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Xeluu

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2008, 03:57:55 AM »

...get rid of the signs then people glomp blindly. ...
Actually, I found this year there was less random glomping. >_> Dunno if that's to be attributed to the lack of signs or not, but I personally found it better this year.
Probably because people are afraid of someone calling the cops on them.
Perhaps. I dunno why, don't think anyone can say exactly WHY either. Just stating what I saw. Perhaps the lack of the signs kept things a bit calmer? I dunno.
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narutofan17

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2008, 04:02:55 AM »

...get rid of the signs then people glomp blindly. ...
Actually, I found this year there was less random glomping. >_> Dunno if that's to be attributed to the lack of signs or not, but I personally found it better this year.
Probably because people are afraid of someone calling the cops on them.
Perhaps. I dunno why, don't think anyone can say exactly WHY either. Just stating what I saw. Perhaps the lack of the signs kept things a bit calmer? I dunno.
Eh, I told myself I wouldn't really get into it. I just feel like all the post about glomping scared people into not doing it. Sounds like manipulation to me. Like I said though, I ain't goin to even trip about it anymore. I go to Fanime to have fun. Not not worry about this stuff.
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Nyxyin

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2008, 04:14:36 AM »

Saying that "glomp me" signs lead to harassment and/or stalking is like saying that playing video games makes children violent.  There is no reason to ban the signs themselves any more than there is to ban people from playing video games.  Besides, the lack of a sign doesn't prevent people from harassing others.  The basic premise that the signs need to be banned is fundamentally wrong.  So is the idea that signs and T-shirts are different.  If a phrase on a sign is soliciting, then it's just as much soliciting if it's on a T-shirt.  And what about pre-printed signs?  If "glomp me" T-shirts are allowed because of a certain mindset that comes with having put the shirt on that morning, shouldn't it be allowed on pre-printed foam signs too because they had to have printed it the night before?

By the way, if a glomp is a running hug, then glomping itself is already technically banned.  The hug part doesn't seem to be an issue, but there is supposed to be no running in the convention center.  Stalking and harassing are likewise already banned.  Besides, hugs and glomps don't necessarily lead to stalking and harassment.  Again, that's like saying that playing video games makes people violent, so video games should be banned.  Going into random details about whether there's a sign or not, whether it's on a T-shirt or a sign, whether it's hand-drawn on the spot or pre-printed, none of these things address the fundamental issues that people were apparently running, harassing, and stalking.  Those are the things that endanger others.  Holding signs and wearing shirts do not.  If they're running, nail them on running.  Running in crowded places is dangerous, and it's against the rules.  If they're stalking or harassing people, then nail them on that.  Holding a sign by itself is not a direct danger to anybody, which is why people keep complaining about the enforcement of that rule.  Claiming that signs by themselves lead to stalking and harassment and injury is very similar to the leap those protesters made when claiming that watching anime leads people to be evil and not believe in Jesus.  There are plenty of Christian anime fans.  The signs, like anime, are unrelated scapegoats.

Obviously, FanimeCon management can make and enforce whatever rules it wants; it's their con.  But, for Fanime to truly be "by fans, for fans", its management should show some restraint and not abuse that power.  Yes, people appreciate not getting physically attacked and having their costumes destroyed, but signs by themselves don't hurt people or destroy costumes.  Ban running.  Ban physical assaults.  Any reasonable person can understand that.  It's a lot less reasonable to ban signs because holding a sign by itself doesn't do anything.  Again, banning signs is like banning anime and video games in an attempt to make people less violent.  Saying that making signs demonstrates a certain mindset that leads to certain behavior borders on policing thought, and most people seem to agree that the thought police is a bad thing.

As for observations of less glomping this year, there were a lot of differences between 2007 and 2008, and it's hard to say what caused the change.  For example, less glomping could be the result of having twice as many SOS enforcers on the floor taking a more active part in keeping things under control.  Maybe the mere presence of so many SOS enforcers would've been enough to suppress random glomping regardless of their policy towards signs.
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narutofan17

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2008, 04:31:38 AM »

Saying that "glomp me" signs lead to harassment and/or stalking is like saying that playing video games makes children violent.  There is no reason to ban the signs themselves any more than there is to ban people from playing video games.  Besides, the lack of a sign doesn't prevent people from harassing others.  The basic premise that the signs need to be banned is fundamentally wrong.  So is the idea that signs and T-shirts are different.  If a phrase on a sign is soliciting, then it's just as much soliciting if it's on a T-shirt.  And what about pre-printed signs?  If "glomp me" T-shirts are allowed because of a certain mindset that comes with having put the shirt on that morning, shouldn't it be allowed on pre-printed foam signs too because they had to have printed it the night before?

