Fans are ignored?

[Long]

FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE-

We all know everyone has a thought on glomping.
We don't care.

So as much as you can talk about how to solve these problem and compare opinions , but it wont do anything at Con.

I just read this, and I just went, o___O!

I'm sorry, but does anyone agree with me, that this is (hopefully) untrue. If I'm not mistaken, Fanime's trademark line is "For the Fans, and By the Fans." If the fans have no say in solutions, then it's either false advertising, or just plain corruption.

I think the best way to do things is to discuss solutions, and the staff should always look to the fans for input rather than denying them any say in the matter. There are of course those who wish to gain brownie points with certain staff and promote the dissolution of any discussion, but I urge those people to actually think about if what they're doing helps the good of the con, or is just ass-kissing.

[Stormfalcon]

This:

Glomping and signs are a LEGAL ISSUE. With legal issues, we can't change anything.

And another thread to be locked.

Seriously, we need an official announcement made, locked, and stickied so that there'd be no more questions or debate on the topic.

[Moonblossom]

By the fans, for the fans does not mean "We can break the law cause OMG it's teh funz"

That happens too often = no more Fanime. How would the fans feel about that?

[Long]

By the fans, for the fans does not mean "We can break the law cause OMG it's teh funz"

That happens too often = no more Fanime. How would the fans feel about that?

Whoever said we were breaking the law. We were discussing solutions on how to fix the issue at hand.

We came up with informing people about the etiquette of glomping and signs both through fliers in the regular con handouts and through the television screens. What we should NOT do is ignore it, or else the glomping and sign issue will grow to be much more sinister, and end up in serious legal action or injury.

[Long]

Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.

Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.

I believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.

[Jun-Watarase]

In terms of the whole glomping issue, and the staff supposedly not caring... is half true, for most. They don't care about the issue as to actually address it now, but the reason behind that is because in comparison to what they already have to do, it isn't important. Fanime staff already has a lot on their plate, and most of them are organized plans and procedures that actually need to get done to set up the con properly. But don't think I'm putting words into their mouthes; Fanime staff does care about the fans, but first they have to provide the fans with an adequate FanimeCon, before even considering to address every single issue, in this case, is smaller and inane in comparison to what they have to do as is.

The glomping issue isn't an organized concern that has any plan or discussion behind it, since... despite it being an actual problem, there honestly isn't much for staff to be able to realistically do. It's something that should be gradually changed by the people. Again, we've discussed how it SHOULD be common sense, and Fanime shouldn't even need to spend time and money to maintain it... so technically, it's our responsibility, and not theirs. It would help if they did, but ultimately, it's up to the people to actually listen. We could spread by word of mouth, reminding people to be polite and considerate, and promote some common sense. Eventually the trend of "glomping strangers ain't cool" will happen. Staff isn't here to baby us and teach us how to act in society. It'd just be convenient if we had some support in solving our own problems, but only if possible.

Not only that, but... there's already a rule against glomping. It's called law.

But I can at least say that a chunk that they're at least annoyed by it. Don't think of Lady Karen's post and locking the thread as "Us staffers don't give a damn about ur FanimeCon." She just felt that the discussion on the thread was stubborn and perpetually going in the same loop... and it was. You know all those things I've said to you? Yeah. I've repeated it like.... 20x, in all the glomp/glomp sign threads on this forum.

A'yup. :V

[Tony]

Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.

Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.

Thanks! But it wouldn't be arbitrary. To address your OP, we are indeed listening, but we are grounded in law; depending on your view, we are either enabled or restricted by that fact. Ultimately we have to make a decision, and of course those who are opposed to it will feel that they have been ignored. That's almost never the case; there are almost always other, bigger circumstances at play. This is one of them.

I believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.

Yes and no.

(Excuse me as I talk in metaphor here. I hate doing that, but it's a shortcut.)

There's the black and white part of the issue, and then there is the gray area.

The black-and-white portion is fully a legal issue. If you touch someone without their permission, you open yourself up to legal action by that person; if you go around with a "will have sex for money" sign, you open yourself up to legal action. That's it, end of story.

What you're talking about is the gray area, which is fully up to Fanime to enforce (or not) through the use of our member policies. After all, as a private event, we can mandate all sorts of crazy things to be a part of our convention.

