State of the Industry

[DJ Laen]

The State of the Industry

The following was written by a convention owner. Please forward it to ALL fans of Anime.

The Otaku has a poll up on it's website right now asking how Anime Fans think the American Anime Industry is doing; the status of business. This immediately follows a report by the Anime News Network stating that anime DVD sales are down 20% for 2007. The overwhelming response to theOtaku's poll is the industry is just fine.

I am honestly surprised at how little otaku know about what is going on in the industry.

The Anime Industry.. not just in the US, is dying. There is a Japanese company doing Lucky Charms commercials to pay their bills. FUNimation is hurting but should make it after major surgery. ADV... I just hope we are not attending ADV's wake this fall.

Anime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry. Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it. One Thousand DVDs sold is a hit with anime. Fifty Thousand downloads of the same anime cost the Industry millions, and Fans pay by getting higher prices, and fewer anime choices.

Why have I brought this up? As I said, the industry is dying, and we - the fans - are holding the knife. It is time we stepped up and fixed the problem. The Illegal downloading has got to STOP. Don't assume that because you pay, it is ok. Many sites have stolen the anime they are distributing. FUNimation has anime available on ITunes. ADV has anime available for viewing on their website. Other anime companies also have options available.

Anime Clubs: Please, stop showing illegally downloaded anime. You are are first line of defense.

Anime Cons: Most cons have already joined the fight. Illegal anime is not shown in many viewing rooms. This is a good start. Now we need to get it out of the Dealer's Rooms and Artists Alleys. If you have a hard time distinguishing what is legitimate and what is bootlegged /Stolen, contact the studios. They have people trained in exactly this. You may get an extra guest out of it. At the very least, you will get the appreciation of an industry we all love.

I realize I am just one person. I cannot do this alone. The Industry cannot survive unless all fans join together. I suggest to ALL anime fans, if Greg Ayres is going to your local con, request (and attend) his Bootleg Panel. Some cons are starting to host "State of the Industry"... this is another great one to attend. Anime fans need to stay informed.


Joshua Andrade
Board of Directors, Atsuicon

We are the only ones to blame when Anime is no more.

The Otaku
www.theotaku.com
http://theotaku.com/news/view/oop:_does_this_count_as_big_business?/3454/

Anime News Network
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-02-13/icv2-north-american-anime-dvds-were-down-20-percent+in-2007

[Chun]

Anime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry...

I stopped reading right here. The notice lost all credibility when it starts blaming what created new opportunity a few years at its first appearance for many licensees. The reason for a lack of sales is not the fact people download more than what is purchased; it's the rampant licensing train that causes A) a delay in releases for shows that are no longer "in season" thus everyone has watched/obtained all, B) Too many titles to organize, too many royalties to buy, not enough compensation.

Anime is one of the biggest markets in Japan right now, and responsible for trillions of yen currently in their market. Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

~Chun

[Spiritsnare]

You make it sound like the convention owner is someone else, by the by.

[mDuo13]

in before the flamewar
I personally spend a fair amount on anime - not necessarily on DVDs, but on merchandise, and I still purchase disks when I really like a series. But if the anime industry in the US is seeing sales problems, they should consider all the causes. For one thing, anime competes directly with games for sales - and 2007 was a great year for video games. For another, anime comes out so sporadically that it's hard to follow - one DVD every month does not realistically equate to one episode per week, so it's a feast-or-famine business model that doesn't encourage serial purchases.

My personal dogma also skews towards dub-less releases for most if not all titles, and I think an iTunes-esque pay-per-download model for high-quality, quick sub releases, supplemented by a subscription model of some sort, would really encourage a lot more purchasing, especially if the first episodes of things were free (so as to allow "shopping around" and to draw interest). Amazon has a promising service for per-episode downloadable anime, but no titles of great interest to me are on there yet - it's missing the key component, which is speed. I think one week after the episode airs is a very reasonable compromise between allowing for quality work and keeping up with the trends in Japan - if I could get a professional subs of a series I liked at that pace, I think that'd be the most appealing method for me.

Then again, I know there are a lot of people who really appreciate the hardware of a DVD release, and there are plenty of people who really appreciate the dubs... but I think that, as far as the American anime market goes, that would be more of a secondary point of sale, sort of like selling DVDs of TV shows that air on domestic TV.

In short, even though I'm more or less against rampant freeloading and bootlegging of anime (downloading fansubs is OK if you still spend some money on anime merch), I think that it's up to the industry to change first and the consumers to modify their habits when reasonable alternatives are possible.

[PyronIkari]

Wow, this is filled with incorrect info all around. Both by those who are saying not to, and those that are saying the Anime industry is booming.

Just because the anime industry is everywhere, doesn't mean that the funds are everywhere as well. G'ah, work, gotta go. Anyways, if I remember I'll post back later.

