FanimeCon 2026 Forums

The State of the Industry

The following was written by a convention owner. Please forward it to ALL fans of Anime.

The Otaku has a poll up on it's website right now asking how Anime Fans think the American Anime Industry is doing; the status of business. This immediately follows a report by the Anime News Network stating that anime DVD sales are down 20% for 2007. The overwhelming response to theOtaku's poll is the industry is just fine.

I am honestly surprised at how little otaku know about what is going on in the industry.

The Anime Industry.. not just in the US, is dying. There is a Japanese company doing Lucky Charms commercials to pay their bills. FUNimation is hurting but should make it after major surgery. ADV... I just hope we are not attending ADV's wake this fall.

Anime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry. Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it. One Thousand DVDs sold is a hit with anime. Fifty Thousand downloads of the same anime cost the Industry millions, and Fans pay by getting higher prices, and fewer anime choices.

Why have I brought this up? As I said, the industry is dying, and we - the fans - are holding the knife. It is time we stepped up and fixed the problem. The Illegal downloading has got to STOP. Don't assume that because you pay, it is ok. Many sites have stolen the anime they are distributing. FUNimation has anime available on ITunes. ADV has anime available for viewing on their website. Other anime companies also have options available.

Anime Clubs: Please, stop showing illegally downloaded anime. You are are first line of defense.

Anime Cons: Most cons have already joined the fight. Illegal anime is not shown in many viewing rooms. This is a good start. Now we need to get it out of the Dealer's Rooms and Artists Alleys. If you have a hard time distinguishing what is legitimate and what is bootlegged /Stolen, contact the studios. They have people trained in exactly this. You may get an extra guest out of it. At the very least, you will get the appreciation of an industry we all love.

I realize I am just one person. I cannot do this alone. The Industry cannot survive unless all fans join together. I suggest to ALL anime fans, if Greg Ayres is going to your local con, request (and attend) his Bootleg Panel. Some cons are starting to host "State of the Industry"... this is another great one to attend. Anime fans need to stay informed.


Joshua Andrade
Board of Directors, Atsuicon

We are the only ones to blame when Anime is no more.

The Otaku
www.theotaku.com
http://theotaku.com/news/view/oop:_does_this_count_as_big_business?/3454/

Anime News Network
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-02-13/icv2-north-american-anime-dvds-were-down-20-percent+in-2007

Quote from: DJ Laen on February 13, 2008, 09:44:58 PM
Anime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry...

I stopped reading right here. The notice lost all credibility when it starts blaming what created new opportunity a few years at its first appearance for many licensees. The reason for a lack of sales is not the fact people download more than what is purchased; it's the rampant licensing train that causes A) a delay in releases for shows that are no longer "in season" thus everyone has watched/obtained all, B) Too many titles to organize, too many royalties to buy, not enough compensation.

Anime is one of the biggest markets in Japan right now, and responsible for trillions of yen currently in their market. Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

~Chun

You make it sound like the convention owner is someone else, by the by.

in before the flamewar
I personally spend a fair amount on anime - not necessarily on DVDs, but on merchandise, and I still purchase disks when I really like a series. But if the anime industry in the US is seeing sales problems, they should consider all the causes. For one thing, anime competes directly with games for sales - and 2007 was a great year for video games. For another, anime comes out so sporadically that it's hard to follow - one DVD every month does not realistically equate to one episode per week, so it's a feast-or-famine business model that doesn't encourage serial purchases.

My personal dogma also skews towards dub-less releases for most if not all titles, and I think an iTunes-esque pay-per-download model for high-quality, quick sub releases, supplemented by a subscription model of some sort, would really encourage a lot more purchasing, especially if the first episodes of things were free (so as to allow "shopping around" and to draw interest). Amazon has a promising service for per-episode downloadable anime, but no titles of great interest to me are on there yet - it's missing the key component, which is speed. I think one week after the episode airs is a very reasonable compromise between allowing for quality work and keeping up with the trends in Japan - if I could get a professional subs of a series I liked at that pace, I think that'd be the most appealing method for me.

Then again, I know there are a lot of people who really appreciate the hardware of a DVD release, and there are plenty of people who really appreciate the dubs... but I think that, as far as the American anime market goes, that would be more of a secondary point of sale, sort of like selling DVDs of TV shows that air on domestic TV.

In short, even though I'm more or less against rampant freeloading and bootlegging of anime (downloading fansubs is OK if you still spend some money on anime merch), I think that it's up to the industry to change first and the consumers to modify their habits when reasonable alternatives are possible.

Wow, this is filled with incorrect info all around. Both by those who are saying not to, and those that are saying the Anime industry is booming.

Just because the anime industry is everywhere, doesn't mean that the funds are everywhere as well. G'ah, work, gotta go. Anyways, if I remember I'll post back later.

Fansubs do hurt the industry, but not on that huge of a level, it's quite minor. The state in Japan...

Why do people make assumptions about the state in Japan when people don't know a thing?

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 14, 2008, 08:07:15 AM
Why do people make assumptions about the state in Japan when people don't know a thing?

Because they probably read it on Wikipedia, misread it and put it on here.

Quote from: Chun on February 13, 2008, 10:38:41 PM
Anime is one of the biggest markets in Japan right now, and responsible for trillions of yen currently in their market. Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

... really? Tens of billions USD?  ???

I should point out that the notice was about video sales.

I would say video is much more critical in the US than other segments of the anime industry. If the video market collapses, it could take a lot down with it; dubs suffer, the networks suffer, then the whole industry suffers.

On the other hand, the manga market is getting stronger and will help to sustain merchandising and other revenues.

But back to the notice. It's a mistake to try to force the market to act in certain ways. mDuo13 put it well: yes, it's important to discourage illegal downloads, but the industry needs to be mostly reactive to the market. For example, I like mDuo13's idea iTunes-like model for sub releases; compared to fansubs, there's the promise of reliability, quality, speed, and legality. It barely competes against "free", but it's much, much better than complaining to the market that the current model isn't working.

Yay back home from work. Let's make a long post that no one will read, and a lot of people will misinterperet.

Quote
I am honestly surprised at how little otaku know about what is going on in the industry.

Irony, because the person writing this doesn't know what's going on in the industry.

QuoteThe Anime Industry.. not just in the US, is dying. There is a Japanese company doing Lucky Charms commercials to pay their bills. FUNimation is hurting but should make it after major surgery. ADV... I just hope we are not attending ADV's wake this fall.

Most companies do lots of things, not just release cartoon series. Commercials, ads, things for different shows, and lots of other things. You act like doing advertisements for other companies is a horrible bad thing. Think about this for a second...

An animation company... is doing animation work. Yeah, such a sad state isn't it.

QuoteAnime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry. Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it. One Thousand DVDs sold is a hit with anime. Fifty Thousand downloads of the same anime cost the Industry millions, and Fans pay by getting higher prices, and fewer anime choices.

This is not how the market works. Okay, yes, fansubs can, and do deter people from buying the series, as they've already seen it. However, at the same time it causes advertisement, and hype for the series. So now we have to look at it from a marketing perspective.

Let's even use your numbers(no, 1,000 dvds sold is not a hit). Fifty thousand downloads. First we know that all fifth thousand of those people were not going to buy the dvd to begin with. So that number is meaningless. You'd have to examine the number of people that WOULD HAVE bought the DVD had they not been able to download it in the first place, and compare this to the amount of people that NOW WILL buy the dvd because they know about the series. Things that factor in. People that have watched the fansubs, and because of it, want to buy the DVDs. Now, factor in how many of these people would have bought the DVD regardless and subtract those.

Then there's the people that don't watch fansubs, but because of hype from other people, and hearing about series, they watch said series because their friends tell them, and because it's popular on the web.

Of course, no one has the real numbers, and it's impossible to speculate and prove whether or not fansubs as a whole hurt the industry, or help... you can only look at it on the legal and invidual level.

You state "fewer choices" which is bull. You realize 80% of what is released in the US would never have made it out here, had it not been for fansubs. The DVD sales for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu(The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) wouldn't have sold nearly as many had it not been for the fansub hype, and the cultural phenomenon that arose because of it. Series like Rozen Maiden, would not come to the states had it not been for fansubbed. Here's how marketing works. People look at a product and say "will it sell to the average consumer". You realize, that hardcore anime fans, are not the average consumer. For every person that downloads series like... Akagi, there are 100 that have never heard of Akagi, and think Bleach, Full Metal Alchemist, and the rest of the Adult Swim line up is all there is to JP cartoons. Fansubs are what got companies to license the majority of series out there now, and the majority of comics that are out.

The music industry was BARELY affected by illegal downloads. Do real research before stupid statements like this are made.

Quote
Why have I brought this up? As I said, the industry is dying, and we - the fans - are holding the knife. It is time we stepped up and fixed the problem. The Illegal downloading has got to STOP. Don't assume that because you pay, it is ok. Many sites have stolen the anime they are distributing. FUNimation has anime available on ITunes. ADV has anime available for viewing on their website. Other anime companies also have options available.

Anime Clubs: Please, stop showing illegally downloaded anime. You are are first line of defense.

Anime Cons: Most cons have already joined the fight. Illegal anime is not shown in many viewing rooms. This is a good start. Now we need to get it out of the Dealer's Rooms and Artists Alleys. If you have a hard time distinguishing what is legitimate and what is bootlegged /Stolen, contact the studios. They have people trained in exactly this. You may get an extra guest out of it. At the very least, you will get the appreciation of an industry we all love.

I realize I am just one person. I cannot do this alone. The Industry cannot survive unless all fans join together. I suggest to ALL anime fans, if Greg Ayres is going to your local con, request (and attend) his Bootleg Panel. Some cons are starting to host "State of the Industry"... this is another great one to attend. Anime fans need to stay informed.

I have a question. What about imports? You realize the majority of JP culture strives off fanmade things right? They have conventions based around fan products and creations(Hint... Comiket is about fanmade products and only a small part of it is official stuff). What are we speaking about of "illegal downloads". Are we comparing someone downloading a DVD rip of the US release of the Bleach DVD, with someone downloading an episode of Angel Heart? Is it okay to show something like Angel Heart? It's just as illegal as that Bleach DVD, only it's international law that's being broken, and not really hurting any American companies. Is it wrong?

Realistically yes it is... but we don't see the results of it, and frankly, it's minor, even though it's wrong.

Artists alley... oh god. You're saying cons should crack down on fanart? Great, let's kill everything about fandom that'll help the industry... -_-

QuoteAnime is one of the biggest markets in Japan right now, and responsible for trillions of yen currently in their market. Nowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

And you're wrong here Chun. Trillions? No.

Japan's GDP=4.22trillion yen
Animation = 241.5 Billion

4.22trillion\241.5billion

Is 5.7%. Not exactly one of their biggest industries. Sure, it's not failing, but it's not super gigantic, OMG if JAPAN DOESN'T HAVE ANIMATION THEY DIES!

mDuo brings up a decent point about merchandise. But there's a lot of numbers that go into that to allocate whether or not it helps the industry and how much. Strangely... I don't know anyone that works in the merchandise industry outside of the merchandise that is made straight from the company... I need to make a new friend.

Knowledge is nice, knowing about what the hell you're talking about before you say it is how things happen for the better. Spouting out crap that doesn't apply but sorta makes sense due to lack of information and the such can CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS THAN THEY DO HELP.

Bottomline: downloads are illegal, and you shouldn't do it. Whether or not they hurt the industry or not isn't explained so simply and each show/episode has to be looked at individually and the statistics are impossible to get to prove it either way.

Quote from: mDuo13 on February 14, 2008, 01:34:58 AMI know there are a lot of people who really appreciate the hardware of a DVD release

That'd be me.  I like physical DVDs.  I love box sets and thinpaks even better.  The problem is that companies seem to release the individual DVDs first (taking their time doing it), and by the time they release the full set, the series is really old and everybody else has already seen it, so there's nobody left to talk to when I get around to it.  I would probably buy significantly more DVDs if my otaku friends were still interested in the series when the full sets get released in R1.  I think it is probably partly because they spend too much time on the dubs, partly because they grab too many titles at once, and partly because a lot of people are too impatient and watch within days of an episode coming out in Japan.  I own many hundreds (probably over a thousand by now -- it's difficult to count exact number of DVDs since my stuff is all in sets...) of anime DVDs, and I still can't find anything to show if I wanted an anime night with because my friends are either not fans of anime or they have already seen everything and have lost interest by the time the full sets get released.

I'd be very curious how many people actually buy the individual DVDs as they come out vs waiting for the full set.  An individual anime DVD normally costs 25% more than a blockbuster movie DVD, and the blockbuster movie DVDs are often sold with an extras disk.  I don't understand how people can afford to buy anime at such a high price.

Maybe having the downloadable low-cost ep strategy plus a physical full set would get the best of both worlds.

whoaaa I totally screwed up in my last post.
4.22trillion dollars US(Japan's GDP)
2.026billion dollars US(Japan's market via anime)

2.026billion/4.22trillion
.0004% of Japan's market.

I totally read the thing wrong and wrote yen instead of dollars.

I agree that fan subs are a problem because there is a huge group of people that only watch fan-subs and NEVER buy anything. However, there are people like me, who do buy DVDs but are unwilling to do so without seeing part of a show first. I'm not going to buy things blindly. The industry can do a better job of

a) getting shows out faster
b) putting sub only episodes online for download 
c) releasing more shows in box set only (with or without dubs depending on the popularity of the show)
d) putting up a few episodes (say 1-3) online for free to let people preview the show before buying

There are very few shows that I am willing to buy disc to disc, and those are usually ones that I have seen before through fan-subs and really, really enjoy. Otherwise, I'm willing to rent from Netflix or wait for a box set which saves money and room. I do try and buy as many shows that I liked as I can because I want to support the industry. While I enjoy fan-subs, I could live without them.

Quote from: DJ Laen on February 13, 2008, 09:44:58 PMThe Otaku has a poll up on it's website right now asking how Anime Fans think the American Anime Industry is doing

Do downloaders really care at all how the American middlemen companies are doing?  If the Japanese guests go to conventions and say explicitly that fansubs (as opposed to the Hong Kong pirates) are hurting them, then I think the downloaders are far more likely to listen.

Quote from: DJ Laen on February 13, 2008, 09:44:58 PMPrices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it.

The problem is that the American companies don't bring much to the table.  They translate (which fansubbers are willing to do for free -- and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes), and they seem to pay lots of money for dub voices that the downloaders obviously don't care about anyways.  The economics won't work: what it comes down to is that the companies are trying to get downloaders to partly subsidize voices and recording equipment and production studios and mixing personnel and air time and what not, which the downloaders just don't care about at all.

If the American anime companies honestly believe that downloading is killing them, then it proves that they need to stop wasting money on dubbing and sell off the recording studios.  If dubbing anime is making enough of a difference that it's worthwhile for them to keep doing it, then downloaders logically can't be that big of a problem.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 15, 2008, 05:25:08 PM

Quote from: DJ Laen on February 13, 2008, 09:44:58 PMPrices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it.

The problem is that the American companies don't bring much to the table.  They translate (which fansubbers are willing to do for free -- and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes), and they seem to pay lots of money for dub voices that the downloaders obviously don't care about anyways.  The economics won't work: what it comes down to is that the companies are trying to get downloaders to partly subsidize voices and recording equipment and production studios and mixing personnel and air time and what not, which the downloaders just don't care about at all.

If the American anime companies honestly believe that downloading is killing them, then it proves that they need to stop wasting money on dubbing and sell off the recording studios.  If dubbing anime is making enough of a difference that it's worthwhile for them to keep doing it, then downloaders logically can't be that big of a problem.

Oh please, speak for yourself!

Where are you getting this from? Do you realize that anime DVDs probably wouldn't sell at all if it weren't for dubs? The people who purchase the DVDs at all are either people who WANT the dubs, are curious of the series/dubbed version, or are people who have seen the series via subs and want to support their fandom and bring back merchandise for their collections. Even if there weren't subs, the industry probably wouldn't have done very well, anyway. Though, I don't think Western companies would do NEARLY as well if it weren't for the existence of subs, for reasons already stated in previous posts. However, pirating in any case, like downloading subbed episodes of anime, is still stealing, and there will always be that percentage of people who just download things without the intent of supporting what they're stealing in any way. It just isn't doing damage that significantly harms the industry.

What good would selling off the recording studios do? VAs enjoy their jobs, and not only that... DVDs would NOT sell without the dubs. DVDs would have nearly no value if they were just subs, and people downloading episodes off the internet probably wouldn't feel as guilty pirating... since all you're paying your money for is a sub you could already easily download from the internet, possibly in better quality. (And normal people that would supposedly be at least curious, would find it simply being subbed bothersome and low-value.) Besides, look at the latest generation of anime fans... Where are they coming from? They become fans by watching the DUBS aired on TV, and a good percentage of them have a preference for dubs rather than reading subtitles. A lot of fans appreciate the VAs, too. They're nearly famous and treated with respect, and are given a lot of attention in public appearances, and have been even nearly a decade ago. (According to a friend that had been in the con-scene at that time, American VAs always had the longest lines in comparison to other guests.)

Series like TMoHS (And people planning on buying Lucky Star) wouldn't have done as well as they did without the foundation of fans that have watched the subs, and will probably reach success in this fashion more often in the future. Series like Trinity Blood, Cowboy Bebop, NGE, Rurouni Kenshin, Inuyasha, etc probably wouldn't have done as well without the help of dubs. Hell, when I was a kid... the only reason why a lot of Americans became fans of anime were because of dubs of anime like Sailor Moon, Slayers, Ranma 1/2, Dragonball Z, Nuku Nuku, Devil Hunter Youko, and etc, because they were being made local and were giving people opportunity to discover them.

So, neither subs or spending money on dubs are the problems. It's the fact that... anime DVDs just don't sell as well as companies would like them to. Outside of the people who ARE interested in anime (which is the minority), who else would buy them? They're just cartoons to most people.

Though, the line I found really funny was...

Quote...and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes.

Yeah, because... I TOTALLY prefer subs because of the spiffy karaoke subtitles!

Quick survey: about how many times do you guys think you've had this discussion?

I've been through it maybe 4 or so... usually I'm alert enough to realize before joining in how pointless it'd be.

Then again, apparently some of us have nothing better to do than give our opinions on any subject under the sun.

Oh man, this is so poorly written that I had to reply.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 15, 2008, 05:25:08 PM
Do downloaders really care at all how the American middlemen companies are doing?  If the Japanese guests go to conventions and say explicitly that fansubs (as opposed to the Hong Kong pirates) are hurting them, then I think the downloaders are far more likely to listen.

Uhm... no. You act like people will listen to someone just because they're a Japanese guest. They won't... And again you seem to not understand how fansubbing works and how the industry is influenced/affected by it.

QuoteThe problem is that the American companies don't bring much to the table.  They translate (which fansubbers are willing to do for free -- and fansubbers have drastically raised the bar on subtitling on-screen text and opening and closing themes), and they seem to pay lots of money for dub voices that the downloaders obviously don't care about anyways.  The economics won't work: what it comes down to is that the companies are trying to get downloaders to partly subsidize voices and recording equipment and production studios and mixing personnel and air time and what not, which the downloaders just don't care about at all.

Oh man... the ignorance.

Fansubbers do HORRIBLE jobs translating. The ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY 2 reasons to download fansubs are...
1. it's faster than waiting for releases in the US
2. shows that don't get licensed.

You talk about economics, when you don't even understand economics, or business, or anything that's going on.

QuoteIf the American anime companies honestly believe that downloading is killing them, then it proves that they need to stop wasting money on dubbing and sell off the recording studios.  If dubbing anime is making enough of a difference that it's worthwhile for them to keep doing it, then downloaders logically can't be that big of a problem.

LE SIGH...

The majority of sales for DVD's are from the general market. If someone is downloading fansubs, they are not the general market, and are a niche market. Your average person, does not know of or download shows that aren't already commercialized. Your average fan, prefers to watch dubs.

G'ah... this is why I hate hate hate hate when uninformed and ignorant people speak and shoot out their opinions like they have something to prove when they don't know anything, and are usually the people that don't read/listen to other people(AS I COVERED MOST OF THIS ALREADY!)

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 15, 2008, 07:58:25 PMThe majority of sales for DVD's are from the general market. If someone is downloading fansubs, they are not the general market, and are a niche market. Your average person, does not know of or download shows that aren't already commercialized. Your average fan, prefers to watch dubs.

Yes.  And downloaded episodes don't have dubs, so downloaders (especially anime club downloads) cannot possibly be making a dent in the American anime industry.

I was presenting a logical dichotomy:  If dubs are important enough that the American anime industry needs to keep paying for them, then the downloads aren't hurting the American anime industry.  If downloads are hurting the American anime industry, then dub aren't important.  Right?

WHAT A HORRIBLE FALACY.

Dubs are important, because that is a huge part of the market.

Now, can you tell me how many people download cartoons, and are hardcore fans? Let's take numbers that I am looking at right now based on tracker websites.

Bleach Episode 160... 32,000 people total seeding+leeching.

Now, tell me. How many of those people will buy the DVDs? And then tell me, how many of those people WOULD have bought the DVDs if they hadn't already seen it?

Regardless, it's pirating and against the law. A lot of people, DON'T watch dubs, even if there are more that do watch dubs. Why are you even posting here... seriously? Are you trying to prove to yourself, and justify to yourself that "downloading anime isn't bad"?

Dubs and Subbed series are not mutually exclusive you realize right? Not ALL people that buy the DVD's watch dubbed, nor do ALL people that buy the DVDs watch it in subs. You're presenting a horrible falacy.