By the way, if a glomp is a running hug, then glomping itself is already technically banned.  The hug part doesn't seem to be an issue, but there is supposed to be no running in the convention center.  Stalking and harassing are likewise already banned.  Besides, hugs and glomps don't necessarily lead to stalking and harassment.  Again, that's like saying that playing video games makes people violent, so video games should be banned.  Going into random details about whether there's a sign or not, whether it's on a T-shirt or a sign, whether it's hand-drawn on the spot or pre-printed, none of these things address the fundamental issues that people were apparently running, harassing, and stalking.  Those are the things that endanger others.  Holding signs and wearing shirts do not.  If they're running, nail them on running.  Running in crowded places is dangerous, and it's against the rules.  If they're stalking or harassing people, then nail them on that.  Holding a sign by itself is not a direct danger to anybody, which is why people keep complaining about the enforcement of that rule.  Claiming that signs by themselves lead to stalking and harassment and injury is very similar to the leap those protesters made when claiming that watching anime leads people to be evil and not believe in Jesus.  There are plenty of Christian anime fans.  The signs, like anime, are unrelated scapegoats.

Obviously, FanimeCon management can make and enforce whatever rules it wants; it's their con.  But, for Fanime to truly be "by fans, for fans", its management should show some restraint and not abuse that power.  Yes, people appreciate not getting physically attacked and having their costumes destroyed, but signs by themselves don't hurt people or destroy costumes.  Ban running.  Ban physical assaults.  Any reasonable person can understand that.  It's a lot less reasonable to ban signs because holding a sign by itself doesn't do anything.  Again, banning signs is like banning anime and video games in an attempt to make people less violent.  Saying that making signs demonstrates a certain mindset that leads to certain behavior borders on policing thought, and most people seem to agree that the thought police is a bad thing.

As for observations of less glomping this year, there were a lot of differences between 2007 and 2008, and it's hard to say what caused the change.  For example, less glomping could be the result of having twice as many SOS enforcers on the floor taking a more active part in keeping things under control.  Maybe the mere presence of so many SOS enforcers would've been enough to suppress random glomping regardless of their policy towards signs.

I can tell you why. It's because of stuff like http://youtube.com/watch?v=1x4j2O63Ccc and http://youtube.com/watch?v=3NPAceC3bEM&feature=related and http://youtube.com/watch?v=-4mbnHkRbJs&feature=related. Watch those and tell me they weren't tryin to scare people into not glompin
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Stormfalcon

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2008, 08:04:25 AM »

Whether it was the previous flamewars on the subject, the Glomp Responsibly videos, increased awareness on the subject, or just plain better enforcement, the end results were good.  The significant reductions in signs and glomping made Fanime '08 a better, more enjoyable con than it has been in the past few years, and I'd like for that to continue.
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Evangelion Xgouki

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2008, 09:35:50 AM »

Ah, the various Glomp Me signs.  While I'm not outright against their use at Fanime, some regulations do need to be done about them.  Making the signs out of fun and in the spirit of the con is perfectly fine by be, but when people make such signs in hopes of just being able to get physical contact...not cool.  The signs that say "Will <X> for <X>" really get to me though.  They just don't seem...proper given the demographic of the convention.  Especially the ages of the people who actually are using the signs.  While stricter rules might not always be a solution, it is one of the safest ways for Fanime to protect themselves should something happen when people aren't being responsible. 

As for the enforcement of policies...you kinda have to take it in stride.  The rules are there and the staffers/volunteers know the rules.  But that does not mean that they interpret them all in the same way.  For example, I've used my wooden sword with sheath for at least 3 Fanimes now.  It stands over 5 feet long and has the blade spray painted silver to look some-what like metal.  The only time I've had a problem was last year.  Going to get it peacebonded, the person on duty said that it had to be bonded TO MY BODY.  I kinda blinked and stared at her funny.  Then I stated how it would be next to impossible to sit down should the sword be strapped to my belt and tied down.  It took a while, but eventually it was just peacebonded shut.  This was the only time I've ever had an issue with it.  Every other time and at other cons they looked at the blade and just told me to be careful with it.  Not really any different than all those really long Sephiroth swords I see.  Mine just has a sheath  :P.  Just remember: if you have an issue and feel that you are being judged improperly, ask to speak with someone higher up.  Don't get into a huge argument or blow up.  That will only make the situation worse.
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Mr Anime

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2008, 12:49:23 PM »

They pretty are simple, it's just that you(and others) are trying to complicate things. Don't make "Glomp me" signs or other stuff.

What is complicated about this?

