Don't Pop The Pill If He Won't Share The Bill

[Mizuki]

Best way for birth control  is

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

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Seriously, if that was more acceptable in society we wouldn't have so many teens having babies and people who shouldn't have kids in the first place.

JMO

Should I explain how incredibly stupid this is? Not only that, this is the second time you've said it now...

Is it really? I lost count ;-)

Masturbation is pretty much well accepted every where in the world(don't bother citing places or religions where it's not, because it's besides the point... as even within these places it still happens). Secondly... despite it being regular practice, it doesn't change anything. Masturbation is not an adequate replacement for sex. If it was, people wouldn't bother having sex, as they would get the exact same pleasure out of masturbation, thus wouldn't have to go through all the effort to get sex.

Your proposal doesn't even help the problem, because it's more about feigning ignorance than educating people into making better decisions. It's the same idea as Nyxyin or whatever's proposal to remove racism by forcefully make everyone mix breed. It's an idea of forced alternative than tolerance and education.

So, what was your point again?

You missed the point :(.

I'd like it, as a moderator, for you to elaborate your thoughts, instead of posting one liners that hold nothing to the debate at hand. Thanks

[PyronIkari]

You are welcome! Happy holidays  ;D

Awesome... I love forums where moderators don't follow the rules, troll, and then try to get the people they are trolling banned.

[Mizuki]

You are welcome! Happy holidays  ;D

Okay, I did not see this post when I was posting my initial warning. Stop posting stuff that obviously does not help the discussion grow. This is a discussion forum, not a place to troll.

[Nyxyin]

You mentioned how it'd supposedly be better if masturbation is acceptable in society. Are you saying that people have sex in place of masturbation because they're forced to by society?

That's a huge leap.  It's like someone saying "It'd be nice if I'm allowed to have chocolate cake whenever I want" and you then asking "Are you saying that you want to be force-fed chocolate cake all the time?"  "Acceptable" doesn't mean "forced".

I take it that you've never had a sexual partner, otherwise you wouldn't be saying so god damned stupid.

You've just proven lyricaldanichan's point that masturbation is not accepted.  The second someone says that masturbation might be equivalent to sex, they're accused of not having had sex or at least not being very good at it.  People get socially put down when they say such things.  Such attitudes against masturbation are no different from bigotry against homosexuality.

I don't think we know how many people would naturally prefer masturbation over sex if they weren't socially pressured to do so by all the peer pressure asserting that sex is somehow better.  I think some people do talk themselves into considering masturbation inferior to sex because they're insecure enough to listen to people who tell them that considering sex and masturbation equivalent is "god damned stupid".  If such attitudes against masturbation were gone, we would at least stop people (especially teenagers) from trying to "score" just because they want to prove something.  Fixing attitudes would stop the "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon.  Better yet, social acceptance of masturbation would prevent problems in those who keep doing it because it wasn't really that good for them (and may never been that good for them -- maybe autosexuality is as valid a preference as homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality), but they're told that it's only because they're doing it "wrong", and it's some amazing holy grail if they do it right, so they do riskier and riskier things (like trying it without condoms) trying to get it "right".

[Jun-Watarase]

You mentioned how it'd supposedly be better if masturbation is acceptable in society. Are you saying that people have sex in place of masturbation because they're forced to by society?

That's a huge leap.  It's like someone saying "It'd be nice if I'm allowed to have chocolate cake whenever I want" and you then asking "Are you saying that you want to be force-fed chocolate cake all the time?"  "Acceptable" doesn't mean "forced".

Do I honestly need to go into what a terrible analogy that is? She implied that people would be preventing pregnancy moreso than they do by masturbating in place of sex, but CAN'T because it isn't "socially acceptable". But *gasp*, it already is! And yet.... PEOPLE ARE STILL HAVING SEX? AND MASTURBATING? And guess what, people masturbate because they want to masturbate, not because they're trying to prevent pregnancies.

I take it that you've never had a sexual partner, otherwise you wouldn't be saying so god damned stupid.