Fansubs do hurt the industry, but not on that huge of a level, it's quite minor. The state in Japan...

Why do people make assumptions about the state in Japan when people don't know a thing?

[Mizuki]

Why do people make assumptions about the state in Japan when people don't know a thing?

Because they probably read it on Wikipedia, misread it and put it on here.

[Tony]

Anime is one of the biggest markets in Japan right now, and responsible for trillions of yen currently in their market. Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

... really? Tens of billions USD?  ???

I should point out that the notice was about video sales.

I would say video is much more critical in the US than other segments of the anime industry. If the video market collapses, it could take a lot down with it; dubs suffer, the networks suffer, then the whole industry suffers.

On the other hand, the manga market is getting stronger and will help to sustain merchandising and other revenues.

But back to the notice. It's a mistake to try to force the market to act in certain ways. mDuo13 put it well: yes, it's important to discourage illegal downloads, but the industry needs to be mostly reactive to the market. For example, I like mDuo13's idea iTunes-like model for sub releases; compared to fansubs, there's the promise of reliability, quality, speed, and legality. It barely competes against "free", but it's much, much better than complaining to the market that the current model isn't working.

[PyronIkari]

Yay back home from work. Let's make a long post that no one will read, and a lot of people will misinterperet.

I am honestly surprised at how little otaku know about what is going on in the industry.

Irony, because the person writing this doesn't know what's going on in the industry.

The Anime Industry.. not just in the US, is dying. There is a Japanese company doing Lucky Charms commercials to pay their bills. FUNimation is hurting but should make it after major surgery. ADV... I just hope we are not attending ADV's wake this fall.

Most companies do lots of things, not just release cartoon series. Commercials, ads, things for different shows, and lots of other things. You act like doing advertisements for other companies is a horrible bad thing. Think about this for a second...

An animation company... is doing animation work. Yeah, such a sad state isn't it.

Anime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry. Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it. One Thousand DVDs sold is a hit with anime. Fifty Thousand downloads of the same anime cost the Industry millions, and Fans pay by getting higher prices, and fewer anime choices.

This is not how the market works. Okay, yes, fansubs can, and do deter people from buying the series, as they've already seen it. However, at the same time it causes advertisement, and hype for the series. So now we have to look at it from a marketing perspective.

Let's even use your numbers(no, 1,000 dvds sold is not a hit). Fifty thousand downloads. First we know that all fifth thousand of those people were not going to buy the dvd to begin with. So that number is meaningless. You'd have to examine the number of people that WOULD HAVE bought the DVD had they not been able to download it in the first place, and compare this to the amount of people that NOW WILL buy the dvd because they know about the series. Things that factor in. People that have watched the fansubs, and because of it, want to buy the DVDs. Now, factor in how many of these people would have bought the DVD regardless and subtract those.

Then there's the people that don't watch fansubs, but because of hype from other people, and hearing about series, they watch said series because their friends tell them, and because it's popular on the web.

Of course, no one has the real numbers, and it's impossible to speculate and prove whether or not fansubs as a whole hurt the industry, or help... you can only look at it on the legal and invidual level.

You state "fewer choices" which is bull. You realize 80% of what is released in the US would never have made it out here, had it not been for fansubs. The DVD sales for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu(The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) wouldn't have sold nearly as many had it not been for the fansub hype, and the cultural phenomenon that arose because of it. Series like Rozen Maiden, would not come to the states had it not been for fansubbed. Here's how marketing works. People look at a product and say "will it sell to the average consumer". You realize, that hardcore anime fans, are not the average consumer. For every person that downloads series like... Akagi, there are 100 that have never heard of Akagi, and think Bleach, Full Metal Alchemist, and the rest of the Adult Swim line up is all there is to JP cartoons. Fansubs are what got companies to license the majority of series out there now, and the majority of comics that are out.

The music industry was BARELY affected by illegal downloads. Do real research before stupid statements like this are made.

Why have I brought this up? As I said, the industry is dying, and we - the fans - are holding the knife. It is time we stepped up and fixed the problem. The Illegal downloading has got to STOP. Don't assume that because you pay, it is ok. Many sites have stolen the anime they are distributing. FUNimation has anime available on ITunes. ADV has anime available for viewing on their website. Other anime companies also have options available.

Anime Clubs: Please, stop showing illegally downloaded anime. You are are first line of defense.

Anime Cons: Most cons have already joined the fight. Illegal anime is not shown in many viewing rooms. This is a good start. Now we need to get it out of the Dealer's Rooms and Artists Alleys. If you have a hard time distinguishing what is legitimate and what is bootlegged /Stolen, contact the studios. They have people trained in exactly this. You may get an extra guest out of it. At the very least, you will get the appreciation of an industry we all love.

