Rock Band, new info; drumkit fails horribly

Started by deepbluevibes, June 15, 2007, 01:33:18 PM

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deepbluevibes

http://www.bemanistyle.com/index.php?news_id=325#comments

"It consists of four pads, a kick pedal and legs for the enire unit to stand on. Think of it as a TV dinner tray stand only cooler

Leftmost pad (red) is your snare drum, everything else doubles as toms and cymbals depending on the song."

Epic fail.

This means there's no hi-hat on your left, or ANYWHERE on the set, which basically takes out one of the fundamentals of drums. This would be like having a guitar controller with just buttons and nothing to strum.

This is also going to make it *extremely* hard to play some songs, because the hi-hat regulates rhythm for not only the drummer but generally everyone in a band environment (in most songs that will be in this game, mainstream rock stuff).

But I mean come on, this should just be common sense. Take out one of the toms, or SOMETHING; the hi-hat NEEDS to be in there.

So this claim then;

"If you play drums in this game on hard or expert, then you're really playing the drums. Apparently you could sit down at a real set and play the same songs."

I find to be pretty much 100% false.
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

Zerocide

well I honestly can't see how they could really expand on the drum kit for the game. Especially given the size of the game from what I've heard. (though I do think there should be a hi ha) It looks like they're putting a ton of effort in the game, But I wonder if enough people will fully take advantage of the game. Given it's probably going to cost more then the average game for just one controller for one portion of the game; let alone all controllers for all games. I'm also wondering what the difficulty of the game will be like.
Check 1

M

Quote from: "Zerocide"well I honestly can't see how they could really expand on the drum kit for the game. Especially given the size of the game from what I've heard. (though I do think there should be a hi ha) It looks like they're putting a ton of effort in the game, But I wonder if enough people will fully take advantage of the game. Given it's probably going to cost more then the average game for just one controller for one portion of the game; let alone all controllers for all games. I'm also wondering what the difficulty of the game will be like.
Agreed. If they're claiming that you could sit down at a real set and play the same song, the difficulty must be as hard or slightly less hard than the actual song.

As for the hi-hat thing, I'm sure that Harmonix and EA aren't dumb enough to ignore that. I'm assuming that the person being interviewed just said something wrong or maybe there's something that we didn't see.
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deepbluevibes

Quote from: "MPLe"
Quote from: "Zerocide"well I honestly can't see how they could really expand on the drum kit for the game. Especially given the size of the game from what I've heard. (though I do think there should be a hi ha) It looks like they're putting a ton of effort in the game, But I wonder if enough people will fully take advantage of the game. Given it's probably going to cost more then the average game for just one controller for one portion of the game; let alone all controllers for all games. I'm also wondering what the difficulty of the game will be like.
Agreed. If they're claiming that you could sit down at a real set and play the same song, the difficulty must be as hard or slightly less hard than the actual song.

As for the hi-hat thing, I'm sure that Harmonix and EA aren't dumb enough to ignore that. I'm assuming that the person being interviewed just said something wrong or maybe there's something that we didn't see.

Harmonix I would give enough credit to, that they would in fact not be this dumb.

EA on the other hand... after absolutely ruining Def Jam: Icon, I dunno... Boom Boom Rocket was pretty good but that's just a simple Xboxlive game.
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

alkaline


deepbluevibes

Quote from: "alkaline"This thread..

is epic fail.

How so? You think the drumset will actually be good without a hi-hat or something else causes it to fail?
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

gmontem

I think I'll pass and wait for the much improved sequel, "High School Band".  I can't wait to play the flute in that one!
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M

Quote from: "deepbluevibes"Harmonix I would give enough credit to, that they would in fact not be this dumb.

EA on the other hand... after absolutely ruining Def Jam: Icon, I dunno... Boom Boom Rocket was pretty good but that's just a simple Xboxlive game.
Def Jam series != Music Games.

*shrugs* I think it's funny how so many people are on the "no hi-hat?!" bandwagon when there's not a single trace of anyone saying that there wouldn't be a hi-hat on that article. Honestly, you can trash EA all you want but I think that they're smart enough to remember to put the hi-hat on the drum part of the game.
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deepbluevibes

Quote from: "MPLe"
Quote from: "deepbluevibes"Harmonix I would give enough credit to, that they would in fact not be this dumb.

EA on the other hand... after absolutely ruining Def Jam: Icon, I dunno... Boom Boom Rocket was pretty good but that's just a simple Xboxlive game.
Def Jam series != Music Games.

*shrugs* I think it's funny how so many people are on the "no hi-hat?!" bandwagon when there's not a single trace of anyone saying that there wouldn't be a hi-hat on that article. Honestly, you can trash EA all you want but I think that they're smart enough to remember to put the hi-hat on the drum part of the game.

Yes, there is a trace of it.

QuoteIt consists of four pads, a kick pedal and legs for the enire unit to stand on.

It also states the purpose of each drum;

QuoteLeftmost pad (red) is your snare drum, everything else doubles as toms and cymbals depending on the song

Thus, the hi-hat is never mentioned, and all four drum-pads have their purpose laid out already.