I like watching most shows in their native language... therefore I can bootleg Shaolin Soccer, Kung-Fu Hustle, Hard Boiled, and the huge number of other Asian movies that come out in the states right? Because I don't care for the dub, and most people prefer it dubbed, means that me pirating a movie even though the DVD has a subbed version on it, is perfectly okay... right? Hollywood put in money to dub it, therefore they should only make money from people that want to watch the dubbed version, and I can pirate all I want to watch it in its original language.

Let's use imaginary numbers again to prove how utterly retarded what you said is.

Let's say 80% of people watch it dubbed, and 20% watch it subbed right?

let's say a DVD sells 1,000,000 copies, and gains a profit of 2$ per dvd sold.

800,000dubbed watchers make the company 1.6million dollars. YAY \o/

200,000 subbed watchers make the company 400,000 dollars... YAY \o/

But, instead of those 200,000 subbed watchers buying the DVD they just download it instead, because obviously downloads cannot hurt the company right? They make their money through dubs and dubs alone. That 400,000 is IMAGINARY RIGHT?!?!?!??! Because dubs exist. Therefore people downloading instead of buying the DVDs DOESN'T HURT THE INDUSTRY!

Because that's what you're saying.

You cannot justify pirating as being good, because it's illegal. Even if you explain everything in a legitimate way(like I already did) It still doesn't change that you are illegally pirating media, and it's literally stealing from a company. You are not entitled to media for free, therefore it in the literal sense is stealing.

Now monetarilly does it hurt a company, it is very easilly arguable in every which way, on whether or not it hurts, helps, does nothing... but NOT because "LOLOLOL DVD's have dubs and fansubs are only subbed without dubs". It's very easilly argued that more niche and non-mainstream series(Haruhi, Claymore) are helped by fansubs, while bigger juggernaut titles(Naruto, Bleach) are hurt by fansubs. Even then there's no real way to prove it because it's impossible to realistically gather the required data. So what do we look at... the morality and legallity of it.

Fansubbing is wrong to do because it's illegal and is stealing from a company. It's not justifiable any other way.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 16, 2008, 12:55:27 AMWhy are you even posting here... seriously? Are you trying to prove to yourself, and justify to yourself that "downloading anime isn't bad"?

*shrug*  I own several hundred, maybe over a thousand, anime DVDs.  I'm not the one downloading.  However, I do enjoy anime clubs that show unlicensed fansubs.  I'm questioning the original poster's stance against anime club use of unlicensed series.

Now, I don't have an opinion whether it's right or wrong.  I'm just backing up the idea that it isn't tangibly killing the American anime industry.

QuoteLet's say 80% of people watch it dubbed, and 20% watch it subbed right?

How many people who tolerate it dubbed would prefer to watch it subbed?  Outside of the big Cartoon Network series, how many of the people who actually pay for smaller, less popular titles want it subbed vs dubbed?  I don't think anybody knows.  I'm saying there are ways for the American anime industry to cut costs for bringing titles over.

QuoteLet's say 80% of people watch it dubbed, and 20% watch it subbed right?
let's say a DVD sells 1,000,000 copies, and gains a profit of 2$ per dvd sold.
800,000dubbed watchers make the company 1.6million dollars. YAY \o/
200,000 subbed watchers make the company 400,000 dollars... YAY \o/
But, instead of those 200,000 subbed watchers buying the DVD they just download it instead, because obviously downloads cannot hurt the company right? They make their money through dubs and dubs alone. That 400,000 is IMAGINARY RIGHT?!?!?!??!

No, but if getting rid of the dub studios means that they'll end up making $8/dvd instead of $2/dvd, then that'd be something.  Also, how many of the dubbed watchers are completely unwilling to buy sub-only DVDs?  And, I don't think it's a good assumption that watchers translate to buyers.  How many additional customers will they gain if they can drop their prices by not dubbing the DVDs?  Maybe it'd be enough to make up for any lost dub buyers.

Previously, the American anime companies could count on people paying huge prices for the few anime series that came over because they chose carefully and anime was rare.  However, they've licensed anime like crazy.  Anime is no longer rare, but they're still charging a higher price than American films.  For $20, I can have the whole story of latest American blockbuster with deleted scenes, commentary, and extras, but I need to pay $25 for the first five episodes of a 13 episode anime series, and I'm not even sure they'll even tell me what the opening and ending and on-screen text say.  If I get the blockbuster, I'll be able to talk to lots of people about it.  If I get the anime instead, I'm not even sure that other anime fans would've seen it.  They can't get out of being a niche that way.

QuoteYou cannot justify pirating as being good, because it's illegal. Even if you explain everything in a legitimate way(like I already did) It still doesn't change that you are illegally pirating media, and it's literally stealing from a company. You are not entitled to media for free, therefore it in the literal sense is stealing.

Legally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

QuoteIt's very easilly argued that more niche and non-mainstream series(Haruhi, Claymore) are helped by fansubs, while bigger juggernaut titles(Naruto, Bleach) are hurt by fansubs. Even then there's no real way to prove it because it's impossible to realistically gather the required data.

I agreed with you the first time you said that.

QuoteSo what do we look at... the morality and legality of it.

Obviously, the lack of legality hasn't been stopping the downloaders.  It hasn't stopped anybody from speeding either.  Various cities even plan for speeding tickets to generate some amount of money, so even the goverment agrees that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing some things.

So, we're down to morality.  However, the morality question gets huge and very complicated because I question the morality of capitalism in general.  You see, a whole lot of people would love to sit around and draw anime and manga all day.  Some of them are actually very good at it.  But, they didn't get lucky in applying at the right time or to the right company, or they live in the wrong city and never got the opportunity to put their work in front of the right people, and they're stuck having to do something else to survive instead.  Is it moral that someone that isn't as good gets paid to draw anime and manga just because they got a lucky break?  I'm not in favor of socialism either: it seems like asking for trouble to assure that people will get resources without necessarily doing anything valuable.  The moral debate, as far as I can tell, just has no answer and no end, and I can't even begin to scratch the surface without writing a whole encyclopedia.

So, what do we do today?  Well, we plant seeds of ideas where we can, and we let other people toy with our seeds as we toy with theirs.  The original poster planted one seed, you planted another set of intertwining vines, everybody else who participated planted theirs, and I'm planting some of my own.  It'll be interesting to see what the plants look like years or decades from now.

Sorry, this all ended up inside a quotebox somehow. Quotes internal to the box are from Nyxyin. everything else is my text.

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Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:35:35 AMHow many people who tolerate it dubbed would prefer to watch it subbed?  Outside of the big Cartoon Network series, how many of the people who actually pay for smaller, less popular titles want it subbed vs dubbed?  I don't think anybody knows.  I'm saying there are ways for the American anime industry to cut costs for bringing titles over.

Here's a tidbit that you might not consider. Anime in the US is not marketed to adults, generally. It's marketed to teenagers. Teenagers can't always read quite as fast as subtitles require. Therefore they identify and choose dubbed anime as preferable. Hell, I know a number of adults that can't read fast enough to keep up with subtitles.

The simple fact is, WITH ANIME, DUBS SELL THE PRODUCT. Be it in Japan or the US. You can't sell the anime without a matching dub. Also, the Japanese licensors often REQUIRE that the product be dubbed. Partly because they fear reverse-importation, and secondarily because they know it SELLS BETTER.

Quotesnip 20/80 comparison

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Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:35:35 AMNo, but if getting rid of the dub studios means that they'll end up making $8/dvd instead of $2/dvd, then that'd be something.  Also, how many of the dubbed watchers are completely unwilling to buy sub-only DVDs?  And, I don't think it's a good assumption that watchers translate to buyers.  How many additional customers will they gain if they can drop their prices by not dubbing the DVDs?  Maybe it'd be enough to make up for any lost dub buyers.

They'd have to increase sales by a factor of 10 to be able to drop prices significantly. Considering they'd lose at least 50% of their market by failing to do a dub for a show, it would massively INCREASE prices.

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Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:35:35 AMFor $20, I can have the whole story of latest American blockbuster with deleted scenes, commentary, and extras, but I need to pay $25 for the first five episodes of a 13 episode anime series, and I'm not even sure they'll even tell me what the opening and ending and on-screen text say.

The reason anime is more expensive is because of the economy of the market. You can't make a product massively cheaper until you're printing/selling a whole hell of a lot more of it. That's what feature films do, they sell generally a factor of 10 or greater MORE units than anime does. Ergo, it can be priced down because of lower total cost of manufacturing and distribution. Anime is produced by relatively small companies as a 'niche' product. ADV does its own distributing and does save money this way. They also distribute for Funimation as well, since the companies are geographically nearby and it works well for them. Other anime companies tend to distribute through things like comic book distributors and the like. They do what they have to do to get their product out. Each distribution link in the system takes its own bite out of the price, and you pay for that.

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Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:35:35 AMLegally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

Ah, the old and hoary internet fallacy! "IT'S NOT REALLY STEALING I DIDN'T TAKE NOTHING FROM THEM OK" Sorry. you have. You have appropriated something for yourself, and failed to pay the manufacturer for it. It can even easily be valued, and as such can be considered larceny. Stop trying to justify your own actions by rationalizing them into something that's not bad. Accept the fact that you steal. Try to make yourself better.

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Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:35:35 AMSo, we're down to morality.  However, the morality question gets huge and very complicated because I question the morality of capitalism in general.  You see, a whole lot of people would love to sit around and draw anime and manga all day.  Some of them are actually very good at it.  But, they didn't get lucky in applying at the right time or to the right company, or they live in the wrong city and never got the opportunity to put their work in front of the right people, and they're stuck having to do something else to survive instead.

When you want to do a job, you do what it takes to get it. Whining about how "I DIDN'T LIVE IN THE RIGHT CITY!" or "I DIDN'T GET LUCKY!!" is bullshit. You make sacrifices to do what it takes to get where you have to be. This is why you find a hell of a lot of people in LA / Hollywood working low-end jobs to get by while they try to get their acting careers off the ground. If you have talent, you show it off. If other people (who matter, not just fans) think you do as well, then you'll be a success.

Ok. I'm done savaging the poster. Your turn Mikey.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:35:35 AM
*shrug*  I own several hundred, maybe over a thousand, anime DVDs.  I'm not the one downloading.  However, I do enjoy anime clubs that show unlicensed fansubs.  I'm questioning the original poster's stance against anime club use of unlicensed series.

A thousand dollars worth of DVD's isn't much, I hope you realize that. First let's look at Japanese standards.

Your average JP anime DVD= 5900yen upwards to 7200yen and has 1-3 episodes.
Your average American anime DVD=15-20$ and has 3-5 episodes.

Let's take the low end of the scale. 15$ a DVD

1000$/15$=66DVDs x 5 episodes= 330 episodes of shows. Congratulations you have approximately all of Naruto and YuyuHakusho on DVD AND THAT'S IT. You understand now? That's all of 2 series. Let's take JP standards then and whos you what 1000$ in DVD's are.

Let's take low end again with 5900yen. According to today's ticker 5900yen is 54.80$.
Let's say ALL of them some how have 3 episodes each(HA).
1000$/54.80= 18.25 dvds.
18.25rounding to 19 19x3= 57 episodes, which is a 2 season/4 ku-r run. So that's at best, 2 short series or one semi-long series. That's not even all of Kimagure Orange Road, or even all of Slayers.

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Now, I don't have an opinion whether it's right or wrong.  I'm just backing up the idea that it isn't tangibly killing the American anime industry.

Whether it is or isn't, you haven't proved a single thing about that at all, as everything youve said doesn't even apply.

QuoteHow many people who tolerate it dubbed would prefer to watch it subbed?  Outside of the big Cartoon Network series, how many of the people who actually pay for smaller, less popular titles want it subbed vs dubbed?  I don't think anybody knows.  I'm saying there are ways for the American anime industry to cut costs for bringing titles over.

Most prefer it dubbed. The large majority prefers it dubbed. cortana already talked about how it's marketed towards teens, but you realize the majority of people don't like watching forum films that force them to read right? I'm guessing you don't know anything about the realities of the market, and only saying things based on you and your small circle of friends. This being completely oblivious to the real world and market out there.

QuoteNo, but if getting rid of the dub studios means that they'll end up making $8/dvd instead of $2/dvd, then that'd be something.  Also, how many of the dubbed watchers are completely unwilling to buy sub-only DVDs?  And, I don't think it's a good assumption that watchers translate to buyers.  How many additional customers will they gain if they can drop their prices by not dubbing the DVDs?  Maybe it'd be enough to make up for any lost dub buyers.

Okay, let's say they make 8$ instead of 2$(which is so unrealistic it's not even funny). Let's use the numbers from before. They sell 200,000. x8

1.6million.

Now look at the previous numbers.

800,000x2
200,000x2
2million

THEY WOULD HAVE MADE MORE MONEY BEFORE. In addition to that, sales numbers would be so incredibly low, that mass-producing seems not as worth it, so it costs more per dvd to produce, lowering overall value and losing sponsorships, like from Cartoon Network, and other companies. Which means they lose even more money, making releasing the DVD's even hard to do at all.

So not only do they no longer have companies giving them money, it costs more per dvd to be made, their market is much smaller, so merchandising is lower, so they basically just screwed themselves in the ass if they "don't do dubs".

NOT TO MENTION that many companies force them to dub it for reasons cortana provided.

QuotePreviously, the American anime companies could count on people paying huge prices for the few anime series that came over because they chose carefully and anime was rare.  However, they've licensed anime like crazy.  Anime is no longer rare, but they're still charging a higher price than American films.  For $20, I can have the whole story of latest American blockbuster with deleted scenes, commentary, and extras, but I need to pay $25 for the first five episodes of a 13 episode anime series, and I'm not even sure they'll even tell me what the opening and ending and on-screen text say.  If I get the blockbuster, I'll be able to talk to lots of people about it.  If I get the anime instead, I'm not even sure that other anime fans would've seen it.  They can't get out of being a niche that way.

I'm guessing you aren't very old and didn't live through fansubbing of the early 90's and purchasing of VHS tapes.

Firstly, it seems you don't know how/where to shop for dvds. I can get almost any anime DVD for 21.99 or lower. You realize the quality of subtitles for licensed series, are usually about 10x greater than that of fansubs right? Fansubs are usually horrible in translation. And frankly, I can't stand retarded karaoke lyric style text in op/ed. I want to see the animations and the op as intended... not half of the screen covered in multi colored text with bouncing balls and text flying every which way. Besides it being unprofessional, it makes seeing difficult.

Now look at my numbers from before. Media isn't cheap. But just to do more math math math.

Your average blockbuster is 1hour 40minutes long. +20minutes of features.
Your average anime DVD is 2hours long, + random features.

The prices are justified... and you should be glad you don't have to pay Japanese prices.

QuoteLegally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

So you think you're a lawyer now too? Sorry, you're wrong, see cortana's post.

[

QuoteObviously, the lack of legality hasn't been stopping the downloaders.  It hasn't stopped anybody from speeding either.  Various cities even plan for speeding tickets to generate some amount of money, so even the goverment agrees that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing some things.

Obviously... but that's where it stands. It's wrong to do. Murder is illegal, and people still commit murder, doesn't make commiting murder right.

QuoteSo, we're down to morality.  However, the morality question gets huge and very complicated because I question the morality of capitalism in general.  You see, a whole lot of people would love to sit around and draw anime and manga all day.  Some of them are actually very good at it.  But, they didn't get lucky in applying at the right time or to the right company, or they live in the wrong city and never got the opportunity to put their work in front of the right people, and they're stuck having to do something else to survive instead.  Is it moral that someone that isn't as good gets paid to draw anime and manga just because they got a lucky break?  I'm not in favor of socialism either: it seems like asking for trouble to assure that people will get resources without necessarily doing anything valuable.  The moral debate, as far as I can tell, just has no answer and no end, and I can't even begin to scratch the surface without writing a whole encyclopedia.

Oh boo hoo cry me a river. Besides this having jack nothing to do with this subject at all, people do what they can. There's amazingly talented people that don't put in enough effort, and aren't lucky enough to be spotted, that's too bad, but that's how life is. If you don't get noticed, you can't get popular. If you're not getting noticed, you're not pushing hard enough, or you're not talented enough.

QuoteSo, what do we do today?  Well, we plant seeds of ideas where we can, and we let other people toy with our seeds as we toy with theirs.  The original poster planted one seed, you planted another set of intertwining vines, everybody else who participated planted theirs, and I'm planting some of my own.  It'll be interesting to see what the plants look like years or decades from now.

The original poster didn't plant a seed, they took a crap on the floor and called it a rose. I told him, his crap, was crap. Then you took another crap on the floor. Then I wrote down how things really are in reflection to that crap.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 16, 2008, 11:50:47 AMThe original poster didn't plant a seed, they took a crap on the floor and called it a rose. I told him, his crap, was crap. Then you took another crap on the floor. Then I wrote down how things really are in reflection to that crap.

That's nice of you.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 16, 2008, 11:50:47 AMA thousand dollars worth of DVD's isn't much

I know it isn't.  I own at least several hundred, maybe over a thousand anime <i>DVDs</i>, not "dollars worth of" DVDs.  According to my DVD tracking program, the retail value of the anime side of my DVD collection is over $20K.  For an individual, I think I do my part in supporting the American anime industry, partly subsidizing dubs that I don't care about and don't believe they should waste money on, paying a premium for anime compared to its competitors, and Geneon still decided to get out of the market.  Ironically, they're the ones with the highest retail price for their DVDs.  I listed the things that I thought would help make the American anime companies more efficient since I do have even more disposable income (about $100/month) that does go to American blockbuster DVDs and anime soundtracks and video games and manga instead.  (Manga isn't subbed, but I do find myself buying bilingual manga from Kinokuniya, and for a few series, I do get both Japanese and English versions even though I can't read Japanese.)

QuoteMost prefer it dubbed. The large majority prefers it dubbed. cortana already talked about how it's marketed towards teens

Older teens read faster than adults.  I don't know why people keep underestimating teenagers.  Many research studies claim that the brain starts declining at 20.

QuoteTHEY WOULD HAVE MADE MORE MONEY BEFORE.

I don't think the entire dub market would vanish, and watching on Cartoon Network isn't the same as buying DVDs.  I'd be interested in seeing sales numbers for "Cardcaptors" vs "Card Captor Sakura".  When was the last time they could get real dub vs sub numbers?  Back during the VHS days?  The kids these days seem to have an interesting level of Japanophilia that was not present during the VHS days.  Assumptions of teenagers still wanting dubs might no longer hold.  Pre-teens might still want dubs, but teenagers are much more savvy today than they were a decade ago.

QuoteNOT TO MENTION that many companies force them to dub it for reasons cortana provided.

It's an interesting argument.  It just doesn't make much sense to me because making companies dub the DVDs doesn't remove the subs.  I don't consider it to be beyond the Japanese companies to be unreasonable, however.

QuoteI'm guessing you aren't very old and didn't live through fansubbing of the early 90's and purchasing of VHS tapes.

I have a dozen or so anime VHS tapes.

QuoteFirstly, it seems you don't know how/where to shop for dvds. I can get almost any anime DVD for 21.99 or lower.

In reality, I do not buy American DVDs unless they're less than $10/DVD, and I personally get plenty of American blockbuster DVDs for that price.  I was just using retail price numbers for the sake of argument.

QuoteYou realize the quality of subtitles for licensed series, are usually about 10x greater than that of fansubs right?

It depends on how one defines "quality".  There are advantages and disadvantages to each.  Commercial companies are more likely to call takoyaki or a dango a "doughnut".

QuoteAnd frankly, I can't stand retarded karaoke lyric style text in op/ed. I want to see the animations and the op as intended... not half of the screen covered in multi colored text with bouncing balls and text flying every which way. Besides it being unprofessional, it makes seeing difficult.

I don't like the excessive bouncing ball, but many Japanese anime seem to air with Japanese subtitles for their opening and ending songs.  With DVDs, they can be made switchable, just like the episode subtitles.

QuoteYour average blockbuster is 1hour 40minutes long. +20minutes of features.

But I'm paying less than $10 for those.  The $20 ones have a whole second disk worth of extras, including director commentary, deleted scenes, and "making of" clips, which I enjoy a lot.

QuoteYour average anime DVD is 2hours long, + random features.

4 episodes is average, and at 25 minutes each, that's about 1 hr 40 min -- actually less if you're counting unique video because the opening and ending are often repetitive but still take up time.  Most anime disks don't have much in the way of random features: a few extra images, a creditless opening and ending, and random ads for other series at best.  I personally don't enjoy the very poorly done ads for other series.  And they scatter the few extras across the whole series, leaving some disks without any extras at all.

Quote

QuoteLegally, stealing technically includes the intent to deprive the original owner of the original object.  Therefore, copyright infringement is technically not stealing, although big media and software companies have done a very good job of convincing everybody that it is.

So you think you're a lawyer now too? Sorry, you're wrong, see cortana's post.

It's technically not "stealing" in a court of law.  It's "copyright infringement".  They're not legally "thieves", although big companies are trying very hard to change that, and they're getting closer and closer to succeeding.  I have taken college law classes.  Intellectual protectionism and copyright is a fascinating topic.  It didn't start with anime -- or with computers, for that matter, and no matter how people try to solve it now, the debates will come up again and again with every new technology.  It seems to be a hysteresis system with no good solution in this reality.  BTW, http://www.stealthisfilm.com/ has an interesting video.

