Best of...ROMANTIC DRAMA

[LordKefka]

This is why I no longer care to reason or waste my time with certain people. Maybe if opinions can be respected, more posts will be made. But for now... naaa

Anyways, for the topic

Bokura Ga Ita.. kinda.
Hana Yori Dango ( at least the second half of it)
KGOR
KGNE.. maybe slightly
Video Girl Ai (although more like a live-triangle like DNA^2)
SaiKano

Few more I'm missing which I don't care to try and remember atm.

[Nyxyin]

Flipping a coin and getting heads 2 times in a row, does not make the third flip more likely to be either heads or tails.

The third flip, which has not happened yet, is still something rather close to 50/50.  The first two flips, which already came up heads, have a 100% probability of being heads if we assume that we can't change the past.

You point out specifics, the terminology is about overall and general instances. I can find millions of similarities, and millions of likes, but their is still a general air of people that creates differences.

And the "general air" that people notice is based a lot on where they're looking and what point of view they're coming from.

Based on your reasoning, everyone is an exact neutral, which isn't the case, otherwise there would be no such things as similar people or different people.

No, similar people or different people -- the overall effect -- depends on the point of view being used.  What is more important, is shown to, or stands out more for the viewer.  In KareKano, the students in the school were commenting how much Yukino and Arima are alike and how much they just belong together.  The reader in the story is shown how much they're different.  In reality, humans are very complex, and general impressions depend on point of view.

It's about the general base of ther personality, and how they view the world and different things. General views and opinion. Not specifics...

Yukino and Arima both have very positive outlooks on the world.  They have a deep respect of their parents and teachers, and they try very hard to be well-behaved and good students.  They took their clubs and schoolwork seriously.  When they met, they're both on the academic achievement track, and they had basically the same goals of growing up and becoming a productive and respectable members of society.  They're both Japanese, and they're the same age.  They go to the same school and participate in the same culture.  Generally, their attitudes towards the world are far more similar to each other than to that of anybody else in the show.  From that point of view, I'd have to say that KareKano is about how people who are similar belong together.  On the other hand, earlier, you had said that KareKano is one of the shows that teach that opposites attract.  I think you're right about that too: Arima and Yukino are opposites in many ways as well.  Overall, KareKano is realistic partly because it does show that people are complex, and it's not as easy as saying that opposites attract or similar people belong together.

Your whole point was that...  It's realistic, because I think so based on what I've seen in my life.

My opinion is, in general, outside of specifics like exact magnitude of achievement, KareKano is more generally and emotionally realistic than Hana Yori Dango and about as realistic as Genshiken overall.  I do agree that, depending on the point of view, none of them are realistic, and all of them have some element of realism.  I did explicitly put in words saying things like KareKano is more realistic "for me".

I replied with how your experiences are extremely minimal especially about a foreign country you know nothing about.

I'm saying that humans are very much alike, especially across first world countries, and at the same time, I doubt even twins raised together completely understand each other.  "Nothing" and "extremely minimal" are relative; I have visited 20 countries (including Japan and China), and whether anybody decides that humans are alike or different merely depends on where their limited focus is currently cast.  People can easily be right without the opposite opinions being wrong.  The world is very complex and vast and has room for very many points of view.

In addition to that, your experiences/examples are only remotely similar, and do not match up to the magnitude in which the original basis is the subject. I can eat a 5 hamburgers. That is eating a lot(for sake of arguement). If someone eats 500 in a cartoon, my eating a lot of hamburgers(let's even say 50), it doesn't mean that it's the same as eating 500 in cartoon. Eating 500 is unrealistic, my example of eating a whole crap load, does not mean it is realistic.

If we're talking generally rather than specifically, then specific details like whether it was 5 or 500 hamburgers just generally isn't important.  The point is that it's a lot of hamburgers.  The series can still be realistic in general.  When saying that this hamburger-eating anime scene isn't realistic, the person simply decided to concentrate on the fact that it was 500 hamburgers instead of 5.  When saying that this scene is realistic, the person decided to concentrate on the idea that this hungry person wolfed down a lot of hamburgers without regarding social convention, which is realistic.  "Realistic" depends on point of view.

After that, you started stating that "it's realistic because it happened in the past" to which i replied it doesn't. Statistics do not change, without major influence, as well, statistics do not change because of a prior outcome.

Sure they do.  Statistics change all the time.  That's why people are constantly taking them.  If nobody was murdered in Los Altos last year, then 0 people were murdered in Los Altos last year.  If, this year, one person murders someone else there, then 1 person was murdered in Los Altos this year.  The statistic has changed.  And, because we structured social probabilities on statistics (which is technically rather invalid), that means that the probability has changed.

