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VampireAlucard

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2008, 11:13:00 PM »

Within Fanime, at least, glomping and hugs are considered solicitation. You've seen it become increasingly problematic, so "soliciting" is as blunt as it was described-- offering services and/or goods in any fashion Fanime's organization doesn't approve of. It disturbs the public-- it's just for Fanime to try to intervene and do something about it.
I actually have a funny story involving being told by staff that I had to change my sign. The last day I bought a Cactuar plushie and decided to tape it to my badge and then tape a sign to my badge that said "Hug me, I grant wishes", so it looked like the sign was on the Cactuar. I came across a staff member who told me that I couldn't have "hug me" on the sign because it was solicitation. I told her "It's not on me, it's on the Cactuar", so she calls the main desk and tells them "we have a hug me sign but it's not on the person, it's on the cactus". One can only wonder what the main desk was wondering when she told them a cactus was wearing a "hug me" sign. I eventually had to change the sign, but she still wanted a hug after.
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rude32

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2008, 11:19:50 PM »

Within Fanime, at least, glomping and hugs are considered solicitation. You've seen it become increasingly problematic, so "soliciting" is as blunt as it was described-- offering services and/or goods in any fashion Fanime's organization doesn't approve of. It disturbs the public-- it's just for Fanime to try to intervene and do something about it.
I actually have a funny story involving being told by staff that I had to change my sign. The last day I bought a Cactuar plushie and decided to tape it to my badge and then tape a sign to my badge that said "Hug me, I grant wishes", so it looked like the sign was on the Cactuar. I came across a staff member who told me that I couldn't have "hug me" on the sign because it was solicitation. I told her "It's not on me, it's on the Cactuar", so she calls the main desk and tells them "we have a hug me sign but it's not on the person, it's on the cactus". One can only wonder what the main desk was wondering when she told them a cactus was wearing a "hug me" sign. I eventually had to change the sign, but she still wanted a hug after.
You should have told her to hug a cactus.
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PyronIkari

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2008, 11:22:46 PM »

Within Fanime, at least, glomping and hugs are considered solicitation. You've seen it become increasingly problematic, so "soliciting" is as blunt as it was described-- offering services and/or goods in any fashion Fanime's organization doesn't approve of. It disturbs the public-- it's just for Fanime to try to intervene and do something about it.
I actually have a funny story involving being told by staff that I had to change my sign. The last day I bought a Cactuar plushie and decided to tape it to my badge and then tape a sign to my badge that said "Hug me, I grant wishes", so it looked like the sign was on the Cactuar. I came across a staff member who told me that I couldn't have "hug me" on the sign because it was solicitation. I told her "It's not on me, it's on the Cactuar", so she calls the main desk and tells them "we have a hug me sign but it's not on the person, it's on the cactus". One can only wonder what the main desk was wondering when she told them a cactus was wearing a "hug me" sign. I eventually had to change the sign, but she still wanted a hug after.

See, it's things like this that piss off staff members. You obviously knew that the con didn't allow the signs, so what did you do? Try to go around the rules(in a very unwitty way). Not to prove a point or anything, not to try an acomplish anything, just to be a douche.
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VampireAlucard

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2008, 11:26:31 PM »

Within Fanime, at least, glomping and hugs are considered solicitation. You've seen it become increasingly problematic, so "soliciting" is as blunt as it was described-- offering services and/or goods in any fashion Fanime's organization doesn't approve of. It disturbs the public-- it's just for Fanime to try to intervene and do something about it.
I actually have a funny story involving being told by staff that I had to change my sign. The last day I bought a Cactuar plushie and decided to tape it to my badge and then tape a sign to my badge that said "Hug me, I grant wishes", so it looked like the sign was on the Cactuar. I came across a staff member who told me that I couldn't have "hug me" on the sign because it was solicitation. I told her "It's not on me, it's on the Cactuar", so she calls the main desk and tells them "we have a hug me sign but it's not on the person, it's on the cactus". One can only wonder what the main desk was wondering when she told them a cactus was wearing a "hug me" sign. I eventually had to change the sign, but she still wanted a hug after.

