Suggestions

[Nyxyin]

That list I made in my earlier post was a list of ALL the series that this thread has suggested for her. ALL of them. Including Tsukuyomi.

I'm feeling very slighted and hurt now.  ;_;

[PyronIkari]

That's a good point.  I have been into anime for a while by now, so I guess I probably did pick up more cultural background than the average newbie, but I'm not really that much into Japanese culture.  In defense of my suggestion, I get the impression that the person we're trying to make suggestions for would not be one of the normal "Adult Swim" crowd.  Otherwise, she probably would've already gotten hooked by Cartoon Network, and the original poster wouldn't have needed to ask for suggestions.  I think people who are interested in soap operas are more likely than the Adult Swim crowd to be able to just pick up things like how Japanese bullying works from context.  Still, I think you do have a good point.

Most of the time, you could say that, but not with Japanese bullying. Even when people see it in different comics, they still usually don't grasp why it's the way it is there. Because they have an American outlook and know about American bullys they tend to push that idea onto the Japanese outlook, and it doesn't work. The major difference between the two is why bullies act the way they do. Bullies in the US bully kids to make themselves feel superior and better. Bullies in Japan do it, to make the person feel weak, and non-existant. How they do it is very different, and that's why a lot of kids commit suicide in Japan. Battling a bully in the states means standing up for yourself, you can't do that in Japan. Standing up for yourself just makes things worse. They basically try to erase your existance, so that no one notices you, or pays any attention to you.

The entire mentallity of Jigoku Shoujo is a Japanese mentallity of "you are powerless and you shouldn't fight back". Japanese people are taught not to question their superiors, not to raise arguements, and to bear the pain you're given, and smile as you do you work. You have to put everything into your job and everything into studying because that is how you prove you are a good citizen. Again, that's why the suicide rate is so high in Japan. There are lots of nuances that the series plays on in the overall culture and mentallity. A series that I know a lot of people couldn't follow correctly.

I haven't seen Blood+ at all, but I saw Blood, and I thought it was average.  In spite of it being about vampires (and in spite of me liking vampires), the movie didn't interest me.  It completely lacked anything I like about "American vampires" -- or "Anne Rice vampires" if you prefer.  (Anne Rice was born and raised in Louisiana, so I think her stories qualify as "American".)  I don't think Anne Rice started the particular segment of vampire genre that I'm referring to, but if I had to choose one set of vampire stories that best represents what I like about "American vampires", it'd be Anne Rice.  I don't know if that's what the person in question likes about vampire stories, but it's just what I immediately think of when someone puts "romanticism" and "vampires" together.

From what you said, it sounds like the problem with Blood+ and Trinity Blood might be that there's a lot of not-interesting stuff to slog through before getting to the good parts, and a newbie who didn't like Hellsing seems likely to give up on anime completely before getting to the second half of a series.

Anne Rice does do things that paly off original stories. Bram Stoker's, Dracula was a very romantic person. Blood+ has a lot of wading and action to get through before you start understanding the story of the characters. It's a tragic series but not until they start opening up the characters and what they feel(The introduction of who/what Diva is).

Meh, I didn't fall in love with Tamahome, but I agree that Fushigi Yuugi is probably a good enough choice for a gateway anime.  I liked Ayashi no Ceres much better.  I had only been into anime for about a year when I came across Ayashi no Ceres, so I don't think it requires much cultural background.  I think the anime explained all the culture stuff I needed.

Oh, I agree completely with Ayashi no Ceres as well. ^^

I haven't seen the anime, but the manga refers to a lot of things that seem specific to Japanese folklore.  The whole concept of hitsuzen seems out of my grasp, and while there weren't many of them, I thought the references to Tsubasa Chronicles were rather annoying.  (That said, I do like the XXXHolic manga.  Not as much as I like Petshop of Horrors, but it's still good.)

Their minor and unimportant references to understand the main point. The anime was made more simple than the comic, I'm not a fan of either, but I usually don't like Clamp's work to be honest. It's a little to over the top and catering to females. It's a reason why I suggest it.

I don't have opinions about the series because I've only seen one episode of a fansub in a club, but if that series is going to be given any sort of chance whatsoever, please skip the intro.  If I could've gone somewhere else and made it back to the club in time for the next anime, I would've walked out of the show due to the intro.  Hopefully, they had the sense to remove the intro from auto-playing on the DVDs.  The actual first episode did show some potential, but I think that intro utterly sinks the anime.

The further it goes the more the series is a reflection of the opening. It starts straying away from a point to just be cute a lot.

I thought RG Veda was a good manga.  However, I encountered the OAV first, and while I did think it was interesting, I thought it was more confusing than interesting.  (But that's why I had to get the manga...)  It's not bad, but I thought the anime by itself is confusing and unsatisfying.