I realize I am just one person. I cannot do this alone. The Industry cannot survive unless all fans join together. I suggest to ALL anime fans, if Greg Ayres is going to your local con, request (and attend) his Bootleg Panel. Some cons are starting to host "State of the Industry"... this is another great one to attend. Anime fans need to stay informed.

I have a question. What about imports? You realize the majority of JP culture strives off fanmade things right? They have conventions based around fan products and creations(Hint... Comiket is about fanmade products and only a small part of it is official stuff). What are we speaking about of "illegal downloads". Are we comparing someone downloading a DVD rip of the US release of the Bleach DVD, with someone downloading an episode of Angel Heart? Is it okay to show something like Angel Heart? It's just as illegal as that Bleach DVD, only it's international law that's being broken, and not really hurting any American companies. Is it wrong?

Realistically yes it is... but we don't see the results of it, and frankly, it's minor, even though it's wrong.

Artists alley... oh god. You're saying cons should crack down on fanart? Great, let's kill everything about fandom that'll help the industry... -_-

Anime is one of the biggest markets in Japan right now, and responsible for trillions of yen currently in their market. Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

And you're wrong here Chun. Trillions? No.

Japan's GDP=4.22trillion yen
Animation = 241.5 Billion

4.22trillion\241.5billion

Is 5.7%. Not exactly one of their biggest industries. Sure, it's not failing, but it's not super gigantic, OMG if JAPAN DOESN'T HAVE ANIMATION THEY DIES!

mDuo brings up a decent point about merchandise. But there's a lot of numbers that go into that to allocate whether or not it helps the industry and how much. Strangely... I don't know anyone that works in the merchandise industry outside of the merchandise that is made straight from the company... I need to make a new friend.

Knowledge is nice, knowing about what the hell you're talking about before you say it is how things happen for the better. Spouting out crap that doesn't apply but sorta makes sense due to lack of information and the such can CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS THAN THEY DO HELP.

Bottomline: downloads are illegal, and you shouldn't do it. Whether or not they hurt the industry or not isn't explained so simply and each show/episode has to be looked at individually and the statistics are impossible to get to prove it either way.

[Nyxyin]

I know there are a lot of people who really appreciate the hardware of a DVD release

That'd be me.  I like physical DVDs.  I love box sets and thinpaks even better.  The problem is that companies seem to release the individual DVDs first (taking their time doing it), and by the time they release the full set, the series is really old and everybody else has already seen it, so there's nobody left to talk to when I get around to it.  I would probably buy significantly more DVDs if my otaku friends were still interested in the series when the full sets get released in R1.  I think it is probably partly because they spend too much time on the dubs, partly because they grab too many titles at once, and partly because a lot of people are too impatient and watch within days of an episode coming out in Japan.  I own many hundreds (probably over a thousand by now -- it's difficult to count exact number of DVDs since my stuff is all in sets...) of anime DVDs, and I still can't find anything to show if I wanted an anime night with because my friends are either not fans of anime or they have already seen everything and have lost interest by the time the full sets get released.

I'd be very curious how many people actually buy the individual DVDs as they come out vs waiting for the full set.  An individual anime DVD normally costs 25% more than a blockbuster movie DVD, and the blockbuster movie DVDs are often sold with an extras disk.  I don't understand how people can afford to buy anime at such a high price.

Maybe having the downloadable low-cost ep strategy plus a physical full set would get the best of both worlds.

[PyronIkari]

whoaaa I totally screwed up in my last post.
4.22trillion dollars US(Japan's GDP)
2.026billion dollars US(Japan's market via anime)

2.026billion/4.22trillion
.0004% of Japan's market.

I totally read the thing wrong and wrote yen instead of dollars.

[phoenixphire24]

I agree that fan subs are a problem because there is a huge group of people that only watch fan-subs and NEVER buy anything. However, there are people like me, who do buy DVDs but are unwilling to do so without seeing part of a show first. I'm not going to buy things blindly. The industry can do a better job of

a) getting shows out faster
b) putting sub only episodes online for download 
c) releasing more shows in box set only (with or without dubs depending on the popularity of the show)
d) putting up a few episodes (say 1-3) online for free to let people preview the show before buying

There are very few shows that I am willing to buy disc to disc, and those are usually ones that I have seen before through fan-subs and really, really enjoy. Otherwise, I'm willing to rent from Netflix or wait for a box set which saves money and room. I do try and buy as many shows that I liked as I can because I want to support the industry. While I enjoy fan-subs, I could live without them.

[Nyxyin]

The Otaku has a poll up on it's website right now asking how Anime Fans think the American Anime Industry is doing

Do downloaders really care at all how the American middlemen companies are doing?  If the Japanese guests go to conventions and say explicitly that fansubs (as opposed to the Hong Kong pirates) are hurting them, then I think the downloaders are far more likely to listen.

Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it.