[Personal opinion]
So, let's agree that the only issue in the gray are the signs. (Unwanted glomping is simply in the black, and consensual glomping is no one's business, simply in the white, and so is also a non-issue.) Again, the signs fall into black, white, and gray areas. Solicitation laws prevent the clearly black signs, so the only thing left are the white and the gray. I would put signs that are part of a cosplay (ex: Genma as panda) or are signage ("Bleach gathering here") in the white. The rest I would consider gray.

For signs that fall in the gray area, it's easier to disallow these on a subjective/case-by-case basis than to write out a precise policy and enforce it. It ends up being contradictory on some level anyway, and is overall just a waste of time.

What I'm saying is, we're pretty much covered already. If you want a policy, I would put it like this:
- Don't do anything illegal. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out. And arrested and/or sued.
- Don't do anything stupid. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out.
- We can kick you out for anything. Don't be surprised if you get kicked out.  ;D

But don't be discouraged. We like our members. We don't kick people out lightly.
[/personal opinion]

Just my opinion.

[Long]

Regardless of what a member may think is right or wrong, it's truthfully just a matter of what we will permit and what we will not - and you'll hear about those things from official sources on the website, on the forums from the people responsible for those policies, or in the program guide.

Though I think Tony is awesome (he's head of MusicFest, how can he not be?), I think that arbitrarily imposing strict rules on these matters is wrong.

Thanks! But it wouldn't be arbitrary. To address your OP, we are indeed listening, but we are grounded in law; depending on your view, we are either enabled or restricted by that fact. Ultimately we have to make a decision, and of course those who are opposed to it will feel that they have been ignored. That's almost never the case; there are almost always other, bigger circumstances at play. This is one of them.

I believe that it is not fully a legal matter. It all depends on the context, and we need a solution that will fit our con's personality.

Yes and no.

(Excuse me as I talk in metaphor here. I hate doing that, but it's a shortcut.)

There's the black and white part of the issue, and then there is the gray area.

The black-and-white portion is fully a legal issue. If you touch someone without their permission, you open yourself up to legal action by that person; if you go around with a "will have sex for money" sign, you open yourself up to legal action. That's it, end of story.

What you're talking about is the gray area, which is fully up to Fanime to enforce (or not) through the use of our member policies. After all, as a private event, we can mandate all sorts of crazy things to be a part of our convention.

[Personal opinion]
So, let's agree that the only issue in the gray are the signs. (Unwanted glomping is simply in the black, and consensual glomping is no one's business, simply in the white, and so is also a non-issue.) Again, the signs fall into black, white, and gray areas. Solicitation laws prevent the clearly black signs, so the only thing left are the white and the gray. I would put signs that are part of a cosplay (ex: Genma as panda) or are signage ("Bleach gathering here") in the white. The rest I would consider gray.

For signs that fall in the gray area, it's easier to disallow these on a subjective/case-by-case basis than to write out a precise policy and enforce it. It ends up being contradictory on some level anyway, and is overall just a waste of time.

What I'm saying is, we're pretty much covered already. If you want a policy, I would put it like this:
- Don't do anything illegal. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out. And arrested and/or sued.
- Don't do anything stupid. If you do, don't be surprised if you get kicked out.
- We can kick you out for anything. Don't be surprised if you get kicked out.  ;D

But don't be discouraged. We like our members. We don't kick people out lightly.
[/personal opinion]

Just my opinion.

That makes sense. It's the first clear thing I've heard about all this since it started. xD

What I was worried about was a mass ban on glomps and I wanted to make sure that wouldn't happen. Concensual glomping, as stated is no one's business, and I hope rules don't come into play either now or later that would impose upon that action. I'm satisfied. =B

[Moonblossom]

I don't think anyone was ever suggesting a con-wide ban on physical contact. Just a reminder to lay off, ask first if it's someone you don't know, and a reminder that you can report things if they make you uncomfortable or hurt you.

[Long]

I don't think anyone was ever suggesting a con-wide ban on physical contact. Just a reminder to lay off, ask first if it's someone you don't know, and a reminder that you can report things if they make you uncomfortable or hurt you.