You've just proven lyricaldanichan's point that masturbation is not accepted.  The second someone says that masturbation might be equivalent to sex, they're accused of not having had sex or at least not being very good at it.  People get socially put down when they say such things.  Such attitudes against masturbation are no different from bigotry against homosexuality.

How does that prove her point? It doesn't. And HOW IN GOD'S NAME, IS THAT COMPARED TO BIGOTRY AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY? Really, how do you even come up with this nonsensical crap. Here's a heads up... masturbation DOESN'T equate to replacing sex. They're two completely different activities, and don't even compare outside of it sharing the goal for orgasm. I didn't speak ill of people who masturbate, or masturbation itself-- I said that because it was a STUPID suggestion. Let's do a recap on what the suggestion was before you start misinterpreting things again.

Her suggestion was that the solution to unwanted pregnancies and STDs are... *drumroll* MASTURBATION! Anyone with knowledge of both masturbation and sex would be able to understand how that suggestion is utterly stupid. But apparently, implying that she lacks knowledge means that I'm just as bad as homo-beating narrow-minded conservatives. Oh my!

I don't think we know how many people would naturally prefer masturbation over sex if they weren't socially pressured to do so by all the peer pressure asserting that sex is somehow better.  I think some people do talk themselves into considering masturbation inferior to sex because they're insecure enough to listen to people who tell them that considering sex and masturbation equivalent is "god damned stupid".  If such attitudes against masturbation were gone, we would at least stop people (especially teenagers) from trying to "score" just because they want to prove something.  Fixing attitudes would stop the "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon.  Better yet, social acceptance of masturbation would prevent problems in those who keep doing it because it wasn't really that good for them (and may never been that good for them -- maybe autosexuality is as valid a preference as homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality), but they're told that it's only because they're doing it "wrong", and it's some amazing holy grail if they do it right, so they do riskier and riskier things (like trying it without condoms) trying to get it "right".

Again, masturbation and sex are two different things. Both are enjoyable, but they DO NOT replace each other. There is nothing wrong with masturbation itself, but saying that it is a replacement for sex is god damned stupid. I think you read it as "Oh no! Jun is saying masturbation is stupid." No. If you could comprehend it for what it was, I had said "Saying that masturbation is a solution to unwanted pregnancy and the spread of STDs is stupid". See the difference?

Masturbation is something that people enjoy, already is accepted, and is a healthy thing to do. It is NOT a equal replacement for sex nor is it a solution for pregnancy and STDs. Masturbation is done solely for pleasure and relief to one's own sexual urges. Sex is a mutual activity both for pleasure, and an expression of love between two people. Bottom line, masturbation =! sex.

[PyronIkari]

Not that she can read this... lololol she ignored me, BUT!

You've just proven lyricaldanichan's point that masturbation is not accepted.  The second someone says that masturbation might be equivalent to sex, they're accused of not having had sex or at least not being very good at it.  People get socially put down when they say such things.  Such attitudes against masturbation are no different from bigotry against homosexuality.

Uh. How did she prove at all that masturbation isn't accepted? The second someone says that masturbation might be the equivalent of sex... THAT SHOWS THEY HAVEN'T HAD SEX OR THEY AREN'T GOOD AT IT. Because in reality... they aren't comparable. People get socially put down when they say such things... because it's STUPID! Such attitudes isn't even close to being bigotry. It's a plain statement.

It's like saying "Kissing is great and all, but it's not like sex at all". ZOMG... I am being a bigot towards kissing now, aren't I. I am TOTALLY PROVING that kissing is not socially accepted. Because I am stating that they are not the same, and one is a better physical sensation than the other! PS... it's scientifically proven.

That's like bigotry towards homosexuals too... right?

I don't think we know how many people would naturally prefer masturbation over sex if they weren't socially pressured to do so by all the peer pressure asserting that sex is somehow better.  I think some people do talk themselves into considering masturbation inferior to sex because they're insecure enough to listen to people who tell them that considering sex and masturbation equivalent is "god damned stupid".  If such attitudes against masturbation were gone, we would at least stop people (especially teenagers) from trying to "score" just because they want to prove something.  Fixing attitudes would stop the "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon.  Better yet, social acceptance of masturbation would prevent problems in those who keep doing it because it wasn't really that good for them (and may never been that good for them -- maybe autosexuality is as valid a preference as homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality), but they're told that it's only because they're doing it "wrong", and it's some amazing holy grail if they do it right, so they do riskier and riskier things (like trying it without condoms) trying to get it "right".