The problem is that the American companies don't bring much to the table.  They translate (which fansubbers are willing to do for free -- and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes), and they seem to pay lots of money for dub voices that the downloaders obviously don't care about anyways.  The economics won't work: what it comes down to is that the companies are trying to get downloaders to partly subsidize voices and recording equipment and production studios and mixing personnel and air time and what not, which the downloaders just don't care about at all.

If the American anime companies honestly believe that downloading is killing them, then it proves that they need to stop wasting money on dubbing and sell off the recording studios.  If dubbing anime is making enough of a difference that it's worthwhile for them to keep doing it, then downloaders logically can't be that big of a problem.

[Jun-Watarase]

Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it.

The problem is that the American companies don't bring much to the table.  They translate (which fansubbers are willing to do for free -- and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes), and they seem to pay lots of money for dub voices that the downloaders obviously don't care about anyways.  The economics won't work: what it comes down to is that the companies are trying to get downloaders to partly subsidize voices and recording equipment and production studios and mixing personnel and air time and what not, which the downloaders just don't care about at all.

If the American anime companies honestly believe that downloading is killing them, then it proves that they need to stop wasting money on dubbing and sell off the recording studios.  If dubbing anime is making enough of a difference that it's worthwhile for them to keep doing it, then downloaders logically can't be that big of a problem.

Oh please, speak for yourself!

Where are you getting this from? Do you realize that anime DVDs probably wouldn't sell at all if it weren't for dubs? The people who purchase the DVDs at all are either people who WANT the dubs, are curious of the series/dubbed version, or are people who have seen the series via subs and want to support their fandom and bring back merchandise for their collections. Even if there weren't subs, the industry probably wouldn't have done very well, anyway. Though, I don't think Western companies would do NEARLY as well if it weren't for the existence of subs, for reasons already stated in previous posts. However, pirating in any case, like downloading subbed episodes of anime, is still stealing, and there will always be that percentage of people who just download things without the intent of supporting what they're stealing in any way. It just isn't doing damage that significantly harms the industry.

What good would selling off the recording studios do? VAs enjoy their jobs, and not only that... DVDs would NOT sell without the dubs. DVDs would have nearly no value if they were just subs, and people downloading episodes off the internet probably wouldn't feel as guilty pirating... since all you're paying your money for is a sub you could already easily download from the internet, possibly in better quality. (And normal people that would supposedly be at least curious, would find it simply being subbed bothersome and low-value.) Besides, look at the latest generation of anime fans... Where are they coming from? They become fans by watching the DUBS aired on TV, and a good percentage of them have a preference for dubs rather than reading subtitles. A lot of fans appreciate the VAs, too. They're nearly famous and treated with respect, and are given a lot of attention in public appearances, and have been even nearly a decade ago. (According to a friend that had been in the con-scene at that time, American VAs always had the longest lines in comparison to other guests.)

Series like TMoHS (And people planning on buying Lucky Star) wouldn't have done as well as they did without the foundation of fans that have watched the subs, and will probably reach success in this fashion more often in the future. Series like Trinity Blood, Cowboy Bebop, NGE, Rurouni Kenshin, Inuyasha, etc probably wouldn't have done as well without the help of dubs. Hell, when I was a kid... the only reason why a lot of Americans became fans of anime were because of dubs of anime like Sailor Moon, Slayers, Ranma 1/2, Dragonball Z, Nuku Nuku, Devil Hunter Youko, and etc, because they were being made local and were giving people opportunity to discover them.

So, neither subs or spending money on dubs are the problems. It's the fact that... anime DVDs just don't sell as well as companies would like them to. Outside of the people who ARE interested in anime (which is the minority), who else would buy them? They're just cartoons to most people.

Though, the line I found really funny was...

...and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes.

Yeah, because... I TOTALLY prefer subs because of the spiffy karaoke subtitles!

[mDuo13]

Quick survey: about how many times do you guys think you've had this discussion?

I've been through it maybe 4 or so... usually I'm alert enough to realize before joining in how pointless it'd be.

Then again, apparently some of us have nothing better to do than give our opinions on any subject under the sun.

[PyronIkari]

Oh man, this is so poorly written that I had to reply.

Do downloaders really care at all how the American middlemen companies are doing?  If the Japanese guests go to conventions and say explicitly that fansubs (as opposed to the Hong Kong pirates) are hurting them, then I think the downloaders are far more likely to listen.

Uhm... no. You act like people will listen to someone just because they're a Japanese guest. They won't... And again you seem to not understand how fansubbing works and how the industry is influenced/affected by it.

The problem is that the American companies don't bring much to the table.  They translate (which fansubbers are willing to do for free -- and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes), and they seem to pay lots of money for dub voices that the downloaders obviously don't care about anyways.  The economics won't work: what it comes down to is that the companies are trying to get downloaders to partly subsidize voices and recording equipment and production studios and mixing personnel and air time and what not, which the downloaders just don't care about at all.