QuoteThere's amazingly talented people that don't put in enough effort, and aren't lucky enough to be spotted, that's too bad, but that's how life is.

But is it "good", and is it "moral"?  There are a lot of things in life that aren't good or moral.  Shouldn't we try to fix them?  People are always going to "share cultural goods".  That is also how life is.  It doesn't mean that you refrain from trying to convince people that they shouldn't be that way.

Fun stuff!

I should point out a few things.

- Subs are much less effective in the market. Even back in the VHS days, dubbed titles tended to be cheaper. Why? They outsold subs. And this was when the core market that started everything grew up with, loved, and vehemently promoted subs.

- Look at the top Anime properties, and you'll see a slew of network shows: Naruto, Pokemon, Bleach, FMA. They're all dubbed. They have to be. Subbed anything just doesn't get wide reception, and so it doesn't get wide exposure.

Yes, you could say that dub vs. sub profitability could have changed in the last decade - after all, the market has grown - and that the market would be more tolerant of subs. But the market has grown due to greater exposure of the dubs. If dubs disappeared tomorrow, then some of them would stay and learn to love subs, but lots probably would not.

That doesn't mean the reverse holds. Getting rid of subs would alienate a (smaller) part of the market. Some would stay and learn to love dubs, but lots probably would not.

In either case, it doesn't matter; as Pyron pointed out with his examples, if either piece is affected, the whole is affected as well. Doesn't matter about "how much" - the net amount is still negative.

So back to the original topic.

Do fansubs hurt the market? With no moral assignment, I'm going to say yes. Fansub distribution is much, much different now than it was a decade ago. It's actually quite amazing. I mentioned before that one of BitTorrent's major uses is in anime distribution, which I'm sure is entirely fansubs. Microsoft would be jealous of how fast fansubbers get their job done. Anime companies simply have no chance at competing.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 01:56:56 PMI know it isn't.  I own at least several hundred, maybe over a thousand anime <i>DVDs</i>, not "dollars worth of" DVDs.  According to my DVD tracking program, the retail value of the anime side of my DVD collection is over $20K.  For an individual, I think I do my part in supporting the American anime industry, partly subsidizing dubs that I don't care about and don't believe they should waste money on, paying a premium for anime compared to its competitors, and Geneon still decided to get out of the market.  Ironically, they're the ones with the highest retail price for their DVDs.  I listed the things that I thought would help make the American anime companies more efficient since I do have even more disposable income (about $100/month) that does go to American blockbuster DVDs and anime soundtracks and video games and manga instead.  (Manga isn't subbed, but I do find myself buying bilingual manga from Kinokuniya, and for a few series, I do get both Japanese and English versions even though I can't read Japanese.)

Wow, and now instead of arguing the point, you're defending YOURSELF. Doesn't apply to this conversation, and frankly, I don't care how much you buy, because you are an individual and you don't reflect the market as a whole.

QuoteOlder teens read faster than adults.  I don't know why people keep underestimating teenagers.  Many research studies claim that the brain starts declining at 20.

Hasn't been proven anything that teenagers read faster than adults... and you don't understand that... "teenagers" include pre-teens as well. I'm fairly certain that 12-14 year olds cannot read/follow animations/comprehend it all at the same time as well as a 25 yr. old can.

QuoteI don't think the entire dub market would vanish, and watching on Cartoon Network isn't the same as buying DVDs.  I'd be interested in seeing sales numbers for "Cardcaptors" vs "Card Captor Sakura".  When was the last time they could get real dub vs sub numbers?  Back during the VHS days?  The kids these days seem to have an interesting level of Japanophilia that was not present during the VHS days.  Assumptions of teenagers still wanting dubs might no longer hold.  Pre-teens might still want dubs, but teenagers are much more savvy today than they were a decade ago.

It's the majority of the market though. Fans in the VHS days, were fans, not this fake retardo japanophile crap we have today. Why? Because things took effort and work to find. Teenagers THAT YOU KNOW are. You realize the market in California is not the same as say... the market in Lousiana, you realize that right? California has a huge and very powerful Asian(and more specifically Japanese) cultural base. The majority of the country does not have this same base. The majority of the country does not know a damned thing about Japanese culture(hell most of the people in california do not) and do not care to learn about it. They want to watch something in English because it is the language they know and understand. Once more I will state, you don't know crap about the market as whole, the nations base, or anything... and all you know and compare are the small circles and cultural bases that YOU are associated with. Here's some fun things you can try out. Go to the Cartoon Network forums, or go to much more mainstream bases. Try Amazon and read "normal peoples'" thoughts and ideas. Even in the more influenced circles, there is still an arguement of dub vs. sub, and that's with people that ARE more understanding and experienced. When you exit that circle, it gets even worse.

Let's take a blockbuster if you will.

Pan's Labyrinth. One of the most amazing movies of 2006, but before it got huge press reviews and releases, NO ONE WATCHED IT, for multiple reasons. It being a Spanish movie with subtitles is one of them. I saw the movie in theaters 3 times, and all 3 times I watched as multiple people walked out of the theatre because it was in Spanish. And this is a movie that was nominated for multiple awards and called the best movie of 2006 by hundreds to thousands of critics. This is the movie that got nearly any negative reviews at all.

QuoteIt's an interesting argument.  It just doesn't make much sense to me because making companies dub the DVDs doesn't remove the subs.  I don't consider it to be beyond the Japanese companies to be unreasonable, however.

Huh? Nope, but it does create a longer time between the releases. Because dubs have to be created, and releases are spanned over time, money etc. a Japanese buyer would have to wait months instead of buying the JP DVD.

QuoteI have a dozen or so anime VHS tapes.

/me claps

Should I care? You don't even understand or know about the market that exists now, god knows you wouldn't understand it back then when you were much younger.

QuoteIn reality, I do not buy American DVDs unless they're less than $10/DVD, and I personally get plenty of American blockbuster DVDs for that price.  I was just using retail price numbers for the sake of argument.

Your personal preference has NO BEARING ON THIS CONVERSATION, so stop talking about it. I couldn't careless if you were a billionaire that owns every single licensed released media in existance, because you are not the market. You could rob video stores and own these DVD's or buy them, or pirate them, etc. and it has no bearing on this conversation.

QuoteIt depends on how one defines "quality".  There are advantages and disadvantages to each.  Commercial companies are more likely to call takoyaki or a dango a "doughnut".

Incorrect. This is called localization. Have you ever worked in translation or localization before? Just to make sure you understand this... I have.

You have to know who you are marketing to and why. You use a horrible example seeing that no series calls takoyaki a donut. Onigiri is localized as donut occasionally for children's shows such as Pokemon, Zoids, Digimon and the such. The reason being is because the target audience is young children aging from 4-12. Your average American doesn't know what onigiri is. Your average American doesn't know what a rice ball is. God to hell knows that a 4-12 year old isn't going to in the majority of times unless they have a cultural root in Asian lifestyle. So why call it an onigiri, or a dango, or takoyaki... when neither them, nor their parents will know what it is? This is localization, translation so that the target audience will understand and can compare to it without problem. You realize subbers do things like this all the time as well right? Idioms in Japanese are very rarely explained in fansubs, and a lot of the time, the subbers do not understand the idioms. My good friend that I worked with, editors at our company and I would have long conversations about this when translating and localizing games. Puns in Japanese do not work in English 99% of the time, so how do you translate it? You change the literal and adapt a similar to it in English. Keeping in mind what the target audience is, you do it different ways. A change in a series for 16 yr. olds would not be the same change you'd use for a series made for 6 year olds.

But I will keep this simple. You don't know jack about the Japanese language, so don't argue with people that have worked in translation and localization for years on whether or not fansubbers do a good job translating. They simply don't.

QuoteI don't like the excessive bouncing ball, but many Japanese anime seem to air with Japanese subtitles for their opening and ending songs.  With DVDs, they can be made switchable, just like the episode subtitles.

Most US releases have them as well. It's based on the episode number whether or not it will be a translation or the romanji for the lyrics.

QuoteBut I'm paying less than $10 for those.  The $20 ones have a whole second disk worth of extras, including director commentary, deleted scenes, and "making of" clips, which I enjoy a lot.

We're talking normal stores at time of release. Retail stores and the such.

Quote4 episodes is average, and at 25 minutes each, that's about 1 hr 40 min -- actually less if you're counting unique video because the opening and ending are often repetitive but still take up time.  Most anime disks don't have much in the way of random features: a few extra images, a creditless opening and ending, and random ads for other series at best.  I personally don't enjoy the very poorly done ads for other series.  And they scatter the few extras across the whole series, leaving some disks without any extras at all.

Welcome to media. Now are you going to complain that VHS tapes costed about 20$ each back then as well and had no extras at all? You act like you are entitled to X amount of free stuff that are BONUSES and the such. The play times are etc. You can compare that to US releases in itself. Compare a box set for Family Guy to a blockbuster DVD. ZOMG BLOCKBUSTER DVD'S ARE NOT WORTH IT.

TV shows are a different media and a different type. Movie tickets cost 12$ now. For 1 3/4 hour of movie, 20min of trailers, and I don't get to keep it. Are you going to bitch about that now?

QuoteIt's technically not "stealing" in a court of law.  It's "copyright infringement".  They're not legally "thieves", although big companies are trying very hard to change that, and they're getting closer and closer to succeeding.  I have taken college law classes.  Intellectual protectionism and copyright is a fascinating topic.  It didn't start with anime -- or with computers, for that matter, and no matter how people try to solve it now, the debates will come up again and again with every new technology.  It seems to be a hysteresis system with no good solution in this reality.  BTW, http://www.stealthisfilm.com/ has an interesting video.

Nope, it is stealing, but it's not charged under the same criminal act of larceny. It's still stealing of intellectual property though. Sorry, you lose again.

QuoteBut is it "good", and is it "moral"?  There are a lot of things in life that aren't good or moral.  Shouldn't we try to fix them?  People are always going to "share cultural goods".  That is also how life is.  It doesn't mean that you refrain from trying to convince people that they shouldn't be that way.

People EARN things. But by your defention, I'm down. I'm coming over, give me your address so I can take your stuff under the idea that you're "sharing cultural goods" with me.

[/quote]

Quote from: Tony on February 16, 2008, 03:40:15 PMFun stuff!

Yup!  Completely agreed!

Quote- Subs are much less effective in the market. Even back in the VHS days, dubbed titles tended to be cheaper. Why? They outsold subs. And this was when the core market that started everything grew up with, loved, and vehemently promoted subs.

I wish I knew more about those numbers.  Urusei Yatsura just isn't going to compare to Robotech.  And, overall, I find it very likely that Robotech (which is dub only) outsold tons of other series combined.  So, yes, overall, dubs would drastically outsell subs.  But, if we concentrated on one series like Urusei Yatsura, would dubs still have outsold subs?  Today, I'm sure all the Cartoon Network ones would drastically sell more dubs than subs, but not all titles end up on Cartoon Network.  Maybe something like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei would be more profitable as a sub-only release.

Quote- Look at the top Anime properties, and you'll see a slew of network shows: Naruto, Pokemon, Bleach, FMA. They're all dubbed. They have to be. Subbed anything just doesn't get wide reception, and so it doesn't get wide exposure.

They're licensing a lot of series that aren't Naruto, Pokemon, Bleach, and FMA.  They're licensing so many series that there's no way all of them are going to get wide exposure.

QuoteIn either case, it doesn't matter; as Pyron pointed out with his examples, if either piece is affected, the whole is affected as well. Doesn't matter about "how much" - the net amount is still negative.

Not necessarily.  Pyron was assuming no cost savings for removing the pieces.  If the American anime companies are in trouble, is the dub market buying enough to pay for the dub studios?

QuoteDo fansubs hurt the market? With no moral assignment, I'm going to say yes. Fansub distribution is much, much different now than it was a decade ago. It's actually quite amazing. I mentioned before that one of BitTorrent's major uses is in anime distribution, which I'm sure is entirely fansubs. Microsoft would be jealous of how fast fansubbers get their job done. Anime companies simply have no chance at competing.

I've been contemplating economic models in general, and the per-piece purchasing seems to not be working for lots of electronic media.  Monthly service fees seem to be on the rise.  Maybe anime companies can ask people to pay a monthly fee for access to a BitTorrent service with legal downloadable anime.  The fees would pay for licensing and production costs.  The anime companies don't have to print physical individual DVDs or keepsake cases or inserts, they don't have to worry about inventory or shelf space, and that should save some of the costs too.  It's not just anime, but technology is changing the way people are willing to behave towards all digitizable media.  The movie and music industries have to deal with this too.  Many TV shows have downloadable episodes.  They're doing great things with TiVo downloads.  It'd be interesting to see if anime can piggyback on that.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 16, 2008, 04:26:29 PMI'm coming over, give me your address so I can take your stuff under the idea that you're "sharing cultural goods" with me.

"Under California law, theft crimes—also called Larceny—are crimes in which a person intentionally takes and carries away the property of another without permission with the intent to permanently deprive that person of their interest in that property."
-- http://www.california-criminal-lawyer.com/theft.html

If you deprive me of the original, it's theft.  If you come over and copy all my DVDs and take pictures of everything, it's not theft.  It's definitely sketchy (trespassing, invasion of privacy), but it's not theft.

Quote from: Tony on February 14, 2008, 12:52:21 PMit's important to discourage illegal downloads, but the industry needs to be mostly reactive to the market.

So...  The problem we're trying to address are the 40K people who download.  What do we know about them?  Well, not a whole lot.  In particular, we don't know if they actually watch the episodes they download, and we don't know if they are or aren't buying the DVDs when the series do get licensed.  We don't really know if they're part of the "market" or not, and we don't know if they can be converted to buying anime DVDs.  If fansubs were somehow magically stopped all at once, maybe all these 40K people wouldn't miss it and they would just download manga instead.  We do know that these 40K don't care about dubs, and they don't care about physical media.  We also know that they seem used to getting the anime for free.  Would it hurt the American anime industries less if, instead of having fansubs removed upon licensing, get the fansubs converted to make money for the company somehow?  Maybe link to where the official DVDs and related merchandise can be purchased.  Or have a link to omake which can be downloaded for a fee or subscribed to on a monthly basis.  Have reviews showing how the commercial DVDs are better.  Have fans compare the series to other series and have links to where you can buy the other series.  There can be a lot of potential for getting value out of the 40K users instead of just saying that they're wrong and getting them to stop doing what they're doing.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 07:02:07 PMI wish I knew more about those numbers.  Urusei Yatsura just isn't going to compare to Robotech.  And, overall, I find it very likely that Robotech (which is dub only) outsold tons of other series combined.  So, yes, overall, dubs would drastically outsell subs.  But, if we concentrated on one series like Urusei Yatsura, would dubs still have outsold subs?  Today, I'm sure all the Cartoon Network ones would drastically sell more dubs than subs, but not all titles end up on Cartoon Network.  Maybe something like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei would be more profitable as a sub-only release.

Dubs outsell subs in virtually all cases that existed in VHS times.

QuoteThey're licensing a lot of series that aren't Naruto, Pokemon, Bleach, and FMA.  They're licensing so many series that there's no way all of them are going to get wide exposure.

You seem to not get this. The majority of people that buy these dvd's watch it dubbed. That's where the majority of the money comes from.

QuoteNot necessarily.  Pyron was assuming no cost savings for removing the pieces.  If the American anime companies are in trouble, is the dub market buying enough to pay for the dub studios?

Huh? Again... you seem to not realize, that the majority of the income... comes from dubs. You can't market something without a dubbed version, and the biggest market is dubs. WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS, it's been repeated like 50 times by multiple people.

QuoteI've been contemplating economic models in general, and the per-piece purchasing seems to not be working for lots of electronic media.  Monthly service fees seem to be on the rise.  Maybe anime companies can ask people to pay a monthly fee for access to a BitTorrent service with legal downloadable anime.  The fees would pay for licensing and production costs.  The anime companies don't have to print physical individual DVDs or keepsake cases or inserts, they don't have to worry about inventory or shelf space, and that should save some of the costs too.  It's not just anime, but technology is changing the way people are willing to behave towards all digitizable media.  The movie and music industries have to deal with this too.  Many TV shows have downloadable episodes.  They're doing great things with TiVo downloads.  It'd be interesting to see if anime can piggyback on that.

And this is the first legitimate thing you've said in this entire thread. However, here's the issue, trackers, and bittorrent are public domain, and Bittorrent as a whole is VERY shakey. There would be a whole bunch of programs, locks, and other things that would have to be made for this to work correctly, and it would still be very iffy.

Now here's a big issue with this. Why would someone pay to download anime from a legitimate source, when they can download it for free using the exact same method with less of a hassle? With DVD's it's because there is a physical copy, boxes, art, bonuses extras, etc. Unless you're torrenting ISOs, you don't get those extras and bonuses, or you'd have to make them seperately downloadable on the torrents. Also, speed issues. People will sit there and leech them, will they also upload as well? If there are designated boxes and servers that will upload, the companies will pay for bandwidth. Bandwidth isn't cheap.

Now go quickly write up a budget on how much they will save by not using physical media, but how much it will cost for servers and bandwidth usage, and then do a comparison of how much people will have to buy/how many people would need to subscrive vs. how much they download, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

See, throwing out ideas sound good, but without the reasonable amount of background and thought put into it and how it'll work, it's virtually useless.

Quote"Under California law, theft crimes—also called Larceny—are crimes in which a person intentionally takes and carries away the property of another without permission with the intent to permanently deprive that person of their interest in that property."
-- http://www.california-criminal-lawyer.com/theft.html

If you deprive me of the original, it's theft.  If you come over and copy all my DVDs and take pictures of everything, it's not theft.  It's definitely sketchy (trespassing, invasion of privacy), but it's not theft.

Who said I wouldn't leave you copies of the media? Regardless what you're saying is still incorrect. It IS stealing, it's just not filed under the same law as physical stealing. If I steal someone's idea for something, and make a product exactly the same after he showed it to me, it is still stealing, even if it's not under the jurisdiction and law of "theft/larceny".

QuoteSo...  The problem we're trying to address are the 40K people who download.  What do we know about them?  Well, not a whole lot.  In particular, we don't know if they actually watch the episodes they download, and we don't know if they are or aren't buying the DVDs when the series do get licensed.  We don't really know if they're part of the "market" or not, and we don't know if they can be converted to buying anime DVDs.  If fansubs were somehow magically stopped all at once, maybe all these 40K people wouldn't miss it and they would just download manga instead.  We do know that these 40K don't care about dubs, and they don't care about physical media.  We also know that they seem used to getting the anime for free.  Would it hurt the American anime industries less if, instead of having fansubs removed upon licensing, get the fansubs converted to make money for the company somehow?  Maybe link to where the official DVDs and related merchandise can be purchased.  Or have a link to omake which can be downloaded for a fee or subscribed to on a monthly basis.  Have reviews showing how the commercial DVDs are better.  Have fans compare the series to other series and have links to where you can buy the other series.  There can be a lot of potential for getting value out of the 40K users instead of just saying that they're wrong and getting them to stop doing what they're doing.

Well I can without a doubt state that, some people would buy the DVDs if they couldn't get them for free. There is not arguing that statement. The two big draws of downloading are that, it's faster to get the media desired, and it's free. This isn't about coverting or anything, which is my original point. There are negative drawbacks from downloading, just as there are positive ones. You cannot say that fansubs hurt companies monetarilly as there are too many factors to consider, and the information is impossible to collect. So the one thing that can be stated is that...

The action is illegal to do and that it DOES remove possible business from the company(regardless if whether or not it also adds to possible business, as those are two different factors and stem from very different reasonings).

Therefore there is no justification of fansubbing as being "good". Simply put: If you are fansubbing, you are admittingly stealing media from a company.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 16, 2008, 07:02:07 PM
I wish I knew more about those numbers.  Urusei Yatsura just isn't going to compare to Robotech.  And, overall, I find it very likely that Robotech (which is dub only) outsold tons of other series combined.  So, yes, overall, dubs would drastically outsell subs.  But, if we concentrated on one series like Urusei Yatsura, would dubs still have outsold subs?  Today, I'm sure all the Cartoon Network ones would drastically sell more dubs than subs, but not all titles end up on Cartoon Network.  Maybe something like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei would be more profitable as a sub-only release.

This is just my recollection of suncoast days, when I recall subs were generally $30/tape and dubs were $25.

QuoteThey're licensing a lot of series that aren't Naruto, Pokemon, Bleach, and FMA.  They're licensing so many series that there's no way all of them are going to get wide exposure.

... not sure the relevance of this. But I agree. They're probably trying to diversify, either in an attempt at stability or as a symbolic gesture to the business side - but it's not working.

QuoteNot necessarily.  Pyron was assuming no cost savings for removing the pieces.  If the American anime companies are in trouble, is the dub market buying enough to pay for the dub studios?

Good point. But it's really complicated. There are arrangements where they could be losing money on the dub, but making it up in other areas. Or maybe they're barely making a profit, but are getting huge revenues. (It sounds great to say a property brought in $1 million in revenues, even if there's little net profit.)

QuoteI've been contemplating economic models in general, and the per-piece purchasing seems to not be working for lots of electronic media.  Monthly service fees seem to be on the rise.  Maybe anime companies can ask people to pay a monthly fee [...]

Not bad ideas necessarily. Fact is, the world changes, so the models are going to have to change too. You can't expect to distribute VHS tapes to Suncoast and call it a day, anymore.  :P

QuoteSo...  The problem we're trying to address are the 40K people who download.