See, it's things like this that piss off staff members. You obviously knew that the con didn't allow the signs, so what did you do? Try to go around the rules(in a very unwitty way). Not to prove a point or anything, not to try an acomplish anything, just to be a douche.

Actually that was my first time at Fanime. I wasn't trying to be a douche, the sign was on the Cactuar. If I wanted to put a "hug me" sign on myself I would've from the beginning of Fanime. When she told me to change it, I did so with no problems. If I really wanted to be a douche I could've made a huge deal about it, but I didn't. Now I know what not to do when I go next year.
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Kaura117

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2008, 11:32:47 PM »

Within Fanime, at least, glomping and hugs are considered solicitation. You've seen it become increasingly problematic, so "soliciting" is as blunt as it was described-- offering services and/or goods in any fashion Fanime's organization doesn't approve of. It disturbs the public-- it's just for Fanime to try to intervene and do something about it.
I actually have a funny story involving being told by staff that I had to change my sign. The last day I bought a Cactuar plushie and decided to tape it to my badge and then tape a sign to my badge that said "Hug me, I grant wishes", so it looked like the sign was on the Cactuar. I came across a staff member who told me that I couldn't have "hug me" on the sign because it was solicitation. I told her "It's not on me, it's on the Cactuar", so she calls the main desk and tells them "we have a hug me sign but it's not on the person, it's on the cactus". One can only wonder what the main desk was wondering when she told them a cactus was wearing a "hug me" sign. I eventually had to change the sign, but she still wanted a hug after.

See, it's things like this that piss off staff members. You obviously knew that the con didn't allow the signs, so what did you do? Try to go around the rules(in a very unwitty way). Not to prove a point or anything, not to try an acomplish anything, just to be a douche.

Mm, I dunno. A "hug me" sign on a cactus has a certain level of satire to it.
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heeroyuy135

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2008, 11:58:14 PM »

Airsoft = bad. Someone walked into the con with a replica M16 with only an orange tip. He was immediately asked to put it away. If viewed upon by a police officer in the wrong angle, that person has the possibility of getting shot......
So what's the difference between that and cosplayers who had their AKs peacebonded by the SOS staff?

Kaura117

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2008, 12:03:03 AM »

Airsoft = bad. Someone walked into the con with a replica M16 with only an orange tip. He was immediately asked to put it away. If viewed upon by a police officer in the wrong angle, that person has the possibility of getting shot......
So what's the difference between that and cosplayers who had their AKs peacebonded by the SOS staff?

Not a whole lot, except that staffers don't necessarily have a monolithic idea on what's acceptable and not acceptable.
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Lacunacraft

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2008, 12:07:31 AM »

I don't think this debate will ever truly end, but I think we also have to take into account the average age of Fanimecon's attendees. I have noticed that there is a lot more high school age and below kids coming to Fanimecon and they genrally aren't as mature as the older attendees.

I also believe that as a whole the Anime Fandom's average fan age has gone down as anime and manga have become more easily accessible. You can get manga in almost any bookstore and all major electronics stores carry at least some anime dvds. Hell, look at how huge the manga section is at Borders and Barnes and Nobles.  Then you also have to take into account the even easier access to content online via torrents, youtube, crunchy roll,  etc.

As the fans get younger, you start running into the "rebelious" teens that always believe the "man" is out to get them, even though they are just trying to make sure they don't hurt themselves. Sure Fanimceon will still mostly be an event that draws really hardcore fans, but you will always have the casual fans that come for a day and may not really care that what they are doing is hurting the con experince for others.

I am not saying that all young fans behave that way, hell I am only nineteen myself. In general, I beleieve having a fanbase that is getting younger is a good thing because that means more people are getting into it at a younger age and it generally is seen as a sign of growth in the fandom.
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heeroyuy135

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2008, 12:42:37 AM »

Airsoft = bad. Someone walked into the con with a replica M16 with only an orange tip. He was immediately asked to put it away. If viewed upon by a police officer in the wrong angle, that person has the possibility of getting shot......
So what's the difference between that and cosplayers who had their AKs peacebonded by the SOS staff?

Not a whole lot, except that staffers don't necessarily have a monolithic idea on what's acceptable and not acceptable.
Some of the staff told me they were experts and they knew the difference between airsoft and a toy gun...um...