Point taken, maybe she shouldn't watch it then.

Hi!  That isn't a list of all the shows suggested.  You left out ALL of my soap opera suggestions.  I agree that Peach Girl, Paradise Kiss, Hana Yori Dango, and Marmalade Boy are all over the top, but the person likes soap operas, many of which use the same over-the-top elements as these shoujo series.  Granted, the soap opera-like anime tend to be aimed at a younger audience than soap operas, but we have no idea if they might work since we don't know the girl.  "Over the top" might be exactly what she's looking for.  I think those four series I named fit in with 90210 very well.  I also think they're very easily accessible to any culture -- high school cliques seem to be nasty everywhere.

I'm afraid that peach girl, hana yori dango, and marmalade boy will turn her away due to the art. Well maybe not Peach Girl, but the other two definitely. The art is rather girlish and the drama is a little over the top. Although it's really mature in subject matter and what not, I don't think she'll see it as that. I think after she starts getting used to the styling, all of them would be great suggestions.

[Jun-Watarase]

Anyways, to save the OP trouble... here's a list of all the series suggested so far. Which ones to show her friend is entirely up to her. ... Paradise Kiss might be a good drama/romance series, too, but it can be... over-the-top, sometimes.

Hi!  That isn't a list of all the shows suggested.  You left out ALL of my soap opera suggestions.

Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I must've missed it. Sorry. XD;

Vampire-related:
Karin
Tsukuyomi: Moon Phase
Trinity Blood
Shingetsutan Tsukihime
Rosario+Vampire
Vampire Knight
Vampire Princess Miyu
Gankutsuou

Action & Fantasy:
Romeo x Juliet
12 Kokuki
Mermaid Forest - Series
Jigoku Shoujo
Yami no Matsuei
Fushigi Yuugi
Ayashi no Ceres
Saiunkoku
Princess Tutu
Angel Sanctuary
Red Garden
XXXHolic
RG Veda
Cardcaptor Sakura
Sailor Moon
Revolutionary Girl Utena

Drama:
Peace Girl
Paradise Kiss
Marmalade Boy
Hana Yori Dango
Emma
Marriage

That list I made in my earlier post was a list of ALL the series that this thread has suggested for her. ALL of them. Including Tsukuyomi.

I'm feeling very slighted and hurt now.  ;_;

Gah! I'm really sorry. I really didn't mean to. @__@;

[Nyxyin]

Gah! I'm really sorry. I really didn't mean to. @__@;

All better now!  Thanks for the updated list!  :)

I think Twelve Kingdoms is a great anime, by the way.

From a quick web search, Saiunkoku looks very pretty.  I guess I'm out of it, since I haven't heard of that anime before either.  It looks like it might be a cross between Twelve Kingdoms and Fushigi Yuugi.

[aznmagic2015]

How about Revolutionary Girl Utena? It deals with tons of romanticism. It may not be vampire romanticism but it has all that classic heroism with princes etc. It has a nice shoujo feel to it so it might appeal to your friend. However she might be turned off by mass amounts of symbolism...I know I was. Just start her off with the series and not the movie. Movie is confusing as hell.

[Jun-Watarase]

How about Revolutionary Girl Utena? It deals with tons of romanticism. It may not be vampire romanticism but it has all that classic heroism with princes etc. It has a nice shoujo feel to it so it might appeal to your friend. However she might be turned off by mass amounts of symbolism...I know I was. Just start her off with the series and not the movie. Movie is confusing as hell.

I'm not sure, but I feel that Utena might be a bit overwhelming.

[aznmagic2015]

Yeah I agree...the symbolism in the series would be overwhelming. But if her friend is an avid reader she could follow along. Utena still has a nice romantic angle that could be enjoyed without figuring out the symbolism. I didn't get most of the symbolism when I first watched it. I was like "LOL WTF is this shit!?!?!" a couple of times but I still kinda enjoyed it.

[Nyxyin]

I'm going to stray away from anime and manga a bit here to address this...

Most of the time, you could say that, but not with Japanese bullying. Even when people see it in different comics, they still usually don't grasp why it's the way it is there. Because they have an American outlook and know about American bullys they tend to push that idea onto the Japanese outlook, and it doesn't work. The major difference between the two is why bullies act the way they do. Bullies in the US bully kids to make themselves feel superior and better. Bullies in Japan do it, to make the person feel weak, and non-existant. How they do it is very different, and that's why a lot of kids commit suicide in Japan. Battling a bully in the states means standing up for yourself, you can't do that in Japan. Standing up for yourself just makes things worse. They basically try to erase your existance, so that no one notices you, or pays any attention to you.