As I have displayed with the coin flip example.

That coin still has a head and a tail.  The coin hasn't grown.  Its health hasn't been influenced by pollution in the environment.  It hasn't met new coins, and it hasn't learned new things.  It has no perception of probability of its own.  It has no memory.  It also hasn't been put into different situations.  If you flip a coin into a funnel that has a slot at the end, the probability that it will land on its side goes up.  The probability of something happening within a changing and diverse environment is constantly changing.

They (Yukino and Arima) are not realistic for a number of reasons. Their relationship, and how it proceeded.

That's what I was saying about geeks and nerds.  It's realistic for people who concentrate that hard on their schoolwork and are so dedicated to their club activities.  It's not so improbable for people who figure out how to function within society but not have figured out how to function in an intimate relationship or what to do with the opposite sex.  It's realistic for a rival to end up as a best friend.  It seems realistic for a well-bred boy to wants sex and be ashamed/afraid about even thinking about doing it.  What's not realistic about their relationship or how it progressed?

"A few people do go turkey hunting in Texas near thanksgiving" is realistic." However "Texans go turkey hunting near thanksgiving" is a lie. Just because "some do" doesn't mean the generalized statement becomes true or realistic.

However, statistics vary.  If one year, 51% of Texans went turkey hunting, but the next year, only 30% go, does that mean that an anime about Texans going turkey hunting is "realistic" one year but not the next?  Chances are that the people who lived through the 51% year are more likely to find the anime about turkey-hunting Texans to be realistic in general, while those who didn't are going to think of Texans going turkey hunting as less realistic in general.  Regardless, even if only 10% of Texans go turkey-hunting on Thanksgiving, an anime about turkey-hunting Texans can be considered realistic by a lot of people.

You miss the point of what makes something realistic. A few facts does not make something realistic.

"Realistic", as commonly used by lay people in normal speech, is merely a perception, not a theoretical probability.

An extreme example, but a statement that, a few small facts of realistic personalities, does not make a CHARACTER realistic. Nor their situations.

If someone watches an anime and it pretty much tells the story of a segment of their life and many friends report the same experience, then trying to assert that the anime isn't realistic isn't going to work very well.  The situations match, the emotions match, the way events unfolded match, the reactions match, the decisions match, the conclusions match, etc.  OK, maybe it was 7 hamburgers instead of a shapeless mountain of hamburgers, but it's still a lot of hamburgers, and such tiny details just aren't important: the anime overall can still be realistic.

Even TV shows in the US depend on the audience on whether they're found "realistic" or not.  Rosanne Barr, for example.  I thought it was over-the-top comedy and that Rosanne was a total caricature.  On the other hand, other people say they see it as realistic and a reflection of their lives.  If "realistic" isn't based in reality, then it's very much relative.  Me being right doesn't make them wrong.  In reality, there are too many factors to accurately calculate a true overall probability without saying a whole lot about the person trying to do the calculation.

Most people do not, but their situations and their actions all are realistic, outside of Kousaka and Saki. How they act is very much like they do. Just to let you in, I visited the college and the club Genshiken was based on while in Japan.

So, Genshiken is realistic because it's very similar to the people in the one club that it's based on.  Out of how many Japanese?  Millions?  Billions?  In the end, the idea that Genshiken is realistic or not seems to be very much colored by the viewer's experiences as well.

I'm in circles that are EXTREMELY similar to the people within the clubs. Personalities, spending habits, etc. etc. etc. are extremely similar. Their actions and thoughts are not to the point of extremity(outside of Kohsaka and Saki)that normal humans don't act like that.

And I'm saying that the personalities of Arima and Yukino are extremely similar to people I know as well.  People I know act like that and think like that.  Yes, Shibahime is a caricature, for example, but she's the 500th hamburger -- in much the same way that Kohsaka and Saki are the 500th hamburger for you.  For me, KareKano is as realistic as Genshiken is for you.

[Nyxyin]

Bokura Ga Ita.. kinda.

The thread started with Bokura ga Ita.

KGOR
KGNE.. maybe slightly

Sorry to be clueless, but what do those stand for?

[LordKefka]

Bokura Ga Ita.. kinda.

The thread started with Bokura ga Ita.

KGOR
KGNE.. maybe slightly

Sorry to be clueless, but what do those stand for?

Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien and Kimagure Orange Road

[Nyxyin]

Kimagure Orange Road

Ah, I loved the music in that show.  I didn't recognize the abbreviation because I'm not used to seeing it with a "G" in there. 