Oh man... the ignorance.

Fansubbers do HORRIBLE jobs translating. The ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY 2 reasons to download fansubs are...
1. it's faster than waiting for releases in the US
2. shows that don't get licensed.

You talk about economics, when you don't even understand economics, or business, or anything that's going on.

If the American anime companies honestly believe that downloading is killing them, then it proves that they need to stop wasting money on dubbing and sell off the recording studios.  If dubbing anime is making enough of a difference that it's worthwhile for them to keep doing it, then downloaders logically can't be that big of a problem.

LE SIGH...

The majority of sales for DVD's are from the general market. If someone is downloading fansubs, they are not the general market, and are a niche market. Your average person, does not know of or download shows that aren't already commercialized. Your average fan, prefers to watch dubs.

G'ah... this is why I hate hate hate hate when uninformed and ignorant people speak and shoot out their opinions like they have something to prove when they don't know anything, and are usually the people that don't read/listen to other people(AS I COVERED MOST OF THIS ALREADY!)

[Nyxyin]

The majority of sales for DVD's are from the general market. If someone is downloading fansubs, they are not the general market, and are a niche market. Your average person, does not know of or download shows that aren't already commercialized. Your average fan, prefers to watch dubs.

Yes.  And downloaded episodes don't have dubs, so downloaders (especially anime club downloads) cannot possibly be making a dent in the American anime industry.

I was presenting a logical dichotomy:  If dubs are important enough that the American anime industry needs to keep paying for them, then the downloads aren't hurting the American anime industry.  If downloads are hurting the American anime industry, then dub aren't important.  Right?

[PyronIkari]

WHAT A HORRIBLE FALACY.

Dubs are important, because that is a huge part of the market.

Now, can you tell me how many people download cartoons, and are hardcore fans? Let's take numbers that I am looking at right now based on tracker websites.

Bleach Episode 160... 32,000 people total seeding+leeching.

Now, tell me. How many of those people will buy the DVDs? And then tell me, how many of those people WOULD have bought the DVDs if they hadn't already seen it?

Regardless, it's pirating and against the law. A lot of people, DON'T watch dubs, even if there are more that do watch dubs. Why are you even posting here... seriously? Are you trying to prove to yourself, and justify to yourself that "downloading anime isn't bad"?

Dubs and Subbed series are not mutually exclusive you realize right? Not ALL people that buy the DVD's watch dubbed, nor do ALL people that buy the DVDs watch it in subs. You're presenting a horrible falacy.

I like watching most shows in their native language... therefore I can bootleg Shaolin Soccer, Kung-Fu Hustle, Hard Boiled, and the huge number of other Asian movies that come out in the states right? Because I don't care for the dub, and most people prefer it dubbed, means that me pirating a movie even though the DVD has a subbed version on it, is perfectly okay... right? Hollywood put in money to dub it, therefore they should only make money from people that want to watch the dubbed version, and I can pirate all I want to watch it in its original language.

Let's use imaginary numbers again to prove how utterly retarded what you said is.

Let's say 80% of people watch it dubbed, and 20% watch it subbed right?

let's say a DVD sells 1,000,000 copies, and gains a profit of 2$ per dvd sold.

800,000dubbed watchers make the company 1.6million dollars. YAY \o/

200,000 subbed watchers make the company 400,000 dollars... YAY \o/

But, instead of those 200,000 subbed watchers buying the DVD they just download it instead, because obviously downloads cannot hurt the company right? They make their money through dubs and dubs alone. That 400,000 is IMAGINARY RIGHT?!?!?!??! Because dubs exist. Therefore people downloading instead of buying the DVDs DOESN'T HURT THE INDUSTRY!

Because that's what you're saying.

You cannot justify pirating as being good, because it's illegal. Even if you explain everything in a legitimate way(like I already did) It still doesn't change that you are illegally pirating media, and it's literally stealing from a company. You are not entitled to media for free, therefore it in the literal sense is stealing.

Now monetarilly does it hurt a company, it is very easilly arguable in every which way, on whether or not it hurts, helps, does nothing... but NOT because "LOLOLOL DVD's have dubs and fansubs are only subbed without dubs". It's very easilly argued that more niche and non-mainstream series(Haruhi, Claymore) are helped by fansubs, while bigger juggernaut titles(Naruto, Bleach) are hurt by fansubs. Even then there's no real way to prove it because it's impossible to realistically gather the required data. So what do we look at... the morality and legallity of it.

Fansubbing is wrong to do because it's illegal and is stealing from a company. It's not justifiable any other way.

[Nyxyin]

Why are you even posting here... seriously? Are you trying to prove to yourself, and justify to yourself that "downloading anime isn't bad"?

*shrug*  I own several hundred, maybe over a thousand, anime DVDs.  I'm not the one downloading.  However, I do enjoy anime clubs that show unlicensed fansubs.  I'm questioning the original poster's stance against anime club use of unlicensed series.