Steve.Young

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2008, 12:45:37 AM »

Airsoft = bad. Someone walked into the con with a replica M16 with only an orange tip. He was immediately asked to put it away. If viewed upon by a police officer in the wrong angle, that person has the possibility of getting shot......
So what's the difference between that and cosplayers who had their AKs peacebonded by the SOS staff?

Not a whole lot, except that staffers don't necessarily have a monolithic idea on what's acceptable and not acceptable.
Some of the staff told me they were experts and they knew the difference between airsoft and a toy gun...um...

We had a Cop in the SOS room at one point talking to us, and some people came in and wanted their guns peace bonded. We looked at the cop, asked "If you were in a dim/dark area and saw this about 20 feet away, what would happen?"

For some of the weapons that came through, he basically told us if he would draw his gun or not. I thought that was a neat thing to have, a cop nearby.
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Ayanami Rei First Child

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2008, 01:08:39 AM »

While I can understand stuff about glomp me signs....I had a friend, many of whom you have seen around. He goes around in a white t-shirt with the words "Hug Me" on it. Now because he wrote on it with a marker, instead of oh say...BUYING ONE from the dealer's room with a "Hug Me Logo" thing...he was unable to have it. I mean this guy gets over 600 hugs, and I have NEVER seen him bother ANYONE. I believe that is when you start taking things a bit too far. Hell last year I had my Ryo-Ohki plush holding up a hug sign, and nobody bothered me. There was maybe a few times people didn't want hugs, and I respected that. I told a Staff member later, and he never even told me that doing such a thing was against the rules.

I saw a lot less freely given hugs, as well as glomps. I can understand especially with glomps, but c'mon. Have a little consideration for the people who do.

I also find it reprehensible that just because you have to have an official "Hug Me" T-shirt/Logo in order to wear a Hug Me t-shirt..that's just GREEDY and MEAN
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PyronIkari

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2008, 08:22:37 AM »

While I can understand stuff about glomp me signs....I had a friend, many of whom you have seen around. He goes around in a white t-shirt with the words "Hug Me" on it. Now because he wrote on it with a marker, instead of oh say...BUYING ONE from the dealer's room with a "Hug Me Logo" thing...he was unable to have it. I mean this guy gets over 600 hugs, and I have NEVER seen him bother ANYONE. I believe that is when you start taking things a bit too far. Hell last year I had my Ryo-Ohki plush holding up a hug sign, and nobody bothered me. There was maybe a few times people didn't want hugs, and I respected that. I told a Staff member later, and he never even told me that doing such a thing was against the rules.

I saw a lot less freely given hugs, as well as glomps. I can understand especially with glomps, but c'mon. Have a little consideration for the people who do.

I also find it reprehensible that just because you have to have an official "Hug Me" T-shirt/Logo in order to wear a Hug Me t-shirt..that's just GREEDY and MEAN

This was actually covered at the meeting. This actually applies directly to my first post in this thread. It's not taking things too far. Idiots ruined it for the people that are respectable about it... it's as simple as that. I've been going to cons for over a decade. Signs didn't start  up until around 2000-2001. I had no problem with them to be honest. Sure I thought the people carrying them around were quite pathetic, but that was it, no actual qualm. Now fast forward 4 years... After being hugged randomly dozens of times by people I did not know, and was rather repulsed by (their smell, their looks, and more)... Having guys follow my girlfriend around for about 10 minutes with a sign shoved in their face that says "HUG ME!" or something to that extent, having to wait 10 minutes to get through a hallway because someone with a sign gathered 20 people for a group hug in the center of a hallway, I realized it was an issue beyond just "letting people have fun".

The rule logically makes sense, and prevents a lot of things from happening to people that don't want it happening to them. There is no reason you can't hug people, there's no reason you can't glomp people, you just can't hold up a sign advertizing/soliciting it. Not to sound like an old jaded man, but why would you give out hugs to complete random strangers that you do not know, just because they're holding a sign? If you were walking around on the street and a guy was holding a "hug me" sign... would you hug him? Frankly, a con isn't much different, you can't really trust people just because they "LOLOLOL LIKE ANIMU".