Adding into that, you could argue that the hi-hat may be a seperate thing, or not in the shape of a drum-pad, but why make a drumpad a cymbal, and then have a seperate shape/thing for the hi-hat?

And yeah, I know Icon isn't a music game, but I mean, you REALLY have to try hard to screw up Icon. You had the game laid out for you with FFNY, and they totally just destroy the game. So if they get a concept here that Harmonix has done, and decide to put thier own "spin" on things...
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

alkaline

Rock Band != DrumMania

Stop crying. It's not like you or your kind wanted to like this game in the first place.

deepbluevibes

Quote from: "alkaline"Rock Band != DrumMania

Stop crying. It's not like you or your kind wanted to like this game in the first place.

Um, wow, good job assuming *A LOT*.

I've been BEGGING for an AMERICAN drum simulator for YEARS.

Drums are the one instrument that i don't want to have to play foreign music on, mostly because a lot more american (or at least, non-japanese) rock music... really "rocks out".

I mean, every single hard song in a drummania mix (minus maybe, three or four songs) is either a techno-ish rock song or a classical song.

I want to be able to play some Devin Townsend, Rhapsody, Trivium, Porcupine Tree, SOMETHING with not only lyrics I can understand, but that is less "techno rock" or "classical" kind of stuff, not to mention just songs i'm more familiar with.

So yeah, really, I never once said that Rock Band was supposed to fill Drummania's shoes, nor did I say that I didn't want Rock Band, in fact, as i've said before, I would LOVE to have an american drum-simulator game.

And no, drumscape doesn't count; that's not even a game.

So yeah, thanks for assuming, but no.

P.S. "my kind"? I've been out of the bemani "clique" for years now. The most I ever do is go to SVGL maybe once every two months to play a bit of Drummania, and use my Blueshark at home for exercise.

The only reason I go to bemanistyle *IS* for the front page news, trying to find out more about Rock Band, because i'm really anticipating it.

I've stopped posting on literally almost all bemani boards; the only ones i've posted on in the past two months have been ITGfreak (because we got an ITG machine in modesto, only posting to one thread there) and Aaron in Japan (for simfiles because as I said, i use my blueshark at home for exercise.)
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

M

Quote from: "deepbluevibes"Cut to not be a long post
Saying "four pads" isn't a trace of "no hi-hat".

QuoteLeftmost pad (red) is your snare drum, everything else doubles as toms and cymbals depending on the song
I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that one of the "cymbals" could be the hi-hat. I'm sure that you are aware that the hi-hat is a cymbal type right?

Sidenote: You go to Bemanistyle for Rock Band news? LOL!
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deepbluevibes

Quote from: "MPLe"
I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that one of the "cymbals" could be the hi-hat. I'm sure that you are aware that the hi-hat is a cymbal type right?

Having the hi-hat on the right of you pretty much is going to destroy 99% of drummers, and it certainly won't be able to hold up to the claim of "you could play these in real life afterwards". It's taught conventionally and even unconventially sometimes that the hi-hat's on the left of the drumset, unless you're left-handed.

Adding into that, even if by some idiotic means one of the pads doubled as a hi-hat, that would mean that pad is pretty much out of commission (since the hi-hat needs to be tapped constantly in most songs that'll be on this game, during most of the song), which would leave us with one tom, one cymbal, and one snare, and seeing as they said the three right ones are pretty much able to be thrown around.

Thinking about it, that's really stupid. If they do something like a three-tom roll from highest to lowest, and then suddenly have a cymbal roll on the first "tom" you just hit, not only is that going to be confusing as hell, it DEFINITELY won't stand up to the claim of "you could play this in real life".

Also, you literally contradicted yourself in your own post.

First you say "Four pads isn't a trace of no hi-hat", then the quote directly underneath it is you acknowledging that there is no description of said hi-hat in what was in the article, and all four pads are already assigned "jobs" so to speak.

QuoteSidenote: You go to Bemanistyle for Rock Band news? LOL!

And where else should I go? I don't know of anywhere else, as I said before, i left the bemani community (hell, the video game community) long ago.
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

PyronIkari

PSSST: On drums... there is a hi-hat on the left and the right side.

JUST TO MAKE SURE...

:::walks into my roommates room:::

Yeah... Hi-hat on both sides. it's more important that the Snare be on the left side, of right handed players. Realistically though, a real drum set should be symmetrical... as a player should be using both hands to play each drum where appropriate. Same reason why real drummers use a double base, not no pussy ass single bass shit.

Tony

I've never heard of that before... must be a more... virtuoso type setup.

Obviously, the only solution is to place sensors on a real drum kit and base a game off of THAT!
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deepbluevibes

Quote from: "PyronIkari"PSSST: On drums... there is a hi-hat on the left and the right side.

JUST TO MAKE SURE...

:::walks into my roommates room:::

Yeah... Hi-hat on both sides. it's more important that the Snare be on the left side, of right handed players. Realistically though, a real drum set should be symmetrical... as a player should be using both hands to play each drum where appropriate. Same reason why real drummers use a double base, not no pussy ass single bass shit.