Yep. I pretty much agree with all of the qualities you've ascribed to them. I think stigmatizing downloading while ALSO working out more effective models will help convert them to customers. Few - maybe 10% at most - but it's better than none.

I once heard that the Transformers cartoon was created as a marketing vehicle for the toys. I.e. the show was only to get kids to buy toys. Maybe that model has an option. Ween the industry off of video sales and move it to publishing and merchandising.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 16, 2008, 10:51:06 PMNow go quickly write up a budget on how much they will save by not using physical media, but how much it will cost for servers and bandwidth usage, and then do a comparison of how much people will have to buy/how many people would need to subscribe vs. how much they download, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

See, throwing out ideas sound good, but without the reasonable amount of background and thought put into it and how it'll work, it's virtually useless.

There's a "lame duck" period when a show is licensed before it comes out on DVD.  Right now, companies send cease-and-desist notes to the fansubbers, the material gets taken off the trackers, and the series basically goes black.  The "gray" people who are more likely to spend money on the series end up in a drought, and the series loses its fansub publicity with those people.  Instead, only the "black" people remember the series because they keep downloading it.

Instead of issuing a cease-and-desist, why not capitalize on the lame duck period?  Ask the fansubbers to link to publicity for the series while it is being subbed and dubbed.  Put up early sneak-peek omake on iTunes or Amazon Unbox or some other hoster that will charge people some small amount of money for them.  Maybe ask fansubbers to splice commercials for these omake or merchandise or soundtracks into the middle of the fansubs (in between the two eye catches in the middle of the show) in return for allowing them to continue distributing during the lame duck time.  Instead of making a series go black, maybe try using the lame duck period to generate even more hype and maybe some amount of revenue.  Somehow, these fansubbers are giving away BitTorrent tracker and seeder bandwidth and hosting some amount of series information for free.  Why shouldn't there be a way for an American anime company to capitalize on those freely donated resources during the period when they're currently unable to make any money on a license they've purchased?

QuoteThe action is illegal to do and that it DOES remove possible business from the company(regardless if whether or not it also adds to possible business, as those are two different factors and stem from very different reasonings).

Therefore there is no justification of fansubbing as being "good".

There is also very little profit from declaring fansubs to be "bad" and begging people to stop downloading.  As far as I can tell, most of them already know that it's technically illegal at some level (whether they think it's moral or not is a different issue), but they do it anyways.  Even if it isn't good now, it can at least be made better.  Right now, the fansubbers are raising awareness and holding a bit of a line against some people turning to outright pirates.  Many people rip and pirate American DVDs right now.  I think the average fansub downloader has more respect and goodwill towards the American anime companies than most rippers have for the American Big Media companies because the fansub groups teaching downloaders about licensing.  Even if some groups are only paying lip service, I think even lip service helps prevent some number of people from crossing the line into outright piracy.  If fansubbing were fully suppressed, I imagine a rather large percent would just turn full pirate and torrent rips after they're released instead of respecting cease-and-desist requests.  Sure, the American anime companies can fully bring the legal system down on the pirates, but then costs would go up from lawyer fees, and from all the noise it's making, it doesn't sound like Big Media is having much success with that strategy.  We've already seen the recording industry piss off its talent and its consumers to the point that some artists seem to actually incite the customers to circumvent the big recording studios.  Hopefully, the American anime companies are smarter than that.  They claim they were once fansubbers too.  Don't they remember when they had more time and passion than money and would've been thrilled and delighted -- and ecstatic to comply if the companies had reached out to them and legitimized them?

Fansubbers are interesting creatures.  They do it even though they know it's illegal.  They do it even though it actually costs them time and money.  What do they get out of it?  And are they really fans?  How many of them are actually ego-subbers?  Even if they are ego-subbers, can ego be capitalized on by the American anime companies?  What do we know about them?  We know that they're giving their time away for free.  We know that they're also somehow acquiring bandwidth that they're giving away for free.  Can't the American anime companies take advantage of and make money on those freely given resources instead of trying to suppress them?

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 17, 2008, 02:04:51 AM

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 16, 2008, 10:51:06 PMNow go quickly write up a budget on how much they will save by not using physical media, but how much it will cost for servers and bandwidth usage, and then do a comparison of how much people will have to buy/how many people would need to subscribe vs. how much they download, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

See, throwing out ideas sound good, but without the reasonable amount of background and thought put into it and how it'll work, it's virtually useless.

There's a "lame duck" period when a show is licensed before it comes out on DVD.  Right now, companies send cease-and-desist notes to the fansubbers, the material gets taken off the trackers, and the series basically goes black.  The "gray" people who are more likely to spend money on the series end up in a drought, and the series loses its fansub publicity with those people.  Instead, only the "black" people remember the series because they keep downloading it.

This is called production time. It takes time to re-encode, author, and develop a DVD, as well as translate, script and subtitle it. Then you have to design packaging, contract for distribution, advertise, market it, and get it to market. Oh, and you have to spend time and money dubbing it as well. Oh, and they have to wait for the masters from the Japanese licensor. That often does not happen until AFTER the domestic market's DVD run is at least partially complete.

QuoteInstead of issuing a cease-and-desist, why not capitalize on the lame duck period?  Ask the fansubbers to link to publicity for the series while it is being subbed and dubbed.  Put up early sneak-peek omake on iTunes or Amazon Unbox or some other hoster that will charge people some small amount of money for them.  Maybe ask fansubbers to splice commercials for these omake or merchandise or soundtracks into the middle of the fansubs (in between the two eye catches in the middle of the show) in return for allowing them to continue distributing during the lame duck time.  Instead of making a series go black, maybe try using the lame duck period to generate even more hype and maybe some amount of revenue.  Somehow, these fansubbers are giving away BitTorrent tracker and seeder bandwidth and hosting some amount of series information for free.  Why shouldn't there be a way for an American anime company to capitalize on those freely donated resources during the period when they're currently unable to make any money on a license they've purchased?

The simple answer? The US licensors don't have the rights to give away the property to sublicensors to sell bits of. They also don't have the right to give it to fansubbers to 'splice into' their pirate releases. By doing this, you would implicitly PROMOTE these activities. No lawyer would even let you CONSIDER this. It opens the licensing company to massive possible liability. However, let's look at things. Bandai did do this to some extent with Haruhi, with good results. We might be seeing a bit of a change.

QuoteEven if it isn't good now, it can at least be made better.  Right now, the fansubbers are raising awareness and holding a bit of a line against some people turning to outright pirates.  Many people rip and pirate American DVDs right now.  I think the average fansub downloader has more respect and goodwill towards the American anime companies than most rippers have for the American Big Media companies because the fansub groups teaching downloaders about licensing.  Even if some groups are only paying lip service, I think even lip service helps prevent some number of people from crossing the line into outright piracy.  If fansubbing were fully suppressed, I imagine a rather large percent would just turn full pirate and torrent rips after they're released instead of respecting cease-and-desist requests. 

In general, this is a fallacy. SOME fansubbing groups have ethics and do what they can to follow the 'rules'. MOST, however, do not, and could care less about licensing. They release it as fast as they can for ego, regardless of licensing. There are also sites DEVOTED to cataloguing entire series releases as torrents. Entire groups DEVOTED to ripping the US dvds for torrenting. The AVERAGE downloader just wants stuff cheap/free.

...

I don't even understand why you're replying to us anymore or what the hell you're trying to prove. "Things should be done"... yeah but it's not that easy.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 17, 2008, 11:12:55 AMI don't even understand why you're replying to us anymore

Because people are responding.

Quoteor what the hell you're trying to prove.

Why should I be trying to prove anything?  As Tony says, this is fun.  It's free entertainment.  Throwing out ideas of possible solutions is fun, and so is having people refine them.  After all, this is only a fan bboard -- if I were going to go through the effort to actually prove something, work up the numbers, and write up a viable plan, someone has to pay me for it.  There's a reason I can afford my entertainment.  Still, it's fun to dream.

Quote from: cortana on February 17, 2008, 09:17:46 AMThis is called production time.

Whatever it's called, it's a time when, from the point of view of the American anime companies, they hold title, but money is going out and not coming in.  If they're going under, maybe it'd be useful to consider strategies about how to make money during that time.

QuoteThe simple answer? The US licensors don't have the rights to give away the property to sublicensors to sell bits of.

They have trailers.  They have producers, translators, voice actors, production crew, etc.  They can try throwing together their own "making of" material or producer's commentary or what not.

QuoteBy doing this, you would implicitly PROMOTE these activities. No lawyer would even let you CONSIDER this.

True, the legal system and the Big Media ideas of protecting copyrights and such need changing, but the anime industry might still be nimble enough to do it.  The Japanese companies had a history of supporting fans, so maybe they can help if they haven't completely bought into Big Media's ideas yet.  Times are changing.

It's similar to the "legalize drugs" arguments.  If drugs are made legal, it does partly legitimize the drug use.  However, if drugs were legalized properly, the government would also be able to regulate them by requiring prescriptions and minimum standards (to try to prevent problems from impurities) and to make money off of them by taxing drug use and preventing sales to minors and all that.  For a company, the choice should be clear: companies should care more about profits.  Partly legitimizing something to regulate it and make money off of it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

QuoteHowever, let's look at things. Bandai did do this to some extent with Haruhi, with good results. We might be seeing a bit of a change.

Neat!  What did Bandai do with Haruhi?

QuoteSOME fansubbing groups have ethics and do what they can to follow the 'rules'. MOST, however, do not, and could care less about licensing. They release it as fast as they can for ego, regardless of licensing.

Sure, but their egos are causing them to donate free time.  Surely their egos can be exploited to a certain extent.  Ego-stroking can be rather cheap.

QuoteEntire groups DEVOTED to ripping the US dvds for torrenting.

I know that happens with US-made films, and yes, that's a larger issue.  I wouldn't know the numbers for R1 rips because I never bothered to figure out where to find them.  The unlicensed anime, however, do seem to have download numbers posted, and there are some series in which almost 40K people have download not-yet-licensed anime.  Previous posts have claimed that this number isn't insignificant.  If people are downloading R1 rips, they're not likely to be fans of what they're downloading.  If anime R1 rips vanished, they would probably give up anime and go for some other rip.  They'll probably just go for what's cheap, and with the Internet, there will always be something available for free, even if it's just a football-to-the-groin YouTube video.  Nobody is ever going to be able to make those people pay for anything, so it's a waste of resources to even try.  If they make Metallica unavailable for download, these people would decide that they just don't like Metallica, and they start liking artists that make their stuff free.  It seems like a more efficient use of resources to give up on the lost causes and concentrate on getting whatever money possible out of the cases that aren't quite so lost.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 17, 2008, 03:11:48 PMWhatever it's called, it's a time when, from the point of view of the American anime companies, they hold title, but money is going out and not coming in.  If they're going under, maybe it'd be useful to consider strategies about how to make money during that time.

You act as if it's so easy and simple. You realize these companies have people that have gone to school specifically for reasons like this and in dealing with situations like this, and have been doing this job for years right? You act as if you somehow know some amazing secret that these people don't, and your idea could save them from hardship, make them billions of dollars and save the industry. You act as if these companies can just go "Hey, we're not making money during the time we are negotiating, designing and CREATING A PRODUCT TO SELL, we should make money while we're doing this magically". And have the rest of the company go "You're right... let's turn on the 'make money switch' right now!"

Once more, you sound like you don't know crap about business, sales, marketing, and the process that goes through it. It takes money, investments, and action to create and sell a product.

QuoteThey have trailers.  They have producers, translators, voice actors, production crew, etc.  They can try throwing together their own "making of" material or producer's commentary or what not.

"Making of" material? This costs money too and what would they get in return for doing this? How would any of that make the company money instead of costing them more? Hell your response had nothing to do with what cortana even said. His response was about how giving things to fansubbers and/or other companies for promotional usage and side sales is ILLEGAL.

QuoteTrue, the legal system and the Big Media ideas of protecting copyrights and such need changing, but the anime industry might still be nimble enough to do it.  The Japanese companies had a history of supporting fans, so maybe they can help if they haven't completely bought into Big Media's ideas yet.  Times are changing.

Huh? Who said they need changing? They're created so that intellectual property is conserved and companies can't do whatever they want with someone elses(Or companies) intellectual property. WHAT IN GOD'S HELL ARE YOU EVEN TRYING TO SAY HERE? That companies should have the right to do whatever they want with someone else's property just because the company says they can release it?

QuoteIt's similar to the "legalize drugs" arguments.  If drugs are made legal, it does partly legitimize the drug use.  However, if drugs were legalized properly, the government would also be able to regulate them by requiring prescriptions and minimum standards (to try to prevent problems from impurities) and to make money off of them by taxing drug use and preventing sales to minors and all that.  For a company, the choice should be clear: companies should care more about profits.  Partly legitimizing something to regulate it and make money off of it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

Wait... what? These two situations are nothing even close to being similar. Legalizing drugs is about gov't -> consumer. Fansubbing is Company A -> Company B with their rights, and allowing company B to release Company A's product in a different country. Fansubbers cannot be added into that equation without dealing with both Company A and Company B and legally paying to use what they have, which would in turn be dealing with more money.

*Added*
If you would want it to be similar it would be. Gov't has to farm and process the drugs, and then distribute, and while this is going on they're not making money. THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HIRE STREET DRUG DEALERS TO SELL DRUGS THAT THEY STOLE FROM THE GOV'T, OR THE GOV'T SHOULD GIVE DRUG DEALERS DRUGS TO SELL ON THE STREET, AND JUST GIVE SOME OF THE PROFIT TO THE GOV'T!

Seeing that you think ignoring distribution laws, screwing over legit companies that sell it, and all that is a good idea.

QuoteNeat!  What did Bandai do with Haruhi?

Viral marketing and using the already established fansub popularity to promote. The ASOS-Dan, and crap like that. They used the established to promote in a new way.

QuoteSure, but their egos are causing them to donate free time.  Surely their egos can be exploited to a certain extent.  Ego-stroking can be rather cheap.

No it won't, because this will break hundreds of laws. Companies cannot make money off of the free labor of outside sources. In addition to they are not allowed to give said media to these sources without getting the okay of the parent company. There's so many laws that would be broken all over the place that it's terrible that this idea is even brought up.

QuoteI know that happens with US-made films, and yes, that's a larger issue.  I wouldn't know the numbers for R1 rips because I never bothered to figure out where to find them.  The unlicensed anime, however, do seem to have download numbers posted, and there are some series in which almost 40K people have download not-yet-licensed anime.  Previous posts have claimed that this number isn't insignificant.  If people are downloading R1 rips, they're not likely to be fans of what they're downloading.  If anime R1 rips vanished, they would probably give up anime and go for some other rip.  They'll probably just go for what's cheap, and with the Internet, there will always be something available for free, even if it's just a football-to-the-groin YouTube video.  Nobody is ever going to be able to make those people pay for anything, so it's a waste of resources to even try.  If they make Metallica unavailable for download, these people would decide that they just don't like Metallica, and they start liking artists that make their stuff free.  It seems like a more efficient use of resources to give up on the lost causes and concentrate on getting whatever money possible out of the cases that aren't quite so lost.

You've a phd in psych, and a marketing major now as well I see. What you say is totally untrue at all.

I like Mexican food, and someone offers me all the Mexican food I can eat for the rest of my life. Then he goes "Nope, you are no longer getting free Mexican food", then some other guy goes "HAYS I will give you free Indian food for the rest of your life." Does that mean I will no longer pay to eat Mexican food because I can get Indian food for free? People's tastes, and wants aren't so simple. Metallica didn't allow downloads, they didn't lose their fanbase and have everyone desert them after that... you realize. So even in your own example you are wrong.

So let me get this straight. To you, it's fun to say incredibly stupid and ignorant stuff, knowing full well you haven't a damned clue what you're talking about, and instead of putting in thought to what you say so that it isn't full of stupid, you keep doing it so that people have to constantly correct you.

God... I guess this makes me pretty pathetic that I spend the time to correct your stupidly written posts.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 17, 2008, 06:41:19 PMI like Mexican food, and someone offers me all the Mexican food I can eat for the rest of my life. Then he goes "Nope, you are no longer getting free Mexican food", then some other guy goes "HAYS I will give you free Indian food for the rest of your life." Does that mean I will no longer pay to eat Mexican food because I can get Indian food for free? People's tastes, and wants aren't so simple.

I said that there is a subset of people who will swap from free Mexican food to free Indian food simply because it's free food.  For example, starving grad students will eat anything as long as its free, no matter how crappy it is.  They will even crash parties that they're not invited to just to get it.  Those people are just lost to the market, so it's not profitable to worry about them at all.  However, there are some subset of not-quite-so-staving grad students who would might pay $0.50 for food if that means they didn't have to embarrass themselves and crash parties that they're not invited to.  They might pay even more for a taco just because it's Mexican food.  And they might pay even more than that if they can buy tacos at 3am when all other food options are closed.  There is more money to be made by thinking about how to sell tacos to those people -- the true fans of Mexican food -- rather than trying to arrest all grad students if they try to crash parties with Mexican food.

Big Media has a whole lot more people being paid to market than American anime companies have ever dreamt of affording, and it didn't prevent them from losing sight of where their market is.

QuoteTo you, it's fun to say incredibly stupid and ignorant stuff, knowing full well you haven't a damned clue what you're talking about, and instead of putting in thought to what you say so that it isn't full of stupid, you keep doing it so that people have to constantly correct you.

You'd know, wouldn't you.  ;)  If you don't find it to be fun, why do you insist on doing it?  You're obviously intentionally writing up the most stupid possible misinterpretation of what people are saying, and you're doing this over and over again to a lot of people.  Your ability to choose to interpret what people say in the worst way possible doesn't make other people stupid no matter how many times you try to assert it.

Everything you say is "it'd be nice if..." then a bunch of crap that would be nice but doesn't work realistically in market.

Right now, Anime companies are marketing to the place that gives them the most money... and that is through dubs, and through TV.

You still seem to not understand this.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 17, 2008, 07:44:21 PMRight now, Anime companies are marketing to the place that gives them the most money... and that is through dubs, and through TV.

OK, then, if it's working, then that's fine.  They're not in trouble, and downloaders aren't making an impact, and we don't have to worry about them.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 17, 2008, 07:50:45 PMOK, then, if it's working, then that's fine.  They're not in trouble, and downloaders aren't making an impact, and we don't have to worry about them.

-_-

Holy crap. Do you honestly believe that business is that simple?

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 17, 2008, 08:07:54 PM-_-

Holy crap. Do you honestly believe that business is that simple?

Do you have any idea why you're posting to this forum?  I'm personally here to have fun, and so are a lot of the other people here.  Even if I did present a full-fledged, realistic business proposal here, it wouldn't help anybody because the people here aren't the people who can implement it.  I was interested to see if anybody here downloads or fansubs, and I was curious how they'd react to various possible plans for the various anime companies to make money off of them.  I was hoping that, if I threw out some fun ideas too (like mDuo and Tony were throwing out fun ideas), they'd maybe speak up and come up with some ideas of their own and tell the forum what they're willing to pay for.  However, your existence means that we'll never know.  They're never going to post because you're just going to be abusive if they even try to say anything isn't worthy of a dissertation.  We're never going to hear their opinions.  Your constant derision stifles interesting conversation.  Just because people here are anime fans rather than doctors, lawyers, MBAs, Japanese teachers, etc. doesn't mean that their input isn't interesting.  Heck, even if they were doctors, lawyers, MBAs, etc., they would probably have better things to do than to write something up so airtight that you aren't going to call them names for it.  If you don't want to hear the opinions of other anime fans, why are you here?

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 17, 2008, 08:31:59 PM
Do you have any idea why you're posting to this forum?  I'm personally here to have fun, and so are a lot of the other people here.  Even if I did present a full-fledged, realistic business proposal here, it wouldn't help anybody because the people here aren't the people who can implement it.  I was interested to see if anybody here downloads or fansubs, and I was curious how they'd react to various possible plans for the various anime companies to make money off of them.  I was hoping that, if I threw out some fun ideas too (like mDuo and Tony were throwing out fun ideas), they'd maybe speak up and come up with some ideas of their own and tell the forum what they're willing to pay for.  However, your existence means that we'll never know.  They're never going to post because you're just going to be abusive if they even try to say anything isn't worthy of a dissertation.  We're never going to hear their opinions.  Your constant derision stifles interesting conversation.  Just because people here are anime fans rather than doctors, lawyers, MBAs, Japanese teachers, etc. doesn't mean that their input isn't interesting.  Heck, even if they were doctors, lawyers, MBAs, etc., they would probably have better things to do than to write something up so airtight that you aren't going to call them names for it.  If you don't want to hear the opinions of other anime fans, why are you here?

Why does everyone pull the "You're being abusive" card so quickly? I've just been reading along here, a good back and forth argument, and all of a sudden a post that has nothing to do with the talk appears.

The reason I'm not posting Nyxyin has nothing to do with Pyron (I'm a fansubber, editor of subtitles, and did some research about the anime industry a couple of years ago). I just don't care enough to break down the arguments and cite resources when the debate gets to this length.

Ad hominem is never the answer.

~Chun

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 17, 2008, 08:31:59 PMDo you have any idea why you're posting to this forum?

In this forum? Because I've been going to fanime for a looooooooooooong time, and know a good amount of the staff members. I was ASKED TO join this forum by specific staff members to help out with things since they knew I was knowledgable about most of the subjects.

Why I'm posting in this thread specifically?

I hate when people say incredibly stupid things about a subject matter that they supposedly care about.