[Nyxyin]

By the way, has anybody seen something called "Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora"?  Is it any good?

[PyronIkari]

[The third flip, which has not happened yet, is still something rather close to 50/50.  The first two flips, which already came up heads, have a 100% probability of being heads if we assume that we can't change the past.

And this has nothing to do with anything \o/ YAY.

And the "general air" that people notice is based a lot on where they're looking and what point of view they're coming from.

People's o[inions are based on the perspective, the actuallity isn't based on opinions though.

No, similar people or different people -- the overall effect -- depends on the point of view being used.  What is more important, is shown to, or stands out more for the viewer.  In KareKano, the students in the school were commenting how much Yukino and Arima are alike and how much they just belong together.  The reader in the story is shown how much they're different.  In reality, humans are very complex, and general impressions depend on point of view.

Again, no. The opinions of similarities and differences are based on point of view, but the actuallity isn't. Yukino and Arima ARE similar people in end result, but extremely different in reasoning and understanding at the start of the story. Arima's entire view about life, and everything changes half way through the story, and they become incredibly similar. Realistically, they're not very similar at all at the beginning of the story, but based on appearances they SEEM similar.

Yukino and Arima both have very positive outlooks on the world.

Stop right there. Now I know we didn't read/watch the same story. Arima HATED the world. He hated EVERYTHING the world represented, he hated Yukino for getting close to him, he hated himself for being weak, he hated his parents for leaving him, he hated all of his relatives, and his drive was to DEFEAT IT ALL. By beating everything completely, he would win. He despised everything about life, and multiple times wished he had died. How is that a "very positive outlook on the world".

From that point of view, I'd have to say that KareKano is about how people who are similar belong together.  On the other hand, earlier, you had said that KareKano is one of the shows that teach that opposites attract.  I think you're right about that too: Arima and Yukino are opposites in many ways as well.  Overall, KareKano is realistic partly because it does show that people are complex, and it's not as easy as saying that opposites attract or similar people belong together.

It portrayed emotions realistically(sorta...), but the characters and the events themselves were not. I've said that over and over again.

My opinion is, in general, outside of specifics like exact magnitude of achievement, KareKano is more generally and emotionally realistic than Hana Yori Dango and about as realistic as Genshiken overall.  I do agree that, depending on the point of view, none of them are realistic, and all of them have some element of realism.  I did explicitly put in words saying things like KareKano is more realistic "for me".

PARTS of KareKano are realistic, as PARTS of Hana Yori Dango is realistc. but EVERYTHING about Genshiken outside of Kousaka and Saki ARE realistic. KareKano's story, the characters, and the events are unrealistic. The emotional portrayal was done pretty well, but the events that caused them are unrealistic. Hana Yori Dango's relationship was unrealistic, but the portrayals were pretty realistic. Both series as a whole, were very unrealistic.

Genshiken as a whole, is very realistic.

I'm saying that humans are very much alike, especially across first world countries, and at the same time, I doubt even twins raised together completely understand each other.  "Nothing" and "extremely minimal" are relative; I have visited 20 countries (including Japan and China), and whether anybody decides that humans are alike or different merely depends on where their limited focus is currently cast.  People can easily be right without the opposite opinions being wrong.  The world is very complex and vast and has room for very many points of view.

Your arguement comes down to "you can specifiy anything down to the exact", so my generalizations and ever changing meanings wins. It's a "you can't prove that god doesn't exist, so he exists" arguement.

If we're talking generally rather than specifically, then specific details like whether it was 5 or 500 hamburgers just generally isn't important.  The point is that it's a lot of hamburgers.  The series can still be realistic in general.  When saying that this hamburger-eating anime scene isn't realistic, the person simply decided to concentrate on the fact that it was 500 hamburgers instead of 5.  When saying that this scene is realistic, the person decided to concentrate on the idea that this hungry person wolfed down a lot of hamburgers without regarding social convention, which is realistic.  "Realistic" depends on point of view.

It does matter, because that's what makes it real or not. The result is the same regardless, and that's the point of story telling, but the realism in the action isn't real because of the result. The action is either realistic or not, whether the result is or not. Their independent of each other.

Sure they do.  Statistics change all the time.  That's why people are constantly taking them.  If nobody was murdered in Los Altos last year, then 0 people were murdered in Los Altos last year.  If, this year, one person murders someone else there, then 1 person was murdered in Los Altos this year.  The statistic has changed.  And, because we structured social probabilities on statistics (which is technically rather invalid), that means that the probability has changed.