Now, I don't have an opinion whether it's right or wrong.  I'm just backing up the idea that it isn't tangibly killing the American anime industry.

Let's say 80% of people watch it dubbed, and 20% watch it subbed right?

How many people who tolerate it dubbed would prefer to watch it subbed?  Outside of the big Cartoon Network series, how many of the people who actually pay for smaller, less popular titles want it subbed vs dubbed?  I don't think anybody knows.  I'm saying there are ways for the American anime industry to cut costs for bringing titles over.

Let's say 80% of people watch it dubbed, and 20% watch it subbed right?
let's say a DVD sells 1,000,000 copies, and gains a profit of 2$ per dvd sold.
800,000dubbed watchers make the company 1.6million dollars. YAY \o/
200,000 subbed watchers make the company 400,000 dollars... YAY \o/
But, instead of those 200,000 subbed watchers buying the DVD they just download it instead, because obviously downloads cannot hurt the company right? They make their money through dubs and dubs alone. That 400,000 is IMAGINARY RIGHT?!?!?!??!

No, but if getting rid of the dub studios means that they'll end up making $8/dvd instead of $2/dvd, then that'd be something.  Also, how many of the dubbed watchers are completely unwilling to buy sub-only DVDs?  And, I don't think it's a good assumption that watchers translate to buyers.  How many additional customers will they gain if they can drop their prices by not dubbing the DVDs?  Maybe it'd be enough to make up for any lost dub buyers.

Previously, the American anime companies could count on people paying huge prices for the few anime series that came over because they chose carefully and anime was rare.  However, they've licensed anime like crazy.  Anime is no longer rare, but they're still charging a higher price than American films.  For $20, I can have the whole story of latest American blockbuster with deleted scenes, commentary, and extras, but I need to pay $25 for the first five episodes of a 13 episode anime series, and I'm not even sure they'll even tell me what the opening and ending and on-screen text say.  If I get the blockbuster, I'll be able to talk to lots of people about it.  If I get the anime instead, I'm not even sure that other anime fans would've seen it.  They can't get out of being a niche that way.

You cannot justify pirating as being good, because it's illegal. Even if you explain everything in a legitimate way(like I already did) It still doesn't change that you are illegally pirating media, and it's literally stealing from a company. You are not entitled to media for free, therefore it in the literal sense is stealing.

Legally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

It's very easilly argued that more niche and non-mainstream series(Haruhi, Claymore) are helped by fansubs, while bigger juggernaut titles(Naruto, Bleach) are hurt by fansubs. Even then there's no real way to prove it because it's impossible to realistically gather the required data.

I agreed with you the first time you said that.

So what do we look at... the morality and legality of it.

Obviously, the lack of legality hasn't been stopping the downloaders.  It hasn't stopped anybody from speeding either.  Various cities even plan for speeding tickets to generate some amount of money, so even the goverment agrees that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing some things.

So, we're down to morality.  However, the morality question gets huge and very complicated because I question the morality of capitalism in general.  You see, a whole lot of people would love to sit around and draw anime and manga all day.  Some of them are actually very good at it.  But, they didn't get lucky in applying at the right time or to the right company, or they live in the wrong city and never got the opportunity to put their work in front of the right people, and they're stuck having to do something else to survive instead.  Is it moral that someone that isn't as good gets paid to draw anime and manga just because they got a lucky break?  I'm not in favor of socialism either: it seems like asking for trouble to assure that people will get resources without necessarily doing anything valuable.  The moral debate, as far as I can tell, just has no answer and no end, and I can't even begin to scratch the surface without writing a whole encyclopedia.

So, what do we do today?  Well, we plant seeds of ideas where we can, and we let other people toy with our seeds as we toy with theirs.  The original poster planted one seed, you planted another set of intertwining vines, everybody else who participated planted theirs, and I'm planting some of my own.  It'll be interesting to see what the plants look like years or decades from now.

[cortana]

Sorry, this all ended up inside a quotebox somehow. Quotes internal to the box are from Nyxyin. everything else is my text.

How many people who tolerate it dubbed would prefer to watch it subbed?  Outside of the big Cartoon Network series, how many of the people who actually pay for smaller, less popular titles want it subbed vs dubbed?  I don't think anybody knows.  I'm saying there are ways for the American anime industry to cut costs for bringing titles over.

Here's a tidbit that you might not consider. Anime in the US is not marketed to adults, generally. It's marketed to teenagers. Teenagers can't always read quite as fast as subtitles require. Therefore they identify and choose dubbed anime as preferable. Hell, I know a number of adults that can't read fast enough to keep up with subtitles.