I have a double-bass pedal also, but i've rarely seen a hi-hat on the left AND right side on most 5-piece sets, if at all.

The ride cymbal's on the right, sure, or maybe a splash cymbal, but a hi-hat w/a pedal or stand on both sides?
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

M

Quote from: "deepbluevibes"Also, you literally contradicted yourself in your own post.

First you say "Four pads isn't a trace of no hi-hat", then the quote directly underneath it is you acknowledging that there is no description of said hi-hat in what was in the article, and all four pads are already assigned "jobs" so to speak.
I also said that one of the "cymbals" could be a hi-hat. So I'm pointing out that while he didn't say where the hi-hat is, we could assume that one of the pads used for "toms" or "cymbals" could be the hi-hat (as the hi-hat is a cymbal type).

Oh wait. A new challenger appears! One detail that was left out of the original article... "...although when needed the yellow will almost always double as the high hat..." Note that the kit isn't finalized so if you're able to move the yellow button above the red one, that would make it really close to how an actual "right-handed" drum kit is.

This is where I laugh at everyone that was/is on the "OMG EA IS SO STUPID FOR NOT INCLUDING HIHAT!" bandwagon. ;)
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deepbluevibes

Quote from: MPLe
Quote from: "deepbluevibes"
Oh wait. A new challenger appears! One detail that was left out of the original article... "...although when needed the yellow will almost always double as the high hat..." Note that the kit isn't finalized so if you're able to move the yellow button above the red one, that would make it really close to how an actual "right-handed" drum kit is.

This is where I laugh at everyone that was/is on the "OMG EA IS SO STUPID FOR NOT INCLUDING HIHAT!" bandwagon. ;)

The hi-hat is nowhere near a "cymbal type". The cymbals are loud, and almost never used to keep the beat of the song. The hi-hat has a pedal usually, and is usually used to keep the beat of the song.

I saw the yellow on there; if it "doubles" as a hi-hat, that's still stupid. No real drumkit would have a tom "double" as a hi-hat, the hi-hat has it's own, permanent locked place.

I'm still going to get this and try it, but i really don't have much hope for it if the design stays that way; having a pad/button do something else in the middle of a song is really quite akward.
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.

M

Quote from: "deepbluevibes"The hi-hat is nowhere near a "cymbal type". The cymbals are loud, and almost never used to keep the beat of the song. The hi-hat has a pedal usually, and is usually used to keep the beat of the song.

Wrong again. The hi-hat is a type of cymbal... I guess they don't teach you that on Drummania/Drumscape.
http://www.drumjunction.com/cymbal_types.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-hat
I know teachers that would have thrown you out of class for saying something like that.

[Edit: A 'cymbal' isn't determined by what noise is made when you hit on it. They "consist of thin, normally round plates of various cymbal alloys" and aren't always loud (I've played jazz songs that have required me to play the ride cymbal really softly).]
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deepbluevibes

Quote from: "MPLe"
Quote from: "deepbluevibes"The hi-hat is nowhere near a "cymbal type". The cymbals are loud, and almost never used to keep the beat of the song. The hi-hat has a pedal usually, and is usually used to keep the beat of the song.

Wrong again. The hi-hat is a type of cymbal... I guess they don't teach you that on Drummania/Drumscape.
http://www.drumjunction.com/cymbal_types.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-hat
I know teachers that would have thrown you out of class for saying something like that.

[Edit: A 'cymbal' isn't determined by what noise is made when you hit on it. They "consist of thin, normally round plates of various cymbal alloys" and aren't always loud (I've played jazz songs that have required me to play the ride cymbal really softly).]

Hi-hat = two "cymbals", connected by a pole, and a pedal at the bottom that allow them to collide with each other or be held in place.

Cymbal = one single "cymbal" that, in MOST music (not counting jazz, not counting heavy metal) you only hit at some points during the music, and is NOT used to keep the beat most of the time.

there is a massive difference. Whether they're called that same thing in class, or in theory, or on a website, really does not matter to me. In playing drums, the simple fact is, 99% of the time in MOST MUSIC (read; all of the music that will be on this game, most likely), you do not keep the beat with the "cymbals", you keep it with the "hi-hat", and the hi-hat has a lot more versatility than a cymbal does due to the hi-hat having a pedal.

Adding into that, I hate drumscape, played it once, and do not play it at all.

My main point is, the game says "you can sit down at a drumset and play these tracks if you can play them on expert", and if you have four drumpads, with a constantly changing hi-hat/tom/cymbal, over three different drums, with your hi-hat on your right side (which as was mentioned before, is on probably less than 10% of drumsets) this claim is FALSE.

Not going to argue my point anymore; Harmonix/EA just needs to add one more drumpad. Anything less is just pointless, a waste of time, and will not be anywhere *near* a realistic drum experience that they're touting.
Stupidest post/most uninformed person award goes to;

Quote from: PyronIkari on October 28, 2007, 08:10:30 AM
In DM the high hot also acts as the high tom, the open hat, the closed hat.

p.s. it never does that.