I know no one was suggesting a con-wide ban on physical contact. My worry was that even if there was no ban, it could possibly escalate. For instance, if nothing is done about non-consensual glomping this year, and one or more people got injured and the con got sued, or something like that, in a rash bit of action, there might be those that impose such things like a con-wide ban on glomping. I just want to do all we could before it turns into something more sinister.

[Tony]

That makes sense. It's the first clear thing I've heard about all this since it started. xD

What I was worried about was a mass ban on glomps and I wanted to make sure that wouldn't happen. Concensual glomping, as stated is no one's business, and I hope rules don't come into play either now or later that would impose upon that action. I'm satisfied. =B

Hell, I'm just glad you read any of that rambling!

[Stormfalcon]

Tony, if the personal opinion you presented was official policy, or at least reasonably close to it, I can live with that as well.  As long as we get these matters under control before some of us have to take matters into our own hands, that's all that matters.

[LadyKaren]

FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE-

We all know everyone has a thought on glomping.
We don't care.

So as much as you can talk about how to solve these problem and compare opinions , but it wont do anything at Con.

I just read this, and I just went, o___O!

I'm sorry, but does anyone agree with me, that this is (hopefully) untrue. If I'm not mistaken, Fanime's trademark line is "For the Fans, and By the Fans." If the fans have no say in solutions, then it's either false advertising, or just plain corruption.

I think the best way to do things is to discuss solutions, and the staff should always look to the fans for input rather than denying them any say in the matter. There are of course those who wish to gain brownie points with certain staff and promote the dissolution of any discussion, but I urge those people to actually think about if what they're doing helps the good of the con, or is just ass-kissing.

Like it's been said before, there's no compromise on this issue since it's a legal matter, and as much as you can talk about how to find solutions, you're making more problems.

I'm not being mean here and saying we don't care, but when I get over 7 emails and PM's about people's feelings getting hurt regarding this issues and this shouldn't even be an issue, I need to get involved.

Now, like Tony said, we will announce this officially either on the site or elsewhere, but till then, please drop the issue or talk about it in the byob. You're scaring off the noobs.

[OniCourseMusha]

I kind of feel how annoyed hearing about people rants and rambling about the issues and debates is for months.  I feel ya, Lady Karen.  Debates is like reading a very very bad argument paper.

[luckyends]

if this is un called for or just kinda weird in this thread im sorry

but one of the reasons i have posted in these things and posted things debating the glomp and signs is just because there were several times when the thing was just brutatly atacked out in the open people posting threads that are so violently aposed its distressing so i think alot of people might be reacting to that like i did because its hard when a person just posts thing taht are untrue like i read several threads about signs being banned when they wernt and then a few threads about how bad glomping is but i agree with tony in the black white and grey areas

sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off

[Long]

FOR THE LAST TIME PEOPLE-

We all know everyone has a thought on glomping.
We don't care.

So as much as you can talk about how to solve these problem and compare opinions , but it wont do anything at Con.

I just read this, and I just went, o___O!

I'm sorry, but does anyone agree with me, that this is (hopefully) untrue. If I'm not mistaken, Fanime's trademark line is "For the Fans, and By the Fans." If the fans have no say in solutions, then it's either false advertising, or just plain corruption.

I think the best way to do things is to discuss solutions, and the staff should always look to the fans for input rather than denying them any say in the matter. There are of course those who wish to gain brownie points with certain staff and promote the dissolution of any discussion, but I urge those people to actually think about if what they're doing helps the good of the con, or is just ass-kissing.

Like it's been said before, there's no compromise on this issue since it's a legal matter, and as much as you can talk about how to find solutions, you're making more problems.

I'm not being mean here and saying we don't care, but when I get over 7 emails and PM's about people's feelings getting hurt regarding this issues and this shouldn't even be an issue, I need to get involved.

Now, like Tony said, we will announce this officially either on the site or elsewhere, but till then, please drop the issue or talk about it in the byob. You're scaring off the noobs.

If there's a thread that has been solely used for debating and discussing and you don't want it in the General Discussion, can we please move them to the byob instead of locking them? That way, those who want to continue discussing it, can discuss it. And for those who don't want to deal with it, don't have to go into that thread if they don't wish.