QuoteI'm personally here to have fun, and so are a lot of the other people here.

You can have fun without saying incredibly stupid things... can't you?

QuoteEven if I did present a full-fledged, realistic business proposal here, it wouldn't help anybody because the people here aren't the people who can implement it.  I was interested to see if anybody here downloads or fansubs, and I was curious how they'd react to various possible plans for the various anime companies to make money off of them.

You don't need a full-fledged business proposal. Your ideas just need to REALISTICALLY MAKE SENSE, which yours do not. You jump to major conclusion based on one fact, and that doesn't work. You make horrible assumptions, based on one fact, and again... that doesn't work.

QuoteI was hoping that, if I threw out some fun ideas too (like mDuo and Tony were throwing out fun ideas), they'd maybe speak up and come up with some ideas of their own and tell the forum what they're willing to pay for.  However, your existence means that we'll never know.  They're never going to post because you're just going to be abusive if they even try to say anything isn't worthy of a dissertation.  We're never going to hear their opinions.  Your constant derision stifles interesting conversation.  Just because people here are anime fans rather than doctors, lawyers, MBAs, Japanese teachers, etc. doesn't mean that their input isn't interesting.  Heck, even if they were doctors, lawyers, MBAs, etc., they would probably have better things to do than to write something up so airtight that you aren't going to call them names for it.  If you don't want to hear the opinions of other anime fans, why are you here?

Ideas can come from anyone, intelligent or worthwhile ideas come with thought and reasoning. I'm not abusive just because I say an idea that won't work... won't work. You see, if I say your idea won't work, it's your job to prove that it will, this is called discussion and progression. You are trying to present your idea, and try to prove and show how your idea is good. It's fun to bring up and discuss something with actual points of logic, so that more discussion can occur because of it. A good idea, brings birth to more good ideas, and option weighing of these different ideas as to which will work, which will not, which parts of an idea will work, and which can be intergrated together with others' ideas to make a solid reasonable plan.

But this all starts with making logical and thoughtful ideas and to push them, and to work out the logical kinks. You don't need to incorporate every single detail to make sure a plan is flawless before you progress, but the basics need to be covered. The major points of understanding have to be there. You are not presenting these MAJOR points, and IGNORING THEM. That's no longer a fun game of presenting ideas, it becomes people presenting a bunch of idiotic thoughts that they don't even think through before saying them.

It's the equivalent of...

"Anime companies should make more money... that way they wouldn't be doing bad. Maybe they can higher slaves to do work that way they don't use as much money in production."

That's the equivalent of what you're saying. Your statements ignore so many important basics, that the idea you propose is so perposperous that it's not even worth really looking into. But for some god damned reason I sit there and explain to you how your idea won't work regardless, because I guess I'm that stupid.

Quote from: Chun on February 18, 2008, 03:40:37 AMWhy does everyone pull the "You're being abusive" card so quickly? I've just been reading along here, a good back and forth argument, and all of a sudden a post that has nothing to do with the talk appears.

Riddling posts with words like "stupid" and "crap" isn't abusive?  He asked me why I'm posting here first.

QuoteThe reason I'm not posting Nyxyin has nothing to do with Pyron (I'm a fansubber, editor of subtitles, and did some research about the anime industry a couple of years ago). I just don't care enough to break down the arguments and cite resources when the debate gets to this length.

But that's what I'm saying.  Not all discussions need to cite resources and have lengthy debates.  That's not what I wanted.  Whether the plan is realistic or not, wouldn't you find it cool if the companies would give fansubbers "Please add these commercials to your fansubs" letters instead of "please cease and desist" letters during production time?  We watch anime, after all.  Just because they have unrealistically big and expressive eyes or are set in unrealistic worlds and situations doesn't make them stupid.

Yes, I admit that the reality is that Cartoon Network probably attracts the majority of viewers.  (I didn't initially mean to say otherwise.)  The reality is also that some people are just going to download no matter how much they are discouraged from doing so.  There just isn't that much to say about realistic arguments.  I thought that reality was covered before I ever came into the thread.  So, I figured I'd try to start from a few outside-the-box angles.  If fansubbers are really in it for ego and rebellion, then brainstorming on whether companies can use fansubbers wouldn't be interesting.  But, if fansubbers would find it cool to help companies during the pre-production process, maybe by following that line, we would accidentally run into something that wasn't so unrealistic.  But that conversation can't take place if people are calling it "crap" and "stupid".

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 18, 2008, 07:58:12 AMI was ASKED TO join this forum by specific staff members to help out with things since they knew I was knowledgeable about most of the subjects.

And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

QuoteWhy I'm posting in this thread specifically?
I hate when people say incredibly stupid things about a subject matter that they supposedly care about.

Great inventions have originated from people who started out dreaming of what other people called "stupid".  Anime itself was called "stupid" by a whole lot of people when it first started out.

QuoteYour ideas just need to REALISTICALLY MAKE SENSE, which yours do not.

*sigh*  At first, I was supporting mDuo's idea.  Then, I thought up a logic trick that I thought was rather cute and entertaining, but people jumped all over that and thought I was seriously suggesting removing dubs.  I think it says bad things about a forum about entertainment that people immediately took it as a realistic suggestion and couldn't just laugh.

QuoteYou jump to major conclusion based on one fact, and that doesn't work. You make horrible assumptions, based on one fact, and again... that doesn't work.

OK, I admit that dubs are a major part of the market.  I had asked if we still cared about the 40K fansub downloaders anyways.  The answer was yes.  If we care about the 40K downloaders, then let's talk about those 40K fansub downloaders.  If you didn't notice, making commercials and extras to splice into fansubs would require that the companies keep their dub studios, so I did tacitly agree that we're not going to remove dubs.  I was throwing out ideas that might lead to getting additional money from the 40K without taking out the dubs.  I'm sorry I didn't explicitly spell it earlier out, but I didn't think I needed to.

Quoteit becomes people presenting a bunch of idiotic thoughts that they don't even think through before saying them.

Not all ideas spring out fully formed.  Just because an idea isn't fully formed doesn't mean it's stupid or that the whole thing needs to be thrown out.  Discussion can also be improvement and refinement.  Fansubbers donate a lot of time for whatever reason.  Why do they do it, and can American anime companies make money off of it?  Do they have enough pull over their downloaders to help American anime companies make more money?

Quote"Anime companies should make more money... that way they wouldn't be doing bad. Maybe they can hire slaves to do work that way they don't use as much money in production."

That's the equivalent of what you're saying.

Assuming that anime companies are doing poorly, they should try to make more money.  There is already a lot of free labor being applied to anime, and people are accusing that free labor of hurting the anime companies.  Is there any way the anime companies can take advantage of that free labor rather than just calling it illegal, and if not, why not?

Apparently, the authorities took one of the Asian pirate companies and turned it into a properly-licensed company that helped reduce piracy in Asia.  What happened with that?  Can there be parallels drawn here?

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 18, 2008, 11:01:08 AM
But that's what I'm saying.  Not all discussions need to cite resources and have lengthy debates.  That's not what I wanted.  Whether the plan is realistic or not, wouldn't you find it cool if the companies would give fansubbers "Please add these commercials to your fansubs" letters instead of "please cease and desist" letters during production time?  We watch anime, after all.  Just because they have unrealistically big and expressive eyes or are set in unrealistic worlds and situations doesn't make them stupid.

Yes, it would be nice, in a perfect world where there's control over fansub groups and companies backing them up and no one in the world downloaded them until they decided it was good enough to be put on DVD.

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely mad.

The fact that a fansubbing group exists is detrimental to the economy, and no company really enjoys dealing with the groups out there (SEE: Anime-Junkies egotrip a few years back). Even though my group stopped a project as soon as the series was licensed (Or did work that we couldn't see being licensed), in the end the waves of people between released constantly pestering us to finish the series probably far overlooked the fact that we were subbing this out of fun, not for profit. That's what it boils down to; fansubbers like myself are not mysterious creatures as you put it; it's a fact we try to bring material over that has a possibility of being licensed, or just for the fun of it. The bottom line is simple:

Fansubs are, contrary to popular belief, illegal (In the least sense). Though the subs happen before the DVD release, the internet is no longer a convenient place where everyone has good intentions and stops distribution right before DVD licensing, and buys the copy to support the original creators rather than storing it on their hard drives or burning them off to DVD-Rs.

Seeing how this thread is approaching a non-constructive direction, I'm calling it quits here.

~Chun

Quote from: Chun on February 18, 2008, 03:32:59 PMSeeing how this thread is approaching a non-constructive direction, I'm calling it quits here.

Really? I'm pretty sure the thread (like most) was non-constructive to begin with.

Quote from: Chun on February 18, 2008, 03:32:59 PMThe fact that a fansubbing group exists is detrimental to the economy

Then why do you do it?

Quoteand no company really enjoys dealing with the groups out there (SEE: Anime-Junkies egotrip a few years back).

And yet I've heard of two cases in which companies did use fansubbers: apparently, the KKnJ fansubber from Foothill Anime had something to do with RightStuf's release, and apparently, SyncPoint used an ex-president of Stanford's anime club (who did fansubs for club showings) for their release of FLCL and Tenshi ni Narumon.  Various companies claim that they were fansubbers to begin with.  AnimeJunkies doesn't represent all the fansub groups.  I believe hearing an outcry among fansub groups strongly disagreeing with and deriding AnimeJunkie's behavior, and I haven't heard of them since then.  How many people still support AnimeJunkies?  How much more support could they have had if they didn't go off the deep end?

QuoteEven though my group stopped a project as soon as the series was licensed (Or did work that we couldn't see being licensed), in the end the waves of people between released constantly pestering us to finish the series probably far overlooked the fact that we were subbing this out of fun, not for profit.

It's a normal problem for people to underestimate the silent majority.  We were using 40K as a reasonable number of people that download a fansub series from a reputable group which stops upon licensing announcement.  If even a mere 1% of these people pester for completion, the reputable fansub group still sees 400 whiners.  That's a depressingly large number of complaints.  However, what the group forgets is that there were 39,600 other fans that were downloading the series but simply accepted it and didn't say anything.  It would've been nice if they said, "Yay!  It's licensed!  Now I can get real DVDs!", but they're not going to feel like saying it because now they have to wait two years for the commercial companies to catch up to the point where the fansubs were.  Whatever goodwill the fansubbers created towards the series in a large part becomes cooled off by a licensing announcement.  The momentum stops.  Why can't there be a way to convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead?

QuoteFansubs are, contrary to popular belief, illegal

I know fansubs are illegal, but I don't think that's contrary to popular belief.  I think most people who infringe copyrights understand that it's technically illegal.  But speeding is also illegal, and we know for sure that all drivers understand that speeding is illegal because we all have to take a test demonstrating that we know that the law before we are allowed to drive.  It still doesn't stop people from speeding.  Traffic violations being illegal doesn't stop the government from a making money off of speeders either.  When I went to jury duty, one of the screening questions was whether people had run-ins with the law, and everybody in the room (including the judge) had received a traffic ticket before.  With the computers in cars these days, it shouldn't be that hard to prevent a car from going above 65MPH for any length of time, but they just don't do it.  Nobody would buy it anyways, but it's also interesting that consumers insist on a feature that breaks the law.  In economics, legality is only one of many factors.  Automated camera enforcement don't actually stop speeding, but it does make it more efficient to issue speeding tickets.  Can there also be some compromise for fansubs (and all digital material in general)?

Quote from: mDuo13 on February 18, 2008, 04:18:43 PM

Quote from: Chun on February 18, 2008, 03:32:59 PMSeeing how this thread is approaching a non-constructive direction, I'm calling it quits here.

Really? I'm pretty sure the thread (like most) was non-constructive to begin with.

LOL!  That's what I thought, but I wasn't going to be the one to post it.  ;)

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 18, 2008, 11:47:52 AM
And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Should I point out, that a whole 2 chairs even look at the forum, one barely cares and only posts because of major issues, and the other one is Tony. (In case you don't see my point, the ones that asked me to post on this forum weren't those 2).

QuoteGreat inventions have originated from people who started out dreaming of what other people called "stupid".  Anime itself was called "stupid" by a whole lot of people when it first started out.

Those "stupid" inventions had a very strong base that seemed unrealistic, not stupid ideas that went against logic. Yours go against logic.

Quote*sigh*  At first, I was supporting mDuo's idea.  Then, I thought up a logic trick that I thought was rather cute and entertaining, but people jumped all over that and thought I was seriously suggesting removing dubs.  I think it says bad things about a forum about entertainment that people immediately took it as a realistic suggestion and couldn't just laugh.

Because this thread originally was a series thread, with real points, and reasoning. A thread that was presenting the actual standing on the state of the industry, knowledge and actual production. Just because you thought it should turn into "LOL LET'S BE STUPID!" doesn't mean that's what the thread was... until you tried to turn it into that.

QuoteOK, I admit that dubs are a major part of the market.  I had asked if we still cared about the 40K fansub downloaders anyways.  The answer was yes.  If we care about the 40K downloaders, then let's talk about those 40K fansub downloaders.  If you didn't notice, making commercials and extras to splice into fansubs would require that the companies keep their dub studios, so I did tacitly agree that we're not going to remove dubs.  I was throwing out ideas that might lead to getting additional money from the 40K without taking out the dubs.  I'm sorry I didn't explicitly spell it earlier out, but I didn't think I needed to.

Throwing out ideas, that are both illegal, and problematic. That realistically would not work, and cause far more problems and issues than would help.

QuoteNot all ideas spring out fully formed.  Just because an idea isn't fully formed doesn't mean it's stupid or that the whole thing needs to be thrown out.  Discussion can also be improvement and refinement.  Fansubbers donate a lot of time for whatever reason.  Why do they do it, and can American anime companies make money off of it?  Do they have enough pull over their downloaders to help American anime companies make more money?

Obviously not all ideas start out fully formed. I even said this. The major point is... that the idea isn't completely stupid. The idea doesn't already contain contradictions within itself, and doesn't cause a whole crap load of problems.

QuoteAssuming that anime companies are doing poorly, they should try to make more money.  There is already a lot of free labor being applied to anime, and people are accusing that free labor of hurting the anime companies.  Is there any way the anime companies can take advantage of that free labor rather than just calling it illegal, and if not, why not?

Apparently, the authorities took one of the Asian pirate companies and turned it into a properly-licensed company that helped reduce piracy in Asia.  What happened with that?  Can there be parallels drawn here?

Because IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

QuoteAnd yet I've heard of two cases in which companies did use fansubbers: apparently, the KKnJ fansubber from Foothill Anime had something to do with RightStuf's release, and apparently, SyncPoint used an ex-president of Stanford's anime club (who did fansubs for club showings) for their release of FLCL and Tenshi ni Narumon.  Various companies claim that they were fansubbers to begin with.  AnimeJunkies doesn't represent all the fansub groups.  I believe hearing an outcry among fansub groups strongly disagreeing with and deriding AnimeJunkie's behavior, and I haven't heard of them since then.  How many people still support AnimeJunkies?  How much more support could they have had if they didn't go off the deep end?

Using fansubbers in legal ways. They hired people that were fansubbers, and had them due legal work within the company due to knowledge of the product and skills. It's the same idea of hiring a criminal in the past to prevent crimes and to catch criminals in the future. Because they know how it works, because they are skilled, they can use their skills to be productive... legally. There's such a huge difference there.

QuoteIt's a normal problem for people to underestimate the silent majority.  We were using 40K as a reasonable number of people that download a fansub series from a reputable group which stops upon licensing announcement.  If even a mere 1% of these people pester for completion, the reputable fansub group still sees 400 whiners.  That's a depressingly large number of complaints.  However, what the group forgets is that there were 39,600 other fans that were downloading the series but simply accepted it and didn't say anything.  It would've been nice if they said, "Yay!  It's licensed!  Now I can get real DVDs!", but they're not going to feel like saying it because now they have to wait two years for the commercial companies to catch up to the point where the fansubs were.  Whatever goodwill the fansubbers created towards the series in a large part becomes cooled off by a licensing announcement.  The momentum stops.  Why can't there be a way to convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead?

More contradictions in what you say. 39,600 people that accepted it, but didn't like it. PS... those numbers are for a LICENSED SERIES IN THE US. That number was pulled off of the latest episode of Bleach. Why can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL. Good will doesn't mean crap. If I punch a rich guy and steal money for him, and give it to a poor kid, I'm still commiting crimes, and there's no way to justify that. "Oh but I gave it to someone that needed it officer, I was doing the world a favor!".

QuoteI know fansubs are illegal, but I don't think that's contrary to popular belief.  I think most people who infringe copyrights understand that it's technically illegal.  But speeding is also illegal, and we know for sure that all drivers understand that speeding is illegal because we all have to take a test demonstrating that we know that the law before we are allowed to drive.  It still doesn't stop people from speeding.  Traffic violations being illegal doesn't stop the government from a making money off of speeders either.  When I went to jury duty, one of the screening questions was whether people had run-ins with the law, and everybody in the room (including the judge) had received a traffic ticket before.  With the computers in cars these days, it shouldn't be that hard to prevent a car from going above 65MPH for any length of time, but they just don't do it.  Nobody would buy it anyways, but it's also interesting that consumers insist on a feature that breaks the law.  In economics, legality is only one of many factors.  Automated camera enforcement don't actually stop speeding, but it does make it more efficient to issue speeding tickets.  Can there also be some compromise for fansubs (and all digital material in general)?

Ugh... why do you use the WORST POSSIBLE EXAMPLES? People know fansubs are illegal, why do they do it? Because they feel that they won't get caught, and because THEY will not feel the immediate consequences for it. Why do speeders speed? Because they think they won't be caught. Why is speeding illegal? Because it's dangerous. Do I really have to explain physics, control, and how a car is affected when it's going faster? The comparison doesn't make sense, because it goes to the gov't who is upholding the law. Here's how it would work in this example. How would companies make money in the same way the government does in your example?

IF COMPANIES SUED THE FANSUBBERS FOR DAMAGES. Now here's the hardpart. How does a company go about doing this, how much will it cost, and who do they sue? It's hard to prove things, it's hard to put things in action, and it's even harder and time consuming for it all to go through. Do you know why cars don't have limiters that let them go over 65? Because that would cause a lot of problems like... disallowing legalized racing, speed limits vary according to where you are, amongst hundreds of millions of other things. Once more... do you even ATTEMPT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY BEFORE YOU SAY IT?!?!?!?!?!?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL we should illegalize knives, that way, there will be no stabbings! We should illegalize cars! That will prevent car accidents! We should illegalize everything, and people shouldn't be allowed outside, that way people won't get hurt!

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 18, 2008, 08:01:55 PM

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 18, 2008, 11:47:52 AM
And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Should I point out, that a whole 2 chairs even look at the forum, one barely cares and only posts because of major issues, and the other one is Tony. (In case you don't see my point, the ones that asked me to post on this forum weren't those 2).

Hey hey hey. Let's get things straight - I only barely care, too.  ;D

I guess I shouldn't be hanging around this sandbox, but every once in a while, it's fun to play around. I'm saying that this thread could have a point. Or maybe that's just my unending optimism...

Anyway, as Pyron said in many more words, fansub groups and industry can't get in bed. There's a little logic issue for you! - for them to work together, the fansub groups can't actually do any subs; they'd have to stop, and hence lose a lot of their usefulness (and their name - as fans that sub), in order to do so.

(The only way I can see industry using using fansub groups to its advantage is to completely rip off the fansubber's translations. Except, of course, but it'd be poor quality and probably illegal... but the idea would be pretty funny.  ;D)

The thing could come full circle, though. Industry topples, fansubs come into prominence, the good ones go legit and make enough money to get back to where we are now. That's the default/omniscient market/capitalism scenario.

Quote from: Tony on February 18, 2008, 08:49:51 PMI guess I shouldn't be hanging around this sandbox, but every once in a while, it's fun to play around.

Why do you say that you shouldn't be playing here?  (Does that apply to me too?)  I think it's good that you play.  I think it helps give the feel that Fanime really is "by fans, for fans" rather than having aloof authority figures that come in only to Give Official Word or Hand Down the Law.

QuoteAnyway, as Pyron said in many more words, fansub groups and industry can't get in bed. There's a little logic issue for you! - for them to work together, the fansub groups can't actually do any subs; they'd have to stop, and hence lose a lot of their usefulness (and their name - as fans that sub), in order to do so.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point.  Technically, fansubbers just can't distro.  I believe there shouldn't be anything technically illegal about creating a list of text translations.  Maybe partnered Japanese/American companies can present a web site with pictureboards and Japanese audio track or Japanese text while letting fansub groups race to subtitle.  Maybe they can sell a subscription for the audience to preview the fansub races or sell ads on the site where the races are held.  Maybe it can be a vehicle for teaching Japanese and explaining localization decisions too.  Maybe it can help provide material for "translator notes".  This idea doesn't give anything for the fansub timers and encoders to do, but the fansub translators and editors can be kept busy on a series even after the licensing announcement, and the audience would have something to do and something to see while they wait for DVD production.

QuoteThe thing could come full circle, though. Industry topples, fansubs come into prominence, the good ones go legit and make enough money to get back to where we are now. That's the default/omniscient market/capitalism scenario.

Probably.  Every industry seems to revisit copyright infringement debates with every new technology, so that keeps going in circles too.

GAH!! My brain f***in hurts reading all these essays!!

On topic:  I want to hear that original poster has to respond to all this.