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHHAHAHA HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Masturbation has proven to be less stimulating, sex has been proven to be more stimulating ala studies. They measure brain activity blah blah blah blah besides the point.

Sex is "somehow" better? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh man. This is just hilarious. Someone who has sex, and also masturbates knows the difference. There's no social pressure about it. There are advantages to masturbation, and everyone knows and accepts that. But there is no social pressure in "preference". You realize that... right? Even if someone says they like sex better to be all cool and fit in(hypothetically of course, because this is just ridiculous, and a conversation that NEVER COMES UP) to their friends while talking about which they prefer, sex or masturbation...

...That doesn't reflect into practice.

If people merely stated they preferred sex, why are so many guys going out there trying to get women? Why are so many girls at bars trying to get picked up by a guy? Why do guys get prostitutes?

If your little stupid rant were even remotely true... no one would go pay money for prostitutes because it's only a "social pressure" that they like sex more. But this isn't a social issue, because these issues are private. Most guys aren't showing videos of themselves sleeping with prostitutes to friends to show how much they love sex over masturbation.

Well I will give you a positive... you didn't sound too much like a teacher this time.

[RaddaX2]

And even then, people are ABLE to have sex while preventing pregnancy with AVAILABLE technology. Why should they masturbate instead when they have the option to have safe sex?

Why did you even bring up this utterly pointless suggestion? How does this contribute ANYTHING at all?

Not that I disagree with you and pyron about how acceptable masturbation is in most societies but don't be so quick to dismiss her idea.  She was probably thinking about masturbation as a way of abstinence.  For those who can't shake their minds off that 1%-3% it's an option with a 100% success rate and to say it's stupid/outdated is silly.  It may not work for you but for other couples it's just fine.



Anyways, on the original topic of whether or not guys should split the cost... tsk whatever I'll pay for it.  What's a $40 to a G, amirite fellas?

[PyronIkari]

Not that I disagree with you and pyron about how acceptable masturbation is in most societies but don't be so quick to dismiss her idea.  She was probably thinking about masturbation as a way of abstinence.  For those who can't shake their minds off that 1%-3% it's an option with a 100% success rate and to say it's stupid/outdated is silly.  It may not work for you but for other couples it's just fine.



Anyways, on the original topic of whether or not guys should split the cost... tsk whatever I'll pay for it.  What's a $40 to a G, amirite fellas?

Abstinence != Masturbation

It isn't silly, nor outdated. Abstinence is for those that want to practice it. It's not stupid per say... but isn't what the subject is about.

She said that masturbation isn't accepted. Once again... isn't abstinence. Abstinence isn't not accepted, but it's not promoted as the greatest thing in the world or anything like that.

The issue with this is that, it goes against the ideas of "educating". If people want to have sex, or if they feel they should have sex, they will.  So it's about educating people about it. It's about teaching people how to practice safe sex. Everyone knows abstinence is the best form of birth control, but telling people that isn't going to help someone who is going to have sex prevent pregnancy.

[Nyxyin]

Gender aside, how is mutual masturbation different from homosexual sex?

Her suggestion was that the solution to unwanted pregnancies and STDs are... *drumroll* MASTURBATION! Anyone with knowledge of both masturbation and sex would be able to understand how that suggestion is utterly stupid.

And yet, "the doctors at The Cleveland Clinic Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology" didn't recognize the suggestion as being "utterly stupid" enough to correct when they did a peer review of this:

Masturbation also is a safe sexual alternative for people who wish to avoid pregnancy and the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases.

It's also partly a semantic problem.  Going back to the first line of this response, depending on which dictionary people use, "coitus" is defined to require a male penis inside a female vagina, and "masturbation" is defined to be any genital stimulation short of "coitus".  Logically, this makes homosexual sex a subset of masturbation.  Saying that "masturbation" isn't equal to "sex" would be saying that homosexual sex isn't equal to sex as well.