The event changes the statistic though, not the probability of it happening before. You're not even arguing logicalally and saying IF A->B then A -> Giraffe

That coin still has a head and a tail.  The coin hasn't grown.  Its health hasn't been influenced by pollution in the environment.  It hasn't met new coins, and it hasn't learned new things.  It has no perception of probability of its own.  It has no memory.  It also hasn't been put into different situations.  If you flip a coin into a funnel that has a slot at the end, the probability that it will land on its side goes up.  The probability of something happening within a changing and diverse environment is constantly changing.

What the hell are you arguing here? It doesn't even apply or make sense. You're basically just creating situations where you can go "NU-UH!"

That's what I was saying about geeks and nerds.  It's realistic for people who concentrate that hard on their schoolwork and are so dedicated to their club activities.  It's not so improbable for people who figure out how to function within society but not have figured out how to function in an intimate relationship or what to do with the opposite sex.  It's realistic for a rival to end up as a best friend.  It seems realistic for a well-bred boy to wants sex and be ashamed/afraid about even thinking about doing it.  What's not realistic about their relationship or how it progressed?

I've explained it multiple times, and you addressed none of them.

However, statistics vary.  If one year, 51% of Texans went turkey hunting, but the next year, only 30% go, does that mean that an anime about Texans going turkey hunting is "realistic" one year but not the next?  Chances are that the people who lived through the 51% year are more likely to find the anime about turkey-hunting Texans to be realistic in general, while those who didn't are going to think of Texans going turkey hunting as less realistic in general.  Regardless, even if only 10% of Texans go turkey-hunting on Thanksgiving, an anime about turkey-hunting Texans can be considered realistic by a lot of people.

... You don't realize that it's not percentage... it's "likelihoods". But think about that. Look how huge of a jump 21% is. You'd have better luck citing something that constantly changes... like "fashion". In which... yes... it would be realistic if X character dressed a certain way 1 year, but unrealistic if she did a different year. If the character was highly fashionable, and written to be highly fashionable, but wore something really unfashionable... then it's unrealistic(LOL this happens in crappy ass Megatokyo all the time).

"Realistic", as commonly used by lay people in normal speech, is merely a perception, not a theoretical probability.

Realistic is commonly used by lay people in normal speech for something that is unlikely to happen over likely to happen.

If someone watches an anime and it pretty much tells the story of a segment of their life and many friends report the same experience, then trying to assert that the anime isn't realistic isn't going to work very well.  The situations match, the emotions match, the way events unfolded match, the reactions match, the decisions match, the conclusions match, etc.  OK, maybe it was 7 hamburgers instead of a shapeless mountain of hamburgers, but it's still a lot of hamburgers, and such tiny details just aren't important: the anime overall can still be realistic.

You can perceive anything to be realistic, if you exaggerate and misinterperate and over-compensate, but just because "YOU" think it's something doesn't make it that way. Perception means jack shit realistically(LOL see what I did there?). Tiny details are what make everything what they are. Details are what make something realistic or not.

"I walked 5 miles in the snow to get to school every day, and only had shorts and a t-shirt to wear. And we had 8 hours of homework every night, and I had to raise the cows all on my own." The point is that his life was harder than yours is portrayed, that doesn't make his story realistic.

Have you ever seen Big Fish? That's the entire premise of the story. You can see something as unrealistic and over the top, and still get meaning out of it, and the unrealisticness and over the top, is what makes the story interesting. But you should realize the difference between realistic and unrealistic.

So, Genshiken is realistic because it's very similar to the people in the one club that it's based on.  Out of how many Japanese?  Millions?  Billions?  In the end, the idea that Genshiken is realistic or not seems to be very much colored by the viewer's experiences as well.

Not it's realistic because it's extremely realistic. Their actions and thought processes are very realistic within otaku circles. Their extremities, aren't extremities. That's how most otaku really are, and to that amount. The realism isn't changed just because some people don't believe that it's realistic... because the reality of the matter is... that it is. (see the "real" part of "realistic" is the same as "reality"). Opinions don't matter, I can think... Harry Potter is realistic, even though they're flying on brooms, shooting spells, and crap. And any non-stupid person would say "It's not realistic... there's people flying on brooms, shooting spells, and crap". Denial of reality does not make it realistic. It just means the person is dillusional and unaccepting of reality.

And I'm saying that the personalities of Arima and Yukino are extremely similar to people I know as well.  People I know act like that and think like that.  Yes, Shibahime is a caricature, for example, but she's the 500th hamburger -- in much the same way that Kohsaka and Saki are the 500th hamburger for you.  For me, KareKano is as realistic as Genshiken is for you.