They are simple and there's nothing complicated about them, but yet people still managed to show up with signs. I saw a few people walk into the dealer's room with "Hug Me!" and "Glomp Me" signs, yet the two staff members that were posted at the door checking people's badges didn't take the signs away. Guess some staff members just let things slide sometimes.
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Steve.Young

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2008, 12:57:03 PM »

They pretty are simple, it's just that you(and others) are trying to complicate things. Don't make "Glomp me" signs or other stuff.

What is complicated about this?

They are simple and there's nothing complicated about them, but yet people still managed to show up with signs. I saw a few people walk into the dealer's room with "Hug Me!" and "Glomp Me" signs, yet the two staff members that were posted at the door checking people's badges didn't take the signs away. Guess some staff members just let things slide sometimes.

More than likely, they were volunteers, and/or they were uninformed. Sometimes other departments other than SOS don't have all the policies up to date and ingrained in them >.>

There are worse rules than no signs that solicit. If you honestly want to get into an argument over that, there are far worse things that could be banned but aren't because the Fanime higher ups aren't stupid.
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narutofan17

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2008, 01:08:24 PM »

Whether it was the previous flamewars on the subject, the Glomp Responsibly videos, increased awareness on the subject, or just plain better enforcement, the end results were good.  The significant reductions in signs and glomping made Fanime '08 a better, more enjoyable con than it has been in the past few years, and I'd like for that to continue.

Come on. There are other ways with dealing with the situation then using some big black dudes to scare the crap out of people into doing the "right thing" during Fanime. I've seen that before...in mafia movies. XD
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narutofan17

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2008, 01:17:38 PM »

They pretty are simple, it's just that you(and others) are trying to complicate things. Don't make "Glomp me" signs or other stuff.

What is complicated about this?

They are simple and there's nothing complicated about them, but yet people still managed to show up with signs. I saw a few people walk into the dealer's room with "Hug Me!" and "Glomp Me" signs, yet the two staff members that were posted at the door checking people's badges didn't take the signs away. Guess some staff members just let things slide sometimes.

More than likely, they were volunteers, and/or they were uninformed. Sometimes other departments other than SOS don't have all the policies up to date and ingrained in them >.>

There are worse rules than no signs that solicit. If you honestly want to get into an argument over that, there are far worse things that could be banned but aren't because the Fanime higher ups aren't stupid.
I won't say I'm not upset about signs being banned because I am but if it's a rule I have to follow I have no choice. I'm just kinda annoyed that the topic keeps coming up over and over again. I just feel even by getting rid of the signs you still going to have those rare amount of people that don't as the videos said "glomp responsibly." I feel like the majority gets blamed for something a small amount of people are doing.
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Steve.Young

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2008, 01:31:03 PM »

That's kinda how life works too.

A small group of people who are irresponsible ruins the fun for everyone.
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narutofan17

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #111 on: June 02, 2008, 01:39:59 PM »

That's kinda how life works too.

A small group of people who are irresponsible ruins the fun for everyone.
Yeah I know...it's not cool but I know.
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PyronIkari

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #112 on: June 02, 2008, 03:01:07 PM »

I honestly dread reading your "serious" posts... because the logic behind them make absolutely no sense. You just randomly cling on to something that is SORT OF like the situation and claim and bitch and scream that it's not right in that situation so IT CAN'T BE RIGHT in the second... even though the two situations are not the same.

Saying that "glomp me" signs lead to harassment and/or stalking is like saying that playing video games makes children violent.  There is no reason to ban the signs themselves any more than there is to ban people from playing video games.  Besides, the lack of a sign doesn't prevent people from harassing others.  The basic premise that the signs need to be banned is fundamentally wrong.  So is the idea that signs and T-shirts are different.  If a phrase on a sign is soliciting, then it's just as much soliciting if it's on a T-shirt.  And what about pre-printed signs?  If "glomp me" T-shirts are allowed because of a certain mindset that comes with having put the shirt on that morning, shouldn't it be allowed on pre-printed foam signs too because they had to have printed it the night before?
Saying that "glomp me" signs lead to harassment and/or stalking is not like saying that playing video game leads to making children violent. The latter is an exposure to graphic nature. The theory behind this is that... if kids see violence they will mimic it. The major key points are that, they are children, and that they MIGHT blindly be mimicing something.

The Glomp Me signs is a theory that "If I have a sign, I will get what is written on the sign and nothing can stop me". Are you completely ignoring the multiple people that have said guys would follow them around holding the signs in front of girls' faces expecting them to do it? There is absolutely no way to deny that it takes place as it happens constantly and in large number. We're not talking about children here, we're talking about young adults, some in their 20's here doing this. This is about social adeptness more than anything else.