But apparently, implying that she lacks knowledge means that I'm just as bad as homo-beating narrow-minded conservatives.

At the very least, implying that lyricaldanichan lacks knowledge about sex seems likely to be simply wrong.  She's married.  http://forums.fanime.com/index.php/topic,4039.msg89697.html#msg89697

[ewu]

yes masturbation may work as a form of abstinence, but for how many? That is why so many educators are against an abstinence-only sex ed program. It does not work.

Teens that take pledges or are educated in abstinence-only programs are more likely to get pregnant. Those that don't get pregnant are either very very lucky or have used contraceptives (that they have not been educated about).

an interesting site tho:
http://aclu.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=683

and a nice BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3846687.stm

[Jun-Watarase]

Gender aside, how is mutual masturbation different from homosexual sex?

Her suggestion was that the solution to unwanted pregnancies and STDs are... *drumroll* MASTURBATION! Anyone with knowledge of both masturbation and sex would be able to understand how that suggestion is utterly stupid.

And yet, "the doctors at The Cleveland Clinic Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology" didn't recognize the suggestion as being "utterly stupid" enough to correct when they did a peer review of this:

Masturbation also is a safe sexual alternative for people who wish to avoid pregnancy and the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases.

It's also partly a semantic problem.  Going back to the first line of this response, depending on which dictionary people use, "coitus" is defined to require a male penis inside a female vagina, and "masturbation" is defined to be any genital stimulation short of "coitus".  Logically, this makes homosexual sex a subset of masturbation.  Saying that "masturbation" isn't equal to "sex" would be saying that homosexual sex isn't equal to sex as well.

THEN IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED SEX, NOT MASTURBATION. If two homosexuals were engaging in sex, and "masturbating" each other... IT WOULD BE SEX. Sex isn't just a man sticking his penis in a woman's vagina. It's a shared activity between two people with the mutual goal of gaining pleasure by engaging in sexual activity, regardless of gender, sex, and orientation, with mental aspects of love and lust.

And yes, it is a sexual alternative, which I never said it wasn't. If you want to bring up a broad category, anyway, but again, missing the point. What else is a sexual alternative? Oh yeah, oral. What else? Feeling each other up, humping, making out, it goes on.... They're all sexual alternatives, but they're still DIFFERENT THINGS.

It's stupid to imply that they would be a great alternative to sex to prevent pregnancy and STDs... despite there being methods of having sex while still preventing the same. The only reason why it'd be an adequate replacement for sex if it were for the sake of abstinence, if people refused to have sex before marriage.

But apparently, implying that she lacks knowledge means that I'm just as bad as homo-beating narrow-minded conservatives.

At the very least, implying that lyricaldanichan lacks knowledge about sex seems likely to be simply wrong.  She's married.  http://forums.fanime.com/index.php/topic,4039.msg89697.html#msg89697

And yet, it still doesn't change the stupidity of the suggestion. Just because someone is married doesn't mean they are an exception to stupidity and poor sexual savv.

[lyricaldanichan]

Exactly.

Sex is so blurred that people forget that there is consequences with doing "it". I guess it is so un-cool and un-sexy to have birth control? If people are pounded in the head about sexual education, we will still have issues with unexpected pregnancies. The movie Idiocracy explain this aspect very well.

I take it that you've never had a sexual partner, otherwise you wouldn't be saying so god damned stupid.

You've just proven lyricaldanichan's point that masturbation is not accepted.  The second someone says that masturbation might be equivalent to sex, they're accused of not having had sex or at least not being very good at it.  People get socially put down when they say such things.  Such attitudes against masturbation are no different from bigotry against homosexuality.