The entire mentallity of Jigoku Shoujo is a Japanese mentallity of "you are powerless and you shouldn't fight back". Japanese people are taught not to question their superiors, not to raise arguements, and to bear the pain you're given, and smile as you do you work. You have to put everything into your job and everything into studying because that is how you prove you are a good citizen. Again, that's why the suicide rate is so high in Japan. There are lots of nuances that the series plays on in the overall culture and mentallity. A series that I know a lot of people couldn't follow correctly.

Thank you very much for explaining all that.  I didn't really understand what you had meant by "Japanese bullying" earlier.

However, I don't think what you typed is uniquely Japanese, and I think it's very much present in much of the United States.  I would guess that you and the people you're talking about who don't understand it either aren't female or Christian or are raised during or after the tech boom era.  I think the ("American") reaction to bullying you're talking about was rather male in nature until after politically-correct jargon had reached subconscious integration into the population around the mid-to-late 90's or so.  Until that point, what you describe as reactions to "Japanese bullying" strikes me as what gets taught to little Christian girls.  I'm not Christian, but I got sent to a Catholic elementary school for a year (yes, in the United States), and that's exactly what I was taught: always obey God without question (and authority figures know more about what God wants than you do), take whatever misfortune life hands out without complaint because God might be testing you (as in the story of Job), don't argue (because God is always right and we puny humans are incapable of understanding the reason anyways), and work hard, behave, and suffer in silence during this life because God will know and it will earn you a better afterlife.

Furthermore, girls are supposed to be sugar and spice and everything nice.  Until the 90s or so, girls have also been trained to not fight back overtly either.  Girls are taught to play the social game.  Unless they're still pre-teens today, I think American girls are likely to understand "Japanese bullying" better than American boys.  A lot of boys seem to remain blissfully unaware of the subtle psychological environments that girls have to go through when growing up.  I think it prepares girls better for understanding social nuances such as the ones you called "Japanese bullying".

So, I don't really know much about Japanese culture, but I do understand what you said is "Japanese bullying" from an American point of view.

And, even if people don't understand every last culture-specific nuance, I think Jigoku Shoujo was still an intriguing series without full understanding.  Hm... Maybe I should learn more about Japanese culture and watch it again to see if I get even more out of it...

[BrightHeart76]

How about Revolutionary Girl Utena? It deals with tons of romanticism. It may not be vampire romanticism but it has all that classic heroism with princes etc. It has a nice shoujo feel to it so it might appeal to your friend. However she might be turned off by mass amounts of symbolism...I know I was. Just start her off with the series and not the movie. Movie is confusing as hell.

I'm not sure, but I feel that Utena might be a bit overwhelming.

100% agree.  That series was great in the begining, but creeped me out by the end.  It's a great series, but not something I'd start her off with.

There have been some really great suggestions.  I'm particularly fond of the Count of Monte Cristo.  I was a HUGE Dumas fan in school and I've been looking for a reason to make myself buy this one.  :D She's an avid reader too, so she might really enjoy that.  I'll have to talk to her and see if she was a Dumas fan as well.

In all honesty I think Fushigi Yuugi might win in the long run.  But this gives me a great list to work from, including some suggestions of series I think I want to look into for myself.  I really appreciate the thought everyone put into this. 

[PyronIkari]

Sorry to sorta high-jack this thread BrightHeart

Thank you very much for explaining all that.  I didn't really understand what you had meant by "Japanese bullying" earlier.

However, I don't think what you typed is uniquely Japanese, and I think it's very much present in much of the United States.  I would guess that you and the people you're talking about who don't understand it either aren't female or Christian or are raised during or after the tech boom era.  I think the ("American") reaction to bullying you're talking about was rather male in nature until after politically-correct jargon had reached subconscious integration into the population around the mid-to-late 90's or so.  Until that point, what you describe as reactions to "Japanese bullying" strikes me as what gets taught to little Christian girls.  I'm not Christian, but I got sent to a Catholic elementary school for a year (yes, in the United States), and that's exactly what I was taught: always obey God without question (and authority figures know more about what God wants than you do), take whatever misfortune life hands out without complaint because God might be testing you (as in the story of Job), don't argue (because God is always right and we puny humans are incapable of understanding the reason anyways), and work hard, behave, and suffer in silence during this life because God will know and it will earn you a better afterlife.

Furthermore, girls are supposed to be sugar and spice and everything nice.  Until the 90s or so, girls have also been trained to not fight back overtly either.  Girls are taught to play the social game.  Unless they're still pre-teens today, I think American girls are likely to understand "Japanese bullying" better than American boys.  A lot of boys seem to remain blissfully unaware of the subtle psychological environments that girls have to go through when growing up.  I think it prepares girls better for understanding social nuances such as the ones you called "Japanese bullying".