Anyways, more things about my past you didn't need to know. I used to take people's wallets at UCLA just for fun. I'd promptly give it back to them and I did clear it with campus police as "a training excersize for a class". It was experimental theory about people and their awareness.

You guys don't realize how easy it is to steal from someone you're hugging. You apply pressure to their hip, and you can easilly steal a guys wallet without him realizing it, since (if you have any kind of dexterity at all) the feeling of his wallet being removed from the back pocket is exactly the same as the pressure from the sides of their waist.

Hmmm... maybe I should do this at fanime.
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ewu

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2008, 09:22:28 AM »

stealing is illegal, signs are against our code of conduct

Police enforce the former, SOS enforce the latter
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AMKestrel

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2008, 12:57:08 PM »

Solicitation is the act of offering services/goods or trying to get services/goods.

A "glomp me" sign is sollicitation.
"Glomps" have no commercial value.  Also, the legal definition of "solicitation" deals explicitly with crimes or sex or money.  Glomps aren't sex, they're not crimes, and a sign saying "glomp me" doesn't ask for money.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/solicitation-lawyers.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation


However, per section 647.6(a) of the California Penal Code, if you attempt to glomp someone under the age of 18 (even unsuccessfully), and they find the attempt to be annoying, you may face a fine of up to $5000 and up to a year in prison:
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/647.6.html

It doesn't have to be related to sex or money to be a crime.  With SJPD on site, you attempt glomps at your own risk.  ^_^;

K.

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heeroyuy135

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2008, 01:13:29 PM »

Airsoft = bad. Someone walked into the con with a replica M16 with only an orange tip. He was immediately asked to put it away. If viewed upon by a police officer in the wrong angle, that person has the possibility of getting shot......
So what's the difference between that and cosplayers who had their AKs peacebonded by the SOS staff?

Not a whole lot, except that staffers don't necessarily have a monolithic idea on what's acceptable and not acceptable.
Some of the staff told me they were experts and they knew the difference between airsoft and a toy gun...um...

We had a Cop in the SOS room at one point talking to us, and some people came in and wanted their guns peace bonded. We looked at the cop, asked "If you were in a dim/dark area and saw this about 20 feet away, what would happen?"

For some of the weapons that came through, he basically told us if he would draw his gun or not. I thought that was a neat thing to have, a cop nearby.
Always helpful.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 01:25:38 PM by HeeroYuy135 »
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justkitteh

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2008, 01:41:06 PM »


Now... glomping signs? Do you know why they were banned? Because "Pay us money and we will XYZ" is considered prostitution, and far to many people had "pay us to make out" signs and such rather than simply glomp me signs. Personally I think glomping is retarded, you might as well have a tackle me sign. Hugs are fine (so long as everyone showers), there was a cute asian girl walking around asking for hugs, she did it last year of the year before with a sign. I'm sure no one was complaining about her...

So just keep in mind, glomp me signs were banned as part of a crack down on solicitation. Personally I think they crack down should have been only on solicitation, not simply... advertisement? But i'm not really involved in this and could care less.


Like I said, there's a line, and I think it's poorly trained staff why think they are the hammer of God and can demand anything that cross it. No Fanime is not in a position to hire  real security, but they need to step it up in some way... shoot, just add a disclaimer on the back of the badge disclosing that Fanime and the SJCC are not responsible for anything that might happen therein. Obviously that's not enough, but it would allow staff to use a gentle hand, which they should, rather than believe they are a hammer of justice.

I wonder who you are to state this. Unless you are con staff that made the decision, or part of the circle of conventions that discuss on the secret mailing list, and you were one of the original advocators, I don't know how you can claim that as fact over some of the people on this forum...

Anyways. You can put monetary value on a glomp, because it is a service. A service is a service... in which a monetary value can be attached to it(even if that monetary value is free). It'd be like soliciting for a car wash, or asking for donations in front of a store. It's solicitation because you are not associated with the organization, and you are offering/asking for service.

Sorry, but the law will agree with the business over the person holding the sign in this situation on what "solicitation" is... as does the lawyer I just asked to double check. You seemed to miss the over all point of the ban on the signs if you think it was merely to stop solicitation, and you clearly didn't read my first post.