I don't think we know how many people would naturally prefer masturbation over sex if they weren't socially pressured to do so by all the peer pressure asserting that sex is somehow better.  I think some people do talk themselves into considering masturbation inferior to sex because they're insecure enough to listen to people who tell them that considering sex and masturbation equivalent is "god damned stupid".  If such attitudes against masturbation were gone, we would at least stop people (especially teenagers) from trying to "score" just because they want to prove something.  Fixing attitudes would stop the "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon.  Better yet, social acceptance of masturbation would prevent problems in those who keep doing it because it wasn't really that good for them (and may never been that good for them -- maybe autosexuality is as valid a preference as homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality), but they're told that it's only because they're doing it "wrong", and it's some amazing holy grail if they do it right, so they do riskier and riskier things (like trying it without condoms) trying to get it "right".

[Nyxyin]

THEN IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED SEX, NOT MASTURBATION.

I'm trying to say that masturbation (at least mutual masturbation) is sex.  As long as "masturbation" is not considered "sex", then it does not qualify as sufficiently "socially accepted".  Saying masturbation is a sexual alternative that is still not sex is the exactly the same "separate but equal" situation in which people are saying that "domestic partnership" is just as good as "marriage".

[cortana]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Mutual Masturbation (e.g., you pleasuring yourself along with someone else doing the same to themselves), is nothing more than a time killer with a friend. Sure, it feels good, but in the end, it's not nearly as fulfilling or stimulating as a cooperative sex act. If the other person is doing the act on you, while you're doing it to them, then it IS a sex act, even if it's at the lower end of the scale. Sex certainly does not require penetration, as the real measure of it is being intimate with another person(s).

[ewu]

the great thing is that mutual masturbation can still transfer STDs:) fluids from one person to another....Kids, that's how cooties spread!

[Nyxyin]

Re: cortana.  Thank you for using explicit definitions.  You have every right to your definitions, and I acknowledge them.  If I were to translate the way I read lyricaldanichan's words to yours, they would read "If 'non-penetrative sex' were more accepted as 'real sex' in society we wouldn't have so many teens having babies and people who shouldn't have kids in the first place".

As I mentioned, it's partly a semantic argument: people -- and even dictionaries -- differ on what they consider to be "masturbation".  There is no real overall difference between masturbation and sex except in people's concept of the words, and such concepts vary from person to person (and from dictionary to dictionary).

manual stimulation of the genital organs (of yourself or another) for sexual pleasure

the stimulation, by manual or other means exclusive of coitus, of another's genitals, esp. to orgasm.

Sexual union between a male and a female involving insertion of the penis into the vagina.

the act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the man's penis is inserted into the woman's vagina and excited until orgasm and ejaculation occur

Sexual union between a male and a female involving insertion of the penis into the vagina

physical union of male and female genitalia accompanied by rhythmic movements leading to the ejaculation of semen from the penis into the female reproductive tract

Depending on which dictionaries people use, "masturbation" can be any genital stimulation that doesn't involve a male penis going into a female vagina, which can include touching the other person.  If "non-penetrative sex" is sex, then "masturbation" is also sex for people who use those dictionaries.  Words change meaning when they cross from person to person.  The people who think masturbation is not a substitute for sex may be hung up on their definition that masturbation means not touching the other person or something, but it doesn't make people stupid for following a different dictionary and having a different definition of masturbation.

Words are very often confusing.  For example, what do people think "prodigal" means?  Now, look it up in a dictionary.  People have been using the term incorrectly so often and long that the "common" definition has started to make its way into a few dictionaries.  However, the now-common usage was originally not correct, and so the word is now ambiguous when used.  I came across a case in which "prodigal" was used correctly, in the dictionary sense, and a bunch of self-appointed "grammar gurus" jumped all over how "stupid" the usage was, with a whole lot of people joining them, even though the majority of the dictionaries still reflect the original usage, not the now-common parable-based one.  I recognize the validity of both prescriptive and descriptive usages, and I recognize the validity of people having a preference for one over the other, but I do not recognize the validity of calling people stupid for their preference.

In any case, thank you for explaining your terms, and semantics aside, we seem to fully agree about the underlying concept that sex does not require penetration -- or risk of pregnancy.  So, I go back to my interpretation of lyricaldanichan's point: if more people fully recognized the validity and enjoyment of non-penetrative forms of sex, then there would be fewer teenage pregnancies.

