The MOE thread!

[SohmaYuki]

As non-aggressive as I would like to put it: "what would you call this then?" of course, that sounds like taking an offensive position. I am merely curios on your input of what we could call something like this thread other than the blunt stating of 'weekly appreciation of things we like in some girls'.  Just honest curiosity.

Be aggressive, I honestly don't care. I care more about the hypocrisy that was involved in some of the replies. As long as a point is delivered, I personally don't care how it's delivered. Anyways...

This thread has jumped subject matters. At first it started as moe, then became favorite character type, then became... favorite character of each type.

So the latest of the discussions title would be "Favorite character type".

For the most part, the expansion of perspective in moe is always appreciated, not so much the otaku one, as I can't really remember when the discussion....or use of the word for that matter...came up with this specific group. I think those points are for copying (not saying saving because that'd be aimed at you, copying is for the other board member to have) and using on the people who really need them.

Oh, I brought up the word as an example of another word that people misuse regularly and instead of acknowledging misuse, defend their right to misuse it.

I'm not one to be offended, so you don't need to be politically correct, or even nice to me. Just say what you want to say, it's easier that way(not an attack or anything, I'm just stating it in general).

[SuperKawaiiNeko]

Its not that I outright disagree with you. I do agree with you...to a point. Which is why I dont use a lot of words like otaku. But we're looking at the word(s?) from two different perspectives. Ive thought of a better way to state my point, though.

Otaku, in the context in use for this discussion, is no longer a japanese word. It is now an english slang. Yes, it is spelled and pronounced the same as a japanese word. Yes, it has a similer meaning. Yes, its origins can be traced to the aformentioned japanese word. But it has been assimilated into the culture of the american anime fan scene. This is the nature of language in general, and english in particular.

[SohmaYuki]

Its not that I outright disagree with you. I do agree with you...to a point. Which is why I dont use a lot of words like otaku. But we're looking at the word(s?) from two different perspectives. Ive thought of a better way to state my point, though.

Otaku, in the context in use for this discussion, is no longer a japanese word. It is now an english slang. Yes, it is spelled and pronounced the same as a japanese word. Yes, it has a similer meaning. Yes, its origins can be traced to the aformentioned japanese word. But it has been assimilated into the culture of the american anime fan scene. This is the nature of language in general, and english in particular.

It only exists in the "american anime fan scene" as a misinterpretation that people don't realize exists. Half the people that use the word otaku do not say it is "an American adopted slang word" they say it's a Japanese word that means nerd or geek.

Which is a show of their ignorance on the subject of the matter. People only switch to the "Well language changes and English adopted the word" arguement AFTER they have been shown that otaku doesn't mean what they think it does in Japanese. They don't even care about the truth or the realistic point of the arguement, they only care about winning the arguement and defending their right to use the word.

After knowing the truth of the word, why would you want to honestly use it still? I have yet to here a real answer on the subject. People don't really understand word origins and what not and why they exist and how they got to what they are now(including slang). Words like "geek" and "nerd" started off as an insult *OUT OF JEALOUSY*. Dumber(for lack of a better word) kids called smarter kids geeks and nerds as an insult because they weren't as smart.

Otaku wasn't made out of jealousy, it was used as a realistic description. Basic understanding of the word. There are other reasons, but this is the most common and accepted.

otaku translates to "house". To be an "otaku" it means that you live your house because your hobby exists there. You'd rather spend time with your hobby than anything else, and that is the most important thing to you. Sure, you go to work, or school, because you have to do these things... but any actual time you can freely choose what to do, you spend with your hobby.

Why do people in the US use it at all though? Because, *it's Japanese*. It's the same reason why people obsess over pocky. You can give me all these bullshit reasons like "well it tastes good and it's cheap" but we all know those are facades. The real reason is because it is Japanese and publicized to be Japanese. I've been eating Pocky ever since I moved to California when I was 3. So I think it's quite stupid for people to make such a big deal out of it, because in the end, it's just a crappy cheap food snack.

So people learn the origins of otaku, and then they try to make up reasons so they "don't look wrong". They feel as if they're being attacked when someone tells them that "you know, otaku is a bad thing to call yourself"(and I know I don't make it any less of an attack when *I* say it the way I do). So instead of being realistic and learning, or accepting truth, they argue and find any loop whole or excuse they can to justify the use of the word.