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 18, 2008, 08:01:55 PM

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 18, 2008, 11:47:52 AM
And yet, the first time I ran into you here, your own account was banned, and you had to post from your girlfriend's account.  In spite of all your knowledge and the staff's invitation, the staff still saw it fit to ban you for a while, and you wanted to post even while you were uninvited.

Should I point out, that a whole 2 chairs even look at the forum, one barely cares and only posts because of major issues, and the other one is Tony. (In case you don't see my point, the ones that asked me to post on this forum weren't those 2).

I don't see how that's related.  I asked why do you post, and you said it's because you were invited.  Then I pointed out that you kept posting even when you were uninvited.  So, if your reason for posting was because you were invited, I was curious why you kept posting even when you were uninvited.

QuoteBecause this thread originally was a serious thread, with real points, and reasoning.

Before I posted, you had already said, "Bottomline: downloads are illegal, and you shouldn't do it."  It sounded reasonable to me, and it sounded like the serious part of the thread was simply finished there.

QuoteBecause this thread originally was a series thread, with real points, and reasoning. A thread that was presenting the actual standing on the state of the industry, knowledge and actual production. Just because you thought it should turn into "LOL LET'S BE STUPID!" doesn't mean that's what the thread was... until you tried to turn it into that.

You yourself said that the thread was already full of misinformation, starting with the very first post.

QuoteThrowing out ideas, that are both illegal, and problematic. That realistically would not work, and cause far more problems and issues than would help.

That's what some people said about the idea of women voting.

QuoteBecause IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

QuoteUsing fansubbers in legal ways. They hired people that were fansubbers, and had them due legal work within the company due to knowledge of the product and skills. It's the same idea of hiring a criminal in the past to prevent crimes and to catch criminals in the future. Because they know how it works, because they are skilled, they can use their skills to be productive... legally. There's such a huge difference there.

If they talk to the Japanese companies and get permission, it's no longer illegal.  I don't see how that's a huge difference.  It's still legitimizing and capitalizing on what was previously illegal.

QuoteMore contradictions in what you say. 39,600 people that accepted it, but didn't like it. PS... those numbers are for a LICENSED SERIES IN THE US.

I checked numbers on scarywater.  The numbers for some unlicensed series aren't that far off.

QuoteThat number was pulled off of the latest episode of Bleach. Why can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL.

Legality is only one of many possible factors in economics.  If people get stuck on things being illegal, there are many potentially good ideas that get overlooked.

QuoteGood will doesn't mean crap. If I punch a rich guy and steal money for him, and give it to a poor kid, I'm still commiting crimes, and there's no way to justify that. "Oh but I gave it to someone that needed it officer, I was doing the world a favor!".

Robin Hood sold lots of books and movies.  Even Martha Stewart sold books and TV shows and such after getting out of jail.  Goodwill can translate to money even when people are committing crimes.

QuotePeople know fansubs are illegal, why do they do it? Because they feel that they won't get caught, and because THEY will not feel the immediate consequences for it. Why do speeders speed? Because they think they won't be caught. Why is speeding illegal? Because it's dangerous. {...} Do you know why cars don't have limiters that let them go over 65? Because that would cause a lot of problems like... disallowing legalized racing, speed limits vary according to where you are, amongst hundreds of millions of other things.

Race cars aren't street legal.  Why not limit the ability to go fast to cars that can't drive in legal traffic?  It'd probably be a software limiter that can only be changed by a mechanic (the way people aren't supposed to be able to turn back their odometers).  It'd be neat if the roads sent wireless signals telling the cars what the speed limit is, and the cars just will not go faster than that for more than a minute.  It can technologically be done eventually, but it'd be expensive and take a lot of time, and nobody would fund it even if it were proposed.

QuoteLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL we should illegalize knives, that way, there will be no stabbings!

If it were technologically easy to create knives that will cut meat without cutting humans, why not make it illegal for the average civilian to have human-cutting knives?  Just like cars with certain racing features cannot be legally used on normal roads during normal traffic hours, knives that can cut people cannot be used in normal homes or sold to normal consumers.  If it were possible to create a knife that will cut meat but not humans, I don't see what's wrong with requiring a surgeon license to buy a human-cutting knife.

But this has very little to do with anime.  It's just that things being illegal doesn't stop being people doing them.  Besides, laws can get overturned and worked around.

Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 18, 2008, 10:21:01 PMOn topic:  I want to hear that original poster has to respond to all this.

It was a post and run.  The original poster created an account, posted two messages somewhat related to Atsuicon, and then never came back.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 19, 2008, 02:13:37 AM

Quote from: OniCourseMusha on February 18, 2008, 10:21:01 PMOn topic:  I want to hear that original poster has to respond to all this.

It was a post and run.  The original poster created an account, posted two messages somewhat related to Atsuicon, and then never came back.

damn it what a waste!!  This is why I hate people who just create account post very few things and to be never be heard back.  Watever!  He was trying to convince us to support the industry but its pretty pointless or not enough when you have try to convince millions of people who download anime in my opinion.

Quote from: Chun on February 13, 2008, 10:38:41 PMNowhere in those links does is state Japan's Anime market is "Dying".

In fact, the links seem to say that the Japanese anime market is still growing: "The animeanime.jp news website reported that Japanese anime DVD sales rose from 82.4 billion yen (about US$771 million) in 2003 to 95 billion yen (about US$890 million) in 2006. Over 2,000 Japanese anime DVDs were released in 2006."

Also, http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2007/nyaf-icv2/icv2/whitepaper says, "sales of anime DVDs (not box office takes of anime shown in theaters or any revenue from the broadcast of anime on television) actually decreased from US$550 million in 2003 to US$400 million for last year.  Sell-through numbers for other years were US$450 million in 2005 and US$500 million in 2004 and 2002."  That is...

2002 $500M
2003 $550M
2004 $500M
2005 $450M
2006 $400M

So, the peak was in 2003.  I think it's interesting that they excluded theater and TV numbers.  I also think it's interesting that the ADV cable channel was announced in 2002.  According to http://www.advfilms.com/about-anime-network.aspx "Anime Network's current distribution has grown from zero to 40,000,000+ households and the network reaches over 94% of all digital households in North America through affiliate partners."  That's a lot of households that are getting anime on TV without having to go to buy DVDs now.  If each of those households moved only a average of $2/year from DVD purchases to pay per view anime purchases instead, that would make up for the difference.  Another interesting that was said is "fans demand the kind of season-set pricing that is now commonplace for American television series".  Well, if they want to sell it to an American TV show audience, it seems reasonable that they should expect the consumers to demand American TV show prices.  I paid $35 for the Battlestar Galactica season one 5 disk thinpak.  I paid $90 for my KKnJ 5 disk box set, and I was so happy to get it at such a bargain that I bought a second set...

So, I don't understand why they're blaming the downloaders when they're not counting TV numbers.  The anime on TV has gone up a lot since 2003.  To accuse the 40K downloaders of being responsible for a $50M/year decline, people would have to expect each downloader to buy $1250 of DVDs every year.  I might spend that much personally, but I doubt the people who are downloading can afford it.  It seems more realistic that those 40M households with Anime Network moved an average of less than $2/year to pay per view anime instead of spending it on DVDs.  Besides, there are many other legal ways to get anime without buying DVDs.  I know a friend that rents all his anime from NetFlix and another that uses the local video rental place.  Because they've spent money on rentals, and because renting is completely legal, they completely feel like they've done their part to support the anime industry, and they never actually buy any DVDs, so they don't show up in anime DVD sales figures.  Libraries are carrying quite a lot of anime, anime clubs are building anime lending libraries, and people are coming up with anime DVD trading sites as well.  All this is considered to be fully legal, and things like this are bound to happen more as anime gets more popular.  Until 2003, it's possible that these alternatives weren't widely available yet.  It might've been harder to get anime DVDs on NetFlix or at the local video store because anime just didn't have enough market penetration.  In 2003, there was no AZN TV, no AniMonday, and no Funimation channel.  There are a lot more legal ways to get anime without buying the DVDs now.  I'm not sure I see any proof that the downloaders are responsible for the decline.

If the American anime companies want to try to capitalize on them, that's great.  Merely saying that downloading is illegal and people shouldn't do it doesn't solve the problem.  There are a lot of still-legal alternatives that will get them access to anime without buying any DVDs.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 18, 2008, 11:46:00 PM

QuoteThrowing out ideas, that are both illegal, and problematic. That realistically would not work, and cause far more problems and issues than would help.

That's what some people said about the idea of women voting.

Okay, since it's mostly you and Pyron's discussion, I'll leave him to respond to the entire post... that, and I'm lazy. But WHAT IS WITH your series of ridiculous analogies and comparisons that don't even apply or make sense?! Now you're comparing your idea to a revolutionary idea of allowing women to vote... but here's the thing; there's a difference between going against sexist bias, and going against logic.

Quote

QuoteBecause IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

See, ideas like these... you might have the intention of regulating law, but you'd lose profit and the industry wouldn't make this move. Part of your demographic of people purchasing anime on DVD are those who have followed subs and want to support the series/studio. If this were allowed, they'd either wouldn't touch it and buy a physical copy, since... why would anyone pay for subs from the same source if it's provided for free? Or they'd just download the subs and have that as their support, no longer feeling the need to purchase DVDs and supporting them for less. Either way, the industry loses money.

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 19, 2008, 08:11:22 AMhere's the thing; there's a difference between going against sexist bias, and going against logic.

That is true, but nobody has explained why they think I'm going against logic.  Logic is merely a path.  Logic itself doesn't actually say or mean anything by itself.  Logic merely says that certain results can follow from certain assumptions and other results cannot.  I can always find a piece of perfect logic that says what I want it to say as long as I change the assumptions around, so saying that I'm going against logic doesn't get anywhere.  If the assumptions are wrong, then it doesn't matter how perfect the logic is, the results are still wrong.  Logic says things like "if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C."  So, if the assumptions are "women aren't intelligent enough to understand politics" and "people who can't understand politics shouldn't vote", then it is completely logical to say that women shouldn't vote.  The idea that women shouldn't vote doesn't necessarily go against logic itself; it goes against sexist assumptions.

Likewise, my ideas are logical given the set of assumptions I'm using.  If the American anime companies want to make more money, and if they think the downloaders are a problem, then logic says that it makes sense to come up with ways to convince the downloaders to pay the companies money.

Quote from: PyronIkariWhy can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL.

This was what I was responding to.  It's obvious that the general idea of converting goodwill and momentum to dollars just isn't illegal.  Therefore, he has some assumption about a specific case in mind that he didn't mention, but I have to logically assume he's talking only about illegal ways to convert goodwill and momentum.  And, whatever illegal ways he's thinking about can be made legal by getting permission.  Therefore, the idea that it's currently illegal shouldn't stop people from brainstorming about how to convert goodwill and momentum to dollars.  I'm personally not attached to any one idea.  I'm just brainstorming.  However, the way Pyron is responding, it sounds like he thinks it's illegal and wrong to even brainstorm about how to convert downloaders to paying customers, and people keep talking as if they never read past my first idea.  I've already dropped the idea that they can cut expenses by removing the dub studios (and I wasn't even serious about that one in the first place), but people kept harping on it even after I've moved on.

Quote

Quote

QuoteBecause IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

See, ideas like these... you might have the intention of regulating law, but you'd lose profit and the industry wouldn't make this move.

Ideas like what?  (And what does "regulating law" mean?)  Pyron wasn't targeting any specific idea there.  He had written that "converting goodwill and momentum to dollars" is illegal, and that's very clearly not the case.  He didn't say what he wanted to say, so I'm not sure what he wanted to say there.  But whatever he wanted to say, something being illegal shouldn't at all be a hurdle or a reason to not consider it because getting over the illegal hurdle can be done by getting permission from the Japanese company.  Now, if he had said that allowing fansubs to be distributed at all after licensing would lose the company money (which seems to be what you're saying?) instead of saying that converting goodwill and momentum to dollars is illegal, then the response would've been different.  But that's not what he said.

One of the problems with just rejecting or ignoring everything that's illegal is that people don't get any information about how many dollars are actually lost (or gained) through illegal activity.  Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's necessarily morally bad, depending on what moral code people believe in.  What Robin Hood did was very clearly illegal, but there are quite a few people who don't believe that he was morally bad.  The American Revolution was illegal too, but we are still taught to admire our country's forefathers for it.  The idea that those who participate in illegal activities only do it because they want to be bad and don't think they'll get caught is going to be wrong in some percentage of the cases.  If someone is speeding to and from work twice a day for 200 days per year for years on end, the probability is actually very, very high that they'll get caught eventually.  And they're definitely not speeding because they want to endanger people.  They just want to be more productive.  And the economics work out: if it's a few hundred dollars for traffic school, and if they think they'll only get caught once a year, but those extra minutes in the office means that they get a few thousand dollars per year of extra pay increase, then economically, it makes logical sense to speed.  The government can change the economics by making speeding tickets result in a higher penalty, and some percent of speeders will show down.  They can change people's perception of the odds by putting out more or fewer cops or by using more or fewer photo enforcement devices.  The fact that speeding is illegal isn't the end of the conversation, just like saying that "downloading is illegal, so people just shouldn't do it" isn't the be-all end-all of the downloading question.  It's only the beginning of a different conversation since playing with other variables can still be fun and interesting.

QuotePart of your demographic of people purchasing anime on DVD are those who have followed subs and want to support the series/studio. If this were allowed, they'd either wouldn't touch it and buy a physical copy, since... why would anyone pay for subs from the same source if it's provided for free? Or they'd just download the subs and have that as their support, no longer feeling the need to purchase DVDs and supporting them for less. Either way, the industry loses money.

Thanks.  That sounds like progress.  I'd love to write an intelligent response here, but I can't because I personally tried to throw several ideas out there, and there were other ideas thrown in too.  Which one of the ideas specifically are you talking about, and what details of implementation are you using?

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 19, 2008, 02:55:38 PM

Quote from: Jun-Watarase on February 19, 2008, 08:11:22 AMhere's the thing; there's a difference between going against sexist bias, and going against logic.

That is true, but nobody has explained why they think I'm going against logic.  Logic is merely a path.  Logic itself doesn't actually say or mean anything by itself.  Logic merely says that certain results can follow from certain assumptions and other results cannot.  I can always find a piece of perfect logic that says what I want it to say as long as I change the assumptions around, so saying that I'm going against logic doesn't get anywhere.  If the assumptions are wrong, then it doesn't matter how perfect the logic is, the results are still wrong.  Logic says things like "if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C."  So, if the assumptions are "women aren't intelligent enough to understand politics" and "people who can't understand politics shouldn't vote", then it is completely logical to say that women shouldn't vote.  The idea that women shouldn't vote doesn't necessarily go against logic itself; it goes against sexist assumptions.

By then, there WERE women who understood politics and wanted equal rights to vote. The logic against that idea wasn't based on fact-- just bias that women were inferior and didn't deserve that sort of equality... which doesn't apply whatsoever. But anyways, when anyone refers to logic, I think they mean "logic without stupid assumptions". So far, the ideas that you've presented are inefficient and problematic, where the industry could potentially lose money... but at the same time, wouldn't be dumb enough to even make those moves.

QuoteLikewise, my ideas are logical given the set of assumptions I'm using.  If the American anime companies want to make more money, and if they think the downloaders are a problem, then logic says that it makes sense to come up with ways to convince the downloaders to pay the companies money.

I'll be straightforward and say that no one would do this.

Quote

Quote from: PyronIkariWhy can't they convert that goodwill and momentum to dollars instead? BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL.

This was what I was responding to.  It's obvious that the general idea of converting goodwill and momentum to dollars just isn't illegal.  Therefore, he has some assumption about a specific case in mind that he didn't mention, but I have to logically assume he's talking only about illegal ways to convert goodwill and momentum.  And, whatever illegal ways he's thinking about can be made legal by getting permission.  Therefore, the idea that it's currently illegal shouldn't stop people from brainstorming about how to convert goodwill and momentum to dollars.  I'm personally not attached to any one idea.  I'm just brainstorming.  However, the way Pyron is responding, it sounds like he thinks it's illegal and wrong to even brainstorm about how to convert downloaders to paying customers, and people keep talking as if they never read past my first idea.  I've already dropped the idea that they can cut expenses by removing the dub studios (and I wasn't even serious about that one in the first place), but people kept harping on it even after I've moved on.

But why would anyone do this? You're just trying to make what's illegal, legal... of which would do nothing but lose people money and waste people's time, and possibly be promoting illegal downloading anyway. As for your brainstorming, it's not that anyone was stuck on your first idea-- it's that each one that you present here is just as ridiculous and inefficient. So what do you have? A series of ideas that don't work.

Quote

Quote

QuoteBecause IT'S ILLEGAL. Why would a company purposely do something so incredibly illegal, that it would screw them over?

It's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

QuoteSee, ideas like these... you might have the intention of regulating law, but you'd lose profit and the industry wouldn't make this move.

Ideas like what?  (And what does "regulating law" mean?)  Pyron wasn't targeting any specific idea there.  He had written that "converting goodwill and momentum to dollars" is illegal, and that's very clearly not the case.  He didn't say what he wanted to say, so I'm not sure what he wanted to say there.  But whatever he wanted to say, something being illegal shouldn't at all be a hurdle or a reason to not consider it because getting over the illegal hurdle can be done by getting permission from the Japanese company.  Now, if he had said that allowing fansubs to be distributed at all after licensing would lose the company money (which seems to be what you're saying?) instead of saying that converting goodwill and momentum to dollars is illegal, then the response would've been different.  But that's not what he said.

... -_-

Follow the series of quotes and you get traced back to your idea of having subbers contact Japanese companies to have them legally distribute... illegal subs. You're trying to make it legal and it'd supposedly be NO PROBLEM after doing so. Do you honestly need anyone to explain why this wouldn't work? For one, no one would do this, because if they did, both parties would lose money. The subbers and downloaders willing to do this will lose their time and money and the company dumb enough to do this would lose money. Because of that, it'd promote even more pirating since the company is so willing to sign off their media for the public to download, anyway.

But if you meant, have the companies legalize this process and distribute the subs for free, then... I had said before, you're losing money from those who purchase anime (via the legal ways provided now) to support the series and company would either just download the free subs since it'd then be legal, or continue to purchase a physical copy of their DVDs and have the company end up wasting their money with even bothering with subs in the first place.

QuoteOne of the problems with just rejecting or ignoring everything that's illegal is that people don't get any information about how many dollars are actually lost (or gained) through illegal activity.  Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's necessarily morally bad, depending on what moral code people believe in.  What Robin Hood did was very clearly illegal, but there are quite a few people who don't believe that he was morally bad.  The American Revolution was illegal too, but we are still taught to admire our country's forefathers for it.  The idea that those who participate in illegal activities only do it because they want to be bad and don't think they'll get caught is going to be wrong in some percentage of the cases.  If someone is speeding to and from work twice a day for 200 days per year for years on end, the probability is actually very, very high that they'll get caught eventually.  And they're definitely not speeding because they want to endanger people.  They just want to be more productive.  And the economics work out: if it's a few hundred dollars for traffic school, and if they think they'll only get caught once a year, but those extra minutes in the office means that they get a few thousand dollars per year of extra pay increase, then economically, it makes logical sense to speed.  The government can change the economics by making speeding tickets result in a higher penalty, and some percent of speeders will show down.  They can change people's perception of the odds by putting out more or fewer cops or by using more or fewer photo enforcement devices.  The fact that speeding is illegal isn't the end of the conversation, just like saying that "downloading is illegal, so people just shouldn't do it" isn't the be-all end-all of the downloading question.  It's only the beginning of a different conversation since playing with other variables can still be fun and interesting.

Why are you even making these comparisons?!?!?!?!

A person breaking the law by speeding to and fro going to work, it may be illegal, but he's being pushing under the circumstances to do so to... keep his job. Someone speeding to get away from someone shooting at them with the gun is illegal, too, but they're under the circumstances to save their lives. How does this apply to your ideas being illegal and inefficient? They gain nothing and helps no one.

Speeding is illegal because it's hazardous and could risk lives. Pirating is illegal because it's stealing and causes the industry to lose money. They're both illegal, and if they were both made legal, they'd still have the same issues as to why they were illegal in the first place. Speeding, even if legal, would still be dangerous, maybe even more so. Distributing pirated copies of media still loses the industry money, maybe even more so. Okay...? Now what?

Quote

QuotePart of your demographic of people purchasing anime on DVD are those who have followed subs and want to support the series/studio. If this were allowed, they'd either wouldn't touch it and buy a physical copy, since... why would anyone pay for subs from the same source if it's provided for free? Or they'd just download the subs and have that as their support, no longer feeling the need to purchase DVDs and supporting them for less. Either way, the industry loses money.

Thanks.  That sounds like progress.  I'd love to write an intelligent response here, but I can't because I personally tried to throw several ideas out there, and there were other ideas thrown in too.  Which one of the ideas specifically are you talking about, and what details of implementation are you using?

Do I have to trace back quotes for you? It's obvious which idea I was responding to, if you couldn't figure it out. But this time, all you have to do is scroll up within this post.