[Jun-Watarase]

if this is un called for or just kinda weird in this thread im sorry

but one of the reasons i have posted in these things and posted things debating the glomp and signs is just because there were several times when the thing was just brutatly atacked out in the open people posting threads that are so violently aposed its distressing so i think alot of people might be reacting to that like i did because its hard when a person just posts thing taht are untrue like i read several threads about signs being banned when they wernt and then a few threads about how bad glomping is but i agree with tony in the black white and grey areas

sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off

Wha? I had trouble reading this; most of your posts are pretty unclear.

But anyway, I think people are just defending the freedom to get away with things like being able to run up and hug strangers, wear signs that tell others to show them affection and gain the attention of strangers, being able to act ridiculously stupid to verify to themselves that they're "unique" and etc... and it's distressing because now, people have a problem with some of those issues and actually responded to them by telling them that it's actually wrong and destructive to many people who don't want to become casualties to these sorts of things. They're afraid of this sort of change at FanimeCon, and the way I see it, people there only act so freely because they already feel derailed from normal society, so they feel the freedom to abandon standard social guidelines and common courtesy in terms of respect for personal space-- that, or they're in a perpetual competition for attention...

But anyway, the thread on signs is a bit iffy. Several staff members we had talked to told us that signs ARE banned, many said they didn't know, and others said they weren't. So the thread wasn't made off a blatant lie, it was just a huge misunderstanding. In any case, the problems still exist whether or not anything is enforced, and it's the responsibility of the people to actually make any sort of positive change.

[PyronIkari]

If there's a thread that has been solely used for debating and discussing and you don't want it in the General Discussion, can we please move them to the byob instead of locking them? That way, those who want to continue discussing it, can discuss it. And for those who don't want to deal with it, don't have to go into that thread if they don't wish.

The irony of it is, if you think about it. They're DISCOURAGING discussion. Anything that contains thought or opinions is banned on this forum outside of /b/ because people *GASP* get offended at opinions. I don't get why people can't share their opinions and views on something, and why someone else can't share their opinions and views on that persons opinions and views. It's not like we're talking about freedoms such as religion and politics, but things that actually apply and we have to go through at the convention.

[OniCourseMusha]

sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off

I don't mind.  This is how I felt (sorry about for the long post)

The glomp/sign issue is like people trying to banned drinking in general.  Drinking makes the person drunk and do crazy/reckless things.  So that means there will be a list of bad thing about drinking.  There are many people will agree and disagree strongly and in the between.  What happens?  Debates happens.  Did that solve anything.  I felt like it resolved nothing and the government did not do sh*t. and you can't do anything about it.  All we have is drink responsibly.

I feel like glomping/sign issue are the same: Glomping hurts people if they're not careful, signs may the sign of attention.  We now have a list of bad things about those things.  There are many people agree and disagree strongly and in the between.  What happen here?  Debates happens here and causing some stupid drama and misunderstanding.  Will that solve anything?  I don't know cuz it depends on the fanime officials tells us.  So if nothing has changed.  Then i think glomp/sign responsibly.

U wanna know wat else it reminds me when I see issues like this? Jack Thompsom trying to ban violent video games.  I really can't stand him period.

[Jun-Watarase]

sorry if this is just kinda anoying >_< hope i dont piss people off

I don't mind.  This is how I felt (sorry about for the long post)

The glomp/sign issue is like people trying to banned drinking in general.  Drinking makes the person drunk and do crazy/reckless things.  So that means there will be a list of bad thing about drinking.  There are many people will agree and disagree strongly and in the between.  What happens?  Debates happens.  Did that solve anything.  I felt like it resolved nothing and the government did not do sh*t. and you can't do anything about it.  All we have is drink responsibly.

Wait wait... what?! I'm GENUINELY confused. How does that even compare?!

EDIT:

Same goes for... this.

U wanna know wat else it reminds me when I see issues like this? Jack Thompsom trying to ban violent video games.  I really can't stand him period.

Er, glomping actually causes physical harm and trauma to people, directly. In cases like Jack Thompson, that's just him blaming violence between kids and teens on playing videogames, and supposedly being influenced by them. He makes poor assumptions and puts the blame on them for absolutely no reason. People trying to ban glomping is just defending their rights to personal space and safety from physical harm!

Where do statements like these come from!?