I'm not completely fluent in Japanese, but I know a good amount, and I choose not to use it unless it's for actual practice with my Japanese friends who can help me improve, or when the person does not speak English and I am trying to communicate the best I can with them. Almost all of my friends have said something about this to me, about how they're glad about it, because I don't pretend to be Japanese, because it's annoying to them to hear random people spouting out random Japanese words whenever they can. Your average anime fan knows about 5 words of Japanese over the basic words that most people have heard(like... sushi... or sashimi).

Baka
Kawaii
Neko
Hai
Sugoi

Sure there's some words that can be added to that list, but that's the general 5 that most anime fans know. It's rather irritating to Japanese speakers(and even to myself) when they choose to use those 5 words whenever they can. "He's so kawaii". THere's no reason for you to say kawaii other than to think you're cool by using one of the 5 Japanese words you know. It's even worse when they don't understand phoenetics. I hear so many variations of it like "He's so KAH WAI" or "He's so Kuh wai ee"(which sounds more like 怖ã,,). About 5 years ago I'd used to go up to people that I overheard saying stuff like that, and start speaking to them in Japanese. They would look at me weird, and then say something like "Oh I don't know Japanese". So I'd say "then why the f__k are you saying 可æ,,›ã,, for, and mispronouncing it horribly at that?" Of course they'd get pissed off at started shouting nonsense at me like "IT DOESN'T MATTER DOES IT? I WILL SAY WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT!" Which I found so ironic.

To me, if you're going to say you like Japanese culture, and that you support things like anime and manga, the least you can do is respect the culture and the language. Using Japanese whenever you get the chance is in a sense making fun of the culture. Arguing that you have a right to use a word however you want to, is also looking down upon the culture and its history. I like Japanese culture, not just the anime, and the manga, and the fandom stuff like that. It irritates me when I see others doing things like this, and I'm not even Japanese. Almost all of my Japanese friends rant about it all the time, and even teachers that are JP have talked to me about it before and how they don't like how some people act like they are, or know all about Japanese culture because they watch anime or read manga.

As an outsider that is interested in the culture, the least we should be is respectful to the culture.

EDIT: oh I completely forgot about this until just now. Last night a friend of mine and the conversation led to Okinawa. She loves Okinawa, as she surfs, and she loves the food and landscape and everything there. But she was reading this forum about how someone wanted to go to Okinawa to play with the cats and eat "the legendary sata andagi" because he's seen azumanga daioh. He stated that he wanted to buy some and just shout "SATA ANDAGI!" over and over again with his friends. She felt offended and just appaulled at how stupid he was acting. That guy is just cheapening Okinawa by assuming it is rolled up into a convenient ball of playing with cats(that are super endangered, only a few hundred of them left... at best) and eating fried sweet bread.

Japanese people are very polite and will not tell you that you offend them at all. So even if you ask them, very few of them will ever tell you that they're offended or that something is offensive.

[Spiritsnare]

To quell all the "English-adopted" remarks: I did a bit of research, and apparently, Dictionary.com turns up an entry for otaku in Webster's New Millenium Dictionary of English. However, the definition covered is not the 'fan scene' one -- e.g. I'm a casual fan, and I do have a life -- but the original Japanese: e.g. I'm a hikikomori who humps dakimakura*.

Take that as you will.

Last night a friend of mine and the conversation led to Okinawa. She loves kinawa, as she surfs, and she loves the food and landscape and everything there. But she was reading this forum about how someone wanted to go to Okinawa to play with the cats and eat "the legendary sata andagi" because he's seen azumanga daioh. He stated that he wanted to buy some and just shout "SATA ANDAGI!" over and over again with his friends. She felt offended and just appaulled at how stupid he was acting. That guy is just cheapening Okinawa by assuming it is rolled up into a convenient ball of playing with cats(that are super endangered, only a few hundred of them left... at best) and eating fried sweet bread.

o.O;

Is your friend sure the person in question wasn't joking (as inferenced by the 'legendary' sata andagi)? That's pretty damn shallow otherwise.

[zoupzuop2]

Ummm, aheheh... returning to the point!

Actually, only slightly related...

