact that she can no longer be with the guy and starting from that point, she broke down until eventually she became a Witch.

Anyways, i gotta head out. I'll respond to the rest of post when I come back.
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PyronIkari

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2011, 12:51:06 PM »

Uh... the ending was still part of that time line. That's the timeline that Madoka had to erase and apologizes that she has to erase that time line to Sayaka.

Sayaka says that it's regrettable that he ends up with Hitomi and not her, but she understands that it's how it's supposed to be(something she understood the moment she realized what Magika were).

She didn't BECOME one because of the risks but that is still how she viewed them. That part didn't change at all. See the part you're missing is that she made the wish FOR HIM, but NOT to BE WITH HIM. It was something she'd have liked but not the reason.

The whole dialogue about Hitomi is just natural teenage jealousy. It's a reflection of how she *IS* still human. It's a scenario that's in so many stories already. "I'm not fit to be called good because I thought about not doing the right thing" even though they did do the right thing. How many times have you seen this in stories? It's natural to feel jealous in that situation and think about not doing the right thing, this was not the deal breaker for her though, and frankly, it was something she already accepted. Like I said, remove the relationship aspect of this. It would play out exactly the same. It wasn't him, it was her believing she's no longer human. So her mentality switched to "I HAVE TO DO MY WORTH TO PROVE TO MYSELF THAT I'M HUMAN" and that drove her to become a witch because she was failing.
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2011, 02:22:40 PM »

You mentioned how she made the wish for him but not to be with him. Then what other purpose was that wish for him be? For him to be better because they are friends? No, it was love. I referred you to episode 7 where she pretty much admitted that she could no longer be with him because what she has become. If you say not being with him isn't the reason for her making the wish then what is? Cause she felt bad for him? I doubt it. She's in love. She realized there is NO WAY she can wish for him to love her (which him loving her is her true wish) so instead, she played around it and wished for him to be better so they would eventually get closer and they would both live in a world of norm. The physical problem he had WAS THE WALL/BARRIER BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.

Going back to what I said, when she made the wish, she made it because that it was a chance for her to be closer with him. But what she didn't realize then was that when she made the wish, she already could no longer be with him because she had already sacrificed her humanity. It was later when she realized that that she went into depression and became a Witch eventually. This goes to her admitting in the end, as you said, how she doesn't like how Hitomi and the dude are together but there isn't anything she can do about it so she hopes Hitomi will at least take care of him. Sayaka dies because she used her up all her MP.

You mentioned how if we remove the relationship aspect that it would play out the same. Well I don't think it would because she wouldn't have made a wish to begin with. For what reason does she have to make a wish on someone for some other reason. If not for a relationship then tell me what else would she have made the wish for? Just saying making a wish FOR him doesn't explain a motive for why she did it. What other reason then that's stronger?

I also don't see where she makes it clear about the point you made that she needed to prove to her worth and herself human. Everything goes back to when she finally admit her true intentions of her wish in episode 7 near the end. In the last episode, she finally came to ACCEPT (notice I said ACCEPT) the fact there isn't anything she can do for/with him other to hope that Hitomi would take care of him. But the matter of the fact is that she originally made the wish because she wanted to be with him. I'll mention again what Mami said to her and how she wasn't clear minded with she made her wish. She was blinded by the fact that he was drifting further and further to the point where there was going to be nothing between them which led her to desperately make her wish. It's another one of those twist where something like this doesn't end the way people usually see it end which would be her making this wish for him to be better then he falls in love with her and... THE END. No. Not that simple. She died a tragic heroine.

Lastly me bringing up the point about Madoka killing Mami was just an example of impulsive action and how Mami's action in killing Sakura was also one of impulsive rather than her being weak or some other reason.
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PyronIkari

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 02:58:02 PM »

making this wish for him to Lots of words

... So... if you saw someone you really cared about, or even loved... you wouldn't feel sad and try to make them feel better unless you got something out of it too?

Replace him with her little brother. Her little brother is a genius violist that she loves. He gets into an accident and loses his ability to play which up until then has been a huge portion of his life. He breaks down and gives up on music and essentially life because he lost music.

Do you think Sayaka would be like "Sup, not going to make the wish because I have no romantic interest in you". You act like you've never done anything for the sake of others and that it's unnatural to want to do something for someone you care about. Did she really like the guy? Yes but the more important thing was that she cared about him beyond the *selfish* reasoning of wanting to be with him. She cared more about *his well being*.