Anyways, this is only... my 3rd post in this thread. I responded this time because I felt the need to actually say something instead of just *facepalm* in front of my screen. It's clear that it's pointless to respond, and it's a wonder that you've even made Pyron feel like he's wasting his time to respond to your jargon, and he's normally more than happy to correct someone's statements if they're wrong. Several other people have already nicely told you that what you've said so far is ridiculously stupid. People have the right present their ideas and opinions, but you seem to be abusing that right with stupidity and will to waste people's time. To avoid future frustration, I'm withdrawing until the next time I feel the urge to respond when you make another ridiculously idiotic statement (in comparison) and if you want, I'll admit defeat from being irritated to death. kjfkdsjflkadflksd >=|

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 18, 2008, 11:46:00 PM
I don't see how that's related.  I asked why do you post, and you said it's because you were invited.  Then I pointed out that you kept posting even when you were uninvited.  So, if your reason for posting was because you were invited, I was curious why you kept posting even when you were uninvited.

Because I honestly don't care who those two are/were. The one that asked me to post asked me to, and didn't tell me to stop. He also said that I should keep posting. His word, is more important to me than theirs.

QuoteBefore I posted, you had already said, "Bottomline: downloads are illegal, and you shouldn't do it."  It sounded reasonable to me, and it sounded like the serious part of the thread was simply finished there.

But that doesn't change that it was a serious thread. And that doesn't mean you can degrade the thread on your degression. Frankly, it's not your choice to destroy a thread by turning it into a big joke, especially when some people WERE posting legitimately and seriously. And frankly... if it wasn't meant to be taken seriously, you really suck at writing.

QuoteYou yourself said that the thread was already full of misinformation, starting with the very first post.

Yes... misinformation from commonly misinterpereted facts. I corrected him. Because he was just repeating crap he heard from somewhere else that was wrong, and was taking it seriously. I informed him the more truth of the matter. Then you jumped in and acted like an idiot.

QuoteThat's what some people said about the idea of women voting.

That was opinion based and not based on facts and reasoning. Again, you really suck at comparisons. Women voting had no factual proof that it would be bad for the system, it was just the opinion that women are lesser beings and didn't deserve it. So, where's the comparison?

QuoteIt's not illegal if they talk to the Japanese company and get permission.

Are you really stupid? What company would say... "Go ahead, take my media, and give it out for free, distribute it for free, and do whatever you want with it, we don't care... especially since, these people can take these raws, and it can be SENT BACK TO JAPAN TO SCREW US OVER." Idealisitcally it would work out, if a Japanese company was THAT STUPID to allow them to do it. But if a company is that stupid, they deserve to fail.

QuoteUsing fansubbers in legal ways. They hired people that were fansubbers, and had them due legal work within the company due to knowledge of the product and skills. It's the same idea of hiring a criminal in the past to prevent crimes and to catch criminals in the future. Because they know how it works, because they are skilled, they can use their skills to be productive... legally. There's such a huge difference there.

If they talk to the Japanese companies and get permission, it's no longer illegal.  I don't see how that's a huge difference.  It's still legitimizing and capitalizing on what was previously illegal.

... Because it's not capitalizing on what was previously illegal. IT'S STILL ILLEGAL. No company in the world would do it, because it's just asking for funds to be lost. It's promoting people to pirate, and promoting people to download illegally. If they do this, they no longer have any power to stop people from illegally pirating, since they're PROMOTING IT'S USAGE.

QuoteI checked numbers on scarywater.  The numbers for some unlicensed series aren't that far off.

And? It still shows that licensed shows have it to.

QuoteLegality is only one of many possible factors in economics.  If people get stuck on things being illegal, there are many potentially good ideas that get overlooked.

Okay, besides it being illegal, it's STUPID AND WON'T WORK. For reasons I stated above. You don't reward people, and tell them that it's good to steal media from you, and expect it not to get them to steal more.

QuoteRobin Hood sold lots of books and movies.  Even Martha Stewart sold books and TV shows and such after getting out of jail.  Goodwill can translate to money even when people are committing crimes.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT, AND HOW DOES THIS APPLY?!??!?!?! Talking to you is aggrivating because half of what you say doesn't even apply and it's rather retarded, that I'm wasting time before work to reply.

QuoteRace cars aren't street legal.  Why not limit the ability to go fast to cars that can't drive in legal traffic?  It'd probably be a software limiter that can only be changed by a mechanic (the way people aren't supposed to be able to turn back their odometers).  It'd be neat if the roads sent wireless signals telling the cars what the speed limit is, and the cars just will not go faster than that for more than a minute.  It can technologically be done eventually, but it'd be expensive and take a lot of time, and nobody would fund it even if it were proposed.

Because "race cars" aren't just Nascar. You realize people race "everyday" sports cars right? Most "RACE CARS" are just modified versions of street cars. The Focus, the Subaru WRX, the RX8, The M3... etc. etc. etc. Seriously, if you think "race cars" are anything special ?outside of F-1, you're an idiot.

And that doesn't address the other problem about DIFFERENT SPEED LIMITS IN DIFFERENT AREAS! You realize speed limit goes up to 80-85 in certain areas as well right? Then there's other cases. Try to tell someone, that he can't go over 55mph when his son is dying, and every second counts to get him to a hospital where he could be saved. Try telling a soon to be mother, that her husband cannot speed to a hospital where she's having complications and might lose her baby.

QuoteIf it were technologically easy to create knives that will cut meat without cutting humans, why not make it illegal for the average civilian to have human-cutting knives?  Just like cars with certain racing features cannot be legally used on normal roads during normal traffic hours, knives that can cut people cannot be used in normal homes or sold to normal consumers.  If it were possible to create a knife that will cut meat but not humans, I don't see what's wrong with requiring a surgeon license to buy a human-cutting knife.

But this has very little to do with anime.  It's just that things being illegal doesn't stop being people doing them.  Besides, laws can get overturned and worked around.

Now, you're just being really stupid. [back from work] Because there's more usages than cutting meat with a knife? Because of millions of other reasons?

You're no longer even attempting to try and show a point. All you're doing is stating that "Hey, my ideas are stupid, but I have a right to say these stupid ideas, and YOU CAN'T STOP ME OR SAY I'M WRONG!" You're right, I can't stop you from saying them, but I have the same right to tell you how stupid your ideas work, and how they logically don't make sense. You state that companies should try to make money from fansubbers, and all you offer are illegal ways, or ways that would actually cause them to lose money, not make money.

The base idea is fine "they should try to make money". That's all fine and dandy, it's the moment you say anything after that, where you totally look like a fool for even suggesting such horrible ideas.

"Companies should go out, and hold up fansubbers to knife point and make them hand over all of their money to the companies... that way companies will make money during times they aren't making money from sales! ISN'T THIS A GREAT IDEA!?!?!?!?!"

Quote from: Tenba on February 18, 2008, 09:41:18 PM

Quote from: Tony on February 18, 2008, 08:49:51 PMI guess I shouldn't be hanging around this sandbox, but every once in a while, it's fun to play around.

Why do you say that you shouldn't be playing here?  (Does that apply to me too?)  I think it's good that you play.  I think it helps give the feel that Fanime really is "by fans, for fans" rather than having aloof authority figures that come in only to Give Official Word or Hand Down the Law.

Don't mind me; I'm just being a jerk.  ;D It's just a feeling I have for myself, so please do continue.

Quote

QuoteAnyway, as Pyron said in many more words, fansub groups and industry can't get in bed. There's a little logic issue for you! - for them to work together, the fansub groups can't actually do any subs; they'd have to stop, and hence lose a lot of their usefulness (and their name - as fans that sub), in order to do so.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point.  Technically, fansubbers just can't distro.  I believe there shouldn't be anything technically illegal about creating a list of text translations.

Maybe! That's a good question. I dunno how to exploit that, but yours is one idea.

Heh, actually, I don't think Nyxyin's ideas are necessarily stupid. In fact, it maps to a business model used by thousands of legitimate, funded, even public companies today. It can be made viable, though I think it's a bit bubble-ish.

As a side note, can we stay away from similies and metaphors? They're distracting...

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 19, 2008, 07:48:01 PMAll you're doing is stating that "Hey, my ideas are stupid, but I have a right to say these stupid ideas, and YOU CAN'T STOP ME OR SAY I'M WRONG!"

No, actually, it's very easy to stop me.  Just because you and Jun only show interest the silly stuff doesn't mean that's all I've been saying.  For example, you two simply skipped Reply #54.  Onimusha showed interest in the original post, so I went back and dealt with that because he provided feedback that that's what he thought was interesting.  I was actually serious about Reply #54.  However, after that, the feedback I got seemed to indicate that you two were more interested in the silly pieces of the conversation, so that's how we ended up reverting again.  ;)

Quote from: TonyHeh, actually, I don't think Nyxyin's ideas are necessarily stupid. In fact, it maps to a business model used by thousands of legitimate, funded, even public companies today. It can be made viable, though I think it's a bit bubble-ish.

Thanks, Tony.  :)  Honestly, I'm a bit skeptical of the whole per-piece/per-use vs. monthly fee concept too, but it seems to be the way a lot of businesses are going.  I don't know how the ISPs went to flat monthly fees, but now DVD rental places are doing it, and cell phones and VoIP services are doing it too.  It seems to be based on the insurance companies' economic model (health insurance, car insurance, home insurance, etc.): they work out the odds and subscription fees and hope that everything goes according to calculations.  I do still worry that they have their calculations and assumptions all wrong and the monthly fees just don't balance out properly.  Actually, "bubble-ish" is a very good word for it; it sounds likely that the model is one of the factors that led to the earlier tech bust: they calculated only 20% usage on subscription lines, but many people suddenly started going to 100% usage.  But more and more businesses seem to be going in that direction, and much of the financing cycle for businesses seem to count on the subscription model.  I also think it's interesting that cable companies went the other way, starting with a subscription fee and then introducing pay-per-view later.  This flat subscription fee vs. a-la-carte pricing might be another thing that ends up going in circles too.

Quote from: Tenba on February 18, 2008, 09:41:18 PMMaybe partnered Japanese/American companies can present a web site with pictureboards and Japanese audio track or Japanese text while letting fansub groups race to subtitle.

The idea of putting up a series of screenshots as a storyboard and then having fansub groups subtitle audio snippets while also providing critiques, giving Japanese lessons, debating possible localization choices, etc., might possibly have a chance of being covered under "fair use" (in a US court of law with a good enough lawyer).  So, it's possible that it can be done without either the American or Japanese companies' support.  Note that there is no explicit yardstick for "fair use", and it's evaluated on a case-by-case basis, so there's no way to say that something like this will be definitively legal.  However, if fans want to convert to a way of partial fansubbing that might stand a chance of being declared "fair use" in court without having to ask any companies for permission, bringing enough of their own educational, critical, or parodying content to the projects might potentially work.

Quote from: TonyAs a side note, can we stay away from similies and metaphors? They're distracting...

I'll try, but I'm afraid that it's my primary method for translating what I think into words, so it's going to be hard for me...  Please let me know if I start doing it again.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 19, 2008, 10:16:32 PMNo, actually, it's very easy to stop me.  Just because you and Jun only show interest the silly stuff doesn't mean that's all I've been saying.  For example, you two simply skipped Reply #54.  Onimusha showed interest in the original post, so I went back and dealt with that because he provided feedback that that's what he thought was interesting.  I was actually serious about Reply #54.  However, after that, the feedback I got seemed to indicate that you two were more interested in the silly pieces of the conversation, so that's how we ended up reverting again.  ;)

I wrote the majority of that reply before work, and just finished it up after I got back. Hence the [Back from Work] and me mentioning that I was spending time before work to reply to you. So I didn't reply back.

QuoteSo, I don't understand why they're blaming the downloaders when they're not counting TV numbers.  The anime on TV has gone up a lot since 2003.  To accuse the 40K downloaders of being responsible for a $50M/year decline, people would have to expect each downloader to buy $1250 of DVDs every year.  I might spend that much personally, but I doubt the people who are downloading can afford it.  It seems more realistic that those 40M households with Anime Network moved an average of less than $2/year to pay per view anime instead of spending it on DVDs.  Besides, there are many other legal ways to get anime without buying DVDs.  I know a friend that rents all his anime from NetFlix and another that uses the local video rental place.  Because they've spent money on rentals, and because renting is completely legal, they completely feel like they've done their part to support the anime industry, and they never actually buy any DVDs, so they don't show up in anime DVD sales figures.  Libraries are carrying quite a lot of anime, anime clubs are building anime lending libraries, and people are coming up with anime DVD trading sites as well.  All this is considered to be fully legal, and things like this are bound to happen more as anime gets more popular.  Until 2003, it's possible that these alternatives weren't widely available yet.  It might've been harder to get anime DVDs on NetFlix or at the local video store because anime just didn't have enough market penetration.  In 2003, there was no AZN TV, no AniMonday, and no Funimation channel.  There are a lot more legal ways to get anime without buying the DVDs now.  I'm not sure I see any proof that the downloaders are responsible for the decline.

If the American anime companies want to try to capitalize on them, that's great.  Merely saying that downloading is illegal and people shouldn't do it doesn't solve the problem.  There are a lot of still-legal alternatives that will get them access to anime without buying any DVDs.

But... it doesn't change anything. Okay, let's say that they find a way to make billions, the fact that fansubbers still illegally download still exists. The fact that they're pirating media, and sharing it, is still a problem. They are commiting a crime, and taking money from the company.

So they count TV, and they count movies, does that mean fansubbers aren't a problem? Do you know how those numbers are made? Apparently not. The idea is that, people that download are "buying" the media for 0$ when they should be paying x amount for it. So let's say 10 people download Bleach. That's 10 people getting the media, which means those people stole the reflective DVD's. Therefore that is 10 DVD's that were stolen and that costs the company 10xDVD cost. Are the numbers how much these downloaders would actually spend if they didn't download it? No, but that is the projected numbers for the amount of intellectual property that was stolen.

So, even when you're serious, your explainations and theories, as well as your ideas and understanding are still wrong and stupid.

This goes back to my first reply... ignorant people like you post as if they know anything, and instead of attempting to learn, they argue and fight back to prove that "what I said wasn't wrong".

Quote from: PyronIkari on February 19, 2008, 11:29:08 PMBut... it doesn't change anything. Okay, let's say that they find a way to make billions, the fact that fansubbers still illegally download still exists. The fact that they're pirating media, and sharing it, is still a problem. They are commiting a crime

And we are back to the same thing yet again.  Whether you realize it or not, you are again asserting that legality is the be-all and end-all of the discussion and that the illegal is always a problem.  That is the entire basis of all your arguments.  You already said that many times.  I have provided different examples of why legality is only one factor, and a relatively small one at that.  I fundamentally have a moral code that transcends what any legislative body can dictate.  No matter how many names you try to call me or how many times you try to use those names, I'm not going to agree that legality is the only factor in the decision.

Quotetaking money from the company. ... The idea is that, people that download are "buying" the media for 0$ when they should be paying x amount for it.

Libraries, rental stores, and friends give people access to anime without paying the anime companies.  eBay will allow you to even get the physical media for an R1 DVD without sending even one cent to the anime companies.  That is arguably as much "taking money from the company" as watching rips.  The only difference is all these ways of watching anime without paying the anime companies are legal.  What's the difference in money to the anime companies between watching a borrowed DVD and watching a rip?  You're using this word "media", which is ambiguous.  Especially if people delete their rips after watching them, the impact to the anime companies is no different from borrowing the DVD from a friend, a library, or a rental store.

QuoteSo let's say 10 people download Bleach. That's 10 people getting the media, which means those people stole the reflective DVD's.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reflective", but those 10 DVDs are still in the warehouse.  The physical media still belongs to the company.  They can still sell that physical media and still make the same amount of money on that physical copy whether they sold it to the downloader or whether they sold it to someone else.

QuoteTherefore that is 10 DVD's that were stolen and that costs the company 10xDVD cost.

No, at worst, those 10 copies only cost the company the amount of revenue they make off the DVDs, not the entire DVD cost.  So, let's say the company charges $25/DVD, but it cost $10 for the physical DVD, the ink and paper for the inserts, the keepsake case, the factory time and energy costs, etc.  The company still has the $10 worth of materials, so at most, each download may have been worth up to $15.  But then, each instance of legal borrowing would also be worth $15.

Quoteignorant people like you post as if they know anything, and instead of attempting to learn, they argue and fight back to prove that "what I said wasn't wrong".

Ad hominem.  (And such irony.)

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 20, 2008, 03:13:29 AM
And we are back to the same thing yet again.  Whether you realize it or not, you are again asserting that legality is the be-all and end-all of the discussion and that the illegal is always a problem.  That is the entire basis of all your arguments.  You already said that many times.  I have provided different examples of why legality is only one factor, and a relatively small one at that.  I fundamentally have a moral code that transcends what any legislative body can dictate.  No matter how many names you try to call me or how many times you try to use those names, I'm not going to agree that legality is the only factor in the decision.

But the focus is fansubbers and their actions. The whole point of this thread was fansubbers, and their actions, and their impact. The focus on whether or not companies make money, how else they make money was secondary to the fact that "Fansubbers are stealing money from companies". The legallity is a major issue, and that's because...

QuoteLibraries, rental stores, and friends give people access to anime without paying the anime companies.  eBay will allow you to even get the physical media for an R1 DVD without sending even one cent to the anime companies.  That is arguably as much "taking money from the company" as watching rips.  The only difference is all these ways of watching anime without paying the anime companies are legal.  What's the difference in money to the anime companies between watching a borrowed DVD and watching a rip?  You're using this word "media", which is ambiguous.  Especially if people delete their rips after watching them, the impact to the anime companies is no different from borrowing the DVD from a friend, a library, or a rental store.

... Ownership of the physical media. Libraries, borrowing it from friends, second hand stores. You are giving up the rights and usages of the media, and giving ownership to someone else. What's the difference? Libraries paid for it, or it was donated to them by someone that paid for it, and is given permission to do so. That purchase was still made and made legitimately. Second hand stores, e-bay etc. one person is giving up ownership of the DVD, so someone else can have it. But that initial purchase was still made and only one person has access to that media at any one time. You're missing the huge picture. It's not that "people watch it without paying for it", so much that they have to go through the process of ownership. Hell, you can "WATCH IT ON TV FOR FREE!" that's basicall what you're equating it to. And again, that's wrong, because the processes are still there. Advertisements on TV paid for it which is why you're allowed to watch it. Economical rotation. Downloading it off the internet, isn't the same, because you're cutting out the economical middle man, and watching something without the money revolution to reflect it. That is money lost in rotation, the the companies would have seen. If people delete their rips, that's no different still. They still possessed ownership of the DVD without purchase.

I don't get how you're still trying to justify fansubs. People don't deserve things just because they want to. You're stating "libraries exist, so people should get books for free too!" Then why the hell do college kids have to pay 100-200$ for a single text book in school?

QuoteI'm not sure what you mean by "reflective", but those 10 DVDs are still in the warehouse.  The physical media still belongs to the company.  They can still sell that physical media and still make the same amount of money on that physical copy whether they sold it to the downloader or whether they sold it to someone else.

Do you not understand "Intellectual property"?

QuoteNo, at worst, those 10 copies only cost the company the amount of revenue they make off the DVDs, not the entire DVD cost.  So, let's say the company charges $25/DVD, but it cost $10 for the physical DVD, the ink and paper for the inserts, the keepsake case, the factory time and energy costs, etc.  The company still has the $10 worth of materials, so at most, each download may have been worth up to $15.  But then, each instance of legal borrowing would also be worth $15.

It matters how distribution is done, but that's besides the point. It costs the company money. THe exact amount isn't the issue and I didn't want to bother writing that all up. They still lose money, why are you trying to point out insignificant details that go no where.

Quote
Ad hominem.  (And such irony.)

Actually, it wasn't. It was a direct statement. Ad hominems are used to sidestep arguement and attack the person instead so that they seem wrong without having a point. I have a point, and more than support it, I'm just telling you that in addition.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 19, 2008, 10:16:32 PM

Quote from: TonyHeh, actually, I don't think Nyxyin's ideas are necessarily stupid. In fact, it maps to a business model used by thousands of legitimate, funded, even public companies today. It can be made viable, though I think it's a bit bubble-ish.

Thanks, Tony.  :)  Honestly, I'm a bit skeptical of the whole per-piece/per-use vs. monthly fee concept too, but it seems to be the way a lot of businesses are going.

Actually I wasn't referring to that ^^; But those are good points nonetheless.

The model I was talking basically boils down to this: giving away the product for free in order to make revenue elsewhere.

- Linux vendors work this way. You can download linux for free, but if you want a physical DVD - or help installing/maintaining it - you have to pay.
- TV. The money comes from advertisers.
- A LOT of internet companies work this way. Even google: they create search software, but make their money selling advertisements to show people using their software.

This could work for anime as well. If the video market really does tank, and tanks globally, then this could be the new model to use. Give away the anime for free, and make the profit off of merchandise, collectors items, advertisements, etc.

QuoteI don't know how the ISPs went to flat monthly fees, but now DVD rental places are doing it, and cell phones and VoIP services are doing it too.  It seems to be based on the insurance companies' economic model (health insurance, car insurance, home insurance, etc.): they work out the odds and subscription fees and hope that everything goes according to calculations.  I do still worry that they have their calculations and assumptions all wrong and the monthly fees just don't balance out properly.

There's a few things at play. In general, the first wave of customers pay for the underlying infrastructure. Once that's over with, the margins get big - but that also makes it easier for prices to drop. By this time, though, you should have enough data about usage to figure out how much you can offer and for what price. Eventually prices work their way down to what companies can sustain.

There's all kinds of benefits of a subscription service, too. People forget to turn it off, don't use it as much as they could, etc. A lot of companies use these kinds of trends to make a lot of money. And, there are almost always use clauses that prevent people from abusing the subscription.