...I'm trying to write a song that generally hints at the facets of Moé, the ups and downs, the controversial bits, the healthy and unhealthy. Or, in plainer English, I'm exploring it as a whole, not just the good or the bad. Are there some things I should generally know about the whole Moé idea that would make their exclusion a faux pau (sp?)? I know a FEW things about it, such as:

*It's been defined as the "warm feelings" one gets for a 2-dimensional (or otherwise human-generated) character that is not directly, flesh-based of this world. (I.E, Captain Kirk would be the moé in question; William Shatner would not. Thanks to gmontem for the inspiration of this example)
*There are 22,XXX variations (somewhere in the 22 thousands) of moé, with some FAR more prominent than others.
*Some moé are exclusive to "one per character"; others, combos of 3-5 are common (consider Mikuru-chan; maid, glasses (sometimes), bunny suit, innocence... a veritable moé chameleon)

Anything I should know that would make the song more complete?

[SuperKawaiiNeko]

Im not going to quote your post because Im lazy and dont feel like it. Sorry?


Ive already established that I dont use the word otaku (or many other japanese words, for that matter) "correctly" or otherwise, and that I already knew the "real" meaning before this conversation even started...so I dont see how my using the "Well language changes and English adopted the word" argument was a result of suddenly learning "that otaku doesn't mean what they think it does in Japanese."


As for your friend and the mystery poster...I dont really think she's being quite fair. Now, I didnt read this guy's post, nor was I privvy to your conversation with your friend, but I dont think its fair to say that this guy thinks that the only good things about Okinawa are sata andagi and iriomote. Thats "why" he wants to go. Thats what piqued his interest and sparked the desire. That doesnt necessarily mean thats the only thing he's interested. And even if it did, that doesnt mean that he wouldnt appreciate anything else once he got there.

I would very much like to visit Japan. When people ask me why, I genereally tell them I want to eat taiyaki and authentic ramen, and spend some quality time in Akihabara.

Does this mean that I dont give a crap about anything else? The hell it does! Ive seen a lot of pictures, and I think Japan is a beautiful country. I want to see the mountains and the forests. I want to see the shrines and the city lights. I would very much like to see some no or kabuki (yes, even if I cant fully understand them =P) But guess what? I like to eat and watch anime and play video games. I want to go to akihabara and eat some god damn taiyaki.

But that doesnt mean Im not interested in anything else, and it CERTAINLY doesnt mean Im unable to appreciate it.

[SohmaYuki]

Is your friend sure the person in question wasn't joking (as inferenced by the 'legendary' sata andagi)? That's pretty damn shallow otherwise.

He didn't even know what sata andagi was.

Ive already established that I dont use the word otaku (or many other japanese words, for that matter) "correctly" or otherwise, and that I already knew the "real" meaning before this conversation even started...so I dont see how my using the "Well language changes and English adopted the word" argument was a result of suddenly learning "that otaku doesn't mean what they think it does in Japanese."

Simple, because you feel that you have to look out for the majority, and the community. It isn't about feeling attacked, but you feel your community is being attacked, so the reasoning is the same. I could easilly point at something else and make the same claim. HI, WHY IS YOUR NICK "SUPERKAWAIINEKO", it's retarded to use Japanese for no reason. Does the shift point change anything? Not at all, because to you it wasn't about the individual. You would retort no matter what, or who i pointed out as being something that shouldn't be done, because you believe I have no right to say any of this, nor anything at all, because I am an outsider of this community. Therefore I should not say anything that could be seen in a negative light.

I would very much like to visit Japan. When people ask me why, I genereally tell them I want to eat taiyaki and authentic ramen, and spend some quality time in Akihabara.

Does this mean that I dont give a crap about anything else? The hell it does! Ive seen a lot of pictures, and I think Japan is a beautiful country. I want to see the mountains and the forests. I want to see the shrines and the city lights. I would very much like to see some no or kabuki (yes, even if I cant fully understand them =P) But guess what? I like to eat and watch anime and play video games. I want to go to akihabara and eat some god damn taiyaki.

But that doesnt mean Im not interested in anything else, and it CERTAINLY doesnt mean Im unable to appreciate it.

I can get authentic Ramen in the states. I know quite a few really good ramen places in California, New York, and Seattle. But question... what kind of ramen? Ramen varries according to region... So authentic Ramen varries according to where you go.

Taiyaki... you can get at almost any Japanese bakery, and a lot of restaurants. It's not a complicated thing to make you know.