She made the wish for him to want to live again. She wanted to hear him play the violin, she wanted him to strive for life. The irony is that, it caused her to have to fight for her will to survive after she believed she was no longer human.

Quote
Well I don't think it would because she wouldn't have made a wish to begin with. For what reason does she have to make a wish on someone for some other reason.
This really sickens me by the way.

You seem to know nobody that has had something terrible happen to them. You have never seen someone in a truely great depression where it consumes them. Or give up on part of their lives? If this is the case, you're pretty lucky, but your naivity still sickens me.
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LordKefka

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 04:01:50 PM »

Of course I would try and do something for the person I loved. You know, I don't even think you read what I wrote or understood what I'm trying to say. I already covered what you said and I don't know how many times I have to point to episode 7 where she admitted that... she blatantly admitted that fact. However in the end of the series, she realized though she can no longer be by his side since she was no longer human, she prays that at least Hitomi would take care of him.

Let's say he was replaced with her little brother and let's go with what you said ok? Yeah, of course she'll make the wish for his sake. Will she go into despair after finding out what she signed herself up for after sacrifice her humanity? Probably not because she made a commitment for her little brothers sake and this is where I'm getting at: because the very wish she made backfired on her after Hitomi told her she was going to tell him she loved him. Sayaka realized there is nothing she can do and everything she had hoped for from the wish she made came crashing down on her leading into hopelessness and depression. The purpose of the wish was for him to get better and she couldn't bare to see the person she loves suffer. She made a sacrifice and exchange of her humanity and for what? Only for Hitomi to take her place while she fights Witches in vain and for nothing? She questioned what was the purpose of the wish? If she was truly happy with her decision and the wish she made and the outcome, then she would not fall into despair.

Near the end as I said probably a dozen times by now, she truly loved him and wanted to be by his side but realized she can not. No where did she say she regrets the decision to become a mahou shoujo because of the fact that she lost her humanity in exhcnage. She made a selfless sacrifice and accepted the decision she made. But the wish she made initially was due to the fact that she saw him drifting further and further away from her and she was desperate and needed a solution to stop the spiral of grief.

And for the record, I don't appreciate you lecturing me or acting like you have the right to judge me especially when you misunderstood what I meant. I find that naive and ignorant myself. You make a pretty self righteous comment but here is a reality check for you: if you had a passive relationship with someone and you saw that person suffering, would to do something more than sympathy or empathy and sacrifice your own life to protect? And I'm saying this on the record of my stance of IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY FORM OF LOVE OR CONNECTION WITH THAT PERSON. Right now, if you saw someone you kinda know and he/she needs a kidney, would you give up your kidney? Would you donate bone marrow for someone with leukemia to someone that you didn't truly love or are a part of that person's life? Cut your cheap talk. I=Either way, I suggest getting back to actually talking about the show. You have your opinion and I have mine and I have already pointed out the points and support I made and found. Keep it to that.


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PyronIkari

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Re: Madoka Magica Discussion *spoilers included of course*
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2011, 04:53:17 PM »

Then you're just dumb and don't understand what it means to care about someone. I didn't misunderstand anything because it still applies in every single which way.

Sayaka made the wish for him, not for herself it was pretty selfless in principle but with selfish aftertones. At the point she made the wish she probably would have given up her own life for him(because in the end that's what she ends up deciding it was anyways).

You think something as petty and dumb as what you said would cause despair over the sacrifice she already made? Please, what a joke.

Actually yes, I would donate bone marrow to someone I knew as an acquantince if it matched and they needed it to live. Donating a kidney is different because finding a kidney match is much easier than finding bone marrow matching. But in a matter of life or death, yeah I would, without hesitation. If it was a complete stranger? Then I'd have to think about it, but I probably would based on a handful of situationals.

But you're comparing something completely different. That's saving their life in an emergency compared to pulling someone else out of complete despair and depression. To give someone who has given up on their life a reason to live.

I used to do counsoling work when I was younger. Most of the kids I saw had normal teenage problems, not all of them though. When you put yourself out on the line like that, something as petty or minor as that is just something you can make a focal point out of. It's something to complain about that doesn't actually carry any merit. And from what you just said i'm now fairly sure you have never had to put yourself on the line for someone else in a selfless way to understand this. If you want to believe otherwise, that's fine, but seriously... you don't get this at all.
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