I was born and raised Catholic, and I have 4 older sisters.

Girls would understand it a little better, but I emphasize only a little better. The level it's done in Japan isn't even close to what is done in the US. In the US, it's extreme if someone sabotages a relationship, or tries to humiliate them by having stuff dumped on them while they're in the bathroom. Things in teen movies are seen as extreme... Things in teen movies are a *JOKE* compared to the extremes that can happen in Japan.

When a girl in the US gets gang raped by 5 guys because a girl doesn't like her... then you'll be able to tell me it's similar in the US. Granted this doesn't happen everyday at every school or anything like that, but it does happen, and it's not as selective as "oh it's an isolated even that happened once" kind of thing either. People getting locked in sheds... things to completely break them down. Driving someone to suicide, is almost a goal.

So, I don't really know much about Japanese culture, but I do understand what you said is "Japanese bullying" from an American point of view.

And, even if people don't understand every last culture-specific nuance, I think Jigoku Shoujo was still an intriguing series without full understanding.  Hm... Maybe I should learn more about Japanese culture and watch it again to see if I get even more out of it...

In Jigoku Shoujo, the basis of everything they do is so Japanese oriented. You can understand the basis of the story, but you can't really understand the characters and why they act the way they do unless you understand the culture. I honestly don't expect people to believe or fully understand what I mean by that. There's just so much Japanese mentallity that goes into the characters that knowing is a subtle difference between seeing actions and seeing why the actions exist.

BrightHeart: Gankutsuo is one of the best series I've seen in general. It's definitely worth getting.

[Nyxyin]

When a girl in the US gets gang raped by 5 guys because a girl doesn't like her... then you'll be able to tell me it's similar in the US.

I suppose the following incident is two guys short, the motive isn't clear, nor is it certain she did it, but the concept of girl-instigated gang rape isn't foreign here, or at least not foreign to Los Angeles: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/wnba/2003-08-13-byears-investigation_x.htm  "Former WNBA player Latasha Byears [...] and three men who have no connection to the Sparks allegedly raped the victim".

[PyronIkari]

Yeah, but that's 30 year old women, not high school(or even Jr. High School) girls. Pictures of said girl getting raped isn't being passed around the school. She isn't getting threatened with acts on her little sister.

The mentallity in Japan on a lot of things are very different than in the US. Work ethic, how they view people, and how people think they're supposed to act. Let's go with less extreme. Why do so many salary men commit suicide in Japan? Because they don't speak, or act, and dedicate their lives to their work, because they're raised to do that. In Japan, you don't take sick days unless you are REALLY sick. You have a fever, bad cough, too bad... you take medicine, put on a medical mask, and go to work. Your boss is stupid and screws up things, and you have to fix it, don't dare bring it up, because that would mean talking badly about someone.

This one isn't too hard to understand, because it does happen a lot in the US. But ignoring things, and pretending they're not happening. You walk along the street, and a woman falls down... do you stop to look, or help? In Japan people will glance, and continue walking without a second thought to help her. You see someone stealing something, do you mention it to the workers there, or do you pretend not to see it? If someone stands in your way do you say something to them to get out of the way, or do you quietly just shift to the side and attempt to get around them?

Japanese mentallity is to try to cause as little problem, try to bring as little attention, and try to not disrupt anything in anyway shape or form. Things are slowly changing from this mindset, but it's still very apparent. I could be a total asshole, and block the escalator at a busy train station, and frankly, no one would say anything to me... they'd just try their best to get around. Even if I moved back and forth to block them even more, no one would really say anything, and if someone had the balls to, I'd just start cussing in English, and I know they'd shut up, put their head down and just try to get pass. They'd probably apologize to me, if they bumped into my shoulder while trying to get pass as well.

Really, the understanding of the JP culture is a lot different than people think. A lot of people make bad assumptions due to media, comics, cartoons, and badly written news reports. There's hints of truths in these mediums, but for the most part, a lot of them are horrible ways to learn about the culture. Most of what I learned from the culture was through various people that I met growing up, my friends parents, friends I met, and things that I actually looked up on my own(not through normal sources like news and what not, but through journals and private JP forums). The anonyminity of the internet allowed a lot of people to release their frustrations and what not without fear of being looked down upon by colleagues and peers.

It's a lot about mentallity. The JP mentallity is so very different than the American mentallity.

[BrightHeart76]

Sorry to sorta high-jack this thread BrightHeart

No worries.  I got the information I needed, and this is a logical progression of the conversation.  It's actually very interesting to read.    :D