The simple fact is, WITH ANIME, DUBS SELL THE PRODUCT. Be it in Japan or the US. You can't sell the anime without a matching dub. Also, the Japanese licensors often REQUIRE that the product be dubbed. Partly because they fear reverse-importation, and secondarily because they know it SELLS BETTER.

snip 20/80 comparison

No, but if getting rid of the dub studios means that they'll end up making $8/dvd instead of $2/dvd, then that'd be something.  Also, how many of the dubbed watchers are completely unwilling to buy sub-only DVDs?  And, I don't think it's a good assumption that watchers translate to buyers.  How many additional customers will they gain if they can drop their prices by not dubbing the DVDs?  Maybe it'd be enough to make up for any lost dub buyers.

They'd have to increase sales by a factor of 10 to be able to drop prices significantly. Considering they'd lose at least 50% of their market by failing to do a dub for a show, it would massively INCREASE prices.

For $20, I can have the whole story of latest American blockbuster with deleted scenes, commentary, and extras, but I need to pay $25 for the first five episodes of a 13 episode anime series, and I'm not even sure they'll even tell me what the opening and ending and on-screen text say.

The reason anime is more expensive is because of the economy of the market. You can't make a product massively cheaper until you're printing/selling a whole hell of a lot more of it. That's what feature films do, they sell generally a factor of 10 or greater MORE units than anime does. Ergo, it can be priced down because of lower total cost of manufacturing and distribution. Anime is produced by relatively small companies as a 'niche' product. ADV does its own distributing and does save money this way. They also distribute for Funimation as well, since the companies are geographically nearby and it works well for them. Other anime companies tend to distribute through things like comic book distributors and the like. They do what they have to do to get their product out. Each distribution link in the system takes its own bite out of the price, and you pay for that.

Legally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

Ah, the old and hoary internet fallacy! "IT'S NOT REALLY STEALING I DIDN'T TAKE NOTHING FROM THEM OK" Sorry. you have. You have appropriated something for yourself, and failed to pay the manufacturer for it. It can even easily be valued, and as such can be considered larceny. Stop trying to justify your own actions by rationalizing them into something that's not bad. Accept the fact that you steal. Try to make yourself better.

So, we're down to morality.  However, the morality question gets huge and very complicated because I question the morality of capitalism in general.  You see, a whole lot of people would love to sit around and draw anime and manga all day.  Some of them are actually very good at it.  But, they didn't get lucky in applying at the right time or to the right company, or they live in the wrong city and never got the opportunity to put their work in front of the right people, and they're stuck having to do something else to survive instead.

When you want to do a job, you do what it takes to get it. Whining about how "I DIDN'T LIVE IN THE RIGHT CITY!" or "I DIDN'T GET LUCKY!!" is bullshit. You make sacrifices to do what it takes to get where you have to be. This is why you find a hell of a lot of people in LA / Hollywood working low-end jobs to get by while they try to get their acting careers off the ground. If you have talent, you show it off. If other people (who matter, not just fans) think you do as well, then you'll be a success.

Ok. I'm done savaging the poster. Your turn Mikey.

[PyronIkari]

*shrug*  I own several hundred, maybe over a thousand, anime DVDs.  I'm not the one downloading.  However, I do enjoy anime clubs that show unlicensed fansubs.  I'm questioning the original poster's stance against anime club use of unlicensed series.

A thousand dollars worth of DVD's isn't much, I hope you realize that. First let's look at Japanese standards.

Your average JP anime DVD= 5900yen upwards to 7200yen and has 1-3 episodes.
Your average American anime DVD=15-20$ and has 3-5 episodes.

Let's take the low end of the scale. 15$ a DVD

1000$/15$=66DVDs x 5 episodes= 330 episodes of shows. Congratulations you have approximately all of Naruto and YuyuHakusho on DVD AND THAT'S IT. You understand now? That's all of 2 series. Let's take JP standards then and whos you what 1000$ in DVD's are.

Let's take low end again with 5900yen. According to today's ticker 5900yen is 54.80$.
Let's say ALL of them some how have 3 episodes each(HA).
1000$/54.80= 18.25 dvds.
18.25rounding to 19 19x3= 57 episodes, which is a 2 season/4 ku-r run. So that's at best, 2 short series or one semi-long series. That's not even all of Kimagure Orange Road, or even all of Slayers.

Now, I don't have an opinion whether it's right or wrong.  I'm just backing up the idea that it isn't tangibly killing the American anime industry.

Whether it is or isn't, you haven't proved a single thing about that at all, as everything youve said doesn't even apply.

How many people who tolerate it dubbed would prefer to watch it subbed?  Outside of the big Cartoon Network series, how many of the people who actually pay for smaller, less popular titles want it subbed vs dubbed?  I don't think anybody knows.  I'm saying there are ways for the American anime industry to cut costs for bringing titles over.