If people are using different definitions of words, it might mean that they're only unfamiliar with the terminology used by the active "in crowd", not that they're "stupid".

the great thing is that mutual masturbation can still transfer STDs:) fluids from one person to another....Kids, that's how cooties spread!

Yes, I noticed that earlier, but I figured I took care of it with the "semantic" paragraph.  Technically, lyricaldanichan didn't say anything about STDs, only birth control, so mutual masturbation seems to be included in lyricaldanichan's version of "masturbation".  It's JunWatarase who initially stuck in the STD bit, and when using her version of the word "masturbation", the term doesn't seem to include mutual masturbation.  I apologize for relying on context and not explicitly notating the definition of the terms when I used them.  I knew the definitions were a problem, and I thought I said so, but I seem to have failed to be sufficiently explicit in my clarification.

[Tony]

Wow. So. Well. I'll do it. I'll participate in the hijack.

But first, to respond to the actual topic, which was about Abby's advice:
I think Abby is wrong. It depends a bit on whether the BCPs are being used as a contraceptive, true. But in general, contraception protects both partners, and so it's not unreasonable for one to ask for help from the other in paying for it.

Gender aside, how is mutual masturbation different from homosexual sex?

One is a subset of the other, in common usage. My answer is "mostly different".

And yet, "the doctors at The Cleveland Clinic Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology" didn't recognize the suggestion as being "utterly stupid" enough to correct when they did a peer review of this:

Masturbation also is a safe sexual alternative for people who wish to avoid pregnancy and the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases.

Correct, but they state nothing about its efficacy. That's the biggest drawback to that strategy, charming though it is. It's advice of the same quality as "shooting at your enemy can win a war."

It's also partly a semantic problem.  Going back to the first line of this response, depending on which dictionary people use, "coitus" is defined to require a male penis inside a female vagina, and "masturbation" is defined to be any genital stimulation short of "coitus".

You are correct, but in common usage, masturbation is almost always defined as self-stimulation, usually manual.

Logically, this makes homosexual sex a subset of masturbation.

Right, but that usage of the word is not common. That's a deduction based on a false premise.

Saying that "masturbation" isn't equal to "sex" would be saying that homosexual sex isn't equal to sex as well.

It... isn't... even using your definition. Homosexual sex is a proper subset of sex, and so the two are by definition unequal.

The people who think masturbation is not a substitute for sex may be hung up on their definition that masturbation means not touching the other person or something, but it doesn't make people stupid for following a different dictionary and having a different definition of masturbation.

Not necessarily - they could still be wrong under their definition! Pyron may be making the point that no other act can substitute for coitus, regardless of what you call that act.

Words are very often confusing.  ...

There, that was sufficient.

I recognize the validity of both prescriptive and descriptive usages, and I recognize the validity of people having a preference for one over the other, but I do not recognize the validity of calling people stupid for their preference.

There's a mutual mistake, though: Pyron is assuming the usage was descriptive, while you're assuming the usage was prescriptive. Frankly, I think it's more reasonable to assume descriptive usage; it's unreasonable to assume people are using the uncommon meanings.

lyricaldanichan's point: if more people fully recognized the validity and enjoyment of non-penetrative forms of sex, then there would be fewer teenage pregnancies.

That's more agreeable. But are you sure? I'm not calling for a cite, and I'm not looking to provide a counter-cite, but consider that both sexual activity and pregnancy is supposedly increasing among teenagers. IF that's true - and that's a big one - that would mean teenagers are enjoying those alternatives and yet pregnancies are increasing regardless.

If people are using different definitions of words, it might mean that they're only unfamiliar with the terminology used by the active "in crowd", not that they're "stupid".

The solution is simple. "Maybe you misunderstood. What I meant was..."

I hope this has been sufficiently pedantic!

[Runewitt]

wasn't the original topic of this thread something about sharing the cost of contrceptives? what are the chances of going back to that discussion?

[ewu]

feel free to bring it back...

[Runewitt]

:: resists urge to say "Im bringin sexy back" ::

partners should share the cost of the contraceptives they use, unless one or the other prefers to pay the cost themselves. i know that i'm willing to split the bill fairly.