QuoteI also think it's interesting that cable companies went the other way, starting with a subscription fee and then introducing pay-per-view later.  This flat subscription fee vs. a-la-carte pricing might be another thing that ends up going in circles too.

I think that might be a different story; I think it's just ad hoc reaction to subscribers complaining that they've got 300 channels and nothing to watch. Offer VOD and the subscribers are happier. Of course, you're still getting charged a subscription fee to get VOD, so the companies are still happily making a buck - even if they're going back to the old pay-per-view model.

Quote

Quote from: TonyAs a side note, can we stay away from similies and metaphors? They're distracting...

I'll try, but I'm afraid that it's my primary method for translating what I think into words, so it's going to be hard for me...  Please let me know if I start doing it again.

I do it all the time! I have to really force myself not to, mostly because readers get distracted or hung up on the metaphor, but also because it helps clarify my own thoughts. (That is, the process of figuring out how to say it without metaphor helps me get a better grip on what I'm talking about. Something a learned from and old English teacher.)

Quote from: Tony on February 20, 2008, 08:54:53 AMActually I wasn't referring to that ^^;

Oops. ^^;

QuoteThe model I was talking basically boils down to this: giving away the product for free in order to make revenue elsewhere.

Ah, OK.

Quote- Linux vendors work this way. You can download linux for free, but if you want a physical DVD - or help installing/maintaining it - you have to pay.

Not related to the fansubbing conversation, but I found it interesting that Ubuntu seems to even have found a way to offer to ship physical CDs for free:

Quote from: https://shipit.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu is available free of charge and we can send you CDs of the latest version (7.10 (Gutsy Gibbon)) with no extra cost, but the delivery may take up to ten weeks, so you should consider downloading the CD images if you have a fast Internet connection."

I don't know if anybody has ever taken them up on the offer, but it definitely surprised me to see them offer physical CD images.  I think people value the project enough and the demand for physical media is low enough that they make enough in donations to support it.

Quote- TV. The money comes from advertisers.
- A LOT of internet companies work this way. Even google: they create search software, but make their money selling advertisements to show people using their software.

This could work for anime as well. If the video market really does tank, and tanks globally, then this could be the new model to use. Give away the anime for free, and make the profit off of merchandise, collectors items, advertisements, etc.

I agree with all that, but I'm not sure how any of it is "bubble-ish"?  To me, ads seem even more important during a recession because consumers are psychologically discouraged from spending due to the economic conditions, and ads are valuable because they tweak consumer psychology.  Anime itself (as well as all entertainment) is fundamentally "bubble-ish" because they're luxury goods, and demand for luxury goods is elastic and tends to become very unstable during recessions.  Selling ads instead of anime would basically be converting the very elastic demand into more inelastic demand.  (Actually, come to think of it, maybe I don't understand what you meant by "bubble-ish" either.  ^^;; )

There's also the Baen Free Library model (http://"http://www.baen.com/library/") of "the first hit is free".  I think that's what fansubbing should've settled down into: subtitle several episodes to get fans addicted, and then the fans can get the rest from the companies when they come over.  Unfortunately, fansub time has sped up drastically, and between the license negotiations and the commercial production time, the R1 release takes so long that all the fansub demand has evaporated by the time the R1s can be purchased, and all the people who were downloading fansubs had forgotten about the series.  If American anime companies can firmly commit to a release date before announcing a license, maybe they can take pre-orders before the fansub demand evaporates.  Unfortunately, I believe that, if the American companies have the distribution rights and don't enforce them, there's a risk that the Japanese companies lose their copyrights.

One solution to the fansub problem is to do what the fansubbers have been asking for all along: If they're going to license a series for gaijin distribution anyways, why not just go for a simultaneous worldwide release?  I remember hearing of a few titles that were supposed to do that.  What happened to them?  The Internet has made the market global.  Trying to keep overseas licenses separate from domestic releases keeps the gray market open.  Sony has already acknowledged this.  R2 Ghibli titles already have gaijin subtitles on them, and when we go to Blu-ray, Ghibli titles should be ready for worldwide distribution.  And, with the new technology, companies should be able to reset price expectations.  Why not bring Japanese and gaijin prices in line with each other?  If anime companies are saying that they can't drop prices until they sell more copies, then shouldn't having one master for all BR-R1 countries allow them to drop prices?  So, maybe any fansub problems will simply expire when Blu-ray comes anyways.  If the Japanese companies recognize the market as global and don't want to incorporate the American anime companies into the process (although I don't see why not -- the American companies have the sub and dub resources ready for them), then the American anime companies might also expire when Blu-ray comes, but I don't think that hurts anime itself.

Come to think of it, can that be the real reason why Geneon USA is gone?  Maybe it isn't that they ran into financial difficulties as the original post suggestioned.  Maybe Geneon.jp is taking back those resources and positioning itself to go global...?  That'd be really interesting.

QuoteThere's a few things at play. In general, the first wave of customers pay for the underlying infrastructure. Once that's over with, the margins get big - but that also makes it easier for prices to drop. By this time, though, you should have enough data about usage to figure out how much you can offer and for what price. Eventually prices work their way down to what companies can sustain.

In theory, that should be true.  I hope you don't mind the digression, but...

Part of the problem with ISP services is that there were a few very big companies that can run the ISP side at a loss and use profits (not to mention existing infrastructure) from some other part of the company (such as phone and cable) to cover the expenses.  This strategy pretty much drove most of the previous ISPs out of business and makes it almost impossible for new competition to start.  I think we'll see prices go up to what the companies want to sustain.  Furthermore, I think we'll also see a drop in the speed at which upgrades happen.  We should have higher speeds for cheaper prices in large metropolitan areas by now.  Most other countries do.  Japan is better than most countries, but I found http://bbpromo.yahoo.co.jp/adsl/regular/index.html to be interesting (scroll down a bit to the table).  Their DSL downloads faster than a DS3, uploads faster than a T1, and costs much less than a fractional frame relay line.  The technology exists, but we can't buy it here no matter how much we're willing to pay.  I don't know how good the service actually is or what restrictions they put on the use, but those advertised speeds are impressive (and the prices are good too).

QuoteI think it's just ad hoc reaction to subscribers complaining that they've got 300 channels and nothing to watch. Offer VOD and the subscribers are happier. Of course, you're still getting charged a subscription fee to get VOD, so the companies are still happily making a buck - even if they're going back to the old pay-per-view model.

Well...  I think cables TV tends to work because they have a bit of a monopoly.  Everybody needs TV, even if it's just for emergency broadcasts.  The broadcast airwaves just can't be picked up very well from many places these days.  So, many people pretty much have to have cable, and in many places, there just isn't a choice of cable companies.  It's great that the cable companies are nice and continuing to innovate, but maybe it's also partly because they're greedy and they're looking around to see what other industries they can entice consumers away from, and they decided to try to get into the phone market and the video rental market.

QuoteI have to really force myself not to, mostly because readers get distracted or hung up on the metaphor, but also because it helps clarify my own thoughts. (That is, the process of figuring out how to say it without metaphor helps me get a better grip on what I'm talking about. Something a learned from and old English teacher.)

^^;  Well... I'll try.  English was one of my least favorite subjects.  It takes a lot of concentration for me to form coherent sentences at all.  I've been told that a lot of people think in words or pictures, but I don't normally do that.  In my head, when I debate, I have all these simultaneous thoughts from many points of view on all sides of the conversation, but when I try to narrow it down into one sequential line of reasoning and put words to it, it's very limiting, and the points get all muddied together, and I tend to lose my grasp on the thought structure.  A trick I learned from an English teacher is "a picture is worth a thousand words", and I found that most people tend to understand faster if I use fewer words and make them into pictures than if I use all the direct words I need to get my point across.

Quote from: PyronIkariAd hominems are used to sidestep argument and attack the person instead so that they seem wrong without having a point. I have a point, and more than support it, I'm just telling you that in addition.

So, if a post has some other content somewhere, it's suddenly OK to riddle it with random ad hominem words throughout and dedicate a paragraph to ad hominem at the end?  Sure, OK.  Frankly, Pyron, you haven't said anything that Big Media hasn't been brainwashing into the masses for decades now.  You keep coming back to "it's illegal" (and "it's stupid/crap/ignorant", and frankly, words like "stupid", "crap", "ignorant" have no real content other than as ad hominem attacks and simply show a limited vocabulary, lack of original thought, an inability to write proper closing and transitions, and an interest more in malicious intent then the actual content of the conversation -- use of words such as "stupid" and "crap" about the content of a conversation become self-fulfilling prophesies).

QuoteI don't get how you're still trying to justify fansubs.

I'm not trying to justify fansubs per se.  I'm just trying to skip past the justification or lack of justification of fansubs and start from "other industries haven't been able to get downloaders to stop" and "fansubbers are something the other industries haven't looked at, and they probably don't intend to be malicious, so is there something more we can do about that?"  You keep bringing the conversation back to "downloaders should stop" and "fansubs are illegal", which closes the conversation.  Every time you do that, I have to open it back up again.  For decades or longer (audio tapes), Big Media has been bogging down their industries by stubbornly returning to "it's illegal" and "they're stealing money from us", but dwelling on that doesn't stop the downloaders.  If they dedicated all the energy that they wasted on "it's illegal" and instead contemplated "How can we get that money back?", then they might've been able to make more money and gain more fans.  Instead, they alienated a large portion of their talent in addition to their consumers.  Even though consumers knew it was illegal and that the RIAA wouldn't hesitate to bring legal action, they started feeling morally justified in downloading because they decided that Big Media was overcharging, Big Media was malicious, Big Media was "The Enemy", and Big Media was cheating their beloved idols, so they decided it was not morally bad to do things to hurt Big Media.

Frankly, I don't blame Big Media for what they did.  I think they had every right to do it, and I can understand why they didn't feel like they had a choice.  I also think Big Media actually earned the money it's charging both sides.  I don't think their "talent" is actually very talented.  I think Big Media does bring millions of dollars worth of publicity to the so-called "talent" and pretty much buys fans for the talent by brainwashing the masses with lots of "free" exposure (which Big Media pays for).  I think Big Media spent a lot of money making fans for those idols.  Besides, if Big Media didn't put up a fuss in enforcing their copyrights, they could've lost those rights.  Still, no matter how justified they were in doing what they did, Big Media showed that such a tactic simply doesn't work, and they alienated both their consumers and their "talent" by trying.  So, other industries are trying to learn from this and trying to figure out alternatives.  The attitude in the first post is problematic because it's just regurgitating the Big Media attitude that has already failed, no matter how morally justified that attitude might have been.

One way to make more money is to cut costs.  An article in the original link blames the Japanese companies for keeping licensing costs high even if they're not warranted.  From the consumer point of view, there's been an avalanche of R1 releases, and most of them just aren't very interesting.  Even if it were interesting, anime fans only have so much budget.  If they're not making money, maybe the American companies are just getting too many titles and tapping out the fans that can pay.  It doesn't seem like the American anime companies are being very selective about what they get, and they seem to copy the attitude of the ego subbers: let's race all the other groups to see who can get titles.  This puts the American anime companies in a bidding war against each other, and that drives up the price of the licenses.  So, as localizers drop out, the costs should fall for the remaining companies.

Another way to make more money is to convince people who previously were not interested to become consumers.  If they can drop prices, it's more likely that they can dip into people who were previously not buying anime because of the extra cost.

Also, maybe they're tapping out the disposable incomes of their fans.  The economy hasn't been doing that well in general, and anime is a luxury good.  Some fans used to collect every last R1 anime title just to support the industry, especially during the tech boom (since many anime fans are also geeks).  Back then, it did make sense for the companies to license whatever they can because those fans would buy it, no matter how bad it was.  Now that the industry is releasing over 700 titles per year, no fan can afford that.  They've licensed so many series that they've exhausted the incomes of their most avid fans.  These days, some buyers form groups in which each person gets a different title and share whereas, during the tech boom, each person in the entire group would've gotten their own copy.  Consumers had to become more selective, and shouldn't companies reflect that with their licensing decisions?  As American anime companies become more selective about what they license, then the Japanese companies will feel the decrease in demand and probably lower the licensing prices as well.  On the other hand, if the American anime companies already locked themselves into certain commits or something, then that's a problem.  If fans hear about things like that, however, maybe it would help people sympathize more with their plight.  Sympathy -- and goodwill in general -- can translate to dollars, and we have a lot of "green" companies that are taking advantage of this phenomenon.

In any case, with the Blu-ray announcement, it think it'd be interesting to see how BR-R1 impacts fansubbing.

Quote from: Nyxyin on February 20, 2008, 02:38:24 PM
I don't know if anybody has ever taken them up on the offer, but it definitely surprised me to see them offer physical CD images.  I think people value the project enough and the demand for physical media is low enough that they make enough in donations to support it.

Low demand, low prices, and a chance to take more market share. I wonder how much

QuoteI agree with all that, but I'm not sure how any of it is "bubble-ish"?

See: the web ca. 2001. ;D A lot of people formed start-ups on these kinds of ideas. People are still forming businesses on these kinds of ideas. Take Facebook, whose revenue is entirely from ads. Microsoft bought a 1.6% stake for $240 million, making Facebook's valuation $15 billion. Yet their revenues are estimated at only 1% of that - about $100-$150 million per year. There's a big discrepancy there - a bubble waiting to burst.

What I'm saying is, speculators might see 40,000 people gobbling up releases and think that sounds like a market ready to be exploited. But, as we've discussed, that's not necessarily true. If industry decides to go this route, it'll be hard to go back (who pays for something if tradition is that it is free?) and if it fails, there's not much where else to go.

QuoteTo me, ads seem even more important during a recession because consumers are psychologically discouraged from spending due to the economic conditions, and ads are valuable because they tweak consumer psychology.  Anime itself (as well as all entertainment) is fundamentally "bubble-ish" because they're luxury goods, and demand for luxury goods is elastic and tends to become very unstable during recessions.  Selling ads instead of anime would basically be converting the very elastic demand into more inelastic demand.  (Actually, come to think of it, maybe I don't understand what you meant by "bubble-ish" either.  ^^;; )

I don't disagree, it's just that these nth-order/abstract markets - ones where you don't make money off of the things you create - get messy quick, and die in strange ways.

QuoteThere's also the Baen Free Library model (http://"http://www.baen.com/library/") of "the first hit is free".  I think that's what fansubbing should've settled down into: subtitle several episodes to get fans addicted, and then the fans can get the rest from the companies when they come over.  Unfortunately, fansub time has sped up drastically, and between the license negotiations and the commercial production time, the R1 release takes so long that all the fansub demand has evaporated by the time the R1s can be purchased, and all the people who were downloading fansubs had forgotten about the series.

I'd say that's a pretty good diagnosis of the situation; fansubs got faster, easier, cheaper whereas industry got slower and more complicated.

QuoteIf American anime companies can firmly commit to a release date before announcing a license, maybe they can take pre-orders before the fansub demand evaporates.  Unfortunately, I believe that, if the American companies have the distribution rights and don't enforce them, there's a risk that the Japanese companies lose their copyrights.

I'm not sure it's possible, but speed may be the key. I could see that working for a huge series/franchise, but most series aren't buzz-worthy enough for pre-order status.

QuoteOne solution to the fansub problem is to do what the fansubbers have been asking for all along: If they're going to license a series for gaijin distribution anyways, why not just go for a simultaneous worldwide release?

I think it's too tricky. Even blockbuster hollywood movies don't all have simultaneous, world-wide releases - even in the same language, even if they are simply subtitled. There's a lot of risk and a lot of work in translating/subbing/dubbing something before it's officially released.

Besides, these are mostly TV shows, that won't go to video for some time. If they don't get out in a week or less, there's no hope - fansubbers will have beat them.

QuoteR2 Ghibli titles already have gaijin subtitles on them, and when we go to Blu-ray, Ghibli titles should be ready for worldwide distribution.

Yeah, but... they're Ghibli.  :P And these tend to be the traditional movie model of theatrical release to DVD.

QuoteAnd, with the new technology, companies should be able to reset price expectations.  Why not bring Japanese and gaijin prices in line with each other?

I thought Japanese prices were more expensive...? Anyway, the prices will have to drop to the lowest value, or be very close to it, or you self-compete. (Don't by the $30 US version; buy the UK version for $10+shipping!)

QuoteCome to think of it, can that be the real reason why Geneon USA is gone?  Maybe it isn't that they ran into financial difficulties as the original post suggestioned.  Maybe Geneon.jp is taking back those resources and positioning itself to go global...?  That'd be really interesting.

Sorry, but I'd say that's wishful thinking. ^^;

QuotePart of the problem with ISP services...[snip]

Yes and no... it's really complicated. Large companies often use their size as leverage to kill competition in emerging/growth markets (see xbox) but just about every market hates to pay more. The overall trend is always lower prices and/or better service. With regard to ISPs, there are a bunch of historical factors with telcos that may have stunted growth here compared to Japan, but that doesn't imply that prices are going to get higher. Of course, as you said, companies will do just about anything they can to make sure the prices are what THEY want-including slowing growth and competition, as much as is legal.

QuoteIt's great that the cable companies are nice and continuing to innovate, but maybe it's also partly because they're greedy and they're looking around to see what other industries they can entice consumers away from, and they decided to try to get into the phone market and the video rental market.

I think you're maybe reading morality into my explanation. They continue to innovate BECAUSE they're greedy. If it helps the customers, it's usually only a hook to charge more. Like you said, they probably got into it so they could branch out and get as much money from the stream as possible. Is it good for the customer? Sure - but it's even BETTER for the companies.

Quote from: Tony on February 21, 2008, 03:17:39 PMWhat I'm saying is, speculators might see 40,000 people gobbling up releases and think that sounds like a market ready to be exploited. But, as we've discussed, that's not necessarily true.

Ah, OK.  Good point.  In general, I think all of your points were good, so I'm just going to say that here once instead of repeating "good point" throughout the post.

QuoteIf industry decides to go this route, it'll be hard to go back (who pays for something if tradition is that it is free?) and if it fails, there's not much where else to go.

QuoteBesides, these are mostly TV shows, that won't go to video for some time.

Oh!  Having both of those in the same post is interesting.  Are the anime companies competing against tradition to begin with?  From certain points of view, the anime looks like it's "free" on TV to begin with, so "who pays for something if tradition is that it is free"?

QuoteEven blockbuster hollywood movies don't all have simultaneous, world-wide releases - even in the same language, even if they are simply subtitled.

That's true, but we had NTSC vs PAL, Region 1 vs Region 2, and lots of physical and technical challenges to global distribution.  Now, we have Region A for Blu-Ray, and we have a global Internet.  It's not going to solve the problem any time in the near future, but Region A should have some sort of impact as people start adopting Blu-Ray.  (BTW, I'm sorry about using the incorrect term before, and I was also wrong before: Region A doesn't seem to cover Europe, so they'd still be separate.)

Quote

QuoteAnd, with the new technology, companies should be able to reset price expectations.  Why not bring Japanese and gaijin prices in line with each other?

I thought Japanese prices were more expensive...? Anyway, the prices will have to drop to the lowest value, or be very close to it, or you self-compete. (Don't by the $30 US version; buy the UK version for $10+shipping!)

I meant that people should be willing to pay more for Blu-Ray because it's new and improved technology.  So, even if Americans used to paying $20/DVD and the Japanese used to pay $40/DVD, maybe we'd all be willing to pay $50/disk for Blu-Ray if it's marketed well.  Basically, Blu-Ray might offer a chance to get the American consumers used to paying Japanese prices for anime.  Also, since we have the same Region A across the US and Japan, maybe the blockbuster movie companies and the US TV companies would also raise their prices to include dubbing and subbing costs for the Japanese market.  Apparently, some of our US TV shows become quite popular over in Japan too.  Shouldn't companies localizing US TV shows for Japan have just as many difficulties with downloaders than those localizing Japanese shows for the US?  (The downloaders in Japan should have more bandwidth.)  Wasn't doing something like this part of the companies' goals when they were creating Region A?

Quote

QuoteCome to think of it, can that be the real reason why Geneon USA is gone?  Maybe it isn't that they ran into financial difficulties as the original post suggestioned.  Maybe Geneon.jp is taking back those resources and positioning itself to go global...?  That'd be really interesting.

Sorry, but I'd say that's wishful thinking. ^^;

Yes, probably.  But asking downloaders to start buying DVDs because they're being told that downloading is illegal seems like wishful thinking to me too, so I think this whole thread was based on wishful thinking to begin with.  ;)

Without wishful thinking, the state of the world is that downloading is illegal, but some people do it anyways, and there probably aren't enough of them that it's worth putting in the extra money required to actually do anything about them, so why bother thinking about them at all?  Realistically, people have already thought about the problem, and they've already set into motion some changes that should have an interesting impact in the future.  But, well, if we left it at that, then we wouldn't have explored a lot of other things in the process.

One idea that might be worth keeping is trying to encourage fansubbers to use methods that might more readily fall under fair use.  Maybe school and library anime clubs should be encouraged to do that too.  If they critique the series and discuss the series as an educational activity instead of just watching episodes with strangers, it might not be so illegal.  Maybe Fanime should do that as well.  Maybe schedule an extra 10 minutes between series in the viewing rooms to have a discussion, ask people for critiques, etc.  Anime Videos already has a lot of interesting things going on, but maybe they can have something like a Tezuka block in which two drastically different Tezuka series are shown, and then they can hold a discussion about what Tezuka's philosophical and political views might've been and contrast them to those of Greek philosophers and such.  Or something like that.  Come to think of it, it'd be somewhat like doing for anime what Ric Meyers does for Kung Fu.