Most prefer it dubbed. The large majority prefers it dubbed. cortana already talked about how it's marketed towards teens, but you realize the majority of people don't like watching forum films that force them to read right? I'm guessing you don't know anything about the realities of the market, and only saying things based on you and your small circle of friends. This being completely oblivious to the real world and market out there.

No, but if getting rid of the dub studios means that they'll end up making $8/dvd instead of $2/dvd, then that'd be something.  Also, how many of the dubbed watchers are completely unwilling to buy sub-only DVDs?  And, I don't think it's a good assumption that watchers translate to buyers.  How many additional customers will they gain if they can drop their prices by not dubbing the DVDs?  Maybe it'd be enough to make up for any lost dub buyers.

Okay, let's say they make 8$ instead of 2$(which is so unrealistic it's not even funny). Let's use the numbers from before. They sell 200,000. x8

1.6million.

Now look at the previous numbers.

800,000x2
200,000x2
2million

THEY WOULD HAVE MADE MORE MONEY BEFORE. In addition to that, sales numbers would be so incredibly low, that mass-producing seems not as worth it, so it costs more per dvd to produce, lowering overall value and losing sponsorships, like from Cartoon Network, and other companies. Which means they lose even more money, making releasing the DVD's even hard to do at all.

So not only do they no longer have companies giving them money, it costs more per dvd to be made, their market is much smaller, so merchandising is lower, so they basically just screwed themselves in the ass if they "don't do dubs".

NOT TO MENTION that many companies force them to dub it for reasons cortana provided.

Previously, the American anime companies could count on people paying huge prices for the few anime series that came over because they chose carefully and anime was rare.  However, they've licensed anime like crazy.  Anime is no longer rare, but they're still charging a higher price than American films.  For $20, I can have the whole story of latest American blockbuster with deleted scenes, commentary, and extras, but I need to pay $25 for the first five episodes of a 13 episode anime series, and I'm not even sure they'll even tell me what the opening and ending and on-screen text say.  If I get the blockbuster, I'll be able to talk to lots of people about it.  If I get the anime instead, I'm not even sure that other anime fans would've seen it.  They can't get out of being a niche that way.

I'm guessing you aren't very old and didn't live through fansubbing of the early 90's and purchasing of VHS tapes.

Firstly, it seems you don't know how/where to shop for dvds. I can get almost any anime DVD for 21.99 or lower. You realize the quality of subtitles for licensed series, are usually about 10x greater than that of fansubs right? Fansubs are usually horrible in translation. And frankly, I can't stand retarded karaoke lyric style text in op/ed. I want to see the animations and the op as intended... not half of the screen covered in multi colored text with bouncing balls and text flying every which way. Besides it being unprofessional, it makes seeing difficult.

Now look at my numbers from before. Media isn't cheap. But just to do more math math math.

Your average blockbuster is 1hour 40minutes long. +20minutes of features.
Your average anime DVD is 2hours long, + random features.

The prices are justified... and you should be glad you don't have to pay Japanese prices.

Legally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

So you think you're a lawyer now too? Sorry, you're wrong, see cortana's post.

[

Obviously, the lack of legality hasn't been stopping the downloaders.  It hasn't stopped anybody from speeding either.  Various cities even plan for speeding tickets to generate some amount of money, so even the goverment agrees that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing some things.

Obviously... but that's where it stands. It's wrong to do. Murder is illegal, and people still commit murder, doesn't make commiting murder right.

So, we're down to morality.  However, the morality question gets huge and very complicated because I question the morality of capitalism in general.  You see, a whole lot of people would love to sit around and draw anime and manga all day.  Some of them are actually very good at it.  But, they didn't get lucky in applying at the right time or to the right company, or they live in the wrong city and never got the opportunity to put their work in front of the right people, and they're stuck having to do something else to survive instead.  Is it moral that someone that isn't as good gets paid to draw anime and manga just because they got a lucky break?  I'm not in favor of socialism either: it seems like asking for trouble to assure that people will get resources without necessarily doing anything valuable.  The moral debate, as far as I can tell, just has no answer and no end, and I can't even begin to scratch the surface without writing a whole encyclopedia.

Oh boo hoo cry me a river. Besides this having jack nothing to do with this subject at all, people do what they can. There's amazingly talented people that don't put in enough effort, and aren't lucky enough to be spotted, that's too bad, but that's how life is. If you don't get noticed, you can't get popular. If you're not getting noticed, you're not pushing hard enough, or you're not talented enough.

So, what do we do today?  Well, we plant seeds of ideas where we can, and we let other people toy with our seeds as we toy with theirs.  The original poster planted one seed, you planted another set of intertwining vines, everybody else who participated planted theirs, and I'm planting some of my own.  It'll be interesting to see what the plants look like years or decades from now.

The original poster didn't plant a seed, they took a crap on the floor and called it a rose. I told him, his crap, was crap. Then you took another crap on the floor. Then I wrote down how things really are in reflection to that crap.