Quote
By the way, if a glomp is a running hug, then glomping itself is already technically banned.  The hug part doesn't seem to be an issue, but there is supposed to be no running in the convention center.  Stalking and harassing are likewise already banned.  Besides, hugs and glomps don't necessarily lead to stalking and harassment.  Again, that's like saying that playing video games makes people violent, so video games should be banned.  Going into random details about whether there's a sign or not, whether it's on a T-shirt or a sign, whether it's hand-drawn on the spot or pre-printed, none of these things address the fundamental issues that people were apparently running, harassing, and stalking.  Those are the things that endanger others.  Holding signs and wearing shirts do not.  If they're running, nail them on running.  Running in crowded places is dangerous, and it's against the rules.  If they're stalking or harassing people, then nail them on that.  Holding a sign by itself is not a direct danger to anybody, which is why people keep complaining about the enforcement of that rule.  Claiming that signs by themselves lead to stalking and harassment and injury is very similar to the leap those protesters made when claiming that watching anime leads people to be evil and not believe in Jesus.  There are plenty of Christian anime fans.  The signs, like anime, are unrelated scapegoats.
OH HO, now you're arguing schemantics. Hugs and glomps are not banned. This entire paragraph has no point in being in here. Once more your ENTIRE DAMN COMPARISON IS WRONG BECAUSE YOU DON'T ATTEMPT TO TRY AND FIND LIKE SITUATIONS.  When hugs and glomps are banned completely, you MIGHT be able to compare it to banning video games. Too bad they're not and this entire paragraph DOESN'T APPLY.

As for scapegoats... they're not. I can give one very simple example. Fire hazards. A staff member proudly proclaimed how he had a hug me sign in 2007. That staff member worked the door at e-gaming. More than multiple times I would see groups of people hugging said staff member. The door to the e-gaming room would be blocked almost entirely. This is a fire hazard. This happened because of the sign.

I will make a comparison similar to yours now, just so you can understand. Live steel is banned from the conventions correct? Why? If someone gets hurt, it's not the swords fault, it's clearly the person that is holding the sword. It's clearly the responisibility of the person that did not properly keep that sword from hurting someone.

The basis is that, the object directly promotes danger and irresponsible actions from happening. No one is stating that hugging or glomping itself is bad, or should be banned. But the sign promotes irresponsible behavior by not doing things in responsible places, not being aware of your surroundings and basic awareness over all. It's an open invitation for bad things to happen to the sign wearer(as I stated, it's really easy to steal from someone you're hugging)... and people use it as an excuse to act inappropriately.

In general, people don't know how to act at conventions. Why give them another reason to act inappropriately?

Quote
Obviously, FanimeCon management can make and enforce whatever rules it wants; it's their con.  But, for Fanime to truly be "by fans, for fans", its management should show some restraint and not abuse that power.  Yes, people appreciate not getting physically attacked and having their costumes destroyed, but signs by themselves don't hurt people or destroy costumes.  Ban running.  Ban physical assaults.  Any reasonable person can understand that.  It's a lot less reasonable to ban signs because holding a sign by itself doesn't do anything.  Again, banning signs is like banning anime and video games in an attempt to make people less violent.  Saying that making signs demonstrates a certain mindset that leads to certain behavior borders on policing thought, and most people seem to agree that the thought police is a bad thing.
As for it to be "by fans, for fans" it's management should take basic practices to protect the attendees from harm. How are they abbusing powers? They are taking an extra precaution because said problem has been around for years, and it's not as if Fanime is the only convention to recognize it? They could have outright banned signs completely like many other conventions have done, but they choose not to. They wanted to target ONLY the ones that seem to cause a problem.

Quote
As for observations of less glomping this year, there were a lot of differences between 2007 and 2008, and it's hard to say what caused the change.  For example, less glomping could be the result of having twice as many SOS enforcers on the floor taking a more active part in keeping things under control.  Maybe the mere presence of so many SOS enforcers would've been enough to suppress random glomping regardless of their policy towards signs.

Bull, because most people didn't know who were and were not roavers. This chain of logic is horrible. "It might not have been signs that changed this, SO YOU SHOULD BRING SIGNS BACK!" Obviously something was done right this year, as the problem was FAR FAR FAR FAR better. Just to let you know, other cons have also shown a decrease in random glompings etc. after they banned signs or enforced some rule about signs being carried.
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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #113 on: June 02, 2008, 06:39:54 PM »

You know we can't really surmise the reasons why or why not certain things are banned unless we get something from those that establish those policies. I will request that we get some formal thing about signs set up, but that will take a while.

Until then this thread is locked. We getting too personal and straying from the discussion of signs.

Thanks:)
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