No they aren't There are some similar traits to Arima and Yukino's, but their characters were made to be over the top and unrealistic. Arima's hatred for the world was masked perfectly. He was a horrible human being prior to Yukino shattering his mentallity. So you know people, that hate the world so  much, that they try their best to seem perfect(and succeed), and are trying this hard only to beat the reality they hate so much, to gain power over the world they hate. Not to mention it's impossible for this to be, because if you did know their secret, then it would destroy the illusion, thus making it all void. Catch-22, it'd be impossible for you to know someone like Arima.

LordKefka: STOP USING STUPID ABBREVIATIONS THAT NO ONE KNOWS.

Kimagure Orange Road normally if done like that is KOR. Most people call it Kimagure Orange Road though.

Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien is abbreviated KimiNozomu.

[Jun-Watarase]

By the way, has anybody seen something called "Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora"?  Is it any good?

I watched part of it, but I never finished. It's pretty cute, somewhat slow-paced and mellow from what I saw... It's not that it's bad, but it's not extraordinary, either. It's really short, so you could finish it in a couple of hours. Characters weren't very dimensional, but they were cute. This is just my opinion, though, and I hadn't finished the series.

[The third flip, which has not happened yet, is still something rather close to 50/50.  The first two flips, which already came up heads, have a 100% probability of being heads if we assume that we can't change the past.

And this has nothing to do with anything \o/ YAY.

It doesn't, but you don't have to be such a jerk about it. >=(

And Kimagura Orange Road is commonly abbreviated as KOR, and in English fandom, Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien is commonly abbreviated as KGNE. KimiNozomu is the short title generally used by Japanese fans. When I saw "KGOR", I got confused too... because of that G. -Babbles on about abbreviations.- I can barely keep up with all the abbreviations in text messaging. -Slams fist on table.- =,(

[Nyxyin]

The realism isn't changed just because some people don't believe that it's realistic... because the reality of the matter is... that it is. (see the "real" part of "realistic" is the same as "reality").

Reality hasn't changed because people don't think it's realistic.  However, you had defined "realistic" (and thus "realism") in such a way that reality -- what is actually real and what has actually happened -- isn't necessarily "realistic".

[PyronIkari]

Because it's not. Flipping a coin 50 times in a row, and it being heads all 50 times is unrealistic. But it's happened before.

In reality, it is unrealistic for it to happen. Unrealistic != impossible. Unrealistic merely means "Very unlikely to happen, near impossible, goes against the logical run of events".

[Nyxyin]

Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien is abbreviated KimiNozomu.

I usually see it as just "KimiNozo".

[JohnnyAR]

Does "Is" count? Because thats all I can think of for now

[Jun-Watarase]

Does "Is" count? Because thats all I can think of for now

'Twas suggested.

[mDuo13]

How many pages can one write about the probability of a series of coin flips being heads or tails?

Come on guys, this analogy has run its course.

On the topic of this post, the manga "Lament of the Lamb" (Japanese title, Hitsuji no Uta) is a compelling drama with some solid romantic elements, though if you can't handle high levels of angst, you might not be able to appreciate it (it's almost comical how the characters are always drawn frowning) but I definitely enjoyed it. And at only 7 volumes, it's reasonably easy to get the full thing (though it's just old enough to be left out of small manga sections in bookstores, so Amazon is the place to go). It might be lighter on "Romantic Drama" than some of the other series in this thread.

I'm also surprised that Saikano (Saishu Heiki Kanojo, or She, the Ultimate Weapon) hasn't been mentioned. It's a really depressing story but also a really good romance.

[Jun-Watarase]

How many pages can one write about the probability of a series of coin flips being heads or tails?

Come on guys, this analogy has run its course.

On the topic of this post, the manga "Lament of the Lamb" (Japanese title, Hitsuji no Uta) is a compelling drama with some solid romantic elements, though if you can't handle high levels of angst, you might not be able to appreciate it (it's almost comical how the characters are always drawn frowning) but I definitely enjoyed it. And at only 7 volumes, it's reasonably easy to get the full thing (though it's just old enough to be left out of small manga sections in bookstores, so Amazon is the place to go). It might be lighter on "Romantic Drama" than some of the other series in this thread.

I'm also surprised that Saikano (Saishu Heiki Kanojo, or She, the Ultimate Weapon) hasn't been mentioned. It's a really depressing story but also a really good romance.

SaiKano actually was suggested, too. It was kind of far-fetched, and cheesy... but I enjoyed it when I was younger. I didn't like the anime series too much, but the movie was a little more entertaining. That's just my opinion, though. My high school boyfriend and I kept a journal together like in the series. Hahaha... so cheesy.