But just to recap... people use the sign as an excuse to act unruly and it causes other problems, like fire hazards.
I was talking more about the "I'll make out with your for $1" signs. ;) I don't think many people would say that hugging, no matter how violent it is, is prostitution... However the unruliness of glomping and the ridiculous things it leads to? One might say glomping is a gateway drug to prostitution *humor*.

Oh, and that's what I was told once upon a time my the higher ups at Fanime... perhaps they weren't the highest ups, or maybe they were just messing around.
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Ayanami Rei First Child

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2008, 02:39:25 PM »

Then why not ban the "Hug Me" t-shirts sold at the dealer's room from being worn at the convention as well? I mean after all they are BOTH trying to solicit people for hugs, except one is made by a store, and one is made by hand. I mean they are both advertising the want of hugs from random people, so I think that STILL shows GREED.

Besides a t-shirt is a t-shirts, NOT a sign. It shouldn't make a difference if the message is written by hand, or pressed on as a logo. To differentiate between the two and to favor the kind that costs over $10...that is WRONG.

I may not agree with the banning of signs, but I can understand it.
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PyronIkari

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2008, 02:56:00 PM »

Because a T-Shirt that is purchased OBVIOUSLY means whatever is written on the T-shirt is exactly how the person wearing the shirt feels and wants to happen correct? Then anyone wearing a shirt from Anchor Blue or the such could be sued for sexual harasssment or a number of anythings. The fact that the person willfully created the t-shirt is very little different than creating a sign and is imposing the action and wanting the action to happen. They're very different instances.

It'd be like... okay. Compare someone with a shirt that says I'm with stupid pointing to the right. And you are standing to their right. Compared to a person holding a sign that says that, and standing next to you. Now if the person hand wrote the shirt. It may not have the same intensity, but it still carries much more weight than someone with a screened t-shirt that says it.

It's basically the mentallity of the person and the reasoning.
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Ayanami Rei First Child

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2008, 03:40:56 PM »

Your reasoning makes them both guilty of the same crime, but that the Logo is okay, because it's less...severe or whatever. They are BOTH solicitation, but apparently hand-writing your solicitation, is evil, but having it as a Logo is okay, because it's not as blatant or something.

That honestly doesn't make you all seem any less evil. ^^; It just made it sound worse. <.<;

I'm not trying to be a jackass, but at the other hand, if I'm being banned from doing something I want to understand why it's for my benefit. So far with the t-shirt it isn't happening...
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PyronIkari

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Re: The con is ruining our fun!
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2008, 03:49:00 PM »

Your reasoning makes them both guilty of the same crime, but that the Logo is okay, because it's less...severe or whatever. They are BOTH solicitation, but apparently hand-writing your solicitation, is evil, but having it as a Logo is okay, because it's not as blatant or something.

That honestly doesn't make you all seem any less evil. ^^; It just made it sound worse. <.<;

I'm not trying to be a jackass, but at the other hand, if I'm being banned from doing something I want to understand why it's for my benefit. So far with the t-shirt it isn't happening...

You totally misread what I said. A T-Shirt is a piece of clothing, or apparel. It has no actual bearing on the wearer, how he thinks, how he feels, or anything like that.  However, a HANDMADE shirt means that he put in the effort to display something that HE WANTED displayed.  Otherwise people would be hit for sexual harassment or for impersonating staff/police etc. Wearing a T-shirt does not mean anything... writing a message on a t-shirt does.

Here's a better example... If I wear a "Kiss me I'm Irish" shirt, no one will take it seriously, run up to me and kiss me. Because it's obviously just a shirt I'm wearing, and it's not like I want/expect people to do that just because I am wearing that shirt. However... if I carry around a sign that says it... Then I AM soliciting because I clearly want people to do it, and have made it apparent I want people to do it by advertising. The same thing with MAKING your own shirt. It's clearly advertising it because you created the shirt with that sole purpose. Purchasing a shirt does not carry that same connotation. People can USE it in that sense, but for the most part, it's still viewed and carried very differently.

Again, refer back to the "kiss me I'm Irish shirt". People might try and use it in that way, but it won't be seen as solicitation or anything, more like an idiot pointing to his shirt.
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