Regardless if you want to see other things, regardless if you will appreciate other things. The reasonings you are giving, are the reasonings that you give to represent what you want to see in that trip, which represents what you want to see in that culture. By stating, taiyaki, and ramen... you are stating that the most important reasons for you to go are... a common piece pastry, and a low budget food that people eat because it's quick/cheap/and abundant. Akihbara is a legit destination point, but everything else you said cheapens the worth of the culture.

It's the equivalent to "I want to go to America to eat donuts, and fried chicken".

Anything I should know that would make the song more complete?

Real things can be moe.


Yuko Ogura is quite moe...

Also, eh I don't have any pics of it but, like when a girlfriend or something makes a really poutty cute face or something...that can be moe.

How the hell can you feel "moe" from William Shatner... or Captain Kirk... that just, doesn't make sense to me o_0?

[Chun]

Yuko Ogura is quite moe...

Oh man... "onna no ko otoko no ko" melted my brain after I saw it.

~Chun

[-zoxan-]

@SohmaYuki

Say if you see something, and for some reason you just feel like cuddling and huggling it instantly. That could be moe. Is that what you are trying to convey?

(pssst, you can be moe for Captain Kirk if you are gay. No, I'm not kidding either)

[zoupzuop2]

How the hell can you feel "moe" from William Shatner... or Captain Kirk... that just, doesn't make sense to me o_0?

Uhh, I was just trying to make a double-whammie: First one, distinguishing a character from an actor/actress (moé is warm feelings for a character, in most cases, or so I understand... my grasp is very weak on it, thus my usual avoidance of addressing it all too often); the other, to make a joking reference to gmontem's avatar.

I suppose now isn't a good time to be asking questions about moé either, I'd prefer not to stir up the pot right now. (Good gravy, there seems to be a LOT of dissent in the boards these days...)

[Chun]

@SohmaYuki

Say if you see something, and for some reason you just feel like cuddling and huggling it instantly.

That's a contradiction of sorts. If something is moe to the "true otaku", they find that touching it with their own fingers would be to desecrate it in cases.

Sometimes when something is moe, it should be, and is regarded as, untouchable. This is another connotation, and also why these guys don't feel up the maids in the cafes of Akihabara.

~Chun

[-zoxan-]

Note how I said "feel like". They don't actually do it :P

Something to chew upon

[Spiritsnare]

Actually, the best quote about moe I think should be this little ditty, excerpted from Moetry for You (and featured prominently on the Heisei Democracy definition of moe):

NOTE: DO NOT TAKE IT SO SERIOUS.

[Chun]

B-but...

MOE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

~Chun

[Kazuko]

x: god stop the fighting before i explode into laughter

Sohma has points I completely agree with like the basis of americans knowing thoes words because its Japanese x: hell I adore Japanese culture not just because of hello kitty, or Anime and manga. its because of a culture so unique~ I have been to Japan and walked  the streets of Tokyo and Shizuoka-Shimizu i have done Taiko and seen Kabuki, enjoyed tea ceremonies while most americans that i was with found it so boring and hated the green tea powder. x: i denno but Yuki I sometimes think you are a part of me that died off somewhere or the intelectual friend i never had?

Personally i think its moe when a boy makes puppy noises or acts like a little boy to get attention from his girlfriend

D: like my boyfriend does

[Spiritsnare]

B-but...

MOE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Touché. XD

[SuperKawaiiNeko]

Moe: Srs Bsns

[Spiritsnare]

Anyhow, a new week has risen:

26. Child Prodigies

Tsubasa: Hatako Kobayashi (Angelic Layer)
Amol: Ed (Cowboy Bebop)
LastElixir: Rebecca "Becky" Miyamoto (Paniponi Dash!)
Sunara: Hotaru Imai (Gakuen Alice)
Spiritsnare: Alice Carroll (ARIA)
pockystix: Chiyo Mihama (Azumanga Daioh)
Chun: Yue Ayase (Negima!)
Richie: Rinna Kazamatsuri (Uchuu no Stellvia)
Ryu: Mei Etoh (Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight!)

[gmontem]

Oh what a bummer that Benicia isn't a child prodigy. ;_;

[pockystix]

.... why are all the ones I know taken?

Hmm.. oh yeah! I'